CD-R Lifespan *PJ-related*

CrookedLittleVein

Been contemplating getting the 2008, 2009 and 2010 Bootleg Box Sets, but my main concern is the lifespan of CD-Rs. I know Kufala uses Taiyo-Yudens, but I've read somewhere that the average max for those is about 10 years.

So I'm just wondering if it's even worth getting these if they're not gonna work down the road...

jimbojones1138

i wasnt aware cdrs had life spans... :shock:

mookeywrench

In another post they said they will replace them free of cost no matter what.

jimbojones1138

mookeywrench wrote:

In another post they said they will replace them free of cost no matter what.

considering kufala is still even around in 10 yrs

pjradio

CrookedLittleVein wrote:

the average max for those is about 10 years.

what happens after 10 yrs?...sound degradation?

mookeywrench

pjradio wrote:

CrookedLittleVein wrote:

the average max for those is about 10 years.

what happens after 10 yrs?...sound degradation?

oxidation > rust > skipping

mookeywrench

jimbojones1138 wrote:

mookeywrench wrote:

In another post they said they will replace them free of cost no matter what.

considering kufala is still even around in 10 yrs

yeah....nothing I'd buy.

Bushleaguer28

mookeywrench wrote:

pjradio wrote:

CrookedLittleVein wrote:

the average max for those is about 10 years.

what happens after 10 yrs?...sound degradation?

oxidation > rust > skipping

Is that just a problem with CDRs or with all CDs?

mookeywrench

Bushleaguer28 wrote:

Is that just a problem with CDRs or with all CDs?

You can get 25-30 years with a CD

CrookedLittleVein

Did some digging around and found this article... it's a bit dated but now I'm even more concerned.

"Unlike pressed original CDs, burned CDs have a relatively short life span of between two to five years, depending on the quality of the CD,"

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/ ... burned_CDs

CrookedLittleVein

And this one confirms the average 10 year lifespan of an unrecorded CD-R...

http://www.osta.org/technology/cdqa13.htm

pdalowsky

Kufalas post may assist you

This is perception not a fact. In 2001 you would have been making a valid point but technology has advanced quite a bit in the last 10 years. It is the same data on the disc reproducing the audio so there is no quality difference between the audio quality in a pressed disc vs. the discs that KUFALA produces. Durability of a disc image replicated disc(what KUFALA does) vs a pressed disc can be questioned thus our lifetime replacement guarantee. If we pressed CD's for these release the prices would increase and we would not offer the replacement service. Plus we would then have to deal with inventory which would increase costs both on our end and to you the fans.

Another poster commented about blank discs costing $0.10. While you can buy blanks for that price the quality is crap. We use Taiyo Yuden blanks which cost about 3X what the poster referenced and if you a consumer were to buy them in a batch of 100 at retail it would cost 10X per disc what the poster referenced. They are made in Japan so the producer of the discs can not pollute at will like they can in Indian (where the cheapest blank CD's are produced). I guess we can blame walmart for creating a false reality of economics by not charging the true costs of the goods being sold. Sure you can produce a shirt for $2.00 but again the quality is crap, it's produced with child slave labor and will fall apart after one washing. Again the cost of producing a quality shirt not made by slave labor costs about 3-4X more than what the poster referenced, something I am sure Pearl Jam takes into consideration when selecting their clothing vendors. And after years of weekly wearing and washing my PJ shirts are still in good shape and wearable.

The issue with pressed CD's is inventory, something that is again wasteful and not inline with the philosophy of the band. After working with the management for three years on this bootleg program they make decisions very carefully and always select the best option that will suit their needs and keep costs low to fans, more so than any other of the 100 bands we work with.

The post office has raised their postage prices 3 times since starting to work with the band in 2008 but the price of the products have stayed the same at no increase to the fans.

I don't expect a mastering of economics from everyone but making comments that really have no validity is not positive or productive. We are very sensitive to this issue and want to find ways to lower costs, if we can find costs saving and pass them onto you we will.

KUFALA

AmherstJammer

I have been playing some of my cdr's on a regular basis for 15+ years with no problems and looking at them right now I have no concern that they won't last another 15 years...

TT8270

I wouldn't have bought Kufala made PJ philadelphia live discs had I known they're CD-Rs. I wasn't careful enough to find out about them in the first place. I can burn my CD-Rs but when buying actual music I prefer the real thing.

But all in all, let's hope they start pressing live vinyls soon. CD(-R) will die in few years time.

demetrios

CrookedLittleVein wrote:

I know Kufala uses Taiyo-Yudens, but I've read somewhere that the average max for those is about 10 years.

I'm not sure about that. I still have dozens & dozens of FujiFilm CDRs that are Made in Japan, product ID Taiyo Yudens that I've bought back in 1999 that I have burned many Pearl Jam VCD's, data CD's & Audio CD's and they are working/playing/extracting/verifying well to this day. If you know how to protect, store, take care of your CD's & CDR's, and the brand you're using is top of the line, aka Taiyo Yudens, then you shouldn't worry about a thing. Don't forget NEVER to use permanent marker on the top of the CDR's. In time the dye will go right through to the data. If you want to label your CDR's, just mark in the inside of the clear disc space where no data is written. If you are using no name brand, Staples, Walmat, Memorex brand products, say your prayers. Those won't last long.

aspoonfulweighsaton

This is all crazy talk. I've always used nothing but the cheapest, no-name junk for making CDs and I've NEVER had any issue with ANY of them not working anymore and we're talking WAY over five years. And I even use Sharpies on everything. I'm not naive enough to think they will last forever, but these estimates and articles are WAY off. This is almost as bad as auto shops conspiring with motor oil companies telling you that you have to change your oil every 3,000 miles when we all know that's a joke.

KillTaker

pdalowsky wrote:

Kufalas post may assist you

This is perception not a fact. In 2001 you would have been making a valid point but technology has advanced quite a bit in the last 10 years. It is the same data on the disc reproducing the audio so there is no quality difference between the audio quality in a pressed disc vs. the discs that KUFALA produces. Durability of a disc image replicated disc(what KUFALA does) vs a pressed disc can be questioned thus our lifetime replacement guarantee. If we pressed CD's for these release the prices would increase and we would not offer the replacement service. Plus we would then have to deal with inventory which would increase costs both on our end and to you the fans.

Another poster commented about blank discs costing $0.10. While you can buy blanks for that price the quality is crap. We use Taiyo Yuden blanks which cost about 3X what the poster referenced and if you a consumer were to buy them in a batch of 100 at retail it would cost 10X per disc what the poster referenced. They are made in Japan so the producer of the discs can not pollute at will like they can in Indian (where the cheapest blank CD's are produced). I guess we can blame walmart for creating a false reality of economics by not charging the true costs of the goods being sold. Sure you can produce a shirt for $2.00 but again the quality is crap, it's produced with child slave labor and will fall apart after one washing. Again the cost of producing a quality shirt not made by slave labor costs about 3-4X more than what the poster referenced, something I am sure Pearl Jam takes into consideration when selecting their clothing vendors. And after years of weekly wearing and washing my PJ shirts are still in good shape and wearable.

The issue with pressed CD's is inventory, something that is again wasteful and not inline with the philosophy of the band. After working with the management for three years on this bootleg program they make decisions very carefully and always select the best option that will suit their needs and keep costs low to fans, more so than any other of the 100 bands we work with.

The post office has raised their postage prices 3 times since starting to work with the band in 2008 but the price of the products have stayed the same at no increase to the fans.

I don't expect a mastering of economics from everyone but making comments that really have no validity is not positive or productive. We are very sensitive to this issue and want to find ways to lower costs, if we can find costs saving and pass them onto you we will.

KUFALA

The end of the conversation is above.

Spiritual_Chaos

They should have had a small batch of pressed discs for us fans for 25dollars or something. Would have been nice.

stateoflove79

I have all the 03 boots on cdr, with sharpie writing on the front and have had no problems at all...and we're going on 8 years soon that I will have had them.

aspoonfulweighsaton

stateoflove79 wrote:

I have all the 03 boots on cdr, with sharpie writing on the front and have had no problems at all...and we're going on 8 years soon that I will have had them.

Same here. I made copies of the real ones back then and they play fine, but like I said earlier I have plenty that are a lot older (including the 2000 boots) than that and I've never had any of them NOT play. And we're talking like Wal-Mart or Best Buy house brand too.

helplessdancer

AmherstJammer wrote:

I have been playing some of my cdr's on a regular basis for 15+ years with no problems and looking at them right now I have no concern that they won't last another 15 years...

+1

LikeAnOcean

aspoonfulweighsaton wrote:

This is all crazy talk. I've always used nothing but the cheapest, no-name junk for making CDs and I've NEVER had any issue with ANY of them not working anymore and we're talking WAY over five years. And I even use Sharpies on everything. I'm not naive enough to think they will last forever, but these estimates and articles are WAY off. This is almost as bad as auto shops conspiring with motor oil companies telling you that you have to change your oil every 3,000 miles when we all know that's a joke.

Same here, but I wouldn't chance it. I've had new CDRs go bad. Nothing is forever. Vinyl will out last you though.

bazzer

To be honest, the first thing I do when I get a CD (pressed or CD-R) is rip to FLAC. The physical CDs I keep are more for sentimental reasons. I probably won't even know that they don't work in 10 years time, they will still serve their purpose to me - as a tangible memento.

boyo79

bazzer wrote:

To be honest, the first thing I do when I get a CD (pressed or CD-R) is rip to FLAC. The physical CDs I keep are more for sentimental reasons. I probably won't even know that they don't work in 10 years time, they will still serve their purpose to me - as a tangible memento.

I do the same, rip them to my Xbox or pc. They get played once on CD and then back in the box. Partly because I mostly listen to my music on my mp3 nowadays. The negative of being married

demetrios

bazzer wrote:

To be honest, the first thing I do when I get a CD (pressed or CD-R) is rip to FLAC.

That's what I do. Then later on back it up with other CD > Flac rips on Data DVDR.

youngster

Here's my bitch.

Kufala says that they need to use CD-R's to keep the cost down for the fans. Kufala has been doing PJ bootlegs since 2008 and they have been 16.99/ea since 2008.

The Gorge boxset came out a year before that in 2007 and had 3 shows in it with a total of 7 discs.

3 shows from Kufala @ 16.98/ea = $50.94.

3 shows in Gorge boxset with silver pressed CD's = $35

Hmmmmm :?

mookeywrench

there's a reason it's called average life-expectancy rather than expiration date.

bazzer

youngster wrote:

Here's my bitch.

Kufala says that they need to use CD-R's to keep the cost down for the fans. Kufala has been doing PJ bootlegs since 2008 and they have been 16.99/ea since 2008.

The Gorge boxset came out a year before that in 2007 and had 3 shows in it with a total of 7 discs.

3 shows from Kufala @ 16.98/ea = $50.94.

3 shows in Gorge boxset with silver pressed CD's = $35

Hmmmmm :?

It had a much larger run, it's available at retail. Economies of scale and all that...

darthvedder

bazzer wrote:

youngster wrote:

Here's my bitch.

Kufala says that they need to use CD-R's to keep the cost down for the fans. Kufala has been doing PJ bootlegs since 2008 and they have been 16.99/ea since 2008.

The Gorge boxset came out a year before that in 2007 and had 3 shows in it with a total of 7 discs.

3 shows from Kufala @ 16.98/ea = $50.94.

3 shows in Gorge boxset with silver pressed CD's = $35

Hmmmmm :?

It had a much larger run, it's available at retail. Economies of scale and all that...

Runs don't matter when you can burn on demand. We're not talking limited editions when it comes to Kufala.

Predaking

Why not burn them to a HDD and have it for posterity? Make multiple backups, if you so desire. I think I have most of my CDs (purchased and burned) on two different drives.

Zod

My first burned CD is a data cd from 1997 and I can still read it fine. I think I got my first burner in '98, and I don't seem to have issues with those either (the '97 one I used a friend burner).

That being said, since DVD is also optical media. I know there were some pretty bad blank dvd's out there in the beginning. I used Ritek's when DVD was brand new, and they still play fine (the quality back then was much better then now). A friend of mine told me princo's will be fine and gave me a couple when he owed me some blanks. Those princo's became unreadable within years. So I'm guessing some of it definitely has an impact on the quality of the media you used.

Seeing as blank cd's have only been in use for maybe 15 years, any of those early survey's must of been slightly hypothetical, and now that were in real world application, results seem to be better then originally indicated?