Israel starts Egypt border fence

Commy

complete with racist comments from netanyahu.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-11809957



Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has described the influx of illegal migrants across the border as a major threat to "the Jewish and democratic character of the state of Israel".

ie, non jews are a threat.

Byrnzie

I fail to see anything democratic in a racist, exclusivist state.

Commy

true, what "democratic character"?

yosi

You guys are so right! A state that elects governments based on the will of its citizens (including the non-Jewish ones) has no democratic character whatsoever. :roll:

Commy

sure there's a vote, but when you control the demographic its not democratic.

yosi

What does that even mean! Every country controls the demographics of its citizenry vis-a-vis immigration. There is nothing morally wrong with that.

Commy

they are exluding people and building a fence because they aren't jewish. pure racism.

and i was referring to the loyalty oath. to gain citizenship in Israel you are required to pledge allegiance to a "jewish state". kind of hard if you fit into the 99% of the world's 'other' population.

yosi

Israel grants citizenship to non-Jews through a process of naturalization just like any other liberal democracy. The fact that Israel favors Jews in matters of immigration is no different than any of the European countries that do the same thing (Germany, the Netherlands, to name but a few).

The loyalty oath I completely disagree with. Period.

catefrances

yosi wrote:

You guys are so right! A state that elects governments based on the will of its citizens (including the non-Jewish ones) has no democratic character whatsoever. :roll:

do you think free voting automatically classes a country as democratic?


and i have to disagree with you yosi.. i find it very difficult to class any country that denies the rights of a vast number of its population as democratic.

Cree Nations

Israel is such a ridiculous joke, far too much valuable time is spent on these troublemakers, invade them already, build a fence around them and let them live in their "utopian" society.....as long as no one gets out...its good, if they have to leave for whaever reason, the UN can grant them passes

Cree Nations

actually, i just realized they are already builiding a fence to keep people out, hence, this is an excellent opportunity to have the international community turn the tables on them and say " Hah Hah", have the UN invade them now and keep them inside the fence, tear down the portions though that they are buidling in the no go zone and give them back to Palestine, think of Israel as a giant kibuttz (sp?)

After those Israeli commandos bordered that ship and killed a dozen or so people, I lost all respect for them, I mean I lost respect for them before but after that.....

fife

Just asking why people are not commenting on the part of the article that states that Egypt is also shooting people crossing their boarders?

catefrances

fife wrote:

Just asking why people are not commenting on the part of the article that states that Egypt is also shooting people crossing their boarders?

trespassers will be shot.


my only comment(aside from the one above ) is that of course shooting border crossers is not right we all know its not right and i condemn this action. and i use my sternest, most earnest tone in doing so.

TriumphantAngel

fife wrote:

Just asking why people are not commenting on the part of the article that states that Egypt is also shooting people crossing their boarders?

Egypt is also shooting people crossing the borders yes. that's right. does that make Israels actions any better in someones eyes because someone else is doing it too? bottomline is that Egypt is just another one of Israel's lapdogs.

anyone with any understanding of the situation would recognize that Egypt is definitely no angel here. Israel and Egypt are both culpable for the blockade and imprisonment of the Palestinians in one way or another.

at the end of the day though it's Israel who has Gaza under siege. it's Israel who are continuing with the illegal settlement expansions and holding an entire population of peoples imprisoned. remember operation cast lead? the IDF murdered over 1200 people in 22 days. did Egypt use apache helicopters and tanks and jets and bombs on densely populated Gaza killing hundreds of children and civillians. no, but Israel did.

you know there's plenty of Israeli citizens who do learn the truth about the suffering and loss of all human rights in Gaza and the West Bank, and they are horrified at the conditions. they form groups, they protest, they write, and they march in solidarity with the Palestinian refugees. others just make excuses and try to blame everyone else to take the focus off Israels actions. (ohhh look what Egypt is doing, if Egypt is doing it too we can't be that bad). fact is their actions are bad. just terrible.

Israel is a racist zionist militant State, conducting a siege against an impoverished group of people, brutalizing and terrorizing every day.

and yes, they do that with help from their buddies.

that is reality.

yosi

Triumphant, I don't think the comment you are responding to made the claim (that you seemingly infer) that Israel's actions are not as bad because Egypt does bad things also. I think the comment was aimed more at pointing out the lopsidedness of the outrage on this board, the fact that only the misdeeds of Israel get mentioned here while everyone else's are largely ignored.

yosi

And could you please tone down the "Israel is the devil" rhetoric? Please. I believe that you have the best intentions, but I find it difficult not to be offended by your comments when you speak this way.

TriumphantAngel

yosi wrote:

And could you please tone down the "Israel is the devil" rhetoric? Please. I believe that you have the best intentions, but I find it difficult not to be offended by your comments when you speak this way.

i don't mean to offend you Yosi.

i find it difficult to not be offended when Israel acts this way.

yosi

I have no problem with you taking offense at a particular Israeli action or policy. I am offended by a lot of things Israel does, so I understand the sentiment. I have issues, however, with broad statements such as "Israel is a racist zionist militant State, conducting a siege against an impoverished group of people, brutalizing and terrorizing every day." For one thing as a Zionist (a believer in the Jewish right to self-determination) I have a problem with Zionism being used as a pejorative word. I have a problem with Israel being described as racist state (as opposed to specific people or policies being racist). And while I certainly do not condone Israeli treatment of the Palestinians I am troubled by the way in which your statements present such a black and white picture, as if Palestinian violence and rejectionism has never existed (to be clear I do not think that these two give Israel blanket justification for their actions, but a discussion of this issue that ignores such a large part of what is going on is skewed, and I think the goal here should be for people to have a discussion that is as calm, reasonable, honest, and truthful as possible).

TriumphantAngel

yosi wrote:

Triumphant, I don't think the comment you are responding to made the claim (that you seemingly infer) that Israel's actions are not as bad because Egypt does bad things also. I think the comment was aimed more at pointing out the lopsidedness of the outrage on this board, the fact that only the misdeeds of Israel get mentioned here while everyone else's are largely ignored.

i actually answered why i feel Israel gets mentioned more in my post above. just my thoughts. whether people agree or disagree is another story i guess yosi but i explained why i feel like i do.

TriumphantAngel

yosi wrote:

I think the goal here should be for people to have a discussion that is as calm, reasonable, honest, and truthful as possible).

that's what i always try my best to do Yosi.

yosi

That's fair enough, although it seems to me that your response itself employs the same sort of tunnel vision (i.e. you set Egypt up as Israel's lapdog so that you are then able to essentially blame Israel for Egypt's actions). I also happen to disagree with you. Egypt and Israel have a very cold peace, and I'd hardly say that Egypt answers to Israel in any way whatsoever. Egypt has its own reasons for acting as it does towards Gaza, namely that in light of the popular standing of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt the Egyptian leadership see Hamas as a clear threat to themselves.

yosi

I know. I believe you. I really do. I just think that we all allow our emotions to get the best of us sometimes, and that at those times we fall back on strident rhetoric without really considering the full implications of the words we are using.

fife

TriumphantAngel wrote:

fife wrote:

Just asking why people are not commenting on the part of the article that states that Egypt is also shooting people crossing their boarders?

Egypt is also shooting people crossing the borders yes. that's right. does that make Israels actions any better in someones eyes because someone else is doing it too? bottomline is that Egypt is just another one of Israel's lapdogs.

anyone with any understanding of the situation would recognize that Egypt is definitely no angel here. Israel and Egypt are both culpable for the blockade and imprisonment of the Palestinians in one way or another.

at the end of the day though it's Israel who has Gaza under siege. it's Israel who are continuing with the illegal settlement expansions and holding an entire population of peoples imprisoned. remember operation cast lead? the IDF murdered over 1200 people in 22 days. did Egypt use apache helicopters and tanks and jets and bombs on densely populated Gaza killing hundreds of children and civillians. no, but Israel did.

you know there's plenty of Israeli citizens who do learn the truth about the suffering and loss of all human rights in Gaza and the West Bank, and they are horrified at the conditions. they form groups, they protest, they write, and they march in solidarity with the Palestinian refugees. others just make excuses and try to blame everyone else to take the focus off Israels actions. (ohhh look what Egypt is doing, if Egypt is doing it too we can't be that bad). fact is their actions are bad. just terrible.

Israel is a racist zionist militant State, conducting a siege against an impoverished group of people, brutalizing and terrorizing every day.

and yes, they do that with help from their buddies.

that is reality.

Thank you for the post but just reading the article again and i can be wrong but it really didn't mention Gaza but did mention africa. so just wondering why the need to mention what Isreal is doing in Gaza.

fife

yosi wrote:

Triumphant, I don't think the comment you are responding to made the claim (that you seemingly infer) that Israel's actions are not as bad because Egypt does bad things also. I think the comment was aimed more at pointing out the lopsidedness of the outrage on this board, the fact that only the misdeeds of Israel get mentioned here while everyone else's are largely ignored.

Thank you yosi, that was exactly my point.

redrock

yosi wrote:

I have issues, however, with broad statements such as "Israel is a racist zionist militant State, conducting a siege against an impoverished group of people, brutalizing and terrorizing every day."

Seems an adequate description given the circumstances

yosi wrote:

I have a problem with Israel being described as racist state (as opposed to specific people or policies being racist). .

But it is. The state is it's policies, which are racist. Not saying all the israelis are, but the state is.

Commy

yosi wrote:

I know. I believe you. I really do. I just think that we all allow our emotions to get the best of us sometimes, and that at those times we fall back on strident rhetoric without really considering the full implications of the words we are using.

you call her posts "emotional rhetoric" and expect a calm reasoned debate? interesting approach.


i'd absolutely consider Israel a racist, zionist, violent state. history could be my guide to prove that. this isn't about you, (or me, or her) its about what we can prove. and if you'd like this thread to turn into a list of Israeli crimes, if you are really calling TA on her claim that Israel is violent and racist, we can certainly do that.


i find it interesting not one person has replied to the racism behind netanyahoos original statement. so far the only defense has been, "Israel is not racist".


the message netanyahoo conveys is that if you are not a jew you are not wanted....the actions of expelling and building settlements for jews, the loyalty oath, these things are done because the people they are dealing with are non jews, and that is unacceptable to them.

While the racist leaders of Israel lead on.

catefrances

i can not fathom how anyone can see the israel govts actions against the palestinian peoples as anything other than racist.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

And while I certainly do not condone Israeli treatment of the Palestinians I am troubled by the way in which your statements present such a black and white picture, as if Palestinian violence and rejectionism has never existed (to be clear I do not think that these two give Israel blanket justification for their actions, but a discussion of this issue that ignores such a large part of what is going on is skewed, and I think the goal here should be for people to have a discussion that is as calm, reasonable, honest, and truthful as possible).

And I'm troubled by the fact you get free reign to condescendingly look down your nose at everybody on this board and accuse us of being dishonest and untruthful.

You've had ample opportunity to address all of the specifics regarding the I/P issue, yet because things don't go your way you indulge in smug generalizations and accusations such as: 'your statements present such a black and white picture'...our arguments are skewed...we have tunnel vision...we indulge in emotional rhetoric - in between accusing us all of being anti-Semites.

Quite frankly, there's nothing reasonable, honest, or truthful about supporting Israel's ethnic cleansing, racism, and land grab.

You say you're opposed to the settlements? Then why, in light of your purported love of reason, honesty, and truthfulness, have we not once heard you voice any criticism of them?

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

I have issues, however, with broad statements such as "Israel is a racist zionist militant State, conducting a siege against an impoverished group of people, brutalizing and terrorizing every day."

Except it's not a broad statement. It't the truth. Israel is racist, it is Zionist, and it is militant. It's also conducting a seige against an impoverished group of people, brutalizing and terrorizing them every day.

So what issues can you possibly have with any of the above?

Seems to me that some people have an issue with the truth.

yosi

B, I think that I have actually said repeatedly that I oppose settlements. If this is not enough of a condemnation for you because I refuse to use the same sort of extreme language that you routinely do then I'm sorry. That's your issue, not mine.

"You say you're opposed to the settlements? Then why, in light of your purported love of reason, honesty, and truthfulness, have we not once heard you voice any criticism of them?" -- That's an interesting thing for you to say. So the test for love of reason, honesty, and truthfulness is that people agree with you? Is that in general or just on this particular issue? If you are coming to the discussion with the opinion that anyone who disagrees with you is utterly irrational and a liar to boot it is hard to see how there can be any sort of constructive dialogue.

But...since you asked I'll oblige you. I think the settlements are a strategic mistake. I think they are a suicidal enterprise for Israel. I think that given the effect of the settlements on the Palestinians that they are immoral. I do not think that the settlers as a group are bad people, since the vast majority of them are there for economic reasons. I do think that the extreme minority of settlers who attack Palestinians and are constantly setting up new outposts are absolutely crazy and dangerous, and they are certainly immoral.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

B, I think that I have actually said repeatedly that I oppose settlements. If this is not enough of a condemnation for you because I refuse to use the same sort of extreme language that you routinely do then I'm sorry. That's your issue, not mine.

And just what extreme language might that be?

yosi wrote:

"You say you're opposed to the settlements? Then why, in light of your purported love of reason, honesty, and truthfulness, have we not once heard you voice any criticism of them?" -- That's an interesting thing for you to say. So the test for love of reason, honesty, and truthfulness is that people agree with you? Is that in general or just on this particular issue? If you are coming to the discussion with the opinion that anyone who disagrees with you is utterly irrational and a liar to boot it is hard to see how there can be any sort of constructive dialogue.

It has nothing to do with anyone agreeing, or disagreeing with me. I simply pointed out that you've never criticized any of Israel's crimes, yet you pretend to be opposed to the settlements. I posted an article two days ago detailing yet another instance of settlement expansion where a Palestinian family of 14 were evicted from their home and all their possessions stolen by the Israeli's, and as usual you had nothing to say about it.

yosi wrote:

But...since you asked I'll oblige you. I think the settlements are a strategic mistake. I think they are a suicidal enterprise for Israel. I think that given the effect of the settlements on the Palestinians that they are immoral. I do not think that the settlers as a group are bad people, since the vast majority of them are there for economic reasons. I do think that the extreme minority of settlers who attack Palestinians and are constantly setting up new outposts are absolutely crazy and dangerous, and they are certainly immoral.

See, that wasn't so difficult now was it?

Just out of interest, how vocal are you about this to your friends and aquaintances within Israel? Is vocal opposition to the settlements and the lunatic violent element of settlers a common topic of discussion, or is it frowned upon and largely ignored or supported?