Tired of the bullshit!!!

Aga81

brandon10 wrote:

I'm there.

I see - maybe some day....

Go Beavers

WaveRyder wrote:

Go Beavers wrote:

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

Ron Paul? Never heard of 'em.

If he ever got elected, and started to reneg on his campaign promises, I'd probably get called out on all angles by people on this board... I'm a pretty big fan, and have a hard time disagreeing with almost anything the guy says. It's all got a pretty solid foundation rooted in Austrian Economics, and classical liberalism.

Ron Paul's beliefs exist in fantasy. The federal government should be like it was in the 1800's? No thanks. Notice that he always has an R next to his name? Nut up and get an I next to it like Bernie Sanders.

He ran for president as a libertarian in 1988. The system makes it impossible for third parties. It's strategy and it's served Dr. Paul well.

As far as existing in fantasy, of course, right now it's a fantasy. I fantasize about being able to make my own way in this country and not having bureaucrats an politicians telling me how to live my life and run my business.

God Bless people like Dr. Paul for standing firm behind the ideas and beliefs of the founding fathers.

---

Ron Paul seemed to have grasped on to an Austrian economists theories because it was a vehicle that he could attach his frustration to. He had beliefs, and then his reads a book that confirmed them. To me, that's not well thought out nor well developed. He was (is) a cranky old coot that was looking for affirmation from someone else. The whole "government bad, free market good" notion doesn't reflect much thinking and I see it as a way place blame.

I'm curious how politicians and bureaucrats tell you how to live your life, because I go about my life hardly ever feeling like the government is holding me back. I'm really curious, not trying to bait, because I hear this complaint but I can't really relate.

---

WaveRyder

Go Beavers wrote:

I'm curious how politicians and bureaucrats tell you how to live your life, because I go about my life hardly ever feeling like the government is holding me back. I'm really curious, not trying to bait, because I hear this complaint but I can't really relate.

---

Examples:
I am a business owner, I cannot let people smoke in my place of business, regardless of what the market demands are.

I am a student. In the 1950's when the entire higher education system was paid for with real currency and PRIVATE loans, it cost about $600 per semester, an amount any American could earn if he/she so willed or get a loan for such a minimal amount. Then the federal government took over the loan system. Today, there is more than $700 billion in federal student loan debt. That is draining the system and keeping our young, educated people oppressed.

Pretty much anything regarding health safety, the government is all over it, but as far as I can remember, the constitution doesn't dictate that the government be too concerned about health safety.

I live in San Francisco, I can't buy my kid a happy meal anymore.

I am a cigar afiscianado(sp) but can't purchase tobacco via catalog in something like 33 states.(an impact on both the consumer and the legitimate business)

Toll roads - we already pay taxes to build them, then we pay more to use them

I am a homeowner. I want to renovate my bathroom. I have to get a permit first.

---

I could go on and on about what you actually have to give up. Maybe you personally arent having the freedoms you regularly exercise encroached upon, but the fact is, the govt is treading on quite a bit of OUR freedoms, whether we exercise them or not, and those who tolerate it are as evil as those stripping us of them.

Electric_Delta

WaveRyder wrote:

Go Beavers wrote:

I'm curious how politicians and bureaucrats tell you how to live your life, because I go about my life hardly ever feeling like the government is holding me back. I'm really curious, not trying to bait, because I hear this complaint but I can't really relate.

---

Examples:
I am a business owner, I cannot let people smoke in my place of business, regardless of what the market demands are.

I am a student. In the 1950's when the entire higher education system was paid for with real currency and PRIVATE loans, it cost about $600 per semester, an amount any American could earn in he/she so willed or get a loan for such a minimal amount. Then the federal government took over the loan system. Today, there is more than $700 billion in federal student loan debt. That is draining the system and keeping our young, educated people oppressed.

Pretty much anything regarding health safety, the government is all over it, but as far as I can remember, the constitution doesn't dictate that the government be too concerned about health safety.

I live in San Francisco, I can't by my kid a happy meal anymore.

I am a cigar afiscianado(sp) but can't purchase tobacco via catalog in something like 33 states.(an impact on both the consumer and the legitimate business)

Toll roads - we already pay taxes to build them, then we pay more to use them

I am a homeowner. I want to renovate my bathroom. I have to get a permit first.

---

I could go on and on about what you actually have to give up. Maybe you personally arent having the freedoms you regularly exercise encroached upon, but the fact is, the govt is treading on quite a bit of OUR freedoms, whether we exercise them or not, and those who tolerate it are as evil as those stripping us of them.

Very well-spoken.

Go Beavers

WaveRyder wrote:

Go Beavers wrote:

I'm curious how politicians and bureaucrats tell you how to live your life, because I go about my life hardly ever feeling like the government is holding me back. I'm really curious, not trying to bait, because I hear this complaint but I can't really relate.

---

Examples:
I am a business owner, I cannot let people smoke in my place of business, regardless of what the market demands are.

I am a student. In the 1950's when the entire higher education system was paid for with real currency and PRIVATE loans, it cost about $600 per semester, an amount any American could earn if he/she so willed or get a loan for such a minimal amount. Then the federal government took over the loan system. Today, there is more than $700 billion in federal student loan debt. That is draining the system and keeping our young, educated people oppressed.

Pretty much anything regarding health safety, the government is all over it, but as far as I can remember, the constitution doesn't dictate that the government be too concerned about health safety.

I live in San Francisco, I can't buy my kid a happy meal anymore.

I am a cigar afiscianado(sp) but can't purchase tobacco via catalog in something like 33 states.(an impact on both the consumer and the legitimate business)

Toll roads - we already pay taxes to build them, then we pay more to use them

I am a homeowner. I want to renovate my bathroom. I have to get a permit first.

---

I could go on and on about what you actually have to give up. Maybe you personally arent having the freedoms you regularly exercise encroached upon, but the fact is, the govt is treading on quite a bit of OUR freedoms, whether we exercise them or not, and those who tolerate it are as evil as those stripping us of them.

---

I live where it's smoke free and has been for awhile. The concerns about it hurting business turned out to be largely unfounded and it's seen as increasing business because more non-smoker go out.

Federal school loans increase access to school for those who wouldn't normally get them, so I'm fine with it.

The constitution didn't reference health and safety, it referenced representing the people. I would say that people are getting what they want. For good or bad, the government is the people's. We put them there. Sure corporations have intervened, that's because people are more likely to vote for the corporate candidate. A large group of voters like 'shiny' things, and the non-corporate candidate isn't very shiny.

People bag on building codes until the bathtub falls through the floor and smashes Jimmy, then they want building codes. Look at Haiti after the quake to see a lack of codes. I think you're implying that I'm "evil" because I'm tolerating certain laws. I'd rather look at why the law was put in place and the process of how it came to be. I like to have issue w/particular laws rather than a blanket boo-hoo, the government is robbing me of my freedoms.

WaveRyder

Go Beavers wrote:

WaveRyder wrote:

Go Beavers wrote:

I'm curious how politicians and bureaucrats tell you how to live your life, because I go about my life hardly ever feeling like the government is holding me back. I'm really curious, not trying to bait, because I hear this complaint but I can't really relate.

---

Examples:
I am a business owner, I cannot let people smoke in my place of business, regardless of what the market demands are.

I am a student. In the 1950's when the entire higher education system was paid for with real currency and PRIVATE loans, it cost about $600 per semester, an amount any American could earn if he/she so willed or get a loan for such a minimal amount. Then the federal government took over the loan system. Today, there is more than $700 billion in federal student loan debt. That is draining the system and keeping our young, educated people oppressed.

Pretty much anything regarding health safety, the government is all over it, but as far as I can remember, the constitution doesn't dictate that the government be too concerned about health safety.

I live in San Francisco, I can't buy my kid a happy meal anymore.

I am a cigar afiscianado(sp) but can't purchase tobacco via catalog in something like 33 states.(an impact on both the consumer and the legitimate business)

Toll roads - we already pay taxes to build them, then we pay more to use them

I am a homeowner. I want to renovate my bathroom. I have to get a permit first.

---

I could go on and on about what you actually have to give up. Maybe you personally arent having the freedoms you regularly exercise encroached upon, but the fact is, the govt is treading on quite a bit of OUR freedoms, whether we exercise them or not, and those who tolerate it are as evil as those stripping us of them.

---

I live where it's smoke free and has been for awhile. The concerns about it hurting business turned out to be largely unfounded and it's seen as increasing business because more non-smoker go out.

Federal school loans increase access to school for those who wouldn't normally get them, so I'm fine with it.

The constitution didn't reference health and safety, it referenced representing the people. I would say that people are getting what they want. For good or bad, the government is the people's. We put them there. Sure corporations have intervened, that's because people are more likely to vote for the corporate candidate. A large group of voters like 'shiny' things, and the non-corporate candidate isn't very shiny.

People bag on building codes until the bathtub falls through the floor and smashes Jimmy, then they want building codes. Look at Haiti after the quake to see a lack of codes. I think you're implying that I'm "evil" because I'm tolerating certain laws. I'd rather look at why the law was put in place and the process of how it came to be. I like to have issue w/particular laws rather than a blanket boo-hoo, the government is robbing me of my freedoms.

there was once a time in this country where a man could and would look at the world around him and the life he had and say "thank you God. Now I can take it from here."

But now, the masses - including you - look at the world and say "I don't want opportunity, I want security."

It's a basic ideological difference. I'd rather live in a world where people are responsible for themselves. If an individual fails, it's on them, not the government. But that isn't the way it is anymore.

Go Beavers

---

I live where it's smoke free and has been for awhile. The concerns about it hurting business turned out to be largely unfounded and it's seen as increasing business because more non-smoker go out.

Federal school loans increase access to school for those who wouldn't normally get them, so I'm fine with it.

The constitution didn't reference health and safety, it referenced representing the people. I would say that people are getting what they want. For good or bad, the government is the people's. We put them there. Sure corporations have intervened, that's because people are more likely to vote for the corporate candidate. A large group of voters like 'shiny' things, and the non-corporate candidate isn't very shiny.

People bag on building codes until the bathtub falls through the floor and smashes Jimmy, then they want building codes. Look at Haiti after the quake to see a lack of codes. I think you're implying that I'm "evil" because I'm tolerating certain laws. I'd rather look at why the law was put in place and the process of how it came to be. I like to have issue w/particular laws rather than a blanket boo-hoo, the government is robbing me of my freedoms.[/quote]

there was once a time in this country where a man could and would look at the world around him and the life he had and say "thank you God. Now I can take it from here."

But now, the masses - including you - look at the world and say "I don't want opportunity, I want security."

It's a basic ideological difference. I'd rather live in a world where people are responsible for themselves. If an individual fails, it's on them, not the government. But that isn't the way it is anymore.[/quote]

---

That's an expected assumption you're making about me seeing how you view things in black and white, when actually very few things are black and white, particularly when people are involved. It also makes sense that you would make mythological statements about our country's past and that people were so full of responsibility and strong work ethics. I do want opportunity, and I'm fully aware where my opportunity came from. I have a sense of what was created individually by me, my ancestors, my community, and my government. All of those factors played a role in my opportunity and success. I don't go around thinking everything I've done is a result of my individual hard work and that's it. Individual responsibility falls along a continuum, but continuums are hard to grasp in a black and white world. There's strong sense of individuality in our culture, but it doesn't mean it's real. P.S., it sound like you may be blaming the government for your business struggles, based on what you posted earlier in the thread.

WaveRyder

Go Beavers wrote:

---

I live where it's smoke free and has been for awhile. The concerns about it hurting business turned out to be largely unfounded and it's seen as increasing business because more non-smoker go out.

Federal school loans increase access to school for those who wouldn't normally get them, so I'm fine with it.

The constitution didn't reference health and safety, it referenced representing the people. I would say that people are getting what they want. For good or bad, the government is the people's. We put them there. Sure corporations have intervened, that's because people are more likely to vote for the corporate candidate. A large group of voters like 'shiny' things, and the non-corporate candidate isn't very shiny.

People bag on building codes until the bathtub falls through the floor and smashes Jimmy, then they want building codes. Look at Haiti after the quake to see a lack of codes. I think you're implying that I'm "evil" because I'm tolerating certain laws. I'd rather look at why the law was put in place and the process of how it came to be. I like to have issue w/particular laws rather than a blanket boo-hoo, the government is robbing me of my freedoms.

there was once a time in this country where a man could and would look at the world around him and the life he had and say "thank you God. Now I can take it from here."

But now, the masses - including you - look at the world and say "I don't want opportunity, I want security."

It's a basic ideological difference. I'd rather live in a world where people are responsible for themselves. If an individual fails, it's on them, not the government. But that isn't the way it is anymore.[/quote]

---

That's an expected assumption you're making about me seeing how you view things in black and white, when actually very few things are black and white, particularly when people are involved. It also makes sense that you would make mythological statements about our country's past and that people were so full of responsibility and strong work ethics. I do want opportunity, and I'm fully aware where my opportunity came from. I have a sense of what was created individually by me, my ancestors, my community, and my government. All of those factors played a role in my opportunity and success. I don't go around thinking everything I've done is a result of my individual hard work and that's it. Individual responsibility falls along a continuum, but continuums are hard to grasp in a black and white world. There's strong sense of individuality in our culture, but it doesn't mean it's real. P.S., it sound like you may be blaming the government for your business struggles, based on what you posted earlier in the thread.[/quote]

those were all merely examples. I am not a business owner. I am a student about to graduate with a political science and journalism degree. Right now, yes, I am as poor as poor gets.

I don't know how to articulate how i feel very well, but that's just it. When I look around and see nationalism dieing and an exponentially expanding government and it scares me.

And it really comes down to taxes. History says any great empire has crumble shortly after taxing its ppl beyond 25 percent of the nations gross domestic worth. In 1960 we were at 33 percent.

So Im not saying government shouldn't have any roles in our lives, just not nearly as big of a role as it plays now.

Go Beavers

there was once a time in this country where a man could and would look at the world around him and the life he had and say "thank you God. Now I can take it from here."

But now, the masses - including you - look at the world and say "I don't want opportunity, I want security."

It's a basic ideological difference. I'd rather live in a world where people are responsible for themselves. If an individual fails, it's on them, not the government. But that isn't the way it is anymore.[/quote]

---

That's an expected assumption you're making about me seeing how you view things in black and white, when actually very few things are black and white, particularly when people are involved. It also makes sense that you would make mythological statements about our country's past and that people were so full of responsibility and strong work ethics. I do want opportunity, and I'm fully aware where my opportunity came from. I have a sense of what was created individually by me, my ancestors, my community, and my government. All of those factors played a role in my opportunity and success. I don't go around thinking everything I've done is a result of my individual hard work and that's it. Individual responsibility falls along a continuum, but continuums are hard to grasp in a black and white world. There's strong sense of individuality in our culture, but it doesn't mean it's real. P.S., it sound like you may be blaming the government for your business struggles, based on what you posted earlier in the thread.[/quote]

those were all merely examples. I am not a business owner. I am a student about to graduate with a political science and journalism degree. Right now, yes, I am as poor as poor gets.

I don't know how to articulate how i feel very well, but that's just it. When I look around and see nationalism dieing and an exponentially expanding government and it scares me.

And it really comes down to taxes. History says any great empire has crumble shortly after taxing its ppl beyond 25 percent of the nations gross domestic worth. In 1960 we were at 33 percent.

So Im not saying government shouldn't have any roles in our lives, just not nearly as big of a role as it plays now.[/quote]

---

Federal tax looks around 15% of gdp, with total tax about 28%. There might be a correlation (low I'm sure) with taxes and crumbling empires, but correlation isn't causation, and the sample size of fallen empires is probably too low to draw firm conclusions on why they collapsed. People look back at history and grab at isolated pieces in order to build their argument, but then leave out other factors. Being scared just makes you susceptible to manipulation by fear mongers. America's version of nationalism needs to die. It's arrogant and gets us into wars.
You have to separate out what your problem is with government. Is it high taxes, the role it plays in our life through laws and regulation, or expanding government through budget increases? Again I come down to this: if you want lower taxes, what do want cut from the budget? And how much would that cut save?

---

Hugh Freaking Dillon

haffajappa wrote:

Our PM is taking another shot at a majority government (so they are speculating)
This starts to become a bi-annual process. What a waste of money for the exact same result every 2 years.

it wasn't his choice. he got defeated in a confidence vote after being held in contempt of parliament (first government in Canada to do that), so he had no choice but to dissolve parliament, which he's doing first thing tomorrow morning. I really hope we don't get ANOTHER minority government this time. nothing gets fucking done.

a two party system is stupid, but having no limits on how many parties you can have (Canada) create issues as well. it divides too many votes and we'll just keep ending up with minority (see: useless) governments over and over again.

WaveRyder

Go Beavers wrote:

there was once a time in this country where a man could and would look at the world around him and the life he had and say "thank you God. Now I can take it from here."

But now, the masses - including you - look at the world and say "I don't want opportunity, I want security."

It's a basic ideological difference. I'd rather live in a world where people are responsible for themselves. If an individual fails, it's on them, not the government. But that isn't the way it is anymore.

---

That's an expected assumption you're making about me seeing how you view things in black and white, when actually very few things are black and white, particularly when people are involved. It also makes sense that you would make mythological statements about our country's past and that people were so full of responsibility and strong work ethics. I do want opportunity, and I'm fully aware where my opportunity came from. I have a sense of what was created individually by me, my ancestors, my community, and my government. All of those factors played a role in my opportunity and success. I don't go around thinking everything I've done is a result of my individual hard work and that's it. Individual responsibility falls along a continuum, but continuums are hard to grasp in a black and white world. There's strong sense of individuality in our culture, but it doesn't mean it's real. P.S., it sound like you may be blaming the government for your business struggles, based on what you posted earlier in the thread.[/quote]

those were all merely examples. I am not a business owner. I am a student about to graduate with a political science and journalism degree. Right now, yes, I am as poor as poor gets.

I don't know how to articulate how i feel very well, but that's just it. When I look around and see nationalism dieing and an exponentially expanding government and it scares me.

And it really comes down to taxes. History says any great empire has crumble shortly after taxing its ppl beyond 25 percent of the nations gross domestic worth. In 1960 we were at 33 percent.

So Im not saying government shouldn't have any roles in our lives, just not nearly as big of a role as it plays now.[/quote]

---

Federal tax looks around 15% of gdp, with total tax about 28%. There might be a correlation (low I'm sure) with taxes and crumbling empires, but correlation isn't causation, and the sample size of fallen empires is probably too low to draw firm conclusions on why they collapsed. People look back at history and grab at isolated pieces in order to build their argument, but then leave out other factors. Being scared just makes you susceptible to manipulation by fear mongers. America's version of nationalism needs to die. It's arrogant and gets us into wars.
You have to separate out what your problem is with government. Is it high taxes, the role it plays in our life through laws and regulation, or expanding government through budget increases? Again I come down to this: if you want lower taxes, what do want cut from the budget? And how much would that cut save?

---

[/quote]

I agree with you that those who confuse nationalism with imperialism tend to lead the US into policing the world. Which leads me to your question what i would cut.

Id cut the defense budget and get our troops out almost all of the 135 countries we have soldiers in.

Go Beavers

---

That's an expected assumption you're making about me seeing how you view things in black and white, when actually very few things are black and white, particularly when people are involved. It also makes sense that you would make mythological statements about our country's past and that people were so full of responsibility and strong work ethics. I do want opportunity, and I'm fully aware where my opportunity came from. I have a sense of what was created individually by me, my ancestors, my community, and my government. All of those factors played a role in my opportunity and success. I don't go around thinking everything I've done is a result of my individual hard work and that's it. Individual responsibility falls along a continuum, but continuums are hard to grasp in a black and white world. There's strong sense of individuality in our culture, but it doesn't mean it's real. P.S., it sound like you may be blaming the government for your business struggles, based on what you posted earlier in the thread.[/quote]

those were all merely examples. I am not a business owner. I am a student about to graduate with a political science and journalism degree. Right now, yes, I am as poor as poor gets.

I don't know how to articulate how i feel very well, but that's just it. When I look around and see nationalism dieing and an exponentially expanding government and it scares me.

And it really comes down to taxes. History says any great empire has crumble shortly after taxing its ppl beyond 25 percent of the nations gross domestic worth. In 1960 we were at 33 percent.

So Im not saying government shouldn't have any roles in our lives, just not nearly as big of a role as it plays now.[/quote]

---

Federal tax looks around 15% of gdp, with total tax about 28%. There might be a correlation (low I'm sure) with taxes and crumbling empires, but correlation isn't causation, and the sample size of fallen empires is probably too low to draw firm conclusions on why they collapsed. People look back at history and grab at isolated pieces in order to build their argument, but then leave out other factors. Being scared just makes you susceptible to manipulation by fear mongers. America's version of nationalism needs to die. It's arrogant and gets us into wars.
You have to separate out what your problem is with government. Is it high taxes, the role it plays in our life through laws and regulation, or expanding government through budget increases? Again I come down to this: if you want lower taxes, what do want cut from the budget? And how much would that cut save?

---

[/quote]

I agree with you that those who confuse nationalism with imperialism tend to lead the US into policing the world. Which leads me to your question what i would cut.

Id cut the defense budget and get our troops out almost all of the 135 countries we have soldiers in.[/quote]

---

I say cut 100 to 120 billion a year from defense, for starts. I see we can agree on some things.---

WaveRyder

Go Beavers wrote:

I see we can agree on some things.---

I really think people always have more in common than not. It's just language gets in the way and creates a bottle neck on thoughts, especially when trying to communicate between people. Even now, I am finding it difficult to find the right words.

---

but could just be a side effect of far too long of a weekend.

WaveRyder

Ron Paul! Revolution! Bring us back our Constitution!!

pandora

I'm tired... exhausted and disappointed

so who will be carrying Ron Paul's torch as he exits from the arena?
Who is the new talent?

I really like VINNY GOOMBA"S words ... ALWAYS

I hope the new talent will have a chance to bring real change because this disillusionment
our country is beginning to feel will either bring more apathy and tuning out or more anger
and agression. Neither of which makes for 'the pursuit of happiness'.

And that's what I want to vote for.

mikepegg44

pandora wrote:

I'm tired... exhausted and disappointed

so who will be carrying Ron Paul's torch as he exits from the arena?
Who is the new talent?

I really like VINNY GOOMBA"S words ... ALWAYS

I hope the new talent will have a chance to bring real change because this disillusionment
our country is beginning to feel will either bring more apathy and tuning out or more anger
and agression. Neither of which makes for 'the pursuit of happiness'.

And that's what I want to vote for.

Honestly it won't be immediate, but it won't be only one person. There are thousands and thousands of young people who support Dr. Paul. Some will keep those beliefs throughout their life, some won't, but they are the future of the changing of the Neo-Con nonsense that is part of the destruction of this country. They are the future. I am excited when I here about kids interested in the system and changing it. Not changing in the sense that they want to give everyone everything...they just want a fair shake. There are ways you can get there...One of them is realizing our money isn't sound and needs to saved....if you don't save the dollar, you cannot save medicaid, social security, medicare, or anything else for that matter...part of saving the dollar is realizing that the FED is part of a system set up by government to rig the money.

WaveRyder

pandora wrote:

I'm tired... exhausted and disappointed

so who will be carrying Ron Paul's torch as he exits from the arena?
Who is the new talent?

I really like VINNY GOOMBA"S words ... ALWAYS

I hope the new talent will have a chance to bring real change because this disillusionment
our country is beginning to feel will either bring more apathy and tuning out or more anger
and agression. Neither of which makes for 'the pursuit of happiness'.

And that's what I want to vote for.

having little Paul waiting in the wings is huge. Rand is more articulate and well spoken and doesnt carry the baggage his father does. and he is just as incorruptible. Vote Paul - 2012, 2016, 2020, 2024......etc