Israel starts Egypt border fence

yosi

I know. I believe you. I really do. I just think that we all allow our emotions to get the best of us sometimes, and that at those times we fall back on strident rhetoric without really considering the full implications of the words we are using.

fife

TriumphantAngel wrote:

fife wrote:

Just asking why people are not commenting on the part of the article that states that Egypt is also shooting people crossing their boarders?

Egypt is also shooting people crossing the borders yes. that's right. does that make Israels actions any better in someones eyes because someone else is doing it too? bottomline is that Egypt is just another one of Israel's lapdogs.

anyone with any understanding of the situation would recognize that Egypt is definitely no angel here. Israel and Egypt are both culpable for the blockade and imprisonment of the Palestinians in one way or another.

at the end of the day though it's Israel who has Gaza under siege. it's Israel who are continuing with the illegal settlement expansions and holding an entire population of peoples imprisoned. remember operation cast lead? the IDF murdered over 1200 people in 22 days. did Egypt use apache helicopters and tanks and jets and bombs on densely populated Gaza killing hundreds of children and civillians. no, but Israel did.

you know there's plenty of Israeli citizens who do learn the truth about the suffering and loss of all human rights in Gaza and the West Bank, and they are horrified at the conditions. they form groups, they protest, they write, and they march in solidarity with the Palestinian refugees. others just make excuses and try to blame everyone else to take the focus off Israels actions. (ohhh look what Egypt is doing, if Egypt is doing it too we can't be that bad). fact is their actions are bad. just terrible.

Israel is a racist zionist militant State, conducting a siege against an impoverished group of people, brutalizing and terrorizing every day.

and yes, they do that with help from their buddies.

that is reality.

Thank you for the post but just reading the article again and i can be wrong but it really didn't mention Gaza but did mention africa. so just wondering why the need to mention what Isreal is doing in Gaza.

fife

yosi wrote:

Triumphant, I don't think the comment you are responding to made the claim (that you seemingly infer) that Israel's actions are not as bad because Egypt does bad things also. I think the comment was aimed more at pointing out the lopsidedness of the outrage on this board, the fact that only the misdeeds of Israel get mentioned here while everyone else's are largely ignored.

Thank you yosi, that was exactly my point.

redrock

yosi wrote:

I have issues, however, with broad statements such as "Israel is a racist zionist militant State, conducting a siege against an impoverished group of people, brutalizing and terrorizing every day."

Seems an adequate description given the circumstances

yosi wrote:

I have a problem with Israel being described as racist state (as opposed to specific people or policies being racist). .

But it is. The state is it's policies, which are racist. Not saying all the israelis are, but the state is.

Commy

yosi wrote:

I know. I believe you. I really do. I just think that we all allow our emotions to get the best of us sometimes, and that at those times we fall back on strident rhetoric without really considering the full implications of the words we are using.

you call her posts "emotional rhetoric" and expect a calm reasoned debate? interesting approach.


i'd absolutely consider Israel a racist, zionist, violent state. history could be my guide to prove that. this isn't about you, (or me, or her) its about what we can prove. and if you'd like this thread to turn into a list of Israeli crimes, if you are really calling TA on her claim that Israel is violent and racist, we can certainly do that.


i find it interesting not one person has replied to the racism behind netanyahoos original statement. so far the only defense has been, "Israel is not racist".


the message netanyahoo conveys is that if you are not a jew you are not wanted....the actions of expelling and building settlements for jews, the loyalty oath, these things are done because the people they are dealing with are non jews, and that is unacceptable to them.

While the racist leaders of Israel lead on.

catefrances

i can not fathom how anyone can see the israel govts actions against the palestinian peoples as anything other than racist.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

And while I certainly do not condone Israeli treatment of the Palestinians I am troubled by the way in which your statements present such a black and white picture, as if Palestinian violence and rejectionism has never existed (to be clear I do not think that these two give Israel blanket justification for their actions, but a discussion of this issue that ignores such a large part of what is going on is skewed, and I think the goal here should be for people to have a discussion that is as calm, reasonable, honest, and truthful as possible).

And I'm troubled by the fact you get free reign to condescendingly look down your nose at everybody on this board and accuse us of being dishonest and untruthful.

You've had ample opportunity to address all of the specifics regarding the I/P issue, yet because things don't go your way you indulge in smug generalizations and accusations such as: 'your statements present such a black and white picture'...our arguments are skewed...we have tunnel vision...we indulge in emotional rhetoric - in between accusing us all of being anti-Semites.

Quite frankly, there's nothing reasonable, honest, or truthful about supporting Israel's ethnic cleansing, racism, and land grab.

You say you're opposed to the settlements? Then why, in light of your purported love of reason, honesty, and truthfulness, have we not once heard you voice any criticism of them?

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

I have issues, however, with broad statements such as "Israel is a racist zionist militant State, conducting a siege against an impoverished group of people, brutalizing and terrorizing every day."

Except it's not a broad statement. It't the truth. Israel is racist, it is Zionist, and it is militant. It's also conducting a seige against an impoverished group of people, brutalizing and terrorizing them every day.

So what issues can you possibly have with any of the above?

Seems to me that some people have an issue with the truth.

yosi

B, I think that I have actually said repeatedly that I oppose settlements. If this is not enough of a condemnation for you because I refuse to use the same sort of extreme language that you routinely do then I'm sorry. That's your issue, not mine.

"You say you're opposed to the settlements? Then why, in light of your purported love of reason, honesty, and truthfulness, have we not once heard you voice any criticism of them?" -- That's an interesting thing for you to say. So the test for love of reason, honesty, and truthfulness is that people agree with you? Is that in general or just on this particular issue? If you are coming to the discussion with the opinion that anyone who disagrees with you is utterly irrational and a liar to boot it is hard to see how there can be any sort of constructive dialogue.

But...since you asked I'll oblige you. I think the settlements are a strategic mistake. I think they are a suicidal enterprise for Israel. I think that given the effect of the settlements on the Palestinians that they are immoral. I do not think that the settlers as a group are bad people, since the vast majority of them are there for economic reasons. I do think that the extreme minority of settlers who attack Palestinians and are constantly setting up new outposts are absolutely crazy and dangerous, and they are certainly immoral.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

B, I think that I have actually said repeatedly that I oppose settlements. If this is not enough of a condemnation for you because I refuse to use the same sort of extreme language that you routinely do then I'm sorry. That's your issue, not mine.

And just what extreme language might that be?

yosi wrote:

"You say you're opposed to the settlements? Then why, in light of your purported love of reason, honesty, and truthfulness, have we not once heard you voice any criticism of them?" -- That's an interesting thing for you to say. So the test for love of reason, honesty, and truthfulness is that people agree with you? Is that in general or just on this particular issue? If you are coming to the discussion with the opinion that anyone who disagrees with you is utterly irrational and a liar to boot it is hard to see how there can be any sort of constructive dialogue.

It has nothing to do with anyone agreeing, or disagreeing with me. I simply pointed out that you've never criticized any of Israel's crimes, yet you pretend to be opposed to the settlements. I posted an article two days ago detailing yet another instance of settlement expansion where a Palestinian family of 14 were evicted from their home and all their possessions stolen by the Israeli's, and as usual you had nothing to say about it.

yosi wrote:

But...since you asked I'll oblige you. I think the settlements are a strategic mistake. I think they are a suicidal enterprise for Israel. I think that given the effect of the settlements on the Palestinians that they are immoral. I do not think that the settlers as a group are bad people, since the vast majority of them are there for economic reasons. I do think that the extreme minority of settlers who attack Palestinians and are constantly setting up new outposts are absolutely crazy and dangerous, and they are certainly immoral.

See, that wasn't so difficult now was it?

Just out of interest, how vocal are you about this to your friends and aquaintances within Israel? Is vocal opposition to the settlements and the lunatic violent element of settlers a common topic of discussion, or is it frowned upon and largely ignored or supported?

yosi

We talk about it all the time. It isn't taboo in the slightest. But we have that discussion within the framework of a shared knowledge that we all care about Israel and believe in her right to exist. When I come on this site and see people comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, and talking about how Israelis should just go back to America, and that the international community should invade Israel as retribution, I don't feel like this is a venue where I'm comfortable sharing my criticism.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

We talk about it all the time. It isn't taboo in the slightest. But we have that discussion within the framework of a shared knowledge that we all care about Israel and believe in her right to exist. When I come on this site and see people comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, and talking about how Israelis should just go back to America, and that the international community should invade Israel as retribution, I don't feel like this is a venue where I'm comfortable sharing my criticism.

I've never said Israel has no right to exist. And when I talk about Israeli's going back to America I always make it perfectly clear that I'm talking about the settlers who live in illegal Jewish-only settlements. Israel needs to be pressured into abiding by international law, and if that means sanctions, then so be it.

That's all.

Commy

Byrnzie wrote:

yosi wrote:

We talk about it all the time. It isn't taboo in the slightest. But we have that discussion within the framework of a shared knowledge that we all care about Israel and believe in her right to exist. When I come on this site and see people comparing Israel to Nazi Germany, and talking about how Israelis should just go back to America, and that the international community should invade Israel as retribution, I don't feel like this is a venue where I'm comfortable sharing my criticism.

I've never said Israel has no right to exist. And when I talk about Israeli's going back to America I always make it perfectly clear that I'm talking about the settlers who live in illegal Jewish-only settlements. Israel needs to be pressured into abiding by international law, and if that means sanctions, then so be it.

That's all.

I've never read a single word here suggesting Israel doesn't have a right to exist, or that anyone should invade Israel.


no one wants that.



but empires fall, and when you stand alone against public opinion, world opinion, and you continue to break international law, and when your superpower buddy stops being a superpower, what other outcome can you expect?

yosi

Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state?

gimmesometruth27

i should not, but i will take the bait....

i believe israel has the right to exist, but not as a "jewish only state", especially if there are multiple religious groups residing and worshipping in that land for the last several centuries. to suggest that israel is for jews only suggests that jews are superior and only serves to validate the jewish population and to subjugate those in the minority. it allows for no diversity, and perpetuates the belief that palestinian citizens are inferior....... and does not admit the treachery of the idf or the settlers. to me it is the same thing as american southerners stating that immigrants have forfeited their rights to anything once they have reached our shores.

Commy

I believe Israel has a right to exist.


But not as a Jewish state.


the jewish people of the region ought to get along with other people of the region.

yosi

See, that's the whole point though. Israel the Jewish state. The only one in the world. That is the whole point of the state, the entire reason for its founding. To say that you believe that Israel has a right to exist, but not as a Jewish state is just wordplay. What people mean when they ask whether somebody believes in Israel's right to exist is whether they acknowledge the equal right of the Jewish people to a state of their own, and if your response is that you don't believe that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state (Jewish majority, not Jewish only) you are really saying is that you don't believe in Israel's right to exist.

ajedigecko

yosi wrote:

Do you believe that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state?

yes.

catefrances

yosi wrote:

See, that's the whole point though. Israel the Jewish state. The only one in the world. That is the whole point of the state, the entire reason for its founding. To say that you believe that Israel has a right to exist, but not as a Jewish state is just wordplay. What people mean when they ask whether somebody believes in Israel's right to exist is whether they acknowledge the equal right of the Jewish people to a state of their own, and if your response is that you don't believe that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state (Jewish majority, not Jewish only) you are really saying is that you don't believe in Israel's right to exist.

talk about word play yosi... jewish state.. jewish majority... sure israel has a right to exist but it does not have a right to oppress those people who already live there. it does not have a right to deny them their human rights. that is no way to form a state. did they think this is a case of terra nullius? do you? one of the mosty irksome policies of this jewish state is the right of return for any jew regardless of the fact that theyve never been to israel previously and the denial of the right of return for palestinian refugees who were driven from their home by war. why is it aceptable for diasporic jews to contibute to the state but not ok for those nonjews who already live on the land to do so? jews have been living alongside palestinians for many mnay years and theyve been doing relatively peacefully. so ask yourself why does there seem to be such opposition to a single state? why is it essential that israel be a jewish only or jewish majority state?? if the israeli govt wants a safe state then it has to embrace everyone who lives within its borders, not just those it deems worthy.. cause quite frankly everyone is worthy. the palestinian people are not at odds with the israeli govt because of religion... they are at odds because the govt continues to deny that palestinians as equals and until they do israel is doomed to a cycle of violence and hatred. why do you think the violence continues yosi? do you think its political or religious?

and no i dont believe israel has the right to exist as a jewish only state and do not tell me by saying so i believe israel doesnt have the right to exist because that is not what i am saying... and you know it. if israel becomes a state with a jewish majority through natural happenstance and without the abusive behaviour employed by the israeli govt then so be it. but to use the machinations they currently do to attain, then maintain a majority is wrong and its an aborrant violation of human rights.

yosi

Israel is not currently (and isn't seeking to be) a Jewish only state. It is a Jewish majority state, and since it sees itself as a Jewish state it acts to preserve that majority. One way it does so is through the law of return, which is functionally no different than the same sort of laws in other countries. For example, Germany has a law that allows ethnic Germans to move to Germany and get citizenship regardless of whether they or their direct family have ever lived in Germany. The fact that Israel controls the immigration of non-Jews into the country more strictly than does Germany is a function of size. Germany is large enough to absorb many non-Germans without risk of becoming a majority non-German country. Israel, because of its tiny size simply can't act the same way (though in truth immigration controls are not so strict in practice because there are not all that many non-Jews seeking to move to Israel - I am treating the Palestinians separately).

With regard to the Palestinian refugees there are two points to be made. The first is that if one accepts in principle the right of the Jewish people to self-determination in their own state then one cannot call for the implementation of a Palestinian right of return because it is tantamount to calling for the end of Israel's Jewish majority, and therefore the functional nullification of the Jewish right to self-determination. I understand that you are viewing the issue of the refugees through the lens of human rights, but what you are talking about is the casual disregard of one people's rights so as to give preference to another's. I understand the tragedy of the Palestinian experience, which is why I support the establishment of a Palestinian state that would grant the refugees a right of return.

The other point to be made is that the vast majority of the refugees are not in fact refugees, but the descendants of refugees, and therefore don't actually have any rightful claim to return. The only reason these people are considered refugees is because the UN, instead of treating them as they do all other refugee groups, created a separate organization to deal with the Palestinians that has perpetuated their refugee status for generations. Go look at how the UN high commissioner for refugees defines the term, and what the priorities are for helping refugees. You will see that refugees are those that are fleeing conflict/disaster/etc. and that the priority is to get them settled and reintegrated into society (whether it is in their home countries or in other countries). Once this is done these people are no longer considered refugees. Certainly their children are not considered refugees. With the Palestinians however, who do not fall under the auspices of the UNHCR, the UN, rather than seeking to get the refugees integrated into society so that they can lead productive lives has perpetuated their refugee status for decades, keeping the refugees and their children and grandchildren in refugee camps, entirely dependent on UN aid rather than making any effort to help them integrate into the societies in which they live. There is really no good reason that the grandchild of a Palestinian refugee, born in Lebanon, should himself be considered a refugee, live his life in a refugee camp with, at best, very limited rights within the country of his birth, unable to be a productive member of society.

I'm all for Israel paying reparations to the actual refugees. But the perpetuation of the "refugees" for generation after generation, and the idea that these people have a right to return (which is in practical terms a claim to a right to erase the fundamental nature of another people's state) is one of the fundamental reasons for the perpetuation of this conflict.