What to do about ireland

satansbedsatansbed Posts: 2,139
edited December 2010 in A Moving Train
well what are your thoughts, should we be bailed out by the eu, should we take the bailout, how can we sort out the mess of our public finances, anyone have any ideas??
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  • wellcome to hell...
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    This really is a crappy situation. Ireland, rightly so, doesn't want to take on the loans from the EU and IMF mostly because of all the intrusive policies and agreements that go with it. But on the other hand, they are in serious trouble if they do not, and not to mention the EU seems to be vulnerable enough that if one or a few members have economic troubles, it directly and largely effects the rest. Not sure what the "right" answer is, but I've always felt the IMF and WB do more harm to developing nations than good. In the end, the loans will be taken mostly because of international pressure put on Ireland and the EU to force it to occur.
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • satansbedsatansbed Posts: 2,139

    I've read that and for the most part it's drivel

    Ireland is a small country that will never have a large manufacturing industry, to give up or low corporate tax rate now would be lunacy. Foreign direct investment has actually been increasing during the recession and is our only way out, secondly given us money and then saying you can have this money, but you have to take away the only means you have of paying us back, is bad for both sides. thirdly the article is full of incorrect facts and anti irish bigotry
    Google does bring some work to Ireland – about 2,000 mostly clerical jobs to process paperwork

    this is completely wrong. http://www.google.ie/intl/en/jobs/ if you look hear there is hardly any clerical jobs. same with apple, same with facebook, same with microsoft, same with ibm same with zyanga, same with activision.
    And maybe remember Bono, for whom even 12.5% was too much as U2 shifted its financial base to an even lower tax country, Holland
    and then here she shows an Irish profit maker leaving Ireland for a lower European tax country.... the lack of a consistent argument is incredible
  • I think the article was leaning towards these companies shifting profits around to avoid even Ireland's low tax rate. The problem is with the UK and Ireland is that the governments are letting off these coroporations with billions in tax but its the tax payer who forks out for this shit. Take Vodaphone recently who were let off 6-7 billion in unpaid taxes from the wonderful Mr Osbourne but yet they can cut benefits and eductaion ect. 100 billion + tax evasion / avoidance is missed a year from the super rich and companies. There's the problem.
  • is there any way to put two Brians (Cowen the PM and Lenihan the financial minister) to slave-labour with minimum wage until everything is okay, promising some rewards if they could pull it off... don't let them get away until the jobs done! and quoting a former rugby player (on TG4 the other day) "fear makes you run faster" - does it help?
    the duo might be relieved that the Greens handed the notice so it's a good excuse to dissolve the cabinet and pass the hot potato on to some other eejit as the poor plain people of direland probably wouldn't vote for FF ...

    back in 1997 or so when the Celtic tiger was a mere cub, a friend fresh out of UL told me that it was only the borrowed money going around so it shouldn't last long. amazing how the greed kept it going for so long, too long. far too long.

    back to The Poor Mouth, eh?

    . . . from mid-west, poor old plain choc donut that's me
    Millstreet Arena '96 The Point '96 '00 '06 Shepherd's Bush Empire '09 The O2 Arena Dublin '10 Hyde Park '10
    Neil Young with Pearl Jam RDS '95 Three Fish NY & Seattle '99
  • Invade ireland!!!
    I'll be back
  • satansbedsatansbed Posts: 2,139
    MI38162 wrote:
    is there any way to put two Brians (Cowen the PM and Lenihan the financial minister) to slave-labour with minimum wage until everything is okay, promising some rewards if they could pull it off... don't let them get away until the jobs done! and quoting a former rugby player (on TG4 the other day) "fear makes you run faster" - does it help?
    the duo might be relieved that the Greens handed the notice so it's a good excuse to dissolve the cabinet and pass the hot potato on to some other eejit as the poor plain people of direland probably wouldn't vote for FF ...

    back in 1997 or so when the Celtic tiger was a mere cub, a friend fresh out of UL told me that it was only the borrowed money going around so it shouldn't last long. amazing how the greed kept it going for so long, too long. far too long.

    back to The Poor Mouth, eh?

    . . . from mid-west, poor old plain choc donut that's me

    i agree with what your saying, but the greed didn't really take over till around 2005, i read a good article on how we where actually a really good economy then but after that we let it be led by a property boom which is the reason we are where we are, il try and find it, i think it was the economist
  • i say buy a flat of guiness and watch the show, atleast you will know you supported the economy in some small way. As a way of helping, I am going to do nothing but drink guiness for beer throughout the holidays
    >>>>
    >
    ...a lover and a fighter.
    "I'm at least half a bum" Rocky Balboa

    http://www.videosift.com/video/Obamas-Message-To-American-Indians

    Edmonton, AB. September 5th, 2005
    Vancouver, BC. April 3rd, 2008
    Calgary,AB. August 8th, 2009
  • satansbedsatansbed Posts: 2,139
    i say buy a flat of guiness and watch the show, atleast you will know you supported the economy in some small way. As a way of helping, I am going to do nothing but drink guiness for beer throughout the holidays
    drink murphys instead 8-);)
  • satansbed wrote:
    i say buy a flat of guiness and watch the show, atleast you will know you supported the economy in some small way. As a way of helping, I am going to do nothing but drink guiness for beer throughout the holidays
    drink murphys instead 8-);)
    never tried that one but will do
    >>>>
    >
    ...a lover and a fighter.
    "I'm at least half a bum" Rocky Balboa

    http://www.videosift.com/video/Obamas-Message-To-American-Indians

    Edmonton, AB. September 5th, 2005
    Vancouver, BC. April 3rd, 2008
    Calgary,AB. August 8th, 2009
  • satansbed wrote:
    (...) but the greed didn't really take over till around 2005, i read a good article on how we where actually a really good economy then but after that we let it be led by a property boom which is the reason we are where we are, il try and find it, i think it was the economist

    property prices started faster in mid-1995. investors started buying, inflating property prices, plain people of ireland tried to buy before it's too late, 100%-mortgage, ...
    early in the 1990s they said when you buy a house the price should be about 3 times of your salary, with 10% for the deposit. that was still possible with average income until probably 1998? i think in 2001 some economists said the boom would end in 2002 - as the housing price was over inflated already. but the people still kept at it so the "boom" continued... kept borrowing from the future forgetting the bubble would burst someday...
    you could blame Bertie and Brian Cowen then the finance minister, but it looks like everyone wanted the boom to last forever and the only way was to keep going,... until Lehman Bros busted, or something.

    so what's up in Greece and Iceland now? sort of "business as usual" for majority of people, right?

    yeah promote Guinness! and Tayto, irish cheese, Leprechaun museum, ... export and tourism ...
    and irish rugby
    Millstreet Arena '96 The Point '96 '00 '06 Shepherd's Bush Empire '09 The O2 Arena Dublin '10 Hyde Park '10
    Neil Young with Pearl Jam RDS '95 Three Fish NY & Seattle '99
  • the irish make cheese? is it a potatoe cheese?
    >>>>
    >
    ...a lover and a fighter.
    "I'm at least half a bum" Rocky Balboa

    http://www.videosift.com/video/Obamas-Message-To-American-Indians

    Edmonton, AB. September 5th, 2005
    Vancouver, BC. April 3rd, 2008
    Calgary,AB. August 8th, 2009
  • the irish make cheese? is it a potatoe cheese?
    potato cheese? i don't think .... oh wait it could be great novelty irish products!! thanks a mil for great idea :D
    some goat milk cheese and artisan cow milk cheese are "award-winning" ... they say.
    come & try! ;)
    Millstreet Arena '96 The Point '96 '00 '06 Shepherd's Bush Empire '09 The O2 Arena Dublin '10 Hyde Park '10
    Neil Young with Pearl Jam RDS '95 Three Fish NY & Seattle '99
  • satansbedsatansbed Posts: 2,139
    MI38162 wrote:
    satansbed wrote:
    (...) but the greed didn't really take over till around 2005, i read a good article on how we where actually a really good economy then but after that we let it be led by a property boom which is the reason we are where we are, il try and find it, i think it was the economist

    property prices started faster in mid-1995. investors started buying, inflating property prices, plain people of ireland tried to buy before it's too late, 100%-mortgage, ...
    early in the 1990s they said when you buy a house the price should be about 3 times of your salary, with 10% for the deposit. that was still possible with average income until probably 1998? i think in 2001 some economists said the boom would end in 2002 - as the housing price was over inflated already. but the people still kept at it so the "boom" continued... kept borrowing from the future forgetting the bubble would burst someday...
    you could blame Bertie and Brian Cowen then the finance minister, but it looks like everyone wanted the boom to last forever and the only way was to keep going,... until Lehman Bros busted, or something.

    so what's up in Greece and Iceland now? sort of "business as usual" for majority of people, right?

    yeah promote Guinness! and Tayto, irish cheese, Leprechaun museum, ... export and tourism ...
    and irish rugby

    but the boom was managable at that stage and was left out of control afterwards
  • MI38162 wrote:
    the irish make cheese? is it a potatoe cheese?
    potato cheese? i don't think .... oh wait it could be great novelty irish products!! thanks a mil for great idea :D
    some goat milk cheese and artisan cow milk cheese are "award-winning" ... they say.
    come & try! ;)
    it sounds good to me, two of my favourite edibles unite....mmmmmmmm ya know, it probably would be a good thing and could become an irish novelty, if you take the idea and run with it and it works, please donate 2% of the proceeds to your local animaly shelter :) lol
    >>>>
    >
    ...a lover and a fighter.
    "I'm at least half a bum" Rocky Balboa

    http://www.videosift.com/video/Obamas-Message-To-American-Indians

    Edmonton, AB. September 5th, 2005
    Vancouver, BC. April 3rd, 2008
    Calgary,AB. August 8th, 2009
  • satansbed wrote:
    MI38162 wrote:
    satansbed wrote:
    (...) but the greed didn't really take over till around 2005, i read a good article on how we where actually a really good economy then but after that we let it be led by a property boom which is the reason we are where we are, il try and find it, i think it was the economist

    property prices started faster in mid-1995. investors started buying, inflating property prices, plain people of ireland tried to buy before it's too late, 100%-mortgage, ...
    early in the 1990s they said when you buy a house the price should be about 3 times of your salary, with 10% for the deposit. that was still possible with average income until probably 1998? i think in 2001 some economists said the boom would end in 2002 - as the housing price was over inflated already. but the people still kept at it so the "boom" continued... kept borrowing from the future forgetting the bubble would burst someday...

    but the boom was managable at that stage and was left out of control afterwards
    you mean 2005? agreed. but the greed took over a little earlier i think ... oh well, too late anyhow ...

    where should i go to bring in the idea of Irish Potato Cheese??? with a "2% of profit to the animal shelters" string firmly attached . . .
    Millstreet Arena '96 The Point '96 '00 '06 Shepherd's Bush Empire '09 The O2 Arena Dublin '10 Hyde Park '10
    Neil Young with Pearl Jam RDS '95 Three Fish NY & Seattle '99
  • satansbed wrote:
    well what are your thoughts, should we be bailed out by the eu, should we take the bailout, how can we sort out the mess of our public finances, anyone have any ideas??

    Fintan O'Toole does, and I'm with him all the way:

    The Irish Times - Tuesday, November 23, 2010
    The people must act or we will remain irrelevant
    FINTAN O'TOOLE

    Before an election, a civic movement has to create a critical mass around the idea of radical political reform

    HAVING AN election after agreeing a four-year deal that will shape all key decisions is like debating which brand of condom to buy after you’ve become pregnant. It is a parody of democratic choice. Popular sovereignty has almost no meaning in Ireland right now. Its restoration is the precondition for a meaningful election.

    We need a non-party technical administration to hold the fort while the people have their say on the four-year plan and on radical reform of our political system. Within that space, we need to make a collective decision on the International Monetary Fund-European Union deal.

    The primary goal of the IMF-EU package to which any new government will be committed is not to stop Ireland spiralling downwards into economic depression. It is to ensure that Irish citizens cough up yet more money for the banks.

    The process of converting bank debt into national debt is to be completed. Instead of the banks borrowing money from the European Central Bank at one per cent interest to fund their operations, the State (you and me) will borrow it for them at perhaps five per cent.

    To pay for this, the poor and the vulnerable will be further hammered.

    Welfare will be slashed, public health services will deteriorate, children, the disabled and the elderly will lose the already inadequate services that afford them some hope and dignity. But the €100 billion that is owed by the Irish to German banks and the €109 billion owed to British banks will be secured.

    The consequences are entirely predictable. Mass unemployment and mass emigration will be locked in to an economy that, beyond the multinational sector, will not grow.

    Poverty and inequality will increase sharply, with all the social and financial costs this implies.

    The viciousness that is about to be unleashed is summed up in the idea of slashing the minimum wage. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the state of the public finances.

    It is simply an opportunistic move to punish those at the bottom for a crisis whose real authors will sail blithely onwards. It is also based on another lie: that Ireland’s minimum wage is the second highest in the EU.

    It is not.

    In terms of purchasing power, it is the fifth highest in the EU. But many EU countries operate non-statutory minimum wages on a sectoral basis which are substantially higher than Ireland’s.

    This strategy is to be tied up in secret negotiations by a government that has made itself an international laughing stock and that is now officially a zombie.

    There is to be no argument and no pretence that the Irish people have any function except to bear the pain and assume the debts.

    Democracy is to be neutered – the government we elect will be there simply to deliver a done deal.

    What needs to happen?

    First, the Government must go at once and be replaced in the short term by a technical administration (led by non-political people of integrity and competence) that will enter negotiations on the basis of the Irish public interest, not of continuing Fianna Fáil’s disastrous agenda.

    Second, at least two alternative plans need to be prepared by the political parties and put to the people in a referendum, restoring the idea of popular sovereignty.

    Third, before an election, a civic movement has to create a critical mass around the idea of radical political reform.

    How can these basic needs be forced on to the agenda?

    First, the people of Donegal South West have to refuse to vote for Fianna Fáil – at all. They can deliver a clear message that this Government has no mandate to conclude any deal.

    Second, hundreds of thousands of people have to get out on the streets for the Irish Congress of Trade Unions demonstration on Saturday. Forget what you think about the unions – this is the one chance citizens have to demand a choice. Whether you agree with Ictu’s alternative plan or not, the idea that there should be a coherent alternative is crucial to the survival of our democracy. Without it, an election will be an empty ritual.

    Third, in response to public requests, I intend to put up on my website (fintanotoole.ie) by the end of the week a list of 10 basic demands for changing our political culture and system.

    If people agree, they will be able to put their names to the demands, which include a €100,000 salary cap for public officials, a change in the electoral system, a shrinking and overhaul of the Dáil, and measures to kill the toxic three Cs: clientelism, cronyism and corruption.

    What matters most is that we cease to be an invisible people. That our government is irrelevant is their fault.

    That the people are irrelevant is ours.

    Sovereignty belongs, not to the State, or the government, but to the people. We have outsourced it for too long to an incompetent, amoral and self-serving elite. Now we face the starkest of choices: use it or lose it.



    Fintan O’Toole’s website is fintanotoole.ie.

    He will discuss his book Enough is Enough at Triskel Arts in Cork on Wednesday evening and the Town Hall Theatre in Galway on December 1st
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • FiveB247xFiveB247x Posts: 2,330
    Here's a good, short listen about the economic crisis in Ireland.

    http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/11/23/131547987/the-tuesday-podcast-too-big-to-save
    CONservative governMENt

    Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
  • when i tried to switch from TV3 news to RTE ONE six-one news shortly after 6pm, on RTE TWO Homer was trying to save his financial situation by declaring bankruptcy. (The Simpsons)

    on serious note. yeah, Fintan O'Toole is clever, idealistic ... democracy? sounds good doesn't it. but who can trust the judgment of the plain people of direland? they played the part on the property boom (fooled into spending beyond their means, guilty!), loved Bertie when the boom seemed good going, ... only after it busted, boo FF. natural reaction, i suppose. majority of people are simplistic and opportunistic. yeah, i'm one.

    hope it will be good turnout on saturday, without violence. oh please no violence.
    Millstreet Arena '96 The Point '96 '00 '06 Shepherd's Bush Empire '09 The O2 Arena Dublin '10 Hyde Park '10
    Neil Young with Pearl Jam RDS '95 Three Fish NY & Seattle '99
  • email from a friend ...
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/how-the-stimulus-package-really-works-2406920.html

    How the stimulus package really works . . . . Thursday November 04 2010

    IT IS a slow day in a dusty little Irish town. The rain is beating down and the streets are deserted.

    Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit.

    On this particular day a rich tourist is driving through the town, stops at the local hotel and lays a €100 note on the desk, telling the hotel owner he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night.

    The owner gives him some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked upstairs, the hotelier grabs the €100 note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher.

    The butcher takes the €100 note and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer.

    The pig farmer takes the €100 note and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel.

    The guy at the Farmers' Co-op takes the €100 note and runs to pay his drinks bill at the pub.

    The publican slips the money along to the local prostitute drinking at the bar, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer him "services" on credit.

    The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to the hotel owner with the €100 note. The hotel proprietor then places the €100 note back on the counter so the rich traveller will not suspect anything.

    At that moment the traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the €100 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money, and leaves town.

    No one produced anything. No one earned anything. However, the whole town is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism.

    And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how the stimulus package works.

    Anthony woods
    Ennis, co clare
    Millstreet Arena '96 The Point '96 '00 '06 Shepherd's Bush Empire '09 The O2 Arena Dublin '10 Hyde Park '10
    Neil Young with Pearl Jam RDS '95 Three Fish NY & Seattle '99
  • satansbedsatansbed Posts: 2,139
    ANALYSIS: The Taoiseach delivered an assured performance as he defended the tough medicine in the plan – the pity is that he didn’t do it consistently since he took office

    THE PUBLICATION of the National Recovery Plan has coincided with a dawning of political reality across the political spectrum. Whatever manoeuvring takes place over the next two weeks, the budget, however unpalatable it is, will be passed by the Dáil on December 7th because the country has no other option.

    Taoiseach Brian Cowen and Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan laid out the position in stark terms at the launch of the plan yesterday.

    The State will simply run out of money unless measures are implemented that will deliver savings of the order of €15 billion over the next four years, with a substantial chunk of that frontloaded to 2011.

    TDs on all sides may huff and puff from now until December 7th, but MEPs of the three main parties were bluntly told the facts of life by economic and monetary affairs commissioner Olli Rehn in Strasbourg on Monday night. Savings of €6 billion simply have to be made next year if Ireland is to get the EU-IMF bailout it needs to survive.

    Rehn issued a more diplomatic statement yesterday in response to the plan but the message was the same. The targets in the four-year plan will have to be met. A new government will not necessarily be tied to all of the exact detail contained in the plan for the years after 2011, but it will have to come up with detailed alternative measures that bring about the same level of savings.

    The Taoiseach tried to bring the debate forward at his press conference yesterday by insisting that there was no point in an endless debate about who is to blame for the crisis, given that voters will soon have their chance to speak on the issue.

    The task facing everyone in politics now is to focus on how to get out of the mess the country is in.

    Cowen delivered an assured performance as he defended the tough medicine outlined in the plan. The pity is that he didn’t do it consistently since he took office. It’s also a pity a detailed plan, along the lines of the one announced yesterday, was not published a year ago in response to the McCarthy report and the document from the Commission on Taxation.

    The four-year plan will affect everybody in society but the impact will not be the same across all groups.

    The unemployed and low- and middle-income earners will probably be affected most in terms of a significant reduction in their standard of living. One group will be hit through cuts in welfare payments, while the other will have to endure extra taxation.

    People on State pensions will get off almost scot-free; while public service pensioners will be asked to make a contribution, it will be relatively small.

    Existing public service workers are protected from further pay cuts, for the present at least, but new entrants to the public service will be paid 10 per cent less than those already in the door.

    Cowen in his press conference speech spoke of inter-generational solidarity but the net effect of the plan will be harder on the young than the middle aged or old.

    A reduction in the pool of public service jobs rather than a reduction in pay levels will make an already difficult jobs market even worse. The cut in the minimum wage will also impact disproportionately on the young, as will the moves to bring more people into the tax net and welfare cuts.

    The overall intention is to create more low-paid jobs that will be more attractive than welfare payments.

    Still, whatever the unevenness of the burden as spread between the generations, the plan appears tough enough to do the job required while not so tough that it will impose an intolerable burden on society.

    As the Taoiseach emphasised, there is simply no way of avoiding a general reduction in living standards.

    Taxation has to be brought up from 2003 levels to 2006 levels, while spending has to be reduced back to 2007 levels. It’s as simple as that.

    Even if that happens there is no guarantee the plan will work unless there is some growth in the economy.

    Ultimately the only way sustainable growth can come about is if public spending and taxation are brought into line. If the plan achieves that difficult task, the hope is that even higher growth than anticipated will materialise.

    What lifted the Irish economy out of the recession in the late 1980s was the combination of prudent budgetary policy and growth after 1987. Much of the growth then was driven by a booming international economy, so Ireland is dependent on a return of calm to the euro zone and a steady level of economic growth.

    A bit of luck would also be a welcome change after the past few years of unremitting bad news.

    In terms of pure party politics, the plan has given the Government parties their platform for the forthcoming election.

    Brian Lenihan went into campaigning mode at the end of yesterday’s press conference by saying the plan set out the only realistic policy options and any attempt to avoid them would demonstrate a lack of seriousness.

    Fine Gael and Labour did a bit of political campaigning themselves in response to the plan. Enda Kenny said his party had already established from the European Commission that it would not be bound by the details of the plan for the years after 2011 but he didn’t spell out how Fine Gael was going to find the required savings for those three years.

    Labour Party finance spokeswoman Joan Burton made the perfectly fair point that the plan presented the Irish people with the bill for 13 years of Fianna Fáil government. The problem is that the bill cannot be avoided by the electorate that put that Government into office three times in a row.

    Burton again repeated the Labour position that the €6 billion adjustment in 2011 posed an unacceptable risk to growth in the Irish economy. However, given the fact that this figure has been agreed by the commission and the IMF, it is difficult to see how it can be avoided. Potential differences between Fine Gael and Labour will be glossed over by the passing of the budget as both parties will have no option but to sign up for the €6 billion figure if they take power after an election in February or March.

    How they will behave after that is the real question because they will not be able to avoid very difficult choices over the coming years.

    It is all very fine to talk about renegotiating some of the details in the plan but any alternative measures will be just as unpalatable for some segment of the electorate as the existing one.

    There are no easy options left, even if the Opposition parties naturally do their best to convey the impression that there is a better way.
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    the irish gov't is following so many other countries regarding its loan from the wb.



    debt repayment comes first, its part of the agreement they signed.



    the irish people have every right to protest, they are getting effed in the a.
  • 93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • Fintan O'Toole's speech to the 50,000 - 100,000 (depending on who you believe) gathered in the snow at the GPO on O'Connell Street on Saturday:

    "On one side of this street, in 1913, James Larkin was arrested as he addressed the workers of Dublin who had stood up to claim their dignity as citizens rather than serfs. On the other side, in 1916, Ireland was declared to be a republic under the control of its own citizens.

    Today, we gather here to reclaim that sense of citizenship. As the fate of our country is being decided, it is a case of mind over matter. They don’t mind, and we don’t matter. Our rulers have no shame, and they believe we have no voice.

    They tell us we have no choice, that there is no alternative. A government with no mandate will do a deal with people we have never elected. On the one side, we will borrow yet more billions to bail out the banks. On the other, there will be war on the poor and the vulnerable: a savage assault on the minimum wage, cuts in welfare payments and attacks on basic services for the old and the young, the sick and the disabled. And this will happen while the elite that caused this catastrophe protects its own interests. Under the government’s plan, a single person earning €40,000 will pay exactly the same amount of extra tax as someone earning €300,000. This is not a plan to save Ireland, it is a plan to save the Irish elite.

    If we really have no choice in all of this, let’s stop pretending that we are a democracy. Let us, as part of the austerity programme, cut two whole years – 2013 and 2016 – because otherwise we will mark those centenaries amid a mockery of their ideals, as a powerless people in a country of mass unemployment, mass emigration and growing poverty and inequality.

    But we do have a choice. We can emerge from this crisis with a renewed sense of solidarity and justice and with a vigorous democracy in which power has returned to the people. We are here today to say that we are not economic units whose only function is to behave ourselves and pay off the gambling debts of our masters. We are not children who must take our medicine or be sent to bed without our supper. We are not subjects, we are citizens. And we want our republic back."

    www.fintanotoole.com
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • JordyWordyJordyWordy Posts: 2,261
    watching this whole shiteheap slowly unfold....and get worse & worse over the past 3 years....it's been the most excrutiating experience.

    one part of me initially thought that the IMF deal could be good for us, because it might involve a "audit" of our public spending, eg: there could be specific terms in the deal that forced us to sort the Public sector wage bill etc (eg Portlaois Hospital - 128 beds, 127 staff on "manager" salaries)....but alas, no joy. Just more Black Hole Banks being nationalised, more private debt being absorbed into the sovereign debt, and a government who dont seem to give a single fuck about their country, their reputations, their legacy, or the 90% of the population they are financially crippling.

    Basically, the video with the robots has it 100% right.

    We are completely fucked, and the reason we had not yet revolted, tried to throw FF out by force, is the same reason FF won the election in 2008 - realistically the opposition parties are full of similarly callow, hapless, inept politicians of a similar breed. (there are some HUGE exceptions to this, men of character out there, eg Michael Noonan, Richard Bruton, Caoimhin O Caolain, John Bruton etc).

    The feeling that I get around my part of Dublin is that deep down, we dont feel that Fine Gael, Labour, or anyone else is equipped to deal with a fuck up of this magnitude....we need to get our groove back
  • Wow. Brian Cowen - now more than twice as unpopular as George Bush at his worst.
    Yet still claims the authority to write the economic plan for the next four years.
    This country is a joke.

    Fianna Fáil slip to fourth in opinion poll
    Fianna Fáil suffered a bruising tonight after an opinion poll put support at just 13%. The party is now in fourth place behind Sinn Fein at 16%, according to a Red C survey for the Irish Sun. Support for Fine Gael has fallen by 1% to 32% on a similar Red C poll carried out on November 21. Labour’s popularity has dropped from 27% on the previous poll to 24%. Support for the Greens remains unchanged at 3%.

    The survey of 1,000 adults was carried out on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday this week, days after Sinn Fein’s by-election win in Donegal South West and in the wake of the €85bn bailout plan.

    Red C also asked the participants who they would like to see as the next Taoiseach, with only 8% backing Brian Cowen. Eamon Gilmore stands at 41% and Enda Kenny at 25% to be the next leader of the country.
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • Labour proposes €4.5 billion in cuts

    Labour has proposed cutting spending by €4.5 billion in its pre-Budget plans published today.

    Capping public sector and political salaries at €190,000, creating a third tax rate of 48 per cent for top earners and increasing the tax on savings form part of the plan.

    The party is proposing to create a €500 million jobs fund which, when set against economies of €5 billion, would result in overall spending cuts of €4.5 billion.

    Party leader Eamon Gilmore said the proposals were a balanced approach that would tackle the national deficit while providing room for jobs and growth.

    He attacked the Government’s plan to reduce spending by €6 billion in the Budget as “dangerous for Ireland” and an unacceptable risk to jobs and growth.

    “The level of frontloading of cuts and tax hikes planned for the Budget is simply too much to swallow in one year. We cannot cut our way out of this crisis, we must also have growth,” he said.

    The €6 billion sum was a “figure of convenience” and a product of a right-wing consensus in Ireland and Europe, he said.

    Mr Gilmore described the deal with the IMF as a “sell-out” and said Labour, if returned to Government next year, would renegotiate it as soon as possible.

    The party is proposing savings of about €5 million through political reforms, including the €190,000 salary cap on the Taoiseach’s salary and a commensurate further reduction of 17 per cent applying to ministers and ministers of state.

    Ministerial cars would be pooled, and Garda drivers replaced by civilians unless security considerations apply.

    The party says it would increase the annual tax on second home from €200 to €500, increase Dirt tax on savings to 30 per cent and cut personal tax credit by €250. Property-related tax reliefs would be abolished, yielding savings of €360 million a year.

    The capital budget would be cut by €1.2 billion, but Mr Gilmore claimed this did not mean Metro North would not go ahead.

    The public sector pay bill would be cut by €400 million, and €215 million would be saved by tackling welfare fraud and curbing spending on rent supplements.

    Labour also says it can achieve almost €1 billion in non-pay savings next year while maintaining investment in education and front-line health services.

    Resources would be prioritised for job creation and the public sector pay bill would be reduced by at least €1.4 billion over three years.
    93: Slane
    96: Cork, Dublin
    00: Dublin
    06: London, Dublin
    07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
    09: Manchester, London
    10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
    11: San José
    12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
  • Are people waiting til the budget to get really angry? It's a shame there was snow for the protest as I'm sure the turnout would have been even much bigger.

    For what it's worth, I only buy the Irish version of everything I'm buying (if there is one)
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
  • satansbed wrote:
    but the boom was managable at that stage and was left out of control afterwards
    I don't have a house... the amount of snobbery I've heard from people going 'why don't you buy a house?', 'cos I can't afford it', 'but you should get a mortgage anyway' :? There was a lot of pressure on people and it was pretty disgusting. When I was maybe 25, I had single friends on 30,000 a year, buying one bed apartments for 400,000 and asking me why I wasn't doing the same :shock: . Seriously, it got beyond ridiculous. I know people who were struggling to resell their boats and their jeeps and stuff!

    Now you've got Germany lending us money to pay themselves back and charge more interest in the process. Who said they lost the war, eh? Greece - tick, Ireland - tick, how many more countries to go?
    The Astoria??? Orgazmic!
    Verona??? it's all surmountable
    Dublin 23.08.06 "The beauty of Ireland, right there!"
    Wembley? We all believe!
    Copenhagen?? your light made us stars
    Chicago 07? And love
    What a different life
    Had I not found this love with you
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