Off the hook, so get off our backs! :)

JOEJOEJOE

Suzi78 wrote:

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Being that Jesus could turn water into wine, did anyone ever stop and think that perhaps some vineyard owners may have conspired to kill him?

Just sayin'

Hmmm...you might be on to something. Maybe James Maynard Keenan killed him?

Well, Maynard does have a bit of a messiah complex!

I am thinking it was one of the Napa Valley families......perhaps the Gallo's or the Mondavi's?

We'd also have to look towards Charles Shaw.....any winery that sells their wine for so cheap must be a front for some other type of business. On the news, they showed how local police just busted a pizza parlor (a front for drug sales) because they noticed that none of the customers ever walked out with any pizza!

JOEJOEJOE

Byrnzie wrote:

MrAbraham wrote:

Question, what do the early beliefs as you mention say?

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=144037&hilit=jesus+mysteries

MrAbraham wrote:

and What proof would satisfy you that Jesus did exist at one point?

Some mention of him in any of the dozens of contemporary histories of the period of his supposed existence would do for starters.

Tell me, Byrnzie, how do you friends in China react to your unique views?

Suzi78

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Suzi78 wrote:

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Being that Jesus could turn water into wine, did anyone ever stop and think that perhaps some vineyard owners may have conspired to kill him?

Just sayin'

Hmmm...you might be on to something. Maybe James Maynard Keenan killed him?

Well, Maynard does have a bit of a messiah complex!

I am thinking it was one of the Napa Valley families......perhaps the Gallo's or the Mondavi's?

We'd also have to look towards Charles Shaw.....any winery that sells their wine for so cheap must be a front for some other type of business. On the news, they showed how local police just busted a pizza parlor (a front for drug sales) because they noticed that none of the customers ever walked out with any pizza!

Keenan actually owns a winery called Caduceus Cellars/Merkin. I still believe Keenan did it.

No pizza? SO they just walked out with the mushrooms or what?

JOEJOEJOE

[Hmmm...you might be on to something. Maybe James Maynard Keenan killed him?[/quote]

Well, Maynard does have a bit of a messiah complex!

I am thinking it was one of the Napa Valley families......perhaps the Gallo's or the Mondavi's?

We'd also have to look towards Charles Shaw.....any winery that sells their wine for so cheap must be a front for some other type of business. On the news, they showed how local police just busted a pizza parlor (a front for drug sales) because they noticed that none of the customers ever walked out with any pizza![/quote]

Keenan actually owns a winery called Caduceus Cellars/Merkin. I still believe Keenan did it.

No pizza? SO they just walked out with the mushrooms or what? [/quote]

I am familiar with Maynard's wines...he did a few signings at different Whole Foods Market a few years back!

Yep, they seemed to only walk out with toppings, no actual pizza! Perhaps they can argue that they were selling low-fat/low-carb dishes!

Byrnzie

he still stands wrote:

Byrnzie come on... don't pick and choose what you highlight. Most of those guys that reject the Jesus Myth hypothesis. I'll concede that there is a debate and it isn't certain that he existed... but I just can't come to terms with all the historical information about Jesus and Christians in that time period was completely made up. OTOH, the New Testament is definitely "confirmation bias" and not to be confused with historical information.

Don't pick and choose what I highlight? You posted something in which every single point is disputed by the same sholars you claim support the historicity of Jesus.

The fact remains, there is zero evidence of Jesus' existence in the time he was alleged to have lived.

he still stands wrote:

As far as my claim that most people were illiterate... I'm confused about your point. You cite ONE person who wrote a bunch of books. How does that prove that most people were not illiterate?

I just picked the most obvious example - a twenty volume history of the period written at that time. There were dozens of histories written in that place at that time. You say people were largely illiterate then? What do you base this assertion on?

Byrnzie

aerial wrote:

The Jews made reference to Him in their Talmud, a companion to their Scriptures. The Jewish historian Josephus, an eyewitness to these things, wrote about him. So did Mohammad when writing the Koran. According to a Time magazine cover story Buddhist documents contain reference to Him.
And most obviously of all, the Creation is evidence of His existence.
http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/is-there-evidence-that-jesus-lived/

The Talmud is made up of two parts - the first written 200 years after the alleged life of Jesus, and the second written 500 years after the event. Therefore it's irrelevant in this case.

And the mentions of Jesus in the writings of Josephus have all been proven to be later interpolations by Christian Church Fathers, so that is also irrelevant.

As for the Koran, it was written between the first and third decade of the 7th century, six hundred years after the alleged life of Jesus, so that is also irrelevant in this case.

As for Buddhist documents containing reference to him, why don't you post that article so we can see what you're talking about? Or did you just pick that from a quick internet search and really have no idea what you're talking about?

Byrnzie

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Tell me, Byrnzie, how do you friends in China react to your unique views?

My views aren't unique.

And anyway, when I'm in a bar with friends I don't discuss politics or religion.

catefrances

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Pope exonerates Jews for Jesus' death in new book

EmailPrint..By NICOLE WINFIELD, Associated Press Nicole Winfield, Associated Press – 1 hr 11 mins ago

VATICAN CITY – Pope Benedict XVI has made a sweeping exoneration of the Jewish people for the death of Jesus Christ, tackling one of the most controversial issues in Christianity in a new book.

In "Jesus of Nazareth-Part II" excerpts released Wednesday, Benedict explains biblically and theologically why there is no basis in Scripture for the argument that the Jewish people as a whole were responsible for Jesus' death.

wow! that was nice of him... :roll:

markin ball

Byrnzie wrote:

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Tell me, Byrnzie, how do you friends in China react to your unique views?

My views aren't unique.

And anyway, when I'm in a bar with friends I don't discuss politics or religion.

Why would Byrnzie's location have anything to do with anything? How does it make him right, or wrong, superior or lesser? China, I mean, not the bar.

markin ball

I wish there was a Jesus and I wish he would come down and clear his name from all this nonsense that passes for Christianity these days. 2,000 years to forgive! Christians are some slow learners. Jesus turned the other cheek before he even rolled that big old rock away on vernal equinox, ahem...excuse me Easter morning.

JOEJOEJOE

markin ball wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Tell me, Byrnzie, how do you friends in China react to your unique views?

My views aren't unique.

And anyway, when I'm in a bar with friends I don't discuss politics or religion.

Why would Byrnzie's location have anything to do with anything? How does it make him right, or wrong, superior or lesser? China, I mean, not the bar. [/quote

Byrnzie seems to have been exposed to the world quite a bit, more so then those who has lived their lives in a more closed society.

Byrnzie

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Byrnzie seems to have been exposed to the world quite a bit, more so then those who has lived their lives in a more closed society.

I don't have any male friends in China - same for every other foreigner I know here. I only have female Chinese friends. Not really sure why that is. I've met a couple of decent fellas in the past three years, but Chinese men here are mostly nobheads.

Idris

Are you absolutely certain that the Biblical Jesus did not exist? Keeping in mind, human intellectual limitations. Perhaps then leaving the door open for Human enhancement.

Now often when the argument of 'Did the Biblical Jesus exist' is brought up, the most powerful argument against a Biblical Jesus is often, the Osiris-Dionysus reference etc. Too many modern day Christians attempt to hide the many similarities between modern day Christianity and the Ancient faiths/cults or Myths of the old. From The Minoan civilization for example.

Now The Greco-Roman world had religious/cult practices, which started before them. Now It's very important to take note of something that is often overlooked.

Do similarities of the Biblical figure Jesus and the Jesus figure of the Ancient truly negate the possibility that a Biblical Jesus may of existed in the time we currently understand the biblical Jesus to of lived?

Also we should add something about human nature and human actions, specifically when faced with the unknown. When we do not understand something, or know something, too often in our history we add things to fill in the blanks.This is the danger. In the case of Christianity, we can see a solid example of this.

At the same time, the authors of certain books regarding the mysteries of Jesus fail to understand and take into account the same thing, and when we see their work, they are doing a similar thing some Christians have done, filled in the blanks with what they simply believe is true based on whatever information they can find supporting their cause, but simply lacking sound logic and reasoning when doing so.

And specifically lacking the knowledge and understanding of Human Nature and the Human Mind.

Now an example some authors of said books have used in trying to disprove the existence of the Biblical Jesus with citing similarities (as we have noted) of the Ancient Jesus and the Saturnalia and Son of Isis time frame.

What we do know is that this date was brought and stamped as the DOB of the Biblical Jesus years after it is believed the Biblical Jesus died or left the earth (depending), Biblical Scripture in fact cites his Birth at a time that from it's explanation was not a December date, but why is this ignored, by both sides! Perhaps the same reason it is believed that Jesus ate Pork yet it is clearly written in Biblical scripture to not do that. Yet Again we bring in human ignorance when they try to cancel one thing out and fill in the blanks. "It's not what goes in the mouth but what comes out". Which is used when countering that. Not truly understanding what it means.

It was the Church that used that December date which was honoring the Kronos, Why did they do this? Simply to fill in the blanks as we noted earlier, something as we know is dangerous. But why did they choose the same/Similar time frame of the Pagan Feast? I do not know why for sure, but one can with confidence say that based on the nature of people and how one can garner support for a cause, in this case Christianity. So do things that are familiar with the people, so you can gain the support of the people. Pagans were abundant at the time. So, ummm,you know the saying, when in Rome.....yet with an Agenda.

We also know that this worked, around this time Christianity really started to grow. That is something very interesting that we must take into account.

So to cite similarities and in many cases straight up copying of the The Greco-Roman world and it's religions,cults or myths. Is hardly a bases that one should use to come to the conclusion that (in this case) a man who we know as Jesus may of lived at the Biblical time that we are debating,

Before one Say's that they are 100% certain that the Biblical Jesus did not exist, Absolute Certainty? Think about it.

99% sure, that sounds better, but can anyone be 100% sure that Biblical Jesus did exist at the time? Or is 99% all we need these day's? 99% with 1% Belief? How certain must one be? Metaphysically Certain? absolutelly certain?


It can go both ways. Until we once again look at who we are as people, as humans, what we have done in our known history. Or even going back to our evolution from monkeys? To What we are now.

Also (to jump back a bit) a few more examples that are used for the argument against the Biblical Jesus based on Similarities of the Pagan Figure are the resurrection of Jesus, and equality with God.

Biblical Jesus and the equality with the Highest God, Or Gods is very interesting. Because sourced from enough writings at the time, whether one believes it was from a man named Jesus at the Biblical time or not is not of importance yet. Because the writings in fact make a clear differentiation that he (being real or) is not Equal to 'the father'. But simply a path to him.

But how can Christians make such a mistake? But what's even better is that this same mistake is used partly as proof of a Biblical Jesus not existing.

Look at Buddhism, modern day Buddhist also do something similar, they refer to Siddhartha Gautama as Lord, why do they do this? When from his teachings he clearly never implied this, hardly even spoke about a God/Gods. Let alone worshiping him. Yet the idols still go up, of stone wood, and Gold. Hardly the simple way's Buddha spoke of.

Again, it's this human nature, this thing we do. When we are able to strip away these things, we can see a much clearer picture.

Another thing, we have writings that came from the time of Jesus, are they his words? Again we can debate if he ever existed, but somethings in a few writings that are attributed with him at the time he was to of lived need to be examined, mainly the one referring to "kingdom of heaven"...is where? In you.

Contemplate that, it may take time, may take stages, but work on that, keeping in mind everything we have discussed and no doubt will continue to discuss and debate.

Now when people ask me things (and I get this quite a lot) like 'did the WTC have bombs in them?' My first response is often to ask why they think that in the first place, they see a building fall, but it fell after being hit by a plane.Why believe it was anything other than planes that brought them down? I don't know if bombs were in the towers, what I do know is that countries have used false flag operations and in this case wanting the towers to come down to push an agenda is very possible. But again, like this more rare topic of 'did Jesus exist at all' is like the bombs in the towers.

What we need to do is back up a bit, and ask, why would someone plant bombs in the towers? why would anybody want this to happen? Why would people make a story up about a man, saying he is so and so? We can see many reasons to do it, but does that mean they are true?

what do we know of the basic teachings of Jesus? He speaks about love, patience etc. A common theme with past figures. But where does this theme come from? How did it start? Why was it picked up and followed with such, passion? What is it that is in us?

Let's look at Basarwa and the Tsodilo Hills, we again can trace a pattern. This is very important. Also we must look at evolutionary thinking, and what caused the split.

Now in 2,000 years, the world as we know it may not exist, future man may not know we ever went into space, does this mean that we did not go into space? Touch the moon? (maybe it really was made in a Hollywood Basement)

Let's look at Kubrick's 2001: A Space Odyssey, does anyone remember when the Black monolith first appears and the apes go nuts? they can't understand what it is, where it came from. Soon after one of the apes sits and it seems to be wondering, at this point he eventually discovers the use of weapons, in this case a bone which he uses to over power and control another group. This all started with the Black Monolith, something they saw and could not comprehend. What was our Black Monolith?

At what point did we decide that we would not move out of Africa like the Neanderthals did, but stay and evolve. One group stays behind and turns into what eventually is modern man and the other becomes extinct.

Yes this all relates to 'Did Jesus exist', because once one understands these other things, no doubt they will see the clear picture of the answer they are looking for.

The reality is, the argument of whether or not Jesus existed, whether or not he was touched by the divine if he was alive or not, or whether or not some super powerful being many call God exists at all...Does not have to be our debate. When we are dealing with something so old, one obviously can not provide cell phone videos of his birth, nor can we provide a picture of Moses and the burning Bush. Or can we? Well....

The thing is, to follow the common theme that exists, that we know exists through most of these stories, we can call it the Higgs Boson if we like, which we should know more about in a couple of years.

A common theme that ties everything together, anyone into Quantum mechanics? Physics? The act of observation and the changes that can occur by simply doing so.

That everything we say, and do is recorded far off in space time, the understanding of time and it's coming about is all relevant to this debate.

Now if we truly want to get these answers to these big questions, perhaps We can do so by getting to know ourselves, our nature. Perhaps then we will understand what 'The kingdom of God is in You' really means.

The question now becomes, who has enough courage to drop the ego and walk down this path? To become awake in a world that is asleep. To see the code of the Matrix if you will.

Wake up in the morning and not to allow the world around us to influence us negatively, to find the harmony in the universe that does exists, as after the Big Bang, the battle of matter and atoms, the cosmic dance that took place. Are we not start dust after all?

Byrnzie

MrAbraham wrote:

Now often when the argument of 'Did the Biblical Jesus exist' is brought up, the most powerful argument against a Biblical Jesus is often, the Osiris-Dionysus reference etc.

Do similarities of the Biblical figure Jesus and the Jesus figure of the Ancient truly negate the possibility that a Biblical Jesus may of existed in the time we currently understand the biblical Jesus to of lived?

Actually, I think the most powerful argument brought up in disputing the historical Jesus is the complete lack of evidence.

There are plenty of people who lived at the time of Jesus' supposed existence, and plenty who lived hundreds or even thousands of years earlier whose existence can be proven. This is because there is historical evidence that confirms their existence. In the case of the Biblical Jesus, however, there is no evidence. None whatsoever - despite numerous contemporary histories of the period.


Not that this means we should reject the teachings. Personally, I think the Gnostic Gospels - those Gospels rejected by the early Church fathers because they preached direct experience of God instead of through the medium of the Priesthood and the Church - contain many profound truths.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

The Nag Hammadi Library
The Gospel of Thomas

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.


77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."


92. Jesus said, "Seek and you will find.


94. Jesus [said], "One who seeks will find, and for [one who knocks] it will be opened."


100. They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us."

He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine."


113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

Idris

Byrnzie wrote:

MrAbraham wrote:

Now often when the argument of 'Did the Biblical Jesus exist' is brought up, the most powerful argument against a Biblical Jesus is often, the Osiris-Dionysus reference etc.

Do similarities of the Biblical figure Jesus and the Jesus figure of the Ancient truly negate the possibility that a Biblical Jesus may of existed in the time we currently understand the biblical Jesus to of lived?

Actually, I think the most powerful argument brought up in disputing the historical Jesus is the complete lack of evidence.

There are plenty of people who lived at the time of Jesus' supposed existence, and plenty who lived hundreds or even thousands of years earlier whose existence can be proven. This is because there is historical evidence that confirms their existence. In the case of the Biblical Jesus, however, there is no evidence. None whatsoever - despite numerous contemporary histories of the period.


Not that this means we should reject the teachings. Personally, I think the Gnostic Gospels - those Gospels rejected by the early Church fathers because they preached direct experience of God instead of through the medium of the Priesthood and the Church - contain many profound truths.

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

The Nag Hammadi Library
The Gospel of Thomas

3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.


77. Jesus said, "I am the light that is over all things. I am all: from me all came forth, and to me all attained.

Split a piece of wood; I am there.

Lift up the stone, and you will find me there."


92. Jesus said, "Seek and you will find.


94. Jesus [said], "One who seeks will find, and for [one who knocks] it will be opened."


100. They showed Jesus a gold coin and said to him, "The Roman emperor's people demand taxes from us."

He said to them, "Give the emperor what belongs to the emperor, give God what belongs to God, and give me what is mine."


113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it."

You know it's hard to say that because evidence of people much older than biblical Jesus exist, and the same type of evidence does not exist for Biblical Jesus thus biblical jesus did not exists is weak, right? So it does not disprove that he did not exist at the time. But the best argument for his existence may just be in you speaking of profound truths and quoting those quotes.

Also clearly seeing where changes happened, as you said, the earlier works not going through a medium, which as we know, would hurt the Church and it's own agenda and greed. Which is why the theme of looking within must remain.

Byrnzie, I think you are closer to the kingdom of Heaven than you know

and yes of course to add to the evidence point, I understand that if such an important man did exist, surely we would have some physical evidence at the very least or solid writings from others of the time. Then again, if Jesus was divine and it is about faith, perhaps that's why no evidence exists. Just those profound truths you speak of.

catefrances

markin ball wrote:

I wish there was a Jesus and I wish he would come down and clear his name from all this nonsense that passes for Christianity these days. 2,000 years to forgive! Christians are some slow learners. Jesus turned the other cheek before he even rolled that big old rock away on vernal equinox, ahem...excuse me Easter morning.

that would kinda defeat the purpose of faith dont you think?

Idris

nuffingman wrote:

MrAbraham wrote:

Would it not be nice if this forum saved what we are typing in a post while we are typing! like gmail does, as I had a nice fat essay I was typing out for you, then my pc freezes! and it's all gone,

Funny how things happen sometimes,

But you don't believe in fate or Coincidence do you? Or what is it, things just happen! Windows sucks and if I was on a Mac we would b just fine,

I'll re type everything soon,

You could always type it in gmail, then copy and paste into here.

.
Yeah bro, That's what I ended up doing, Live n Learn!