Fair enough, but just so you know, ethanol production in US was consistent w/ other leading nations through 2006. When the Democratic Congress took over, ethanol production in US jumped from 6 billion gallons to 11 billon gallons. It wasn't Bush's baby necessarily. Just like Iraq: it couldn't have happened w/out the support of Democrats.
ethanol WAS supported by pretty much everyone 5 or 6 years ago, so I'll concede that we should (edit; should NOT) just "blame bush" like many people do in regards to many different topics.
I'm not really interested in pointing fingers at who is to blame on this subject. But, you could even point a finger at the scientists because back then we didn't really understand the net energy gain was so small (or maybe even negative). Corn industry lobbyists might be the one's who really should be kicked in the cunt, though. They're the ones who got the ball rolling on all of this and made sure that millions of dollars were spent on ethanol infrastructure.
I agree, but that link you posted is the same one I got my info from- (where would all of geniuses be w/out wikipedia ) US jumped from 6-11 billion gallons in those years. Anyway, I'll reserve my nutkick for the lobbyists as you suggested.
well, yeah they increased production dramatically during those years - that's what I'm talking about. And every year during those years they produced well over 50% of the total ethanol in the world.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
I know ethanol is an easy target, but as production has increased, so have jobs. More farmland is being utilized then ever and for once the farmers are making some money.
I think the whole industry would like the federal government to step out of the picture and stop trying to mandate quantities and prices. That is the real problem the industry is facing. Once a free market is established, supply and demand will even things out appropriately.
ethanol has definitely created jobs, thousands actually, and been great for grain farmers (and equally poor for livestock farmers). I highly doubt those benefits outweigh the higher energy and food costs attributed to 1/3 of the corn crop being used for ethanol.
If the government stepped out of the picture and didn't subsidize ethanol production, the plants and property would be idle because it wouldn't be profitable. That would be a PR nightmare for the government, since they were responsible for the creation of those plants, so they won't let that happen. But yeah, that's what SHOULD happen.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
All i know is that if you guys are paying $5 than us Canadians are going to get screwed.
Yep. The sad thing is we're already paying close to $5 a gallon and it doesn't seem that bad anymore.
This is a telling insight, or could be. Are canadians less dependent on gas-powered travel than us 'mericans? In other words, if $5/gal "just feels normal" to canadians now, will the economic impacts of $5 gas in the US be as dire as everyone predicts?
All i know is that if you guys are paying $5 than us Canadians are going to get screwed.
Yep. The sad thing is we're already paying close to $5 a gallon and it doesn't seem that bad anymore.
This is a telling insight, or could be. Are canadians less dependent on gas-powered travel than us 'mericans? In other words, if $5/gal "just feels normal" to canadians now, will the economic impacts of $5 gas in the US be as dire as everyone predicts?
i just think it feels normal for us because its always been the case that we will always pay more in gas prices than Americans. I think another reason is that Canadians just accept things where Americans don't.
All i know is that if you guys are paying $5 than us Canadians are going to get screwed.
Yep. The sad thing is we're already paying close to $5 a gallon and it doesn't seem that bad anymore.
This is a telling insight, or could be. Are canadians less dependent on gas-powered travel than us 'mericans? In other words, if $5/gal "just feels normal" to canadians now, will the economic impacts of $5 gas in the US be as dire as everyone predicts?
They've just been slowly raising prices and you really just don't notice it. Hell, I honestly can't remember the last time it was below $4 a gallon. I think that they're just screwing us because down the road about 15kms it's .60 cents cheaper.
I guess what I meant in my last post was that gas is expensive in Canada, but your economy has adjusted to it and it isn't the end of the world. What makes the US economy so different that has people all up in arms about $5 gas? Obviously I don't want to pay $5/gal for the premium shite I have to pump into my SUV, but is it really going to be the end of the world?
When oil prices increase, you can bet that food prices will, too.
Not just because of the energy required to produce and transport those goods to your table, but because of ETHANOL.
When the price of oil increase (note that I don't mention anything about supply/demand... only price) that means that ethanol price increases, thereby increasing the price of corn and most other grains (which are mostly substitute goods). The price of corn is now $6 and soybeans is $13... wheat and others are near all-time highs. When I was a kid it was normal for corn to be at $2.50 and soybeans to be at $5. It wiill probably continue increasing and these commodities have an affect on many items in the grocery store, except for raw fruits and vegetables.
We can thank Bush for creating this monster (the ethanol industry). It's terribly inefficent (1 gallon of oil to produce 1.1 gallons of ethanol) and it hurts livestock farmers and increases food prices for all of us.
.... And this is coming for a guy whose family grows 2,500 acres of corn and soybeans in the Midwest.
I agree, the Ethanol experiment was a bust. But Bush? Still? Ya he did it, but he tried something.
What has this administration done to even try, except knee-jerk reaction to the oil spill w/ a drilling moratorium: hurting our energy resources, and killing jobs?
I thought Obama was supposed to be the "green job" guy. "Green jobs" were gonna save the economy...
what happened?
I genuinely believe he underestimated the sheer hate, bigotry, and stupidity of some of his fellow citizens, and yes, you are a shining example of that. I mean to still be debating about non events like birth place, religion, I mean my God.
we haven't paid the true cost of oil since forever ... we subsidize these fucking companies so the executives can make a boat load of money and spend the extra on preventing real postive change ...
I guess what I meant in my last post was that gas is expensive in Canada, but your economy has adjusted to it and it isn't the end of the world. What makes the US economy so different that has people all up in arms about $5 gas? Obviously I don't want to pay $5/gal for the premium shite I have to pump into my SUV, but is it really going to be the end of the world?
yes your right we have adjusted to it because to be honest we have to. While i am not a fan of the price (it's mostly to do with our taxes) i can bitch til i am blue in the face but i have to decide that a) i need that gas to go anywhere or b) deicde to not drive. I can't have it both ways which from what i have seen alot people want. I just drive my car less and use public transit more.
we haven't paid the true cost of oil since forever ... we subsidize these fucking companies so the executives can make a boat load of money and spend the extra on preventing real postive change ...
oil men are some of the evilest in the world
I don't agree with the higher the better. lets be realistic, not matter what oil companies are going to make there money. gas prices this high do effect the individual alot. I once read a report which i am looking for right now that shows that in reality poor people travel more for work then the rich. if gas prices go higher and higher than it will effect the poor more than the rich.
I don't agree with the higher the better. lets be realistic, not matter what oil companies are going to make there money. gas prices this high do effect the individual alot. I once read a report which i am looking for right now that shows that in reality poor people travel more for work then the rich. if gas prices go higher and higher than it will effect the poor more than the rich.
poor people use mass transit too which is what we should be investing in ... but that's moot ... oil companies make their money only because of gov't policies - there business model is fundamentally flawed ...
spend billlions of dollars extracting a resource that pollutes the world, destroys watersheds, utlizes other energy sources to get something for the most part we don't really need ...
the whole economy is flawed ... it's designed to benefit the strong and punish the weak ... the whole thing needs to be blown up and if the day oil hits $500 a litre and we finally go off it ... that'll be a good day ...
I don't agree with the higher the better. lets be realistic, not matter what oil companies are going to make there money. gas prices this high do effect the individual alot. I once read a report which i am looking for right now that shows that in reality poor people travel more for work then the rich. if gas prices go higher and higher than it will effect the poor more than the rich.
poor people use mass transit too which is what we should be investing in ... but that's moot ... oil companies make their money only because of gov't policies - there business model is fundamentally flawed ...
spend billlions of dollars extracting a resource that pollutes the world, destroys watersheds, utlizes other energy sources to get something for the most part we don't really need ...
the whole economy is flawed ... it's designed to benefit the strong and punish the weak ... the whole thing needs to be blown up and if the day oil hits $500 a litre and we finally go off it ... that'll be a good day ...
I get what you're sayin and agree!
I'm an avid transit user by choice, my parents have actually tried to give me their Corolla a couple times but I've debated over actually taking it (I decided now i'm going to gratefully accept so I can use it where our shitty transit cannot take me, like up the mountain to ride).
My brother is the complete opposite, he refuses to take transit and drives to work every day even though I can walk to his work in 10 minutes. It's all about the mindset!! Granted, lots of people can't use transit (the vicious cycle of how its shitty further out of the urban centres so fewer people can use it) but lots of people can, they just need to get over the stigma that 'transit is for the poor who can't afford a vehicle'
Someone on this board once said that all of us who say we take transit is because we "most likely all have DUI's" ...I remember just being flabbergasted... like, WHAT?
if you live in the northeast corridor in the states ... you have to ask yourself why the heck there are no high speed trains here ...
how many flights a day go between boston, new york, dc, philadelphia and baltimore alone? ... trains these days can go 400 km/hr ... it would be way more efficient to be taking the train but for some reason, all there is is Amtrak which makes rollerblading a reasonable option ...
if you live in the northeast corridor in the states ... you have to ask yourself why the heck there are no high speed trains here ...
how many flights a day go between boston, new york, dc, philadelphia and baltimore alone? ... trains these days can go 400 km/hr ... it would be way more efficient to be taking the train but for some reason, all there is is Amtrak which makes rollerblading a reasonable option ...
At least you kept your head, jeez....
that was nuts what happened to that poor guy
it actually happened a week after my trip ... on a route i was on ... :shock:
so sad :(
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Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
I see now it is possible that these prices just might hit $5 a gal by the end of the year. In just a week it went from $3.09-$3.37 cents here in South Florida. If this Middle East unrest continues this will only make things worse, I gather I'll be riding my bicycle to work well at least it's great ocean veiwing.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
OK. Where I live I'm paying $7.759 for a US gallon. I'm moving over.
Yip and we pay $7.87!!! Although we buy it by the litre it has just hit $2.08 per litre, which is hitting us hard, we are a 2 car family and we need our cars due to a non existant public transport system.
OK. Where I live I'm paying $7.759 for a US gallon. I'm moving over.
Yip and we pay $7.87!!! Although we buy it by the litre it has just hit $2.08 per litre, which is hitting us hard, we are a 2 car family and we need our cars due to a non existant public transport system.
Is that NZ$7.87 or US? I thought fuel was reasonable in NZ when we were over there.
We have just hit £5.93 per UK gallon.
US $9.67
NZ $13.028
Is that NZ$7.87 or US? I thought fuel was reasonable in NZ when we were over there.
We have just hit £5.93 per UK gallon.
US $9.67
NZ $13.028
US gallon in the UK would be US$8.06
That would suck!
It looks like we are on our way to $4 here in the States. It was $3.45 yesterday. My pickup averages about 15 mpg and it will soon cost $100 to fill up the tank. :( Too bad I need it for work and to get through the snowy winters.
Comments
I agree, but that link you posted is the same one I got my info from- (where would all of geniuses be w/out wikipedia
I think the whole industry would like the federal government to step out of the picture and stop trying to mandate quantities and prices. That is the real problem the industry is facing. Once a free market is established, supply and demand will even things out appropriately.
If the government stepped out of the picture and didn't subsidize ethanol production, the plants and property would be idle because it wouldn't be profitable. That would be a PR nightmare for the government, since they were responsible for the creation of those plants, so they won't let that happen. But yeah, that's what SHOULD happen.
i just think it feels normal for us because its always been the case that we will always pay more in gas prices than Americans. I think another reason is that Canadians just accept things where Americans don't.
I guess what I meant in my last post was that gas is expensive in Canada, but your economy has adjusted to it and it isn't the end of the world. What makes the US economy so different that has people all up in arms about $5 gas? Obviously I don't want to pay $5/gal for the premium shite I have to pump into my SUV, but is it really going to be the end of the world?
I genuinely believe he underestimated the sheer hate, bigotry, and stupidity of some of his fellow citizens, and yes, you are a shining example of that. I mean to still be debating about non events like birth place, religion, I mean my God.
we haven't paid the true cost of oil since forever ... we subsidize these fucking companies so the executives can make a boat load of money and spend the extra on preventing real postive change ...
oil men are some of the evilest in the world
yes your right we have adjusted to it because to be honest we have to. While i am not a fan of the price (it's mostly to do with our taxes) i can bitch til i am blue in the face but i have to decide that a) i need that gas to go anywhere or b) deicde to not drive. I can't have it both ways which from what i have seen alot people want. I just drive my car less and use public transit more.
I don't agree with the higher the better. lets be realistic, not matter what oil companies are going to make there money. gas prices this high do effect the individual alot. I once read a report which i am looking for right now that shows that in reality poor people travel more for work then the rich. if gas prices go higher and higher than it will effect the poor more than the rich.
poor people use mass transit too which is what we should be investing in ... but that's moot ... oil companies make their money only because of gov't policies - there business model is fundamentally flawed ...
spend billlions of dollars extracting a resource that pollutes the world, destroys watersheds, utlizes other energy sources to get something for the most part we don't really need ...
the whole economy is flawed ... it's designed to benefit the strong and punish the weak ... the whole thing needs to be blown up and if the day oil hits $500 a litre and we finally go off it ... that'll be a good day ...
I'm an avid transit user by choice, my parents have actually tried to give me their Corolla a couple times but I've debated over actually taking it (I decided now i'm going to gratefully accept so I can use it where our shitty transit cannot take me, like up the mountain to ride).
My brother is the complete opposite, he refuses to take transit and drives to work every day even though I can walk to his work in 10 minutes. It's all about the mindset!! Granted, lots of people can't use transit (the vicious cycle of how its shitty further out of the urban centres so fewer people can use it) but lots of people can, they just need to get over the stigma that 'transit is for the poor who can't afford a vehicle'
Someone on this board once said that all of us who say we take transit is because we "most likely all have DUI's" ...I remember just being flabbergasted... like, WHAT?
how many flights a day go between boston, new york, dc, philadelphia and baltimore alone? ... trains these days can go 400 km/hr ... it would be way more efficient to be taking the train but for some reason, all there is is Amtrak which makes rollerblading a reasonable option ...
i did greyhound from wawa, ON to vancouver ... hopefully, that won't happen again ...
exactly ... although the british gallon is like 20% bigger than the US gallon ...
that was nuts what happened to that poor guy
it actually happened a week after my trip ... on a route i was on ... :shock:
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Yip and we pay $7.87!!! Although we buy it by the litre it has just hit $2.08 per litre, which is hitting us hard, we are a 2 car family and we need our cars due to a non existant public transport system.
We have just hit £5.93 per UK gallon.
US $9.67
NZ $13.028
US gallon in the UK would be US$8.06
It looks like we are on our way to $4 here in the States. It was $3.45 yesterday. My pickup averages about 15 mpg and it will soon cost $100 to fill up the tank. :( Too bad I need it for work and to get through the snowy winters.