We talk about it all the time. It isn't taboo in the slightest. But we have that discussion within the framework of a shared knowledge that we all care about Israel and believe in her right to exist. When I come on this site and see people comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, and talking about how Israelis should just go back to America, and that the international community should invade Israel as retribution, I don't feel like this is a venue where I'm comfortable sharing my criticism.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
We talk about it all the time. It isn't taboo in the slightest. But we have that discussion within the framework of a shared knowledge that we all care about Israel and believe in her right to exist. When I come on this site and see people comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, and talking about how Israelis should just go back to America, and that the international community should invade Israel as retribution, I don't feel like this is a venue where I'm comfortable sharing my criticism.
I've never said Israel has no right to exist. And when I talk about Israeli's going back to America I always make it perfectly clear that I'm talking about the settlers who live in illegal Jewish-only settlements. Israel needs to be pressured into abiding by international law, and if that means sanctions, then so be it.
We talk about it all the time. It isn't taboo in the slightest. But we have that discussion within the framework of a shared knowledge that we all care about Israel and believe in her right to exist. When I come on this site and see people comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, and talking about how Israelis should just go back to America, and that the international community should invade Israel as retribution, I don't feel like this is a venue where I'm comfortable sharing my criticism.
I've never said Israel has no right to exist. And when I talk about Israeli's going back to America I always make it perfectly clear that I'm talking about the settlers who live in illegal Jewish-only settlements. Israel needs to be pressured into abiding by international law, and if that means sanctions, then so be it.
That's all.
I've never read a single word here suggesting Israel doesn't have a right to exist, or that anyone should invade Israel.
no one wants that.
but empires fall, and when you stand alone against public opinion, world opinion, and you continue to break international law, and when your superpower buddy stops being a superpower, what other outcome can you expect?
i believe israel has the right to exist, but not as a "jewish only state", especially if there are multiple religious groups residing and worshipping in that land for the last several centuries. to suggest that israel is for jews only suggests that jews are superior and only serves to validate the jewish population and to subjugate those in the minority. it allows for no diversity, and perpetuates the belief that palestinian citizens are inferior....... and does not admit the treachery of the idf or the settlers. to me it is the same thing as american southerners stating that immigrants have forfeited their rights to anything once they have reached our shores.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
See, that's the whole point though. Israel the Jewish state. The only one in the world. That is the whole point of the state, the entire reason for its founding. To say that you believe that Israel has a right to exist, but not as a Jewish state is just wordplay. What people mean when they ask whether somebody believes in Israel's right to exist is whether they acknowledge the equal right of the Jewish people to a state of their own, and if your response is that you don't believe that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state (Jewish majority, not Jewish only) you are really saying is that you don't believe in Israel's right to exist.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
See, that's the whole point though. Israel the Jewish state. The only one in the world. That is the whole point of the state, the entire reason for its founding. To say that you believe that Israel has a right to exist, but not as a Jewish state is just wordplay. What people mean when they ask whether somebody believes in Israel's right to exist is whether they acknowledge the equal right of the Jewish people to a state of their own, and if your response is that you don't believe that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state (Jewish majority, not Jewish only) you are really saying is that you don't believe in Israel's right to exist.
talk about word play yosi... jewish state.. jewish majority... sure israel has a right to exist but it does not have a right to oppress those people who already live there. it does not have a right to deny them their human rights. that is no way to form a state. did they think this is a case of terra nullius? do you? one of the mosty irksome policies of this jewish state is the right of return for any jew regardless of the fact that theyve never been to israel previously and the denial of the right of return for palestinian refugees who were driven from their home by war. why is it aceptable for diasporic jews to contibute to the state but not ok for those nonjews who already live on the land to do so? jews have been living alongside palestinians for many mnay years and theyve been doing relatively peacefully. so ask yourself why does there seem to be such opposition to a single state? why is it essential that israel be a jewish only or jewish majority state?? if the israeli govt wants a safe state then it has to embrace everyone who lives within its borders, not just those it deems worthy.. cause quite frankly everyone is worthy. the palestinian people are not at odds with the israeli govt because of religion... they are at odds because the govt continues to deny that palestinians as equals and until they do israel is doomed to a cycle of violence and hatred. why do you think the violence continues yosi? do you think its political or religious?
and no i dont believe israel has the right to exist as a jewish only state and do not tell me by saying so i believe israel doesnt have the right to exist because that is not what i am saying... and you know it. if israel becomes a state with a jewish majority through natural happenstance and without the abusive behaviour employed by the israeli govt then so be it. but to use the machinations they currently do to attain, then maintain a majority is wrong and its an aborrant violation of human rights.
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Israel is not currently (and isn't seeking to be) a Jewish only state. It is a Jewish majority state, and since it sees itself as a Jewish state it acts to preserve that majority. One way it does so is through the law of return, which is functionally no different than the same sort of laws in other countries. For example, Germany has a law that allows ethnic Germans to move to Germany and get citizenship regardless of whether they or their direct family have ever lived in Germany. The fact that Israel controls the immigration of non-Jews into the country more strictly than does Germany is a function of size. Germany is large enough to absorb many non-Germans without risk of becoming a majority non-German country. Israel, because of its tiny size simply can't act the same way (though in truth immigration controls are not so strict in practice because there are not all that many non-Jews seeking to move to Israel - I am treating the Palestinians separately).
With regard to the Palestinian refugees there are two points to be made. The first is that if one accepts in principle the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their own state then one cannot call for the implementation of a Palestinian right of return because it is tantamount to calling for the end of Israel's Jewish majority, and therefore the functional nullification of the Jewish right to self-determination. I understand that you are viewing the issue of the refugees through the lens of human rights, but what you are talking about is the casual disregard of one people's rights so as to give preference to another's. I understand the tragedy of the Palestinian experience, which is why I support the establishment of a Palestinian state that would grant the refugees a right of return.
The other point to be made is that the vast majority of the refugees are not in fact refugees, but the descendants of refugees, and therefore don't actually have any rightful claim to return. The only reason these people are considered refugees is because the UN, instead of treating them as they do all other refugee groups, created a separate organization to deal with the Palestinians that has perpetuated their refugee status for generations. Go look at how the UN high commissioner for refugees defines the term, and what the priorities are for helping refugees. You will see that refugees are those that are fleeing conflict/disaster/etc. and that the priority is to get them settled and reintegrated into society (whether it is in their home countries or in other countries). Once this is done these people are no longer considered refugees. Certainly their children are not considered refugees. With the Palestinians however, who do not fall under the auspices of the UNHCR, the UN, rather than seeking to get the refugees integrated into society so that they can lead productive lives has perpetuated their refugee status for decades, keeping the refugees and their children and grandchildren in refugee camps, entirely dependent on UN aid rather than making any effort to help them integrate into the societies in which they live. There is really no good reason that the grandchild of a Palestinian refugee, born in Lebanon, should himself be considered a refugee, live his life in a refugee camp with, at best, very limited rights within the country of his birth, unable to be a productive member of society.
I'm all for Israel paying reparations to the actual refugees. But the perpetuation of the "refugees" for generation after generation, and the idea that these people have a right to return (which is in practical terms a claim to a right to erase the fundamental nature of another people's state) is one of the fundamental reasons for the perpetuation of this conflict.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
you are suggesting a statute of limitations on a land grab. send in the military, kick people out, and if its takes longer than a generation for them to return they have no right to it. that mentality encourages military expansion, worldwide.
military expansion is something to be avoided on a world scene, yeah?
jews are like anybody else, people, human beings. very few religions on the planet have a religious state, and considering the diversity in the region, claiming an all jewish state is absurd, it excludes many people from participating in the state. diversity is not to be feared.
meanwhile Israel is fighting to maintain its "jewish national character", and that seems to me racist.
Israel is not currently (and isn't seeking to be) a Jewish only state. It is a Jewish majority state, and since it sees itself as a Jewish state it acts to preserve that majority. One way it does so is through the law of return, which is functionally no different than the same sort of laws in other countries. For example, Germany has a law that allows ethnic Germans to move to Germany and get citizenship regardless of whether they or their direct family have ever lived in Germany. The fact that Israel controls the immigration of non-Jews into the country more strictly than does Germany is a function of size. Germany is large enough to absorb many non-Germans without risk of becoming a majority non-German country. Israel, because of its tiny size simply can't act the same way (though in truth immigration controls are not so strict in practice because there are not all that many non-Jews seeking to move to Israel - I am treating the Palestinians separately).
With regard to the Palestinian refugees there are two points to be made. The first is that if one accepts in principle the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their own state then one cannot call for the implementation of a Palestinian right of return because it is tantamount to calling for the end of Israel's Jewish majority, and therefore the functional nullification of the Jewish right to self-determination. I understand that you are viewing the issue of the refugees through the lens of human rights, but what you are talking about is the casual disregard of one people's rights so as to give preference to another's. I understand the tragedy of the Palestinian experience, which is why I support the establishment of a Palestinian state that would grant the refugees a right of return.
The other point to be made is that the vast majority of the refugees are not in fact refugees, but the descendants of refugees, and therefore don't actually have any rightful claim to return. The only reason these people are considered refugees is because the UN, instead of treating them as they do all other refugee groups, created a separate organization to deal with the Palestinians that has perpetuated their refugee status for generations. Go look at how the UN high commissioner for refugees defines the term, and what the priorities are for helping refugees. You will see that refugees are those that are fleeing conflict/disaster/etc. and that the priority is to get them settled and reintegrated into society (whether it is in their home countries or in other countries). Once this is done these people are no longer considered refugees. Certainly their children are not considered refugees. With the Palestinians however, who do not fall under the auspices of the UNHCR, the UN, rather than seeking to get the refugees integrated into society so that they can lead productive lives has perpetuated their refugee status for decades, keeping the refugees and their children and grandchildren in refugee camps, entirely dependent on UN aid rather than making any effort to help them integrate into the societies in which they live. There is really no good reason that the grandchild of a Palestinian refugee, born in Lebanon, should himself be considered a refugee, live his life in a refugee camp with, at best, very limited rights within the country of his birth, unable to be a productive member of society.
I'm all for Israel paying reparations to the actual refugees. But the perpetuation of the "refugees" for generation after generation, and the idea that these people have a right to return (which is in practical terms a claim to a right to erase the fundamental nature of another people's state) is one of the fundamental reasons for the perpetuation of this conflict.
and heres my problem yosi... i can be jewish and live my entire life in australia and if i so desire emigrate to israel, even though my only connection to the land is through religion... yet the child of a palestinian displaced by war can not return to israel despite it being the homeland of their parents. remembering of course that without that war, the parents wouldnt be refugees in the first place. how is this fair? and how isnt it practical when there is room for jews to contribute to israeli society but not palestinians. why not welcome back the displaced palestinians and the families of the displaced back to their homeland just like jews are welcomed?
however i agree with you that corralling these people in refugee camps ad infinitum shows a lack of foresight.
i also see by your post that you are in support of a 2 state solution. do you think thats equitably feasible?
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Israel is not currently (and isn't seeking to be) a Jewish only state. It is a Jewish majority state, and since it sees itself as a Jewish state it acts to preserve that majority..
By keeping non jews out and by not granting non jews living in Israel the same rights as jews....
I don't think any other country in the world defines itself by it's religion and wants people to recognise the state as such (but correct me if I'm wrong). Recognising the State of Israel and it's right to live in peace goes without saying. Having to recognise it as a jewish state is another thing. PLO and Hamas have both recognised Israel within the 1967 borders - Israel has changed the goalposts adding 'jewish'.
Jewish in terms of the country's dominant national group. Not Jewish in terms of religion. And Israel grants equal rights to all its citizens, regardless of whether they are Jewish or not.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Jewish in terms of the country's dominant national group. Not Jewish in terms of religion. And Israel grants equal rights to all its citizens, regardless of whether they are Jewish or not.
Hmmmm.... let me think where there are 'anomalies'... land, citizenship, marriage.....
Israel does not bar Jews and non-Jews from marrying. Israel has non-Jewish citizens, and has a naturalization process through which non-Jews can become citizens. There are issues surrounding the use of government owned land (it is an ongoing legal case in Israel's supreme court), but there are no laws restricting the sale of private land to non-Jews.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Israel does not bar Jews and non-Jews from marrying. Israel has non-Jewish citizens, and has a naturalization process through which non-Jews can become citizens. There are issues surrounding the use of government owned land (it is an ongoing legal case in Israel's supreme court), but there are no laws restricting the sale of private land to non-Jews.
Of course the law doesn't bar intermarriage. But should an arab living in israel wish to marry a arab living in palestine, this spouse is not allowed to set foot in Israel. A jew living in israel wishing to marry a jew living in France, this spouse can live in israel. One example. Oh.. and citizenship... the famous pledge to the jewish state...
Land.... 80% of the land is government owned & 14% is owned by the JNF (Jewish National Fund). So basically, approx 94% of the land is administered by one body - the ILA. Doesn't leave much land privately owned. ...
Anyway, somewhere in another thread, these 'equal' rights have been discussed and loads of details and examples of 'equality' have already been given so I won't dwell on this.
Jewish in terms of the country's dominant national group. Not Jewish in terms of religion. And Israel grants equal rights to all its citizens, regardless of whether they are Jewish or not.
do you consider gaza and the west bank to be a part of israel?
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Comments
I've never said Israel has no right to exist. And when I talk about Israeli's going back to America I always make it perfectly clear that I'm talking about the settlers who live in illegal Jewish-only settlements. Israel needs to be pressured into abiding by international law, and if that means sanctions, then so be it.
That's all.
no one wants that.
but empires fall, and when you stand alone against public opinion, world opinion, and you continue to break international law, and when your superpower buddy stops being a superpower, what other outcome can you expect?
i believe israel has the right to exist, but not as a "jewish only state", especially if there are multiple religious groups residing and worshipping in that land for the last several centuries. to suggest that israel is for jews only suggests that jews are superior and only serves to validate the jewish population and to subjugate those in the minority. it allows for no diversity, and perpetuates the belief that palestinian citizens are inferior....... and does not admit the treachery of the idf or the settlers. to me it is the same thing as american southerners stating that immigrants have forfeited their rights to anything once they have reached our shores.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
But not as a Jewish state.
the jewish people of the region ought to get along with other people of the region.
talk about word play yosi... jewish state.. jewish majority... sure israel has a right to exist but it does not have a right to oppress those people who already live there. it does not have a right to deny them their human rights. that is no way to form a state. did they think this is a case of terra nullius? do you? one of the mosty irksome policies of this jewish state is the right of return for any jew regardless of the fact that theyve never been to israel previously and the denial of the right of return for palestinian refugees who were driven from their home by war. why is it aceptable for diasporic jews to contibute to the state but not ok for those nonjews who already live on the land to do so? jews have been living alongside palestinians for many mnay years and theyve been doing relatively peacefully. so ask yourself why does there seem to be such opposition to a single state? why is it essential that israel be a jewish only or jewish majority state?? if the israeli govt wants a safe state then it has to embrace everyone who lives within its borders, not just those it deems worthy.. cause quite frankly everyone is worthy. the palestinian people are not at odds with the israeli govt because of religion... they are at odds because the govt continues to deny that palestinians as equals and until they do israel is doomed to a cycle of violence and hatred. why do you think the violence continues yosi? do you think its political or religious?
and no i dont believe israel has the right to exist as a jewish only state and do not tell me by saying so i believe israel doesnt have the right to exist because that is not what i am saying... and you know it. if israel becomes a state with a jewish majority through natural happenstance and without the abusive behaviour employed by the israeli govt then so be it. but to use the machinations they currently do to attain, then maintain a majority is wrong and its an aborrant violation of human rights.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
With regard to the Palestinian refugees there are two points to be made. The first is that if one accepts in principle the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their own state then one cannot call for the implementation of a Palestinian right of return because it is tantamount to calling for the end of Israel's Jewish majority, and therefore the functional nullification of the Jewish right to self-determination. I understand that you are viewing the issue of the refugees through the lens of human rights, but what you are talking about is the casual disregard of one people's rights so as to give preference to another's. I understand the tragedy of the Palestinian experience, which is why I support the establishment of a Palestinian state that would grant the refugees a right of return.
The other point to be made is that the vast majority of the refugees are not in fact refugees, but the descendants of refugees, and therefore don't actually have any rightful claim to return. The only reason these people are considered refugees is because the UN, instead of treating them as they do all other refugee groups, created a separate organization to deal with the Palestinians that has perpetuated their refugee status for generations. Go look at how the UN high commissioner for refugees defines the term, and what the priorities are for helping refugees. You will see that refugees are those that are fleeing conflict/disaster/etc. and that the priority is to get them settled and reintegrated into society (whether it is in their home countries or in other countries). Once this is done these people are no longer considered refugees. Certainly their children are not considered refugees. With the Palestinians however, who do not fall under the auspices of the UNHCR, the UN, rather than seeking to get the refugees integrated into society so that they can lead productive lives has perpetuated their refugee status for decades, keeping the refugees and their children and grandchildren in refugee camps, entirely dependent on UN aid rather than making any effort to help them integrate into the societies in which they live. There is really no good reason that the grandchild of a Palestinian refugee, born in Lebanon, should himself be considered a refugee, live his life in a refugee camp with, at best, very limited rights within the country of his birth, unable to be a productive member of society.
I'm all for Israel paying reparations to the actual refugees. But the perpetuation of the "refugees" for generation after generation, and the idea that these people have a right to return (which is in practical terms a claim to a right to erase the fundamental nature of another people's state) is one of the fundamental reasons for the perpetuation of this conflict.
military expansion is something to be avoided on a world scene, yeah?
jews are like anybody else, people, human beings. very few religions on the planet have a religious state, and considering the diversity in the region, claiming an all jewish state is absurd, it excludes many people from participating in the state. diversity is not to be feared.
meanwhile Israel is fighting to maintain its "jewish national character", and that seems to me racist.
and heres my problem yosi... i can be jewish and live my entire life in australia and if i so desire emigrate to israel, even though my only connection to the land is through religion... yet the child of a palestinian displaced by war can not return to israel despite it being the homeland of their parents. remembering of course that without that war, the parents wouldnt be refugees in the first place. how is this fair? and how isnt it practical when there is room for jews to contribute to israeli society but not palestinians. why not welcome back the displaced palestinians and the families of the displaced back to their homeland just like jews are welcomed?
however i agree with you that corralling these people in refugee camps ad infinitum shows a lack of foresight.
i also see by your post that you are in support of a 2 state solution. do you think thats equitably feasible?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
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i just need to say
By keeping non jews out and by not granting non jews living in Israel the same rights as jews....
I don't think any other country in the world defines itself by it's religion and wants people to recognise the state as such (but correct me if I'm wrong). Recognising the State of Israel and it's right to live in peace goes without saying. Having to recognise it as a jewish state is another thing. PLO and Hamas have both recognised Israel within the 1967 borders - Israel has changed the goalposts adding 'jewish'.
Hmmmm.... let me think where there are 'anomalies'... land, citizenship, marriage.....
Of course the law doesn't bar intermarriage. But should an arab living in israel wish to marry a arab living in palestine, this spouse is not allowed to set foot in Israel. A jew living in israel wishing to marry a jew living in France, this spouse can live in israel. One example. Oh.. and citizenship... the famous pledge to the jewish state...
Land.... 80% of the land is government owned & 14% is owned by the JNF (Jewish National Fund). So basically, approx 94% of the land is administered by one body - the ILA. Doesn't leave much land privately owned. ...
Anyway, somewhere in another thread, these 'equal' rights have been discussed and loads of details and examples of 'equality' have already been given so I won't dwell on this.
do you consider gaza and the west bank to be a part of israel?
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say