Liberals - Is it ok to redistribute your GPA

_

EdsonNascimento wrote:

Then, I guess you should move to China or somewhere that salaries are set (realizing the irony here is that China is actually moving more toward Western free market than not).

It is fair. Fair does not mean equal. I would like to find the person that is providing a service that society highly values that is being undercompensated. I mean, it's nice to make jewlery, but if society doesn't value it, it's not UNfair that you don't get compensated for making it.

Again, the only place that is bastardized is unionized jobs. Places like teaching where tenure is treasured over actual competence.

You can moan all you want that folks are getting paid unfairly. But it's wrong. Again, if you think you're not making enough, you should by all means go into your bosses office and tell him so. And he can say no. And you can say, "I quit! I'll find a job that compensates me properly!" And you will (though it may not be any higher than your last job).

I think we forget what the word FAIR means. It is fair that Bill Gates has Billions. We as consumers have given him that because he has provided a good that we valued. Meanwhile, folks that make the chips that helped him get that rich get paid less b/c there are people that will take those jobs at the prices they are paid.

And before we get back into the Paris Hilton argument - her granddaddy earned that money, and he's allowed to "spend" it however he sees fit, including giving it to layabout ancestors.

We're not even talking about the same things. Who ever said anything about set salaries? Who ever said that fair means equal? Not me.

You seem to be confusing how much society values something with how much the guy on the bottom of the totem pole is paid for it. And you seem to be confusing the desperation of exploited & oppressed people with fairness.

There are so many jobs that are undercompensated, despite their values to society, that I don't even know where to begin. But I can't imagine that you don't know this. And jewelry is extremely valuable to society. "Society" pays hundreds and thousands of dollars for this jewelry; it's just that they wrong guy is keeping the money without giving the person who actually provided the jewelry his fair share.

If you want to talk about teachers unions, maybe you should take that up in the education cuts thread.

And when did I ever say I was talking about MY job?? :? Regardless, your idea that people who don't get paid properly can just go somewhere else & get paid properly for the same job is just silly. It's usually the profession that doesn't pay properly, not just one or two employers. And, before you say people should just change professions, think about the people who will need to take their place. We can't just abolish all low-paying professions.

mikepegg44

_ wrote:

mikepegg44 wrote:

well, those people can and should band together and sell the works they have created at a fair of some kind...contacting newspapers or websites to get the word out. It isn't exploitation of someone to act as a middle man...plenty of industries operate that way and it creates more jobs.


"The very wealthy can only get that way through the exploitation of others."

the problem is it is stereotyping the rich...when you simply don't qualify it before people read it to mean that rich business owners can only get that way by exploiting the poor...if you don't think you and others on the board portray the rich as evil pricks that don't earn their wealth then I suggest you re-read a lot of threads about them...It is as okay to think that as it is okay to think that all hispanics are illegal immigrants...sure some are but not all are and the majority aren't.

To really be profitable, you have to sell to tourists, and THE place to sell Native crafts to tourists is Old Town. They could band together all they want and could never buy a shop in Old Town, if any space were to ever even go on sale. They are allowed to sit on the sidewalk & sell, but you have to have a permit and even then only a limited number of people with permits are allowed to be there on any given day. This is determined a week in advance by lottery. But the waiting list for a permit is so long that they actually stopped putting people on it. The people I know who have permits have gotten them because they were passed down through many generations of their families. It's just practically impossible to get a foot in the door here. It's just not as easy as you seem to think it is.


There's nothing wrong with being a middle man - unless you are gouging craftspeople for your own profit. My point is not that middle men are bad; it's that people should be paid fairly and they're not.

You're not paying attention to how I am qualifying things. I have never said anything about all rich people; I have only made generalized statements about obscenely rich people. And maybe there are people who get to be obscenely rich without ever exploiting others, but I can't think of any. Can you?

I get really frustrated when people tell me what I think when I just told them they're mistaken. Pretty sure I know more about what I think than you do. I'm sorry if you have misinterpreted my comments.

Again, it's the system I have a problem with... and those who support it... and those who talk shit about people with less money. It just so happens that most of the people who talk shit about people with less money have more money.

then it is an industry not worth tapping into. Obivously the market is FLOODED...that isn't the fault of the shop owner. Sorry if it seems callous but it is the way it is...If I go to a business owner and sell them something they have a hundred of already I won't get as good of a price as when there is a waiting list for what I have to offer. Why don't the workers unionize and only sell to people who give them good prices? why don't they all band together and simply sell their goods on consignment with those that have the permits to sell...I know it isn't easy but there are solutions and they will take some risk for sure...I don't pretend to know what it is like to be in that situation, but I do know that if I have a marketable skill it is up to me to utilize it to its fullest. Again, I don't know their life situation, but I think people here in the united states are really only exploited if they let themselves be...at least that is how I think

How can you mistinterpret "The very wealthy can only get that way through the exploitation of others."
and "Therefore, much of the money in very rich people's bank accounts actually belongs (by right, if not ownership) to the poor" those things portray people as selfish at best and evil at worst...I am not telling you what you think, I am telling you how it is perceived and I think I know more about how I perceive statements than you do
putting very in it is rather subjective not objective...to me that doesn't necessarily mean someone who makes a billion or more, but that might be what it means to you...I think we may have a different idea of what it is meant to exploit someone...that is ok, we can disagree

EdsonNascimento

_ wrote:

To really be profitable, you have to sell to tourists, and THE place to sell Native crafts to tourists is Old Town. They could band together all they want and could never buy a shop in Old Town, if any space were to ever even go on sale. They are allowed to sit on the sidewalk & sell, but you have to have a permit and even then only a limited number of people with permits are allowed to be there on any given day. This is determined a week in advance by lottery. But the waiting list for a permit is so long that they actually stopped putting people on it. The people I know who have permits have gotten them because they were passed down through many generations of their families. It's just practically impossible to get a foot in the door here. It's just not as easy as you seem to think it is.

There's nothing wrong with being a middle man - unless you are gouging craftspeople for your own profit. My point is not that middle men are bad; it's that people should be paid fairly and they're not.

You're not paying attention to how I am qualifying things. I have never said anything about all rich people; I have only made generalized statements about obscenely rich people. And maybe there are people who get to be obscenely rich without ever exploiting others, but I can't think of any. Can you?

I get really frustrated when people tell me what I think when I just told them they're mistaken. Pretty sure I know more about what I think than you do. I'm sorry if you have misinterpreted my comments.

Again, it's the system I have a problem with... and those who support it... and those who talk shit about people with less money. It just so happens that most of the people who talk shit about people with less money have more money.

So, are you suggesting that area just let anyone sell on the street? What's the solution?

Consumers can band together and not buy. Or, the producers can realize how much is being made off their stuff and sell it to the stores for more. OR get themselves a better deal. Or, hire someone to negotiate on their behalf that knows how to get them a better deal. Or, make a commodity that people will search out.

There's nothing unfair about any of that. In this country you are free to do any and all of that.

EdsonNascimento

_ wrote:

We're not even talking about the same things. Who ever said anything about set salaries? Who ever said that fair means equal? Not me.

You seem to be confusing how much society values something with how much the guy on the bottom of the totem pole is paid for it. And you seem to be confusing the desperation of exploited & oppressed people with fairness.

There are so many jobs that are undercompensated, despite their values to society, that I don't even know where to begin. But I can't imagine that you don't know this. And jewelry is extremely valuable to society. "Society" pays hundreds and thousands of dollars for this jewelry; it's just that they wrong guy is keeping the money without giving the person who actually provided the jewelry his fair share.

If you want to talk about teachers unions, maybe you should take that up in the education cuts thread.

And when did I ever say I was talking about MY job?? :? Regardless, your idea that people who don't get paid properly can just go somewhere else & get paid properly for the same job is just silly. It's usually the profession that doesn't pay properly, not just one or two employers. And, before you say people should just change professions, think about the people who will need to take their place. We can't just abolish all low-paying professions.

Please name one such job that is not compensated properly. Your jewlery example is a joke. If the jewlery they made was so valuable, they'd get what's coming to them. It's a luxury. And some jewlery is purchased for a very high price. But, that is jewlery people prize. And the jewler who cuts the diamond just right gets his fair share. It's fun to make jewlery. My kids do it every summer at camp. Apparently, they aren't being compensated properly.

BTW, when folks give examples like go talk to your boss, it is an example and not talking about YOU specifically. It's a general You that most folks understand. I think I'm starting to see the issue a bit clearer.

_

Jason P wrote:

_ wrote:

You remind me of a common scenario around here. Native artists make jewelry, et cetera for a living, but then, after all their hours of labor, must often sell it to tourist shops for very little profit because their ability to sell directly to the public is very limited. The shops sell the Natives' craftwork at, literally, like a 1000% mark-up and they get all the profit. The Native people in this scenario are dirt poor, worse than most people in this country could even imagine, while the store owners are very wealthy. But the Natives were the ones who had 100 of the creativity to make the jewelry & did 85% of the work.

Why don't the artists open their own stores or sell their products over the internet? Are they under contract by these shops?

It seems to me that they have a big opportunity to expand their business and improve their quality of life. I understand the overhead cost of a shop may be too much to bear at first, but someone should be working with them on how to sell items on Amazon and Ebay. Cut the middle-man out and sell art at half the price of the shops while still making 500% mark-up.

I see your point and it's a good one. But I'm actually not anti-middle-man; I'm just against the middle men ripping people off (and then saying they shouldn't have to contribute to their government assistance because if they need that they must just be lazy).

Many Native people need middle men in town because they live on the reservation. They can't open a shop on the rez because hardly anyone goes there. They can't open online shops because they often don't have internet access. And they often can't/shouldn't move away from the rez because that's where their families & land & culture are, plus they are expected to care for their elders.

As for those who live here, I think the biggest problem is that tourists want to buy from Old Town & the artists can't get in.

_

mikepegg44 wrote:

then it is an industry not worth tapping into. Obivously the market is FLOODED...that isn't the fault of the shop owner. Sorry if it seems callous but it is the way it is...If I go to a business owner and sell them something they have a hundred of already I won't get as good of a price as when there is a waiting list for what I have to offer. Why don't the workers unionize and only sell to people who give them good prices? why don't they all band together and simply sell their goods on consignment with those that have the permits to sell...I know it isn't easy but there are solutions and they will take some risk for sure...I don't pretend to know what it is like to be in that situation, but I do know that if I have a marketable skill it is up to me to utilize it to its fullest. Again, I don't know their life situation, but I think people here in the united states are really only exploited if they let themselves be...at least that is how I think

How can you mistinterpret "The very wealthy can only get that way through the exploitation of others."
and "Therefore, much of the money in very rich people's bank accounts actually belongs (by right, if not ownership) to the poor" those things portray people as selfish at best and evil at worst...I am not telling you what you think, I am telling you how it is perceived and I think I know more about how I perceive statements than you do
putting very in it is rather subjective not objective...to me that doesn't necessarily mean someone who makes a billion or more, but that might be what it means to you...I think we may have a different idea of what it is meant to exploit someone...that is ok, we can disagree

I don't think you ever answered my question about why it's okay for shop owners to pay next-to-nothing for people's work & then sell it at a 1000% mark-up and keep the profit. How is that right or moral? How is that NOT exploitative? I know, I know, that's how the system works. But my point is that it's a shit system.

Okay, so how about if I say most (and I could've sworn I said "most" in there at some point) people who make $1 billion/year or more make that money by exploiting others? Or what if I even said all of them do? Is that qualified enough for you? Can you disprove this?

_

EdsonNascimento wrote:

And before we get back into the Paris Hilton argument - her granddaddy earned that money, and he's allowed to "spend" it however he sees fit, including giving it to layabout ancestors.

I missed this part before. I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Paris Hilton argument a refutation of someone's belief that all rich people earned their money (as if rich people necessarily work hard & poor people don't)? Sure, her grandfather "earned" the money, but that doesn't make HER any less lazy.

usamamasan1

_ wrote:

I think the biggest problem is

Excessive alcohol consumption

[offensive image removed by Admin]

_

EdsonNascimento wrote:

_ wrote:

To really be profitable, you have to sell to tourists, and THE place to sell Native crafts to tourists is Old Town. They could band together all they want and could never buy a shop in Old Town, if any space were to ever even go on sale. They are allowed to sit on the sidewalk & sell, but you have to have a permit and even then only a limited number of people with permits are allowed to be there on any given day. This is determined a week in advance by lottery. But the waiting list for a permit is so long that they actually stopped putting people on it. The people I know who have permits have gotten them because they were passed down through many generations of their families. It's just practically impossible to get a foot in the door here. It's just not as easy as you seem to think it is.

There's nothing wrong with being a middle man - unless you are gouging craftspeople for your own profit. My point is not that middle men are bad; it's that people should be paid fairly and they're not.

You're not paying attention to how I am qualifying things. I have never said anything about all rich people; I have only made generalized statements about obscenely rich people. And maybe there are people who get to be obscenely rich without ever exploiting others, but I can't think of any. Can you?

I get really frustrated when people tell me what I think when I just told them they're mistaken. Pretty sure I know more about what I think than you do. I'm sorry if you have misinterpreted my comments.

Again, it's the system I have a problem with... and those who support it... and those who talk shit about people with less money. It just so happens that most of the people who talk shit about people with less money have more money.

So, are you suggesting that area just let anyone sell on the street? What's the solution?

Consumers can band together and not buy. Or, the producers can realize how much is being made off their stuff and sell it to the stores for more. OR get themselves a better deal. Or, hire someone to negotiate on their behalf that knows how to get them a better deal. Or, make a commodity that people will search out.

There's nothing unfair about any of that. In this country you are free to do any and all of that.

The solution is for the store owners to pay the producers a share of the profit that is proportionate (or at least more proportionate) to the amount of work they put in to making it. Pretty simple, if not for personal greed.

Consumers can't band together & not buy because they're not educated about the problem. Regardless, maybe people can do those things and maybe they can't - but the point is that they shouldn't have to because they should be getting a fair price already.

I feel like your argument is that because exploitation is legal, it's not exploitation.

_

EdsonNascimento wrote:

_ wrote:

We're not even talking about the same things. Who ever said anything about set salaries? Who ever said that fair means equal? Not me.

You seem to be confusing how much society values something with how much the guy on the bottom of the totem pole is paid for it. And you seem to be confusing the desperation of exploited & oppressed people with fairness.

There are so many jobs that are undercompensated, despite their values to society, that I don't even know where to begin. But I can't imagine that you don't know this. And jewelry is extremely valuable to society. "Society" pays hundreds and thousands of dollars for this jewelry; it's just that they wrong guy is keeping the money without giving the person who actually provided the jewelry his fair share.

If you want to talk about teachers unions, maybe you should take that up in the education cuts thread.

And when did I ever say I was talking about MY job?? :? Regardless, your idea that people who don't get paid properly can just go somewhere else & get paid properly for the same job is just silly. It's usually the profession that doesn't pay properly, not just one or two employers. And, before you say people should just change professions, think about the people who will need to take their place. We can't just abolish all low-paying professions.

Please name one such job that is not compensated properly. Your jewlery example is a joke. If the jewlery they made was so valuable, they'd get what's coming to them. It's a luxury. And some jewlery is purchased for a very high price. But, that is jewlery people prize. And the jewler who cuts the diamond just right gets his fair share. It's fun to make jewlery. My kids do it every summer at camp. Apparently, they aren't being compensated properly.

BTW, when folks give examples like go talk to your boss, it is an example and not talking about YOU specifically. It's a general You that most folks understand. I think I'm starting to see the issue a bit clearer.

Jobs that are not compensated properly: Fast food workers, Wal-Mart employees, factory workers, fruit pickers, etc. I can't believe I even have to list them.

Your comparison of your kids' camp jewelry to authentic Native jewelry is a joke - an offensive one. And how do you not get that I AM TALKING ABOUT THE JEWELRY THAT PEOPLE PRIZE AND PURCHASE FOR A VERY HIGH PRICE?

gimmesometruth27

usamamasan1 wrote:

_ wrote:

I think the biggest problem is

Excessive alcohol consumption

[offensive image removed by Admin]

i thought we were not doing racial stereotypes?

what the fuck is it with all of the stereotyping and racism on this board lately?

JOEJOEJOE

_ , what do you do for a living?

usamamasan1

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

i thought we were not doing racial stereotypes?

what the fuck is it with all of the stereotyping and racism on this board lately?

I was stating probably one of the biggest problems they deal with, homeboy. over ten percent of their deaths are alcohol related. You got some thin skin, homeboy. go cry it out. I didn't even touch on drug use.

gimmesometruth27

usamamasan1 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

i thought we were not doing racial stereotypes?

what the fuck is it with all of the stereotyping and racism on this board lately?

I was stating probably one of the biggest problems they deal with, homeboy. over ten percent of their deaths are alcohol related. You got some thin skin, homeboy. go cry it out. I didn't even touch on drug use.

let's get something straight.

first off, i am not your homeboy, and i do not have a thin skin.

i stand up against bigots like you, and i call you on the immaturity and the racism that you spout on here.

why do you feel it necessary to post an old cartoon based on old racial stereotypes instead of just typing out what you just typed????

you are not a comedian, you are not funny, and the plight of the native americans is nothing to laugh at or poke fun at. you should be ashamed of yourself...

i am actually appalled that your post of that pic is allowed to stand. why not post a pic of an african american sitting in a watermellon patch smoking crack? it is pretty much the same thing that you just did.

Kat

This topic seems to have run its course right off into the ditch. It's finished now.

Admin