Geronimo

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JonnyPistachio wrote:

I see exactly what you're saying, and I just think the context is taken way over the top. And the people that are offended by this are just perpetuating it by claiming it to be derogatory. It was not intended as a substitute for bin ladens name.

You just reinforced something in one of your previous posts though that you didnt see any other cultural heros or oppressed people on Godfathers list, so maybe Geronimo is being put in a pool of positive labels.. I see things like Courageous, eureka, gold, Herkules, etc... I'd be honored if they used my name (or my Moms )

Yeah, that might be the problem that they didnt hink about it (the name of the mission), but If the people naming this mission didnt have intentions/thoughts about it, then it is exactly what other people make of it...it can be positive, negative, or nothing.

Regarding it being intended as a substitute for bin Laden's name, I'm not sure that's accurate. I'm not 100% sure it's not, but I've heard it both ways.

I think the fact that no other cultural heros have been defiled in such a way actually gives even more reason for people to be upset. It's not like they can say it's common practice or something.

I see what you're saying about intention, and I used to lean moreso to that way of thinking. But, whether intended or not, they have offended an entire group of people. I think they need to apologize and learn from this mistake, not try to justify it & invalidate the perspectives of the people they offended. (I don't know that THEY are doing this, but others are sure doing it on their behalf.)

Since we're all about analogies today... imagine if I went around using "The N Word" with no malintention, and then a bunch of people said they were offended. Shouldn't I apologize & stop using it instead of just saying there's nothing wrong with the word & they shouldn't be so senstive?

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http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/geronimo ... ac1fa9%2C0

Here's an interesting article about it. I think Tom Udall said it well: "It highlights a serious issue... a socially ingrained acceptance of derogatory portrayals of indigenous peoples."

And imagine being the grandson of Geronimo & this is specifically named for your grandfather?

JonnyPistachio

_ wrote:

Since we're all about analogies today... imagine if I went around using "The N Word" with no malintention, and then a bunch of people said they were offended. Shouldn't I apologize & stop using it instead of just saying there's nothing wrong with the word & they shouldn't be so senstive?

haha, yeah -- it is bad analogy day!
Cant compare these two... Geronimo in itself is a mans name. The "N-word" is just derogatory from the get-go!

From the article you posted:
"Today the name is not only used as a motivational yell or as code in military missions, but also as an insignia for an Army brigade. The 1st Battalion Airborne, 501st Infantry Regiment, wears the insignia of the Native-American leader on its sleeves -- literally."

Then we've got to apologize for the Apache helicopter, the Cleveland indians, anytime I give something to someone and take it back...and on and on... (the last was a joke, reference to Seinfeld )

I don't know, I guess we just have different opinions of this, so no need to keep going. I just recall the first time I heard that they codenamed it Geronimo, I thought it to be a positive reference.

brianlux

I agree that political correctness can go too far sometimes and that it is even appropriate to poke fun at it sometimes (for example, George Carlin was often good at doing this). But American Indians are a colonized people and we live in a colonial state. I believe many people are still unaware of this- at least most of us whites. The use of American Indian names is just one of many examples of the ongoing state of colonization in America. This egregious wrong doing is still mostly misunderstood, unrecognized, and/or unacknowledged.

kenny olav

Interesting debate, but my main point was that the spiritual beliefs of Geronimo and his tribe lack the major flaws of the fundamentalist Muslim or Christian point of view (and that fundamentalism probably can never be seperated from these two religions... it's just a matter of degree). This fundamentalism... this sense of 'our beliefs are superior to yours, and we don't value your life because of your beliefs', it ties into how Geronimo could be used as a code name for Osama bin Laden... I don't know who came up with that code name, but the fact it was approved and used says something about our military leaders. I was in no way trying to slight the Navy Seals who obviously conducted a brave and efficient operation and took out one of the greatest terrorist murderers of the modern age. But we can't hide from the fact that racism is still prevelent in our society. Using this code name shows that the leaders of this operation (incl Obama?) have learned nothing since the 1800's. It's also perhaps an admission that because Geronimo opposed the imperial mission of the US Army in those days, they saw OBL as another fugitive threat to the imperial missions of today. I don't equate the two men though. OBL was obviously no hero. He was like Hitler or Tojo... in favor of his imperialism over ours.

So now we have U.S. Senators condemning the use of this code name. Good for them, but it seems like it's only Senators from states with large Native American populations that are speaking out. In the year 2011, it should be every single member of Congress speaking out against this type of injustice. It shoud have been that way in 1776 too, but you know...

kenny olav

brianlux wrote:

I agree that political correctness can go too far sometimes and that it is even appropriate to poke fun at it sometimes (for example, George Carlin was often good at doing this). But American Indians are a colonized people and we live in a colonial state. I believe many people are still unaware of this- at least most of us whites. The use of American Indian names is just one of many examples of the ongoing state of colonization in America. This egregious wrong doing is still mostly misunderstood, unrecognized, and/or unacknowledged.

Yeah, George Carlin was the man!

And I don't care about people yelling "Geronimo!!" when they jump in a pool or out of an airplane. I don't even know why that's done, but it's in no way similar to using his name as a code name for Osama bin Laden...WTF?!

Jason P

I've hear that Sly Stallone is penning a letter that objects to the military's use of the term "Tango" as a generic term for an enemy combatant.

81

:yawn:

quick, lets rename the cleveland and atlanta baseball franchises, as well as teh washington football franchise. :roll:

_

JonnyPistachio wrote:

_ wrote:

Since we're all about analogies today... imagine if I went around using "The N Word" with no malintention, and then a bunch of people said they were offended. Shouldn't I apologize & stop using it instead of just saying there's nothing wrong with the word & they shouldn't be so senstive?

haha, yeah -- it is bad analogy day!
Cant compare these two... Geronimo in itself is a mans name. The "N-word" is just derogatory from the get-go!

From the article you posted:
"Today the name is not only used as a motivational yell or as code in military missions, but also as an insignia for an Army brigade. The 1st Battalion Airborne, 501st Infantry Regiment, wears the insignia of the Native-American leader on its sleeves -- literally."

Then we've got to apologize for the Apache helicopter, the Cleveland indians, anytime I give something to someone and take it back...and on and on... (the last was a joke, reference to Seinfeld )

I don't know, I guess we just have different opinions of this, so no need to keep going. I just recall the first time I heard that they codenamed it Geronimo, I thought it to be a positive reference.

Oh you're a regular comedian, aren't you? I think you get my point, which was about intention vs. effect when it comes to being offended. And, yes, we should apologize for the Cleveland Indians.

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brianlux wrote:

I agree that political correctness can go too far sometimes and that it is even appropriate to poke fun at it sometimes (for example, George Carlin was often good at doing this). But American Indians are a colonized people and we live in a colonial state. I believe many people are still unaware of this- at least most of us whites. The use of American Indian names is just one of many examples of the ongoing state of colonization in America. This egregious wrong doing is still mostly misunderstood, unrecognized, and/or unacknowledged.

That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about! Thanks for explaining it better. :thumbup:

mickeyrat

Ok, after some thought , maybe they should have called this what the intent was , " Operation Body Bag" in the intended event of his death. Or "Operation Hood and Cuffs" in the unlikely event of his capture.

gimmesometruth27

81 wrote:

:yawn:

quick, lets rename the cleveland and atlanta baseball franchises, as well as teh washington football franchise. :roll:

there have been people pushing for this since the mid '90s. nothing new really. as they should be renamed.

or why not rename the yankees to the new york negros?

or the utah jazz the utah mormons?

or the detroit red wings the detroit felons?

it is all the same thing.

81

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

81 wrote:

:yawn:

quick, lets rename the cleveland and atlanta baseball franchises, as well as teh washington football franchise. :roll:

there have been people pushing for this since the mid '90s. nothing new really. as they should be renamed.

or why not rename the yankees to the new york negros?

or the utah jazz the utah mormons?

or the detroit red wings the detroit felons?

it is all the same thing.

i find the ny giants to be offensive. really?

mickeyrat

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

81 wrote:

:yawn:

quick, lets rename the cleveland and atlanta baseball franchises, as well as teh washington football franchise. :roll:

there have been people pushing for this since the mid '90s. nothing new really. as they should be renamed.

or why not rename the yankees to the new york negros?

or the utah jazz the utah mormons?

or the detroit red wings the detroit felons?

it is all the same thing.

Dont forget KC.

aerial

What about the Dallas Cowboys. You think the cowboys are offended.
If people keep crying wolf on things that do not really matter, soon no one is going to care, because everyone is offended at some time or another. Where is the tolerance you constantly preach

ed243421

the early settlers(thieves) feared the natives
and wanted their land
so they exterminated most of them

a hundred plus years later
they learn more about the natives simple yet genius way of life
so americans "honor" them by naming sport teams after them

i think mostly, it was done with true respect
and in some instances, it was not (see fsu seminoles early days)

to say the chicago blackhawks is demeaning sounds silly to me
but maybe it does offend some

intent is not always everything
if the us did mean to paint geronimo in a negative light
that would be wrong
and if they did not
they are still guilty for associating good with evil

those who say "it's just a name" understand that names can demean entire races of people
they just do not care

there is a 10club member with a racist username
for about 5 years
and i've seen only 1 other person have an issue with this
i've asked 10club, kat, and sea why this is allowed
and have not recieved an answer
which is strange cause if 1 member calls another member a name
they lock that thread up with swift authority
but they allow a username to insult an entire race of people

so most people here either do not care or harbor much hate for other people
who "look" different from themselves
and that's just the way of the world
sad

brianlux

aerial wrote:

What about the Dallas Cowboys. You think the cowboys are offended.
If people keep crying wolf on things that do not really matter, soon no one is going to care, because everyone is offended at some time or another. Where is the tolerance you constantly preach

Yes, if cowboys generally felt offended by the name, it should be changed. They haven't, so it hasn't. But American Indians have frequently protested the use of their names for things non-native and we should honor their request. That's just simple respect. We commited genocide on them and now won't even give them simple decent respect. Pathetic.

_

aerial wrote:

What about the Dallas Cowboys. You think the cowboys are offended.
If people keep crying wolf on things that do not really matter, soon no one is going to care, because everyone is offended at some time or another. Where is the tolerance you constantly preach

:? Uh... "cowboy" is an occupation, not a race of oppressed & disrespected peoples. And I'm sure you think you're being very clever with the whole cowboys & Indians thing, but all the cowboys I know ARE Indians, so I think your comment is just ignorant all around. And I have never preached that we should tolerate the disrespect of others. :?

kenny olav

Noam Chomsky has something to say about this:

Same with the name, Operation Geronimo. The imperial mentality is so profound, throughout western society, that no one can perceive that they are glorifying bin Laden by identifying him with courageous resistance against genocidal invaders. It’s like naming our murder weapons after victims of our crimes: Apache, Tomahawk… It’s as if the Luftwaffe were to call its fighter planes “Jew” and “Gypsy.”

whygohome

The bottom Line (after 4 pages of this thread): the use of Geronimo wasn't the best choice.