The Israel-Palestine Issue

gimmesometruth27

there has been a lot of extremist rhetoric on this forum the last 2 days. i am stepping back and trying to see things objectively, and i can not belive i am saying this but i actually agree with yosi on a couple of his points. it does get old to read threads where "israel" is called the devil, when it is their government and their leadership, and the settlers who are doing these things to the palestinians and it is them that deserve criticism, not your normal resident of israel. some of us are like broken records posting the exact same posts over and over and over with no further thought or analysis. i am guilty of it myself, posting threads detailing the idf's treachery at times. i do that because it is important to me and is a major issue in this world today, probably the single greatest human rights issue in the world today. i do criticize them because they are an arm of the israeli government, whose policies i can not stand, but i do not criticize the average israeli citizen who was born there and is doing nothing more than trying to make a life. but i am bowing out of these threads because the hyperbole and dramatic language is not helping either side, and in some cases is making those that support palestine, which i do, come off like extremists. it is counterproductive. this and this alone is the reason why people do not read these threads and do not research things on their own, the way the arguments are made turns a lot of people off. i have received many pms regarding my posts on this topic over the last year and i can say that with 100% certainty. there needs to be some sort of civil discourse. people who i used to agree with 100% and respect are going further and further to extremes, and if i, a pretty liberal guy, am not comfortable reading some of it, how can your random moving train reader relate to it??

sorry if you all disagree, but go back and try to read some of the posts on this forum the last few days regarding the middle east with a clear and unbiased mind and think about it before you blast me over my opinion here.

Commy

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

but i do not criticize the average israeli citizen who was born there and is doing nothing more than trying to make a life.

this does not separate you from anyone on this board.

gimmesometruth27

Commy wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

but i do not criticize the average israeli citizen who was born there and is doing nothing more than trying to make a life.

this does not separate you from anyone on this board.

meaning?

Commy

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Commy wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

but i do not criticize the average israeli citizen who was born there and is doing nothing more than trying to make a life.

this does not separate you from anyone on this board.

meaning?

your implication was that others had.

gimmesometruth27

Commy wrote:

your implication was that others had.

others have. many times.

Commy

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Commy wrote:

your implication was that others had.

others have. many times.

sure

redrock

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

but i do not criticize the average israeli citizen who was born there and is doing nothing more than trying to make a life. .

But do you not think that the 'average citizen' has a HUGE role to play in their country's affairs, having voted the government in? I consider the majority complicit with the government as it is agreeing with their policies (seeing they voted for them). I also consider the 'silent minority' complicit - 'silent' being the word to focus on. Whether you have voted a government in or not, if one is not satisfied/appalled/against policies put in place, one should make their voices heard. So I do criticise the 'average citizen' - whether it's in Israel or not. My thoughts are valid for ANY country - the PEOPLE can shape the country with their votes. If the government they vote in does not perform as 'promised', people need to speak up. Look what is happening in the UK... The current coalition government is a joke. Nothing can be done until the next general election, but on the other hand, people are protesting/striking against the policies and making political changes at local level, until the time comes. One noticeable thing that makes me think the majority stand behind Israel's policies is that, in general, their press doesn't seem to be very critical of government policies, whereas in the UK.....

Just my thoughts.

yosi

Redrock, you should check out what is written in Haaretz on a regular basis. You might also check out a website called SouthJerusalem. One of the two guys who writes there (an Israeli journalist) is a family friend. I think you'll be surprised by what you find there.

polaris_x

yosi wrote:

Redrock, you should check out what is written in Haaretz on a regular basis. You might also check out a website called SouthJerusalem. One of the two guys who writes there (an Israeli journalist) is a family friend. I think you'll be surprised by what you find there.

i'm pretty sure it's not that surprising as many jewish groups outside of israel are quite moderate ... the problem with that voice tho is that they are only willing to voice a measure of change rather demand it ...

it's sort of like china and north korea now ... * you shouldn't launch attacks against south korea - but we won't really hold you accountable if you do "

yosi

That doesn't really seem like a fair sentiment to me. You seem to be blaming people for doing what they can because in your eyes they aren't doing enough.

polaris_x

yosi wrote:

That doesn't really seem like a fair sentiment to me. You seem to be blaming people for doing what they can because in your eyes they aren't doing enough.

do you think china is doing enough in regards to north koera?

redrock

yosi wrote:

Redrock, you should check out what is written in Haaretz on a regular basis. You might also check out a website called SouthJerusalem. One of the two guys who writes there (an Israeli journalist) is a family friend. I think you'll be surprised by what you find there.

I said 'in general', Yosi. Haaretz is part of my nearly daily reading.... As far as I gather, whilst this paper is quite liberal, it doesn't have a large circulation and it is the more 'educated' people that read it - not for the 'masses'.

catefrances

Commy wrote:

the reason some compare israel's actions to the nazi's is because there are few parallels in recent history that so illustrate Israel's treatment of palestine. its that bad. the US invasion of vietnam is a good comparison, and i have no problem switching to that, but israel's actions are what they are....

i dont think the actions of the israelis and the nazis are comparable. i think a more honest and clear comparison would be between what the israeli govt continues to do and the past actions of apartheid sth africa. whilst the actions of the israeli govt are heinous it hasnt degenerated to the point of industrialised extermination of palestinians as nazi germany employed against the jews. and no i am not excusing nor condoning the oppressive violence and actions the israeli govt continues to employ under some sort of delusion that it will get them whatever it is theyre after.

ONCE DEVIDED

catefrances wrote:

Commy wrote:

the reason some compare israel's actions to the nazi's is because there are few parallels in recent history that so illustrate Israel's treatment of palestine. its that bad. the US invasion of vietnam is a good comparison, and i have no problem switching to that, but israel's actions are what they are....

i dont think the actions of the israelis and the nazis are comparable. i think a more honest and clear comparison would be between what the israeli govt continues to do and the past actions of apartheid sth africa. whilst the actions of the israeli govt are heinous it hasnt degenerated to the point of industrialised extermination of palestinians as nazi germany employed against the jews. and no i am not excusing nor condoning the oppressive violence and actions the israeli govt continues to employ under some sort of delusion that it will get them whatever it is theyre after.

Very valid point Cate
I would have hoped that through the holocost experience that the Jewish peoples would show more compassion. But it seems that because of the Holocost they have gone the other way

Drowned Out

catefrances wrote:

i dont think the actions of the israelis and the nazis are comparable. i think a more honest and clear comparison would be between what the israeli govt continues to do and the past actions of apartheid sth africa. whilst the actions of the israeli govt are heinous it hasnt degenerated to the point of industrialised extermination of palestinians as nazi germany employed against the jews. and no i am not excusing nor condoning the oppressive violence and actions the israeli govt continues to employ under some sort of delusion that it will get them whatever it is theyre after.

It's not the same in it's assembly-line nature, and is probably sensationalist to mention….but if the intent is to apply the lessons of history to the current situation, what events could draw a closer parallel? I can't think of any....
What other historical comparison could be made to 1.6 million (overwhelmingly civilian) people, entrapped behind unscalable walls with locked gates and armed guards, having poisonous gas rained down upon them (white phosporous)?

TriumphantAngel wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

I am not very well versed on the topic myself, but have committed to learn more over the past couple years…

personally i think you are one of the more solid posters with your understanding on the issue when you do post. i wish you would post more.

Thanks TA, I truly appreciate the vote of confidence. Not to belittle your opinion, but if I come across as one of the more solid posters…it’s a sad testament to the topical expertise in this forum…extrapolated to the average Western citizen (whom I assume to generally be less interested in politics/activism than those who follow this forum)…yikes. :( no wonder there is no progress. THAT is exactly why it’s so important to keep talking about this, regardless of how much we spin our wheels…it does draw people in. Eventually people feel a need to stop fence sitting…in my experience, people who take it upon themselves to delve further into the topic, ALWAYS find themselves sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians, and shocked by the actions of the Israeli regimes, and the distortion of the issue by the media. If this conflict truly is between two guilty parties as we're always led to believe….why is that?

Commy

catefrances wrote:

Commy wrote:

the reason some compare israel's actions to the nazi's is because there are few parallels in recent history that so illustrate Israel's treatment of palestine. its that bad. the US invasion of vietnam is a good comparison, and i have no problem switching to that, but israel's actions are what they are....

i dont think the actions of the israelis and the nazis are comparable. i think a more honest and clear comparison would be between what the israeli govt continues to do and the past actions of apartheid sth africa. whilst the actions of the israeli govt are heinous it hasnt degenerated to the point of industrialised extermination of palestinians as nazi germany employed against the jews. and no i am not excusing nor condoning the oppressive violence and actions the israeli govt continues to employ under some sort of delusion that it will get them whatever it is theyre after.

if you pick the parameters of course the comparison doesn't fit.

but since i'm the one making the comparison...


one one hand you have a militant state bent on solving its problems militarily, treating its victims like animals....on the other you have Israel., doing the same.



the point i'm trying to make is that the nazis ruled a violent, racist state. but so does the israeli leadership.


you've posted of paranoia and fear on the part of the Israeli leadership, about how damaging that must be for the people living there. that paranoia and fear, still very much real 60 years after the act, is now being used an excuse. but if you or i or anyone can show that israel's actions are so similar to what they are so afraid might happen to them.....maybe they'll think twice about continuing it. i think its a point worth making.

and so i made it.







that what you fear the most, could meet you halfway

Byrnzie

Commy wrote:

if you pick the parameters of course the comparison doesn't fit.

but since i'm the one making the comparison...


one one hand you have a militant state bent on solving its problems militarily, treating its victims like animals....on the other you have Israel., doing the same.



the point i'm trying to make is that the nazis ruled a violent, racist state. but so does the israeli leadership.


you've posted of paranoia and fear on the part of the Israeli leadership, about how damaging that must be for the people living there. that paranoia and fear, still very much real 60 years after the act, is now being used an excuse. but if you or i or anyone can show that israel's actions are so similar to what they are so afraid might happen to them.....maybe they'll think twice about continuing it. i think its a point worth making.

and so i made it.







that what you fear the most, could meet you halfway

Thoughts_Arrive

I don't wish to speak up against the Israelis otherwise they use the ''he's a nazi'' stance if you do so.

Byrnzie

Thoughts_Arrive wrote:

I don't wish to speak up against the Israelis otherwise they use the ''he's a nazi'' stance if you do so.

Maybe that's why they can get away with so much.

Thoughts_Arrive

Byrnzie wrote:

Thoughts_Arrive wrote:

I don't wish to speak up against the Israelis otherwise they use the ''he's a nazi'' stance if you do so.

Maybe that's why they can get away with so much.

My point exactly.
They cry foul and play the anti-semitic card too often if you don't agree with them yet are racist themselves.