Our society is beyond repairing we are steadly progressing further & further into animalistic exsistence ....we've become a numb mass ...
:(
I couldn't read it .... I don't want to know
this stuff is hitting home lately with my daughter's internship in
Forensic/Crime Scene Investigator at a local sherrifs dept ...
I'm glad she is much stronger than me...
she's gonna need to be
Our society is beyond repairing we are steadly progressing further & further into animalistic exsistence ....we've become a numb mass ...
:(
I couldn't read it .... I don't want to know
this stuff is hitting home lately with my daughter's internship in
Forensic/Crime Scene Investigator at a local sherrifs dept ...
I'm glad she is much stronger than me...
she's gonna need to be
Good luck to her my wife is a forensic nurse for the County where i live only for Rape cases and it really is so fucked up how people treat other people , that's why i believe we are just plummeting as a society ...
Our society is beyond repairing we are steadly progressing further & further into animalistic exsistence ....we've become a numb mass ...
:(
I couldn't read it .... I don't want to know
this stuff is hitting home lately with my daughter's internship in
Forensic/Crime Scene Investigator at a local sherrifs dept ...
I'm glad she is much stronger than me...
she's gonna need to be
Good luck to her my wife is a forensic nurse for the County where i live only for Rape cases and it really is so fucked up how people treat other people , that's why i believe we are just plummeting as a society ...
She is a hero and very strong...bless her heart
I agree so many who have no regard for another human being but what they can get from them
That is indeed sick and disgusting. If convicted, those guys should be executed (but they won't, since the US Supreme Court in their infinite wisdom :roll: said you can't execute people for raping children. Hopefully they will never see the outside of a prison cell for the rest of their worthless lives.
It is wise. The death penalty needs to be abolished. It's ineffective and morally wrong. But I guess it depends on what you think your country should stand for, too.
Our society is beyond repairing we are steadly progressing further & further into animalistic exsistence ....we've become a numb mass ...
Not really. Of course rape has been around for many thousands of years. Actually, people being disturbed by it is a good thing, as hard as it is to imagine its existence.
"Maturity or not I'm pretty sure she knew what she was doing," Robin Smith, 24, a cashier in Cleveland, said as she shopped this week."
This is pure class. Ain't no flies on that.
I hope this person gets flattened by a bus walking across the street. Then the bus driver can say, "Crosswalk or not, I think they knew what they were doing."
It's interesting the woman's comments come from a place of denial, as do the opposite comments that demonize the rapists. It's too much to grasp the enormity of what happened, so some people blame the victim because the good people of her community couldn't do something like this. Likewise, a person who did this must be some kind of monster, not human, and therefore should be killed. The best and the worst are all human. And even the same person might do a great thing, and then a week later do a horrible thing. It can be a lot to hold both those opposing elements in our brains, so we condemn, and therefore resolve the dissonance. But as an observer, I think we elevate ourselves when we can delay judgment. I'm not saying a free pass, I'm saying understanding.
Our society is beyond repairing we are steadly progressing further & further into animalistic exsistence ....we've become a numb mass ...
:(
I couldn't read it .... I don't want to know
this stuff is hitting home lately with my daughter's internship in
Forensic/Crime Scene Investigator at a local sherrifs dept ...
I'm glad she is much stronger than me...
she's gonna need to be
Good luck to her my wife is a forensic nurse for the County where i live only for Rape cases and it really is so fucked up how people treat other people , that's why i believe we are just plummeting as a society ...
God speed to both of them...they should both know that, as difficult as their jobs may be, we need people like them.
"Maturity or not I'm pretty sure she knew what she was doing," Robin Smith, 24, a cashier in Cleveland, said as she shopped this week."
This is pure class. Ain't no flies on that.
I hope this person gets flattened by a bus walking across the street. Then the bus driver can say, "Crosswalk or not, I think they knew what they were doing."
It's interesting the woman's comments come from a place of denial, as do the opposite comments that demonize the rapists. It's too much to grasp the enormity of what happened, so some people blame the victim because the good people of her community couldn't do something like this. Likewise, a person who did this must be some kind of monster, not human, and therefore should be killed. The best and the worst are all human. And even the same person might do a great thing, and then a week later do a horrible thing. It can be a lot to hold both those opposing elements in our brains, so we condemn, and therefore resolve the dissonance. But as an observer, I think we elevate ourselves when we can delay judgment. I'm not saying a free pass, I'm saying understanding.
Not much to understand in what those guys did. The only thing I understand is that there is pure evil in this world, and someone has to stand against it. As for the death penalty, I won't argue that with you because I know I won't change your mind. It's an issue with which I have struggled myself, and I've decided that I'm in favor of capital punishment, but it should be reserved for the worst of the worst, and these guys seem to fit the bill.
It's interesting the woman's comments come from a place of denial, as do the opposite comments that demonize the rapists. It's too much to grasp the enormity of what happened, so some people blame the victim because the good people of her community couldn't do something like this. Likewise, a person who did this must be some kind of monster, not human, and therefore should be killed. The best and the worst are all human. And even the same person might do a great thing, and then a week later do a horrible thing. It can be a lot to hold both those opposing elements in our brains, so we condemn, and therefore resolve the dissonance. But as an observer, I think we elevate ourselves when we can delay judgment. I'm not saying a free pass, I'm saying understanding.[/quote]
"Not much to understand in what those guys did. The only thing I understand is that there is pure evil in this world, and someone has to stand against it. As for the death penalty, I won't argue that with you because I know I won't change your mind. It's an issue with which I have struggled myself, and I've decided that I'm in favor of capital punishment, but it should be reserved for the worst of the worst, and these guys seem to fit the bill.[/quote]"
I think there's a lot to understand with everyone involved. Understanding what the victim went through and what would help her recovery; Understanding what the victim's parents are going through, what do they do with their feelings? How do they help their child?; What are the parent's of the rapists experiencing? Would they see their kid as evil, or still see the innocent 2 year old inside them? Understanding what the rapists were thinking, what was the motivator? How much bad have they done previously? How much good?; The friend of the rapist who he always had fun with his friend and can't imagine he could do this. etc..
I would say, as an observer like we are, to suspend judgment and attempt to understand each person's perspective in this horrible situation. That's what will elevate us as humans.
This sentence is significant:"The only thing I understand is that there is pure evil in this world, and someone has to stand against it." It seems like you favor the death penalty in this situation because it would say something about you if you didn't? Do you take a stand against "evil" for the greater good or is it to alleviate an internal struggle?
this stuff is hitting home lately with my daughter's internship in
Forensic/Crime Scene Investigator at a local sherrifs dept ...
I'm glad she is much stronger than me...
she's gonna need to be
Good luck to her my wife is a forensic nurse for the County where i live only for Rape cases and it really is so fucked up how people treat other people , that's why i believe we are just plummeting as a society ...
God speed to both of them...they should both know that, as difficult as their jobs may be, we need people like them.
exactly!
When my eyes opened this morning with the first morning light, I saw the new baby leaves on the trees out the patio door. Another springtime.
I thought of my children as always and then the earthquake and all the suffering.
And then I thought of what bad things might have happened overnight.....
sometimes I just want to hide.
But then I thought of this thread and Jose's wife.
How the everyday people in our world, the heros, keep this world from going to hell.
As long as we still have heros we will be alright....they have no idea how wonderful that is!
It's interesting the woman's comments come from a place of denial, as do the opposite comments that demonize the rapists. It's too much to grasp the enormity of what happened, so some people blame the victim because the good people of her community couldn't do something like this. Likewise, a person who did this must be some kind of monster, not human, and therefore should be killed. The best and the worst are all human. And even the same person might do a great thing, and then a week later do a horrible thing. It can be a lot to hold both those opposing elements in our brains, so we condemn, and therefore resolve the dissonance. But as an observer, I think we elevate ourselves when we can delay judgment. I'm not saying a free pass, I'm saying understanding.
"Not much to understand in what those guys did. The only thing I understand is that there is pure evil in this world, and someone has to stand against it. As for the death penalty, I won't argue that with you because I know I won't change your mind. It's an issue with which I have struggled myself, and I've decided that I'm in favor of capital punishment, but it should be reserved for the worst of the worst, and these guys seem to fit the bill.[/quote]"
I think there's a lot to understand with everyone involved. Understanding what the victim went through and what would help her recovery; Understanding what the victim's parents are going through, what do they do with their feelings? How do they help their child?; What are the parent's of the rapists experiencing? Would they see their kid as evil, or still see the innocent 2 year old inside them? Understanding what the rapists were thinking, what was the motivator? How much bad have they done previously? How much good?; The friend of the rapist who he always had fun with his friend and can't imagine he could do this. etc..
I would say, as an observer like we are, to suspend judgment and attempt to understand each person's perspective in this horrible situation. That's what will elevate us as humans.
This sentence is significant:"The only thing I understand is that there is pure evil in this world, and someone has to stand against it." It seems like you favor the death penalty in this situation because it would say something about you if you didn't? Do you take a stand against "evil" for the greater good or is it to alleviate an internal struggle?[/quote]
Like I said, the death penalty is appropriate in this case because this is the worst of the worst. Can you think of a more horrible crime?
As for demonizing the rapists, they demonized themselves by their actions. You say we should reserve judgment, and I respect that, but why? Because once the facts come in, they may reveal some justification for their actions? There are NO justifications for this behavior.
All your talk of understanding makes you sound like a college student (not that there's anything wrong with that....I was once one myself). You sound very Ivory Tower and detached from the real world. I work with rape victims all the time to help put animals like this behind bars, so I have seen first-hand the effects of child sexual abuse. Could you look a child victim like this in the eye and explain to her the need to "understand" her attackers? I know I couldn't.
My stomach is utterly churning after reading that.I work with children being abused in all forms and it never ceases to amaze and sicken me when I read or hear statements like this ... and it somehow feels worse coming from a women
"Maturity or not I'm pretty sure she knew what she was doing," Robin Smith, 24, a cashier in Cleveland, said as she shopped this week.
There is no more I can say that hasn't already been so well said by other posters
“There should be a place where only the things you want to happen, happen”
I saw something lovely on the early local news....
A young man returned from active duty overseas to find his beloved 1966 Charger
had been totally refurbished by an elderly gentleman who enjoys the hobby.
Parts and labor were all donated .... the car values at 90,000. Man is was a beauty!
The young man was speechless and all he had to give was the military coin
he was given when he retired which he gladly did.
The hugs were awesome the tears even more so.
There are some very generous wonderful and loving people in this world
that go out of their way to make life happier for others
I am grateful for the good news and love that I find and it outweighs the bad.
I echo everyone's disgust here at what was done to that girl. I disagree with some other points - particularly the notion that the perpetrators should be executed. Personally, I oppose the death penalty in all circumstances, even "the worst of the worst". To me, a society needs to be better than lowering itself to killing people, regardless of how despicable those people have behaved. But that's just me & it's not the point I want to make here.
What I actually want to say is this: It is very heartening to hear the death penalty being debated in a calm, rational & respectful fashion - especially considering this is such an emotive case. Usually when that issue arises on this board it polarises people and descends into unthinking chaos pretty quick.
So I just wanted to applaud bennett13 & Go Beavers for their open-minded debate. I wish that was the way more often on the MT. Keep it up.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
i posted in the duplicate of this thread on the first day, but being a duplicate it was removed, and i don't want to go through all that i had to say at the time, its too emotional
but, at the risk of getting started all over again,
the girl is 11
that's all that needs to be said
i have 3 grown kids (2 girls and a boy) and now have 5 grandbaby boys
one of which ( a step grandchild, of course, i'm not old enough to have an actual biological 11 yo grandchild, thank you very much ) is 11
its a very difficult age..they are starting to realize that they can be independent
the preteens are hard to control..defiant
and while all of my being wants to scream "where were her parents!"
i do understand how an 11 year old can be
and how parents, if they've never dealt with a preteen before,
might not know what they could possibly be up to
i'm not talking about to the degree here in this case
just that they will try to exercise independence and be places they are not supposed to be
and try things that they are not supposed to be trying
that's normal
but in this case, reading between the lines,
and sometimes right there in plain text for all to see
i do have to say
where the heck were this girl's parents?
what were they thinking?
she was wearing makeup..she's 11!
she was dressing provocatively..she's 11!
11...not 16....
she was out apparently for long intervals without any supervision..she's 11!
she was (according to reports) actively engaging in sexual acts with multiple partners on multiple occasions
WAIT..don't get me wrong..i am NOT saying that her dress, or her makeup, or even the fact that she had participated in the past, in any way shape or form gave anyone the right to violate her ..not any right at all
what i'm saying, is why was she in this situation in the first place?
and why repeatedly?
things happen, yes
but apparently things happened here, quite a lot
it all sounds terribly wrong to me
all the way round
the article says that she's been removed from the home and has limited parental contact
sounds like that's at least one step to the positive side
i realize, yes i do..certainly, that parenting if THE toughest job on the face of this planet
but geez, its your responsibility to keep your child as safe as you can
if you don't, who will?
peace,
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
I echo everyone's disgust here at what was done to that girl. I disagree with some other points - particularly the notion that the perpetrators should be executed. Personally, I oppose the death penalty in all circumstances, even "the worst of the worst". To me, a society needs to be better than lowering itself to killing people, regardless of how despicable those people have behaved. But that's just me & it's not the point I want to make here.
What I actually want to say is this: It is very heartening to hear the death penalty being debated in a calm, rational & respectful fashion - especially considering this is such an emotive case. Usually when that issue arises on this board it polarises people and descends into unthinking chaos pretty quick.
So I just wanted to applaud bennett13 & Go Beavers for their open-minded debate. I wish that was the way more often on the MT. Keep it up.
Thank you for that comment. I also applaud Go Beavers for not immediately resorting to calling me an idiot or a bigot or any of the other lovely names I've been called on the MT. (I sometimes feel that if we were on a real physically moving train, there are people here that would conspire to push me off...while it's crossing a bridge).
""Like I said, the death penalty is appropriate in this case because this is the worst of the worst. Can you think of a more horrible crime?
As for demonizing the rapists, they demonized themselves by their actions. You say we should reserve judgment, and I respect that, but why? Because once the facts come in, they may reveal some justification for their actions? There are NO justifications for this behavior.
All your talk of understanding makes you sound like a college student (not that there's anything wrong with that....I was once one myself). You sound very Ivory Tower and detached from the real world. I work with rape victims all the time to help put animals like this behind bars, so I have seen first-hand the effects of child sexual abuse. Could you look a child victim like this in the eye and explain to her the need to "understand" her attackers? I know I couldn't.[/quote]"
I take the college student comment as a compliment, because it means I've maintained my sense of idealism, all the while being very much attached to the "real world". I'm 40 and have worked many years with offenders, both sex offenders and non, as well as victims of sexual abuse, and also sex offenders who were victims themselves. My daily work is almost always done in an ambiguous gray area, and rarely black and white. I found that demonizing others does little to promote healing and movement through a highly emotional issue. In your work, it makes sense to, because it's more likely to get a conviction. The reality in this situation is that the rapists/offenders are likely to get from 2-20 years locked up. People can say 'lock em up for life and kill 'em', but that's not "reality". Ideally, they need to be dealt with in a way to decrease recidivism in the future, and to help the victim through her trauma. I've seen reconciliation with victim's happen, where, in a sense, the victim is trying to understand the offender, because the lack of understanding is putting them in emotional pain. There are many questions and self-blame that sometimes the offender can alleviate (this occurring at some point in the future). I don't look a victim in the eye and tell them they "need" to do anything, I look them in the eye and listen to them.
In a sense, demonizing sex offenders can increase it's occurrence, because as you know, most offenders are family/acquaintances. Uncle Bill isn't the non-human monster offenders are labeled as, so he's fine to baby-sit the kids. See where I'm going? I also think if the girl was murdered it would be a worse crime.
""Like I said, the death penalty is appropriate in this case because this is the worst of the worst. Can you think of a more horrible crime?
As for demonizing the rapists, they demonized themselves by their actions. You say we should reserve judgment, and I respect that, but why? Because once the facts come in, they may reveal some justification for their actions? There are NO justifications for this behavior.
All your talk of understanding makes you sound like a college student (not that there's anything wrong with that....I was once one myself). You sound very Ivory Tower and detached from the real world. I work with rape victims all the time to help put animals like this behind bars, so I have seen first-hand the effects of child sexual abuse. Could you look a child victim like this in the eye and explain to her the need to "understand" her attackers? I know I couldn't.
"
I take the college student comment as a compliment, because it means I've maintained my sense of idealism, all the while being very much attached to the "real world". I'm 40 and have worked many years with offenders, both sex offenders and non, as well as victims of sexual abuse, and also sex offenders who were victims themselves. My daily work is almost always done in an ambiguous gray area, and rarely black and white. I found that demonizing others does little to promote healing and movement through a highly emotional issue. In your work, it makes sense to, because it's more likely to get a conviction. The reality in this situation is that the rapists/offenders are likely to get from 2-20 years locked up. People can say 'lock em up for life and kill 'em', but that's not "reality". Ideally, they need to be dealt with in a way to decrease recidivism in the future, and to help the victim through her trauma. I've seen reconciliation with victim's happen, where, in a sense, the victim is trying to understand the offender, because the lack of understanding is putting them in emotional pain. There are many questions and self-blame that sometimes the offender can alleviate (this occurring at some point in the future). I don't look a victim in the eye and tell them they "need" to do anything, I look them in the eye and listen to them.
In a sense, demonizing sex offenders can increase it's occurrence, because as you know, most offenders are family/acquaintances. Uncle Bill isn't the non-human monster offenders are labeled as, so he's fine to baby-sit the kids. See where I'm going? I also think if the girl was murdered it would be a worse crime.
[/quote]
Aha! Now I see the root of our disagreement. You must be a counselor or therapist of some kind. I think that's great, because we need people like you to help victims of sexual abuse, so I applaud you. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not even close to sensitive enough to do that kind of work. You're right...I demonize and villify people like this because it helps me get a conviction, but I don't think that's a bad thing at all. After all, I don't do my job just to jack up my own conviction statistics, but to protect society from those that would do them harm, as well as to punish those that have done them harm.
As for the 2-20 comment, I may have to disagree with you there. While I'm sure they won't all get life, this did happen in Texas. I live and work in Louisiana, and can say that Texas is one of the few states that are tougher on crime than we are (please excuse the vast overgeneralization). Obviously, each offender will be different, so they'll look at each one's criminal history, degree of involvment in the crime and (first and foremost, from a prosecutorial perspective) the strength of the evidence against them.
On a side note, I have to say it's a breath of fresh air to debate in a reasonable manner on this forum. On some issues, reasonable minds just have to agree to disagree. Just keep doing the best you can in the work you do, and I'll do the same.
Cheers!
Really????? WTF!!! I agree, certainly doesn't give those animals any right to have done what they did. As if you let your 11 year old wear make-up and act like an adult when she's just a baby. Sad.
i posted in the duplicate of this thread on the first day, but being a duplicate it was removed, and i don't want to go through all that i had to say at the time, its too emotional
but, at the risk of getting started all over again,
the girl is 11
that's all that needs to be said
i have 3 grown kids (2 girls and a boy) and now have 5 grandbaby boys
one of which ( a step grandchild, of course, i'm not old enough to have an actual biological 11 yo grandchild, thank you very much ) is 11
its a very difficult age..they are starting to realize that they can be independent
the preteens are hard to control..defiant
and while all of my being wants to scream "where were her parents!"
i do understand how an 11 year old can be
and how parents, if they've never dealt with a preteen before,
might not know what they could possibly be up to
i'm not talking about to the degree here in this case
just that they will try to exercise independence and be places they are not supposed to be
and try things that they are not supposed to be trying
that's normal
but in this case, reading between the lines,
and sometimes right there in plain text for all to see
i do have to say
where the heck were this girl's parents?
what were they thinking?
she was wearing makeup..she's 11!
she was dressing provocatively..she's 11!
11...not 16....
she was out apparently for long intervals without any supervision..she's 11!
she was (according to reports) actively engaging in sexual acts with multiple partners on multiple occasions
WAIT..don't get me wrong..i am NOT saying that her dress, or her makeup, or even the fact that she had participated in the past, in any way shape or form gave anyone the right to violate her ..not any right at all
what i'm saying, is why was she in this situation in the first place?
and why repeatedly?
things happen, yes
but apparently things happened here, quite a lot
it all sounds terribly wrong to me
all the way round
the article says that she's been removed from the home and has limited parental contact
sounds like that's at least one step to the positive side
i realize, yes i do..certainly, that parenting if THE toughest job on the face of this planet
but geez, its your responsibility to keep your child as safe as you can
if you don't, who will?
“ "Thank you Palestrina. It’s a wonderful evening, it’s great to be here and I wanna dedicate you a super sexy song." " (last words of Mark Sandman of Morphine)
Adelaide 1998
Adelaide 2003
Adelaide 2006 night 1
Adelaide 2006 night 2
Adelaide 2009
Melbourne 2009
Christchurch NZ 2009
Eddie Vedder, Adelaide 2011
PJ20 USA 2011 night 1
PJ20 USA 2011 night 2
Adelaide BIG DAY OUT 2014
I take the college student comment as a compliment, because it means I've maintained my sense of idealism, all the while being very much attached to the "real world". I'm 40 and have worked many years with offenders, both sex offenders and non, as well as victims of sexual abuse, and also sex offenders who were victims themselves. My daily work is almost always done in an ambiguous gray area, and rarely black and white. I found that demonizing others does little to promote healing and movement through a highly emotional issue. In your work, it makes sense to, because it's more likely to get a conviction. The reality in this situation is that the rapists/offenders are likely to get from 2-20 years locked up. People can say 'lock em up for life and kill 'em', but that's not "reality". Ideally, they need to be dealt with in a way to decrease recidivism in the future, and to help the victim through her trauma. I've seen reconciliation with victim's happen, where, in a sense, the victim is trying to understand the offender, because the lack of understanding is putting them in emotional pain. There are many questions and self-blame that sometimes the offender can alleviate (this occurring at some point in the future). I don't look a victim in the eye and tell them they "need" to do anything, I look them in the eye and listen to them.
In a sense, demonizing sex offenders can increase it's occurrence, because as you know, most offenders are family/acquaintances. Uncle Bill isn't the non-human monster offenders are labeled as, so he's fine to baby-sit the kids. See where I'm going? I also think if the girl was murdered it would be a worse crime.
[/quote]
"Aha! Now I see the root of our disagreement. You must be a counselor or therapist of some kind. I think that's great, because we need people like you to help victims of sexual abuse, so I applaud you. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not even close to sensitive enough to do that kind of work. You're right...I demonize and villify people like this because it helps me get a conviction, but I don't think that's a bad thing at all. After all, I don't do my job just to jack up my own conviction statistics, but to protect society from those that would do them harm, as well as to punish those that have done them harm.
As for the 2-20 comment, I may have to disagree with you there. While I'm sure they won't all get life, this did happen in Texas. I live and work in Louisiana, and can say that Texas is one of the few states that are tougher on crime than we are (please excuse the vast overgeneralization). Obviously, each offender will be different, so they'll look at each one's criminal history, degree of involvment in the crime and (first and foremost, from a prosecutorial perspective) the strength of the evidence against them.
On a side note, I have to say it's a breath of fresh air to debate in a reasonable manner on this forum. On some issues, reasonable minds just have to agree to disagree. Just keep doing the best you can in the work you do, and I'll do the same.
Cheers![/quote]"
You're right on the therapist call. Interesting how we both work for the betterment of society and protection of others through different routes.
Something tells me if George W. Bush were eligible for the death penalty, there would be some changes in opinion here!
Not me! I think a more appropriate punishment for him would be to sit in a prison cell, and be visited each hour by another mother of an individual person who died under his command, be they Iraqi, Afghani or American, and to have to listen to each and every one of their losses.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
Something tells me if George W. Bush were eligible for the death penalty, there would be some changes in opinion here!
Not me! I think a more appropriate punishment for him would be to sit in a prison cell, and be visited each hour by another mother of an individual person who died under his command, be they Iraqi, Afghani or American, and to have to listen to each and every one of their losses.
Well said
“There should be a place where only the things you want to happen, happen”
Comments
I couldn't read it .... I don't want to know
this stuff is hitting home lately with my daughter's internship in
Forensic/Crime Scene Investigator at a local sherrifs dept ...
I'm glad she is much stronger than me...
she's gonna need to be
Good luck to her my wife is a forensic nurse for the County where i live only for Rape cases and it really is so fucked up how people treat other people , that's why i believe we are just plummeting as a society ...
I agree so many who have no regard for another human being but what they can get from them
It is wise. The death penalty needs to be abolished. It's ineffective and morally wrong. But I guess it depends on what you think your country should stand for, too.
Not really. Of course rape has been around for many thousands of years. Actually, people being disturbed by it is a good thing, as hard as it is to imagine its existence.
It's interesting the woman's comments come from a place of denial, as do the opposite comments that demonize the rapists. It's too much to grasp the enormity of what happened, so some people blame the victim because the good people of her community couldn't do something like this. Likewise, a person who did this must be some kind of monster, not human, and therefore should be killed. The best and the worst are all human. And even the same person might do a great thing, and then a week later do a horrible thing. It can be a lot to hold both those opposing elements in our brains, so we condemn, and therefore resolve the dissonance. But as an observer, I think we elevate ourselves when we can delay judgment. I'm not saying a free pass, I'm saying understanding.
God speed to both of them...they should both know that, as difficult as their jobs may be, we need people like them.
Not much to understand in what those guys did. The only thing I understand is that there is pure evil in this world, and someone has to stand against it. As for the death penalty, I won't argue that with you because I know I won't change your mind. It's an issue with which I have struggled myself, and I've decided that I'm in favor of capital punishment, but it should be reserved for the worst of the worst, and these guys seem to fit the bill.
"Not much to understand in what those guys did. The only thing I understand is that there is pure evil in this world, and someone has to stand against it. As for the death penalty, I won't argue that with you because I know I won't change your mind. It's an issue with which I have struggled myself, and I've decided that I'm in favor of capital punishment, but it should be reserved for the worst of the worst, and these guys seem to fit the bill.[/quote]"
I think there's a lot to understand with everyone involved. Understanding what the victim went through and what would help her recovery; Understanding what the victim's parents are going through, what do they do with their feelings? How do they help their child?; What are the parent's of the rapists experiencing? Would they see their kid as evil, or still see the innocent 2 year old inside them? Understanding what the rapists were thinking, what was the motivator? How much bad have they done previously? How much good?; The friend of the rapist who he always had fun with his friend and can't imagine he could do this. etc..
I would say, as an observer like we are, to suspend judgment and attempt to understand each person's perspective in this horrible situation. That's what will elevate us as humans.
This sentence is significant:"The only thing I understand is that there is pure evil in this world, and someone has to stand against it." It seems like you favor the death penalty in this situation because it would say something about you if you didn't? Do you take a stand against "evil" for the greater good or is it to alleviate an internal struggle?
are you serious???
the girl is 11 years old. shes a child. she imitates what she sees without thought of consequence. she had no idea what she was doing.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
exactly!
When my eyes opened this morning with the first morning light, I saw the new baby leaves on the trees out the patio door. Another springtime.
I thought of my children as always and then the earthquake and all the suffering.
And then I thought of what bad things might have happened overnight.....
sometimes I just want to hide.
But then I thought of this thread and Jose's wife.
How the everyday people in our world, the heros, keep this world from going to hell.
As long as we still have heros we will be alright....they have no idea how wonderful that is!
"Not much to understand in what those guys did. The only thing I understand is that there is pure evil in this world, and someone has to stand against it. As for the death penalty, I won't argue that with you because I know I won't change your mind. It's an issue with which I have struggled myself, and I've decided that I'm in favor of capital punishment, but it should be reserved for the worst of the worst, and these guys seem to fit the bill.[/quote]"
I think there's a lot to understand with everyone involved. Understanding what the victim went through and what would help her recovery; Understanding what the victim's parents are going through, what do they do with their feelings? How do they help their child?; What are the parent's of the rapists experiencing? Would they see their kid as evil, or still see the innocent 2 year old inside them? Understanding what the rapists were thinking, what was the motivator? How much bad have they done previously? How much good?; The friend of the rapist who he always had fun with his friend and can't imagine he could do this. etc..
I would say, as an observer like we are, to suspend judgment and attempt to understand each person's perspective in this horrible situation. That's what will elevate us as humans.
This sentence is significant:"The only thing I understand is that there is pure evil in this world, and someone has to stand against it." It seems like you favor the death penalty in this situation because it would say something about you if you didn't? Do you take a stand against "evil" for the greater good or is it to alleviate an internal struggle?[/quote]
Like I said, the death penalty is appropriate in this case because this is the worst of the worst. Can you think of a more horrible crime?
As for demonizing the rapists, they demonized themselves by their actions. You say we should reserve judgment, and I respect that, but why? Because once the facts come in, they may reveal some justification for their actions? There are NO justifications for this behavior.
All your talk of understanding makes you sound like a college student (not that there's anything wrong with that....I was once one myself). You sound very Ivory Tower and detached from the real world. I work with rape victims all the time to help put animals like this behind bars, so I have seen first-hand the effects of child sexual abuse. Could you look a child victim like this in the eye and explain to her the need to "understand" her attackers? I know I couldn't.
There is no more I can say that hasn't already been so well said by other posters
A young man returned from active duty overseas to find his beloved 1966 Charger
had been totally refurbished by an elderly gentleman who enjoys the hobby.
Parts and labor were all donated .... the car values at 90,000. Man is was a beauty!
The young man was speechless and all he had to give was the military coin
he was given when he retired which he gladly did.
The hugs were awesome the tears even more so.
There are some very generous wonderful and loving people in this world
that go out of their way to make life happier for others
I am grateful for the good news and love that I find and it outweighs the bad.
What I actually want to say is this: It is very heartening to hear the death penalty being debated in a calm, rational & respectful fashion - especially considering this is such an emotive case. Usually when that issue arises on this board it polarises people and descends into unthinking chaos pretty quick.
So I just wanted to applaud bennett13 & Go Beavers for their open-minded debate. I wish that was the way more often on the MT. Keep it up.
96: Cork, Dublin
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09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
but, at the risk of getting started all over again,
the girl is 11
that's all that needs to be said
i have 3 grown kids (2 girls and a boy) and now have 5 grandbaby boys
one of which ( a step grandchild, of course, i'm not old enough to have an actual biological 11 yo grandchild, thank you very much ) is 11
its a very difficult age..they are starting to realize that they can be independent
the preteens are hard to control..defiant
and while all of my being wants to scream "where were her parents!"
i do understand how an 11 year old can be
and how parents, if they've never dealt with a preteen before,
might not know what they could possibly be up to
i'm not talking about to the degree here in this case
just that they will try to exercise independence and be places they are not supposed to be
and try things that they are not supposed to be trying
that's normal
but in this case, reading between the lines,
and sometimes right there in plain text for all to see
i do have to say
where the heck were this girl's parents?
what were they thinking?
she was wearing makeup..she's 11!
she was dressing provocatively..she's 11!
11...not 16....
she was out apparently for long intervals without any supervision..she's 11!
she was (according to reports) actively engaging in sexual acts with multiple partners on multiple occasions
WAIT..don't get me wrong..i am NOT saying that her dress, or her makeup, or even the fact that she had participated in the past, in any way shape or form gave anyone the right to violate her ..not any right at all
what i'm saying, is why was she in this situation in the first place?
and why repeatedly?
things happen, yes
but apparently things happened here, quite a lot
it all sounds terribly wrong to me
all the way round
the article says that she's been removed from the home and has limited parental contact
sounds like that's at least one step to the positive side
i realize, yes i do..certainly, that parenting if THE toughest job on the face of this planet
but geez, its your responsibility to keep your child as safe as you can
if you don't, who will?
jo
http://www.Etsy.com/Shop/SimpleEarthCreations
"How I choose to feel is how I am." ~ EV/MMc
"Some people hear their own inner voices with great clearness and they live by what they hear. Such people become crazy, or they become legends." ~ One Stab ~
Thank you for that comment. I also applaud Go Beavers for not immediately resorting to calling me an idiot or a bigot or any of the other lovely names I've been called on the MT. (I sometimes feel that if we were on a real physically moving train, there are people here that would conspire to push me off...while it's crossing a bridge).
Even although reading about this event sickened me to the very pit of my stomach I totally agree with your point made here.
As for demonizing the rapists, they demonized themselves by their actions. You say we should reserve judgment, and I respect that, but why? Because once the facts come in, they may reveal some justification for their actions? There are NO justifications for this behavior.
All your talk of understanding makes you sound like a college student (not that there's anything wrong with that....I was once one myself). You sound very Ivory Tower and detached from the real world. I work with rape victims all the time to help put animals like this behind bars, so I have seen first-hand the effects of child sexual abuse. Could you look a child victim like this in the eye and explain to her the need to "understand" her attackers? I know I couldn't.[/quote]"
I take the college student comment as a compliment, because it means I've maintained my sense of idealism, all the while being very much attached to the "real world". I'm 40 and have worked many years with offenders, both sex offenders and non, as well as victims of sexual abuse, and also sex offenders who were victims themselves. My daily work is almost always done in an ambiguous gray area, and rarely black and white. I found that demonizing others does little to promote healing and movement through a highly emotional issue. In your work, it makes sense to, because it's more likely to get a conviction. The reality in this situation is that the rapists/offenders are likely to get from 2-20 years locked up. People can say 'lock em up for life and kill 'em', but that's not "reality". Ideally, they need to be dealt with in a way to decrease recidivism in the future, and to help the victim through her trauma. I've seen reconciliation with victim's happen, where, in a sense, the victim is trying to understand the offender, because the lack of understanding is putting them in emotional pain. There are many questions and self-blame that sometimes the offender can alleviate (this occurring at some point in the future). I don't look a victim in the eye and tell them they "need" to do anything, I look them in the eye and listen to them.
In a sense, demonizing sex offenders can increase it's occurrence, because as you know, most offenders are family/acquaintances. Uncle Bill isn't the non-human monster offenders are labeled as, so he's fine to baby-sit the kids. See where I'm going? I also think if the girl was murdered it would be a worse crime.
I take the college student comment as a compliment, because it means I've maintained my sense of idealism, all the while being very much attached to the "real world". I'm 40 and have worked many years with offenders, both sex offenders and non, as well as victims of sexual abuse, and also sex offenders who were victims themselves. My daily work is almost always done in an ambiguous gray area, and rarely black and white. I found that demonizing others does little to promote healing and movement through a highly emotional issue. In your work, it makes sense to, because it's more likely to get a conviction. The reality in this situation is that the rapists/offenders are likely to get from 2-20 years locked up. People can say 'lock em up for life and kill 'em', but that's not "reality". Ideally, they need to be dealt with in a way to decrease recidivism in the future, and to help the victim through her trauma. I've seen reconciliation with victim's happen, where, in a sense, the victim is trying to understand the offender, because the lack of understanding is putting them in emotional pain. There are many questions and self-blame that sometimes the offender can alleviate (this occurring at some point in the future). I don't look a victim in the eye and tell them they "need" to do anything, I look them in the eye and listen to them.
In a sense, demonizing sex offenders can increase it's occurrence, because as you know, most offenders are family/acquaintances. Uncle Bill isn't the non-human monster offenders are labeled as, so he's fine to baby-sit the kids. See where I'm going? I also think if the girl was murdered it would be a worse crime.
[/quote]
Aha! Now I see the root of our disagreement. You must be a counselor or therapist of some kind. I think that's great, because we need people like you to help victims of sexual abuse, so I applaud you. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not even close to sensitive enough to do that kind of work. You're right...I demonize and villify people like this because it helps me get a conviction, but I don't think that's a bad thing at all. After all, I don't do my job just to jack up my own conviction statistics, but to protect society from those that would do them harm, as well as to punish those that have done them harm.
As for the 2-20 comment, I may have to disagree with you there. While I'm sure they won't all get life, this did happen in Texas. I live and work in Louisiana, and can say that Texas is one of the few states that are tougher on crime than we are (please excuse the vast overgeneralization). Obviously, each offender will be different, so they'll look at each one's criminal history, degree of involvment in the crime and (first and foremost, from a prosecutorial perspective) the strength of the evidence against them.
On a side note, I have to say it's a breath of fresh air to debate in a reasonable manner on this forum. On some issues, reasonable minds just have to agree to disagree. Just keep doing the best you can in the work you do, and I'll do the same.
Cheers!
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I take the college student comment as a compliment, because it means I've maintained my sense of idealism, all the while being very much attached to the "real world". I'm 40 and have worked many years with offenders, both sex offenders and non, as well as victims of sexual abuse, and also sex offenders who were victims themselves. My daily work is almost always done in an ambiguous gray area, and rarely black and white. I found that demonizing others does little to promote healing and movement through a highly emotional issue. In your work, it makes sense to, because it's more likely to get a conviction. The reality in this situation is that the rapists/offenders are likely to get from 2-20 years locked up. People can say 'lock em up for life and kill 'em', but that's not "reality". Ideally, they need to be dealt with in a way to decrease recidivism in the future, and to help the victim through her trauma. I've seen reconciliation with victim's happen, where, in a sense, the victim is trying to understand the offender, because the lack of understanding is putting them in emotional pain. There are many questions and self-blame that sometimes the offender can alleviate (this occurring at some point in the future). I don't look a victim in the eye and tell them they "need" to do anything, I look them in the eye and listen to them.
In a sense, demonizing sex offenders can increase it's occurrence, because as you know, most offenders are family/acquaintances. Uncle Bill isn't the non-human monster offenders are labeled as, so he's fine to baby-sit the kids. See where I'm going? I also think if the girl was murdered it would be a worse crime.
[/quote]
"Aha! Now I see the root of our disagreement. You must be a counselor or therapist of some kind. I think that's great, because we need people like you to help victims of sexual abuse, so I applaud you. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not even close to sensitive enough to do that kind of work. You're right...I demonize and villify people like this because it helps me get a conviction, but I don't think that's a bad thing at all. After all, I don't do my job just to jack up my own conviction statistics, but to protect society from those that would do them harm, as well as to punish those that have done them harm.
As for the 2-20 comment, I may have to disagree with you there. While I'm sure they won't all get life, this did happen in Texas. I live and work in Louisiana, and can say that Texas is one of the few states that are tougher on crime than we are (please excuse the vast overgeneralization). Obviously, each offender will be different, so they'll look at each one's criminal history, degree of involvment in the crime and (first and foremost, from a prosecutorial perspective) the strength of the evidence against them.
On a side note, I have to say it's a breath of fresh air to debate in a reasonable manner on this forum. On some issues, reasonable minds just have to agree to disagree. Just keep doing the best you can in the work you do, and I'll do the same.
Cheers![/quote]"
You're right on the therapist call. Interesting how we both work for the betterment of society and protection of others through different routes.
Not me! I think a more appropriate punishment for him would be to sit in a prison cell, and be visited each hour by another mother of an individual person who died under his command, be they Iraqi, Afghani or American, and to have to listen to each and every one of their losses.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2