That doesn't really seem like a fair sentiment to me. You seem to be blaming people for doing what they can because in your eyes they aren't doing enough.
do you think china is doing enough in regards to north koera?
Redrock, you should check out what is written in Haaretz on a regular basis. You might also check out a website called SouthJerusalem. One of the two guys who writes there (an Israeli journalist) is a family friend. I think you'll be surprised by what you find there.
I said 'in general', Yosi. Haaretz is part of my nearly daily reading.... As far as I gather, whilst this paper is quite liberal, it doesn't have a large circulation and it is the more 'educated' people that read it - not for the 'masses'.
the reason some compare israel's actions to the nazi's is because there are few parallels in recent history that so illustrate Israel's treatment of palestine. its that bad. the US invasion of vietnam is a good comparison, and i have no problem switching to that, but israel's actions are what they are....
i dont think the actions of the israelis and the nazis are comparable. i think a more honest and clear comparison would be between what the israeli govt continues to do and the past actions of apartheid sth africa. whilst the actions of the israeli govt are heinous it hasnt degenerated to the point of industrialised extermination of palestinians as nazi germany employed against the jews. and no i am not excusing nor condoning the oppressive violence and actions the israeli govt continues to employ under some sort of delusion that it will get them whatever it is theyre after.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
the reason some compare israel's actions to the nazi's is because there are few parallels in recent history that so illustrate Israel's treatment of palestine. its that bad. the US invasion of vietnam is a good comparison, and i have no problem switching to that, but israel's actions are what they are....
i dont think the actions of the israelis and the nazis are comparable. i think a more honest and clear comparison would be between what the israeli govt continues to do and the past actions of apartheid sth africa. whilst the actions of the israeli govt are heinous it hasnt degenerated to the point of industrialised extermination of palestinians as nazi germany employed against the jews. and no i am not excusing nor condoning the oppressive violence and actions the israeli govt continues to employ under some sort of delusion that it will get them whatever it is theyre after.
Very valid point Cate
I would have hoped that through the holocost experience that the Jewish peoples would show more compassion. But it seems that because of the Holocost they have gone the other way
i dont think the actions of the israelis and the nazis are comparable. i think a more honest and clear comparison would be between what the israeli govt continues to do and the past actions of apartheid sth africa. whilst the actions of the israeli govt are heinous it hasnt degenerated to the point of industrialised extermination of palestinians as nazi germany employed against the jews. and no i am not excusing nor condoning the oppressive violence and actions the israeli govt continues to employ under some sort of delusion that it will get them whatever it is theyre after.
It's not the same in it's assembly-line nature, and is probably sensationalist to mention….but if the intent is to apply the lessons of history to the current situation, what events could draw a closer parallel? I can't think of any....
What other historical comparison could be made to 1.6 million (overwhelmingly civilian) people, entrapped behind unscalable walls with locked gates and armed guards, having poisonous gas rained down upon them (white phosporous)?
I am not very well versed on the topic myself, but have committed to learn more over the past couple years…
personally i think you are one of the more solid posters with your understanding on the issue when you do post. i wish you would post more.
Thanks TA, I truly appreciate the vote of confidence. Not to belittle your opinion, but if I come across as one of the more solid posters…it’s a sad testament to the topical expertise in this forum…extrapolated to the average Western citizen (whom I assume to generally be less interested in politics/activism than those who follow this forum)…yikes. :( no wonder there is no progress. THAT is exactly why it’s so important to keep talking about this, regardless of how much we spin our wheels…it does draw people in. Eventually people feel a need to stop fence sitting…in my experience, people who take it upon themselves to delve further into the topic, ALWAYS find themselves sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians, and shocked by the actions of the Israeli regimes, and the distortion of the issue by the media. If this conflict truly is between two guilty parties as we're always led to believe….why is that?
the reason some compare israel's actions to the nazi's is because there are few parallels in recent history that so illustrate Israel's treatment of palestine. its that bad. the US invasion of vietnam is a good comparison, and i have no problem switching to that, but israel's actions are what they are....
i dont think the actions of the israelis and the nazis are comparable. i think a more honest and clear comparison would be between what the israeli govt continues to do and the past actions of apartheid sth africa. whilst the actions of the israeli govt are heinous it hasnt degenerated to the point of industrialised extermination of palestinians as nazi germany employed against the jews. and no i am not excusing nor condoning the oppressive violence and actions the israeli govt continues to employ under some sort of delusion that it will get them whatever it is theyre after.
if you pick the parameters of course the comparison doesn't fit.
but since i'm the one making the comparison...
one one hand you have a militant state bent on solving its problems militarily, treating its victims like animals....on the other you have Israel., doing the same.
the point i'm trying to make is that the nazis ruled a violent, racist state. but so does the israeli leadership.
you've posted of paranoia and fear on the part of the Israeli leadership, about how damaging that must be for the people living there. that paranoia and fear, still very much real 60 years after the act, is now being used an excuse. but if you or i or anyone can show that israel's actions are so similar to what they are so afraid might happen to them.....maybe they'll think twice about continuing it. i think its a point worth making.
and so i made it.
that what you fear the most, could meet you halfway
if you pick the parameters of course the comparison doesn't fit.
but since i'm the one making the comparison...
one one hand you have a militant state bent on solving its problems militarily, treating its victims like animals....on the other you have Israel., doing the same.
the point i'm trying to make is that the nazis ruled a violent, racist state. but so does the israeli leadership.
you've posted of paranoia and fear on the part of the Israeli leadership, about how damaging that must be for the people living there. that paranoia and fear, still very much real 60 years after the act, is now being used an excuse. but if you or i or anyone can show that israel's actions are so similar to what they are so afraid might happen to them.....maybe they'll think twice about continuing it. i think its a point worth making.
and so i made it.
that what you fear the most, could meet you halfway
I am so tired of this! You guys keep pre-emptively calling foul about being labelled anti-semites for criticizing Israel when no one is calling you an anti-semite. It's absurd!
Anti-semitism is very real. It hasn't gone away, and Israel being a Jewish state the debates surrounding Israel invariably attract some ugly characters along with everyone else who really do have the best intentions.
By constantly calling foul about anti-semitism, as you are doing right now, you are creating an environment in which people dismiss claims of anti-semitism as political posturing rather than legitimate concerns of racism. That is dangerous. I have no problems with you complaining about misuse of the anti-semitism label when you are actually being confronted by what you think is a case of misuse. That would be an instance of legitimate criticism. But what you're doing right now contributes to a mindset where all claims of antisemitism are rejected virtually out of hand. There are critics of Israel who are antisemitic. That is a fact. Such people need to be confronted. You need to stop providing them blanket cover for their bigotry.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
There are critics of Israel who are antisemitic. That is a fact. Such people need to be confronted.
I agree that racists need to be confronted. Though just out of curiosity, what people do you have in mind. Could you roll of a list of the top 5 anti-Semitic critics of Israel who first come to mind?
Thanks TA, I truly appreciate the vote of confidence. Not to belittle your opinion, but if I come across as one of the more solid posters…it’s a sad testament to the topical expertise in this forum…extrapolated to the average Western citizen (whom I assume to generally be less interested in politics/activism than those who follow this forum)…yikes. :( no wonder there is no progress. THAT is exactly why it’s so important to keep talking about this, regardless of how much we spin our wheels…it does draw people in. Eventually people feel a need to stop fence sitting…in my experience, people who take it upon themselves to delve further into the topic, ALWAYS find themselves sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians, and shocked by the actions of the Israeli regimes, and the distortion of the issue by the media. If this conflict truly is between two guilty parties as we're always led to believe….why is that?
i see often where people will pretend to be anti occupation but they use poor logic and don't have a clear understanding of the entire situation. all they do is confuse people who are trying to gain a better insight into the situation.
i see often where people will pretend to be anti occupation but they use poor logic and don't have a clear understanding of the entire situation. all they do is confuse people who are trying to gain a better insight into the situation.
kind of a problem isn't it? and i don't think its just individuals on this board, the problem is pervasive in american culture, in hollywood, all across the news.
with movies constantly coming out designed to either put the holocaust in the forefront or to attack the nazis, you have to start to wonder who's funding these things, or more importantly, "why?"
that was 60 years ago. where are today's hero's? the nazi's stopped being the enemy in 1945.
when we all move on from the holocaust we can all move on from the holocaust.
and that's not to say we should forget it. we should remember it precisely to ensure that it never happens again. but to constantly portray the victims of it in a certain way, to gain sympathy for them so they can commit atrocities of their own, then its being used as an excuse. and that's when you start pissing on the memories and graves of the true victims.
Comments
do you think china is doing enough in regards to north koera?
I said 'in general', Yosi. Haaretz is part of my nearly daily reading.... As far as I gather, whilst this paper is quite liberal, it doesn't have a large circulation and it is the more 'educated' people that read it - not for the 'masses'.
i dont think the actions of the israelis and the nazis are comparable. i think a more honest and clear comparison would be between what the israeli govt continues to do and the past actions of apartheid sth africa. whilst the actions of the israeli govt are heinous it hasnt degenerated to the point of industrialised extermination of palestinians as nazi germany employed against the jews. and no i am not excusing nor condoning the oppressive violence and actions the israeli govt continues to employ under some sort of delusion that it will get them whatever it is theyre after.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Very valid point Cate
I would have hoped that through the holocost experience that the Jewish peoples would show more compassion. But it seems that because of the Holocost they have gone the other way
What other historical comparison could be made to 1.6 million (overwhelmingly civilian) people, entrapped behind unscalable walls with locked gates and armed guards, having poisonous gas rained down upon them (white phosporous)?
Thanks TA, I truly appreciate the vote of confidence. Not to belittle your opinion, but if I come across as one of the more solid posters…it’s a sad testament to the topical expertise in this forum…extrapolated to the average Western citizen (whom I assume to generally be less interested in politics/activism than those who follow this forum)…yikes. :( no wonder there is no progress. THAT is exactly why it’s so important to keep talking about this, regardless of how much we spin our wheels…it does draw people in. Eventually people feel a need to stop fence sitting…in my experience, people who take it upon themselves to delve further into the topic, ALWAYS find themselves sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians, and shocked by the actions of the Israeli regimes, and the distortion of the issue by the media. If this conflict truly is between two guilty parties as we're always led to believe….why is that?
but since i'm the one making the comparison...
one one hand you have a militant state bent on solving its problems militarily, treating its victims like animals....on the other you have Israel., doing the same.
the point i'm trying to make is that the nazis ruled a violent, racist state. but so does the israeli leadership.
you've posted of paranoia and fear on the part of the Israeli leadership, about how damaging that must be for the people living there. that paranoia and fear, still very much real 60 years after the act, is now being used an excuse. but if you or i or anyone can show that israel's actions are so similar to what they are so afraid might happen to them.....maybe they'll think twice about continuing it. i think its a point worth making.
and so i made it.
that what you fear the most, could meet you halfway
Maybe that's why they can get away with so much.
My point exactly.
They cry foul and play the anti-semitic card too often if you don't agree with them yet are racist themselves.
Anti-semitism is very real. It hasn't gone away, and Israel being a Jewish state the debates surrounding Israel invariably attract some ugly characters along with everyone else who really do have the best intentions.
By constantly calling foul about anti-semitism, as you are doing right now, you are creating an environment in which people dismiss claims of anti-semitism as political posturing rather than legitimate concerns of racism. That is dangerous. I have no problems with you complaining about misuse of the anti-semitism label when you are actually being confronted by what you think is a case of misuse. That would be an instance of legitimate criticism. But what you're doing right now contributes to a mindset where all claims of antisemitism are rejected virtually out of hand. There are critics of Israel who are antisemitic. That is a fact. Such people need to be confronted. You need to stop providing them blanket cover for their bigotry.
I agree that racists need to be confronted. Though just out of curiosity, what people do you have in mind. Could you roll of a list of the top 5 anti-Semitic critics of Israel who first come to mind?
with movies constantly coming out designed to either put the holocaust in the forefront or to attack the nazis, you have to start to wonder who's funding these things, or more importantly, "why?"
that was 60 years ago. where are today's hero's? the nazi's stopped being the enemy in 1945.
when we all move on from the holocaust we can all move on from the holocaust.
and that's not to say we should forget it. we should remember it precisely to ensure that it never happens again. but to constantly portray the victims of it in a certain way, to gain sympathy for them so they can commit atrocities of their own, then its being used as an excuse. and that's when you start pissing on the memories and graves of the true victims.