Public Housing moving to my Neighborhood...

Break The Sky

I like how this thread has become about lawnmowers! It's a shame I'm not in the business. . . I could probably sell two or three to people on this thread.

I have a neighbor I love and a neighbor I could do without. My neighbor I like is very elderly and can't do manual labor, so I snowblow is driveway in the winter and mow his lawn in the summer. He's a Army vet, and I like hearing his stories, so I figure, what the hell, I'm young.

My other neighbor, I don't think I'd bring him a letter that was accidentally delivered to me, much less mow his lawn or let him borrow my lawnmower. I wouldn't let him borrow my mower because I've seen the way he takes care of his own things. Sure I hate that his lawn look awful, but if I let him borrow my mower and he takes it for a joyride, then I have no mower, and my lawn looks like shit.

It's called Utilitarianism, and it's weighing the overall good and bad consequences of any given action and choosing the actions that have overall the most good consequences. By allowing my asshole neighbor to borrow my mower, my neighborhood as a whole might have two shitty lawns instead of just one.

Smellyman

It's about lawns now...:) How about we get rid of polluting mowers, fertilizers, pesticides and water waste and get rid of expenisve, time consuming lawns.

http://www.forget-me-notlandscapedesign.com/lawnless-landscaping.html

not enough grass!!!

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/the-scene/real-estate/City-Drops-Case-Against-Lawnless-Man-86352427.html

probably could be a whole other thread.

_

Big Drop wrote:

I like how this thread has become about lawnmowers! It's a shame I'm not in the business. . . I could probably sell two or three to people on this thread.

I have a neighbor I love and a neighbor I could do without. My neighbor I like is very elderly and can't do manual labor, so I snowblow is driveway in the winter and mow his lawn in the summer. He's a Army vet, and I like hearing his stories, so I figure, what the hell, I'm young.

My other neighbor, I don't think I'd bring him a letter that was accidentally delivered to me, much less mow his lawn or let him borrow my lawnmower. I wouldn't let him borrow my mower because I've seen the way he takes care of his own things. Sure I hate that his lawn look awful, but if I let him borrow my mower and he takes it for a joyride, then I have no mower, and my lawn looks like shit.

It's called Utilitarianism, and it's weighing the overall good and bad consequences of any given action and choosing the actions that have overall the most good consequences. By allowing my asshole neighbor to borrow my mower, my neighborhood as a whole might have two shitty lawns instead of just one.

Choosing the action that has the most good consequences for whom? That's the question. The guy with the lawnmower generally says he shouldn't loan his mower because it may have negative consequences for him. The guy not cutting his grass might say he's not doing it because it will have negative consequences for him. And then comes the pissing match about whose interests are more important.

The guy who wants his neighbor's lawn cut clearly thinks his interests are more important, and will probably argue that he's right because having nice lawns produces the greatest good for the greatest number of people. This would be the utilitarian argument anyway. But if he truly placed the good of the people over the good of the individual, he would suck it up and loan out his lawnmower or mow his neighbor's yard. So I'm not sure the guy with the lawnmower really has a utilitarian leg to stand on.

I see your point about not wanting to have your yard go to shit too, because the neighbor broke your lawnmower, and I think that's the most utilitarian argument that's been made against loaning the mower. But, really, you don't know for sure that the neighbor will break your lawnmower and, if he did, he probably wouldn't break it immediately and you'd probably just buy another one instead of having a shitty yard for the rest of your life - especially if you really believed in the utilitarian argument that having a nice lawn for the good of the whole neighborhood is what's most important. Plus, someone who strongly believed in this utilitarian argument should just mow their neighbors' yards themselves, if it means that much to them.

But I think people don't do that because they're really NOT utilitarians; they actually think their own individual good (not loaning their lawnmower or mowing someone else's lawn) is more important than the good of the community (everyone having nice lawns). If that's the decision they make, so be it. But then they need to acknowledge that they are choosing to allow the neighbors' lawns to go unmowed because their interest in nice lawns is secondary to their interest in not doing anything constructive about it.

So, no, I don't think the anti-lawnmower-loaning argument is really a utilitarian one - and perhaps that's the problem. What it really comes down to is that the people with the lawnmowers who are complaining about their neighbors' yards don't think it's fair for their neighbors to get away with not mowing their own lawns with their own lawnmowers. Sounds more like a deontological argument to me.

Break The Sky

_ wrote:

Big Drop wrote:

I like how this thread has become about lawnmowers! It's a shame I'm not in the business. . . I could probably sell two or three to people on this thread.

I have a neighbor I love and a neighbor I could do without. My neighbor I like is very elderly and can't do manual labor, so I snowblow is driveway in the winter and mow his lawn in the summer. He's a Army vet, and I like hearing his stories, so I figure, what the hell, I'm young.

My other neighbor, I don't think I'd bring him a letter that was accidentally delivered to me, much less mow his lawn or let him borrow my lawnmower. I wouldn't let him borrow my mower because I've seen the way he takes care of his own things. Sure I hate that his lawn look awful, but if I let him borrow my mower and he takes it for a joyride, then I have no mower, and my lawn looks like shit.

It's called Utilitarianism, and it's weighing the overall good and bad consequences of any given action and choosing the actions that have overall the most good consequences. By allowing my asshole neighbor to borrow my mower, my neighborhood as a whole might have two shitty lawns instead of just one.

Choosing the action that has the most good consequences for whom? That's the question. The guy with the lawnmower generally says he shouldn't loan his mower because it may have negative consequences for him. The guy not cutting his grass might say he's not doing it because it will have negative consequences for him. And then comes the pissing match about whose interests are more important.

The guy who wants his neighbor's lawn cut clearly thinks his interests are more important, and will probably argue that he's right because having nice lawns produces the greatest good for the greatest number of people. This would be the utilitarian argument anyway. But if he truly placed the good of the people over the good of the individual, he would suck it up and loan out his lawnmower or mow his neighbor's yard. So I'm not sure the guy with the lawnmower really has a utilitarian leg to stand on.

I see your point about not wanting to have your yard go to shit too, because the neighbor broke your lawnmower, and I think that's the most utilitarian argument that's been made against loaning the mower. But, really, you don't know for sure that the neighbor will break your lawnmower and, if he did, he probably wouldn't break it immediately and you'd probably just buy another one instead of having a shitty yard for the rest of your life - especially if you really believed in the utilitarian argument that having a nice lawn for the good of the whole neighborhood is what's most important. Plus, someone who strongly believed in this utilitarian argument should just mow their neighbors' yards themselves, if it means that much to them.

But I think people don't do that because they're really NOT utilitarians; they actually think their own individual good (not loaning their lawnmower or mowing someone else's lawn) is more important than the good of the community (everyone having nice lawns). If that's the decision they make, so be it. But then they need to acknowledge that they are choosing to allow the neighbors' lawns to go unmowed because their interest in nice lawns is secondary to their interest in not doing anything constructive about it.

So, no, I don't think the anti-lawnmower-loaning argument is really a utilitarian one - and perhaps that's the problem. What it really comes down to is that the people with the lawnmowers who are complaining about their neighbors' yards don't think it's fair for their neighbors to get away with not mowing their own lawns with their own lawnmowers. Sounds more like a deontological argument to me.

Fortunately there is no equation for determining the moral sum of utilitarian decisions. I still say that not letting my neighbor borrow my lawnmower is the most utilitarian decision, as good upkeep is very important to me, not very important to him, and marginally important to the rest of the neighborhood. If he mows his lawn, maybe a few people become slightly more happy, but if I can't mow my lawn, I become VERY UNHAPPY.

Either way, I just don't like the guy because he's a slacker. He can't even be bothered to wave to me when I say hi to him. I'm not looking to become canonized or anything and I'm not going to mow the lawn of someone I don't like. Even if I was looking to become canonized, I don't really feel like becoming the patron saint of lawn mowers.

_

Big Drop wrote:

Fortunately there is no equation for determining the moral sum of utilitarian decisions. I still say that not letting my neighbor borrow my lawnmower is the most utilitarian decision, as good upkeep is very important to me, not very important to him, and marginally important to the rest of the neighborhood. If he mows his lawn, maybe a few people become slightly more happy, but if I can't mow my lawn, I become VERY UNHAPPY.

Yeah, I think there's a utilitarian argument to be made, which will vary based on values - I just don't think other people are making it. If good upkeep is only marginally important to your neighbors, it seems like you have a different situation. Personally, I don't give a rat's ass whether my neighbors mow their lawns, park in their yards, or paint their houses purple, so I think the whole basis of the argument that lawn-mowing is best for the neighborhood is flawed.

Big Drop wrote:

Either way, I just don't like the guy because he's a slacker. He can't even be bothered to wave to me when I say hi to him. I'm not looking to become canonized or anything and I'm not going to mow the lawn of someone I don't like. Even if I was looking to become canonized, I don't really feel like becoming the patron saint of lawn mowers.

____

Unrelated to you or this post, I just want to point out that it's not only poor people who don't mow their lawns. My friend & her husband make good money & have a nice house in a nice neighborhood. But this requires that they work a shit-ton of hours, not leaving them much time to mow their lawn. Plus, it's not really one of their highest priorities for what to do in the little free time they do have.

They never really thought about it until one of their pissy neighbors called the city. If he had just come to them and expressed his concern, they might have hired a neighbor kid to mow the lawn. But this guy has pre-judged them since they moved in because they're young & work for the local rock station, so he's not particularly neighborly or friendly with them.

So a guy from the city showed up unexpectedly at their door to issue a citation. But they're kind of local celebrities, so when he realized who they were he let them off the hook. And when they complained to the city guy about the neighbor's fence, he issued the neighbor a citation instead.

In the end, they decided not to mow the lawn all summer, just to spite the pissy neighbor.

So the morals to my story are:
(1) There are people of all walks of life who don't mow their lawns, not just people who are poor or lazy or live in section 8 housing.
(2) It's generally more beneficial to give people the benefit of the doubt and be neighborly than to judge them and be pissy.
(3) Social capital goes a long way, but not everyone is privileged enough to have it.
(4) Being a spiteful neighbor can backfire.

cincybearcat

_ wrote:

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass whether my neighbors mow their lawns, park in their yards, or paint their houses purple, so I think the whole basis of the argument that lawn-mowing is best for the neighborhood is flawed.

What about the people you are trying to sell your house to? It can be a problem for people who don't even care themselves when it comes time to move.

fife

cincybearcat wrote:

_ wrote:

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass whether my neighbors mow their lawns, park in their yards, or paint their houses purple, so I think the whole basis of the argument that lawn-mowing is best for the neighborhood is flawed.

What about the people you are trying to sell your house to? It can be a problem for people who don't even care themselves when it comes time to move.

I agree with this but to be honest, many factors can lead to the same result. for example, i read some reports about some communities in America that high foreclosure rates and how it brought down housing value.

_

cincybearcat wrote:

_ wrote:

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass whether my neighbors mow their lawns, park in their yards, or paint their houses purple, so I think the whole basis of the argument that lawn-mowing is best for the neighborhood is flawed.

What about the people you are trying to sell your house to? It can be a problem for people who don't even care themselves when it comes time to move.

Yeah, I've heard people say this. But I still don't think conforming for the supposed sake of property values is worth the price of not being able to live our own lives, in our own homes, however we see fit. (Where's that idea of individual freedom that I hear so many people talk about?) Plus, I can't help but wonder if this is just a self-perpetuating system. Like, people are told that homes in eccentric neighborhoods are worth less when it comes time to sell, so they don't buy homes in those neighborhoods, and that's what really makes them worth less.

acoustic guy

_ wrote:

acoustic guy wrote:

GIVE ME A FREAKIN BREAK!!!
Wake up Sunshine.
Its a fact that section 8 as well as those types of housing situations bring down property value period.
You can be all about peace and love but the facts are facts.
I cant stand hearing people make excuses and ask what someone shold have done to help the section 8 ppl. Someone already tried to help them by moving them into a high end neighborhood. They tried to set them up with a nice home and an safe environment. Did it help???? Apparently not.
Some people in this world dont see what other see. They dont have the same values or were not brought up the same way as others that understand living a normal life. Liberals always think everyone is equal inside and that we all just need a break. Bullshit.
Sure many people have bad starts in life and need a helping hand. But to think everyone is equal and just needs to be GIVEN a home or GIVEN an oppertunity is ridiculous.
If we are going to have programs in the US that help minorities then it needs to be strict and regulated.
Total Bullshit.

I love how you just switched so smoothly from "section 8 ppl" to "minorities" there.

So you dont agree that 90 percent of the people in Section 8 housing are minorities? Some of you liberals here are either blind or full of shit.

gimmesometruth27

acoustic guy wrote:

_ wrote:

acoustic guy wrote:

GIVE ME A FREAKIN BREAK!!!
Wake up Sunshine.
Its a fact that section 8 as well as those types of housing situations bring down property value period.
You can be all about peace and love but the facts are facts.
I cant stand hearing people make excuses and ask what someone shold have done to help the section 8 ppl. Someone already tried to help them by moving them into a high end neighborhood. They tried to set them up with a nice home and an safe environment. Did it help???? Apparently not.
Some people in this world dont see what other see. They dont have the same values or were not brought up the same way as others that understand living a normal life. Liberals always think everyone is equal inside and that we all just need a break. Bullshit.
Sure many people have bad starts in life and need a helping hand. But to think everyone is equal and just needs to be GIVEN a home or GIVEN an oppertunity is ridiculous.
If we are going to have programs in the US that help minorities then it needs to be strict and regulated.
Total Bullshit.

I love how you just switched so smoothly from "section 8 ppl" to "minorities" there.

So you dont agree that 90 percent of the people in Section 8 housing are minorities? Some of you liberals here are either blind or full of shit.

that depends on the location. depends on the state and the regions of that state. i think it is an overblown generalization to say that 90% of people in section 8 are minorities. from my own experience there is section 8 near the hospital where i work and it is pretty much all white people, the working poor, in that area. how do i know? because i see them in my practice every single day.

Better Dan

acoustic guy wrote:

_ wrote:

acoustic guy wrote:

GIVE ME A FREAKIN BREAK!!!
Wake up Sunshine.
Its a fact that section 8 as well as those types of housing situations bring down property value period.
You can be all about peace and love but the facts are facts.
I cant stand hearing people make excuses and ask what someone shold have done to help the section 8 ppl. Someone already tried to help them by moving them into a high end neighborhood. They tried to set them up with a nice home and an safe environment. Did it help???? Apparently not.
Some people in this world dont see what other see. They dont have the same values or were not brought up the same way as others that understand living a normal life. Liberals always think everyone is equal inside and that we all just need a break. Bullshit.
Sure many people have bad starts in life and need a helping hand. But to think everyone is equal and just needs to be GIVEN a home or GIVEN an oppertunity is ridiculous.
If we are going to have programs in the US that help minorities then it needs to be strict and regulated.
Total Bullshit.

I love how you just switched so smoothly from "section 8 ppl" to "minorities" there.

So you dont agree that 90 percent of the people in Section 8 housing are minorities? Some of you liberals here are either blind or full of shit.

Maybe the majority are minorities, I don't know, but can you really say 90 percent? Do you have any facts to back up your percentage or are you as you said "full of shit"

_

Better Dan wrote:

acoustic guy wrote:

_ wrote:

I love how you just switched so smoothly from "section 8 ppl" to "minorities" there.

So you dont agree that 90 percent of the people in Section 8 housing are minorities? Some of you liberals here are either blind or full of shit.

Maybe the majority are minorities, I don't know, but can you really say 90 percent? Do you have any facts to back up your percentage or are you as you said "full of shit"

He's totally full of shit. He has no data to support his claim because, as he would realize if he cared about facts, the actual data shows that he is wrong.

According to the statistical data from the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development:

Recipients of assistance from the Section 8 Moderate Rehabilitation program are 54% white, 42% black, 1% American Indian, 1% Asian, 1% Hawaiian/Pacific Islander, and 1% mixed race. Since I'm sure acoustic guy wouldn't count Hispanic people among his white brethren... 31% are Hispanic/Latino and 69% are non-Hispanic/Latino. Bear in mind, however, that these people are double-counted, so some of them are counted as white and others counted as black; this ratio is not provided.

Recipients of assistance from the Section 8 Moderate Rehabilitation Single Room Occupancy program are 50% white, 46% black, 1% American Indian, 1% Asian, and 1% mixed race. Of these, 12% are Hispanic and 88% are not.

No matter how you look at it, the assertion that 90% of people in Section 8 housing are minorities is complete bullshit. I just don't know why people don't look up the facts before they make such inaccurate claims and categorize entire political groups as being full of shit.

GTFLYGIRL

acoustic guy wrote:

So you dont agree that 90 percent of the people in Section 8 housing are minorities? Some of you liberals here are either blind or full of shit.

Guess we libs can't argue with your made up, pulled-from-your-ass statistics, huh?

I laugh... but really it is sad that people think like this... No wonder the country is in the shape it is in...

hockeygrrl

I think I remember why I normally don't visit AMT. I was under this notion that PJ fans were open minded and would certainly NOT be racist...WWEVD? This thread nearly had me in angry tears at one point. I am a white woman who has lived in a nice house, has also lived in a mobile home, have lived in motels for years on end, and lived on the streets. I've also lived in public housing. I'm happy to know that my existance in public housing would be so tramatic to those living nearby.

Back to the porch. Oi vay. :roll:

_

hockeygrrl wrote:

I think I remember why I normally don't visit AMT. I was under this notion that PJ fans were open minded and would certainly NOT be racist...WWEVD? This thread nearly had me in angry tears at one point. I am a white woman who has lived in a nice house, has also lived in a mobile home, have lived in motels for years on end, and lived on the streets. I've also lived in public housing. I'm happy to know that my existance in public housing would be so tramatic to those living nearby.

Back to the porch. Oi vay. :roll:

You should stick around. The Train could use some perspective.

bennett13

[/quote]
In reality in my neighbor hood I pretty much have the nighborhood 20" ladder, So its borrowed all the time. I have no issues lending it out because I know my neighbors and I know they will take care of it and treat it like its theirs. But if I have a neighbor who I don't know/dosen't cut their gass/ does not take care of their property what makes you think that they are going to be responsible with your equipment? Would you let this section 8 neighbor borrow your car? What if their water go shut off because they didn't pay the bills, would you pay thier water bills/let them barrow water everyday until that bill got paid?
Its not kindergarden dude, Were taling about expensive equipment. Some of us just can't go out and buy a lawnmower/fuel for mulitple lots.[/quote]

You have a 20" ladder? That's amazing! I didn't know they made them that small. Why do I suddenly have images in my head of Spinal Tap performing "Stonehenge"?

bennett13

GTFLYGIRL wrote:

acoustic guy wrote:

So you dont agree that 90 percent of the people in Section 8 housing are minorities? Some of you liberals here are either blind or full of shit.


I just read something about 90% of people being minorities and my eyeballs exploded inside my skull.

Cosmo

In the spirit of the upcoming Easter Season... I would like to add this quote from Jesus Christ:
"Fuck the Poor!!! Kill the Poor!!!"
...
Wait. What? Jesus didn't say this?
And of course, no God fearing follower of Christ would ever feel this way, either... right?
Okay.
...
Happy Easter, everyone!

Lizard

Touche.

gimmesometruth27

i'm still waiting for a source on this line:

"90 percent of the people in Section 8 housing are minorities"....

probably won't get one, because there IS no source that says this aside from the poster who wrote it..