What to do about ireland

satansbed

well what are your thoughts, should we be bailed out by the eu, should we take the bailout, how can we sort out the mess of our public finances, anyone have any ideas??

dimitrispearljam

wellcome to hell...

Digital Twilight

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... or-ireland

FiveB247x

This really is a crappy situation. Ireland, rightly so, doesn't want to take on the loans from the EU and IMF mostly because of all the intrusive policies and agreements that go with it. But on the other hand, they are in serious trouble if they do not, and not to mention the EU seems to be vulnerable enough that if one or a few members have economic troubles, it directly and largely effects the rest. Not sure what the "right" answer is, but I've always felt the IMF and WB do more harm to developing nations than good. In the end, the loans will be taken mostly because of international pressure put on Ireland and the EU to force it to occur.

satansbed

Digital Twilight wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/22/no-bailout-for-ireland

I've read that and for the most part it's drivel

Ireland is a small country that will never have a large manufacturing industry, to give up or low corporate tax rate now would be lunacy. Foreign direct investment has actually been increasing during the recession and is our only way out, secondly given us money and then saying you can have this money, but you have to take away the only means you have of paying us back, is bad for both sides. thirdly the article is full of incorrect facts and anti irish bigotry

Google does bring some work to Ireland – about 2,000 mostly clerical jobs to process paperwork

this is completely wrong. http://www.google.ie/intl/en/jobs/ if you look hear there is hardly any clerical jobs. same with apple, same with facebook, same with microsoft, same with ibm same with zyanga, same with activision.

And maybe remember Bono, for whom even 12.5% was too much as U2 shifted its financial base to an even lower tax country, Holland

and then here she shows an Irish profit maker leaving Ireland for a lower European tax country.... the lack of a consistent argument is incredible

Digital Twilight

I think the article was leaning towards these companies shifting profits around to avoid even Ireland's low tax rate. The problem is with the UK and Ireland is that the governments are letting off these coroporations with billions in tax but its the tax payer who forks out for this shit. Take Vodaphone recently who were let off 6-7 billion in unpaid taxes from the wonderful Mr Osbourne but yet they can cut benefits and eductaion ect. 100 billion + tax evasion / avoidance is missed a year from the super rich and companies. There's the problem.

MI38162

is there any way to put two Brians (Cowen the PM and Lenihan the financial minister) to slave-labour with minimum wage until everything is okay, promising some rewards if they could pull it off... don't let them get away until the jobs done! and quoting a former rugby player (on TG4 the other day) "fear makes you run faster" - does it help?
the duo might be relieved that the Greens handed the notice so it's a good excuse to dissolve the cabinet and pass the hot potato on to some other eejit as the poor plain people of direland probably wouldn't vote for FF ...

back in 1997 or so when the Celtic tiger was a mere cub, a friend fresh out of UL told me that it was only the borrowed money going around so it shouldn't last long. amazing how the greed kept it going for so long, too long. far too long.

back to The Poor Mouth, eh?

. . . from mid-west, poor old plain choc donut that's me

Nothingman54

Invade ireland!!!

satansbed

MI38162 wrote:

is there any way to put two Brians (Cowen the PM and Lenihan the financial minister) to slave-labour with minimum wage until everything is okay, promising some rewards if they could pull it off... don't let them get away until the jobs done! and quoting a former rugby player (on TG4 the other day) "fear makes you run faster" - does it help?
the duo might be relieved that the Greens handed the notice so it's a good excuse to dissolve the cabinet and pass the hot potato on to some other eejit as the poor plain people of direland probably wouldn't vote for FF ...

back in 1997 or so when the Celtic tiger was a mere cub, a friend fresh out of UL told me that it was only the borrowed money going around so it shouldn't last long. amazing how the greed kept it going for so long, too long. far too long.

back to The Poor Mouth, eh?

. . . from mid-west, poor old plain choc donut that's me

i agree with what your saying, but the greed didn't really take over till around 2005, i read a good article on how we where actually a really good economy then but after that we let it be led by a property boom which is the reason we are where we are, il try and find it, i think it was the economist

Cree Nations

i say buy a flat of guiness and watch the show, atleast you will know you supported the economy in some small way. As a way of helping, I am going to do nothing but drink guiness for beer throughout the holidays

satansbed

Cree Nations wrote:

i say buy a flat of guiness and watch the show, atleast you will know you supported the economy in some small way. As a way of helping, I am going to do nothing but drink guiness for beer throughout the holidays

drink murphys instead

Cree Nations

satansbed wrote:

Cree Nations wrote:

i say buy a flat of guiness and watch the show, atleast you will know you supported the economy in some small way. As a way of helping, I am going to do nothing but drink guiness for beer throughout the holidays

drink murphys instead

never tried that one but will do

MI38162

satansbed wrote:

(...) but the greed didn't really take over till around 2005, i read a good article on how we where actually a really good economy then but after that we let it be led by a property boom which is the reason we are where we are, il try and find it, i think it was the economist

property prices started faster in mid-1995. investors started buying, inflating property prices, plain people of ireland tried to buy before it's too late, 100%-mortgage, ...
early in the 1990s they said when you buy a house the price should be about 3 times of your salary, with 10% for the deposit. that was still possible with average income until probably 1998? i think in 2001 some economists said the boom would end in 2002 - as the housing price was over inflated already. but the people still kept at it so the "boom" continued... kept borrowing from the future forgetting the bubble would burst someday...
you could blame Bertie and Brian Cowen then the finance minister, but it looks like everyone wanted the boom to last forever and the only way was to keep going,... until Lehman Bros busted, or something.

so what's up in Greece and Iceland now? sort of "business as usual" for majority of people, right?

yeah promote Guinness! and Tayto, irish cheese, Leprechaun museum, ... export and tourism ...
and irish rugby

Cree Nations

the irish make cheese? is it a potatoe cheese?

MI38162

Cree Nations wrote:

the irish make cheese? is it a potatoe cheese?

potato cheese? i don't think .... oh wait it could be great novelty irish products!! thanks a mil for great idea
some goat milk cheese and artisan cow milk cheese are "award-winning" ... they say.
come & try!

satansbed

MI38162 wrote:

satansbed wrote:

(...) but the greed didn't really take over till around 2005, i read a good article on how we where actually a really good economy then but after that we let it be led by a property boom which is the reason we are where we are, il try and find it, i think it was the economist

property prices started faster in mid-1995. investors started buying, inflating property prices, plain people of ireland tried to buy before it's too late, 100%-mortgage, ...
early in the 1990s they said when you buy a house the price should be about 3 times of your salary, with 10% for the deposit. that was still possible with average income until probably 1998? i think in 2001 some economists said the boom would end in 2002 - as the housing price was over inflated already. but the people still kept at it so the "boom" continued... kept borrowing from the future forgetting the bubble would burst someday...
you could blame Bertie and Brian Cowen then the finance minister, but it looks like everyone wanted the boom to last forever and the only way was to keep going,... until Lehman Bros busted, or something.

so what's up in Greece and Iceland now? sort of "business as usual" for majority of people, right?

yeah promote Guinness! and Tayto, irish cheese, Leprechaun museum, ... export and tourism ...
and irish rugby

but the boom was managable at that stage and was left out of control afterwards

Cree Nations

MI38162 wrote:

Cree Nations wrote:

the irish make cheese? is it a potatoe cheese?

potato cheese? i don't think .... oh wait it could be great novelty irish products!! thanks a mil for great idea
some goat milk cheese and artisan cow milk cheese are "award-winning" ... they say.
come & try!

it sounds good to me, two of my favourite edibles unite....mmmmmmmm ya know, it probably would be a good thing and could become an irish novelty, if you take the idea and run with it and it works, please donate 2% of the proceeds to your local animaly shelter lol

MI38162

satansbed wrote:

MI38162 wrote:

satansbed wrote:

(...) but the greed didn't really take over till around 2005, i read a good article on how we where actually a really good economy then but after that we let it be led by a property boom which is the reason we are where we are, il try and find it, i think it was the economist

property prices started faster in mid-1995. investors started buying, inflating property prices, plain people of ireland tried to buy before it's too late, 100%-mortgage, ...
early in the 1990s they said when you buy a house the price should be about 3 times of your salary, with 10% for the deposit. that was still possible with average income until probably 1998? i think in 2001 some economists said the boom would end in 2002 - as the housing price was over inflated already. but the people still kept at it so the "boom" continued... kept borrowing from the future forgetting the bubble would burst someday...

but the boom was managable at that stage and was left out of control afterwards

you mean 2005? agreed. but the greed took over a little earlier i think ... oh well, too late anyhow ...

where should i go to bring in the idea of Irish Potato Cheese??? with a "2% of profit to the animal shelters" string firmly attached . . .

wolfamongwolves

satansbed wrote:

well what are your thoughts, should we be bailed out by the eu, should we take the bailout, how can we sort out the mess of our public finances, anyone have any ideas??

Fintan O'Toole does, and I'm with him all the way:

The Irish Times - Tuesday, November 23, 2010
The people must act or we will remain irrelevant
FINTAN O'TOOLE

Before an election, a civic movement has to create a critical mass around the idea of radical political reform
HAVING AN election after agreeing a four-year deal that will shape all key decisions is like debating which brand of condom to buy after you’ve become pregnant. It is a parody of democratic choice. Popular sovereignty has almost no meaning in Ireland right now. Its restoration is the precondition for a meaningful election.

We need a non-party technical administration to hold the fort while the people have their say on the four-year plan and on radical reform of our political system. Within that space, we need to make a collective decision on the International Monetary Fund-European Union deal.

The primary goal of the IMF-EU package to which any new government will be committed is not to stop Ireland spiralling downwards into economic depression. It is to ensure that Irish citizens cough up yet more money for the banks.

The process of converting bank debt into national debt is to be completed. Instead of the banks borrowing money from the European Central Bank at one per cent interest to fund their operations, the State (you and me) will borrow it for them at perhaps five per cent.

To pay for this, the poor and the vulnerable will be further hammered.

Welfare will be slashed, public health services will deteriorate, children, the disabled and the elderly will lose the already inadequate services that afford them some hope and dignity. But the €100 billion that is owed by the Irish to German banks and the €109 billion owed to British banks will be secured.

The consequences are entirely predictable. Mass unemployment and mass emigration will be locked in to an economy that, beyond the multinational sector, will not grow.

Poverty and inequality will increase sharply, with all the social and financial costs this implies.

The viciousness that is about to be unleashed is summed up in the idea of slashing the minimum wage. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the state of the public finances.

It is simply an opportunistic move to punish those at the bottom for a crisis whose real authors will sail blithely onwards. It is also based on another lie: that Ireland’s minimum wage is the second highest in the EU.

It is not.

In terms of purchasing power, it is the fifth highest in the EU. But many EU countries operate non-statutory minimum wages on a sectoral basis which are substantially higher than Ireland’s.

This strategy is to be tied up in secret negotiations by a government that has made itself an international laughing stock and that is now officially a zombie.

There is to be no argument and no pretence that the Irish people have any function except to bear the pain and assume the debts.

Democracy is to be neutered – the government we elect will be there simply to deliver a done deal.

What needs to happen?

First, the Government must go at once and be replaced in the short term by a technical administration (led by non-political people of integrity and competence) that will enter negotiations on the basis of the Irish public interest, not of continuing Fianna Fáil’s disastrous agenda.

Second, at least two alternative plans need to be prepared by the political parties and put to the people in a referendum, restoring the idea of popular sovereignty.

Third, before an election, a civic movement has to create a critical mass around the idea of radical political reform.

How can these basic needs be forced on to the agenda?

First, the people of Donegal South West have to refuse to vote for Fianna Fáil – at all. They can deliver a clear message that this Government has no mandate to conclude any deal.

Second, hundreds of thousands of people have to get out on the streets for the Irish Congress of Trade Unions demonstration on Saturday. Forget what you think about the unions – this is the one chance citizens have to demand a choice. Whether you agree with Ictu’s alternative plan or not, the idea that there should be a coherent alternative is crucial to the survival of our democracy. Without it, an election will be an empty ritual.

Third, in response to public requests, I intend to put up on my website (fintanotoole.ie) by the end of the week a list of 10 basic demands for changing our political culture and system.

If people agree, they will be able to put their names to the demands, which include a €100,000 salary cap for public officials, a change in the electoral system, a shrinking and overhaul of the Dáil, and measures to kill the toxic three Cs: clientelism, cronyism and corruption.

What matters most is that we cease to be an invisible people. That our government is irrelevant is their fault.

That the people are irrelevant is ours.

Sovereignty belongs, not to the State, or the government, but to the people. We have outsourced it for too long to an incompetent, amoral and self-serving elite. Now we face the starkest of choices: use it or lose it.

---

Fintan O’Toole’s website is fintanotoole.ie.

He will discuss his book Enough is Enough at Triskel Arts in Cork on Wednesday evening and the Town Hall Theatre in Galway on December 1st

FiveB247x

Here's a good, short listen about the economic crisis in Ireland.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2010/11/23/131547987/the-tuesday-podcast-too-big-to-save

MI38162

when i tried to switch from TV3 news to RTE ONE six-one news shortly after 6pm, on RTE TWO Homer was trying to save his financial situation by declaring bankruptcy. (The Simpsons)

on serious note. yeah, Fintan O'Toole is clever, idealistic ... democracy? sounds good doesn't it. but who can trust the judgment of the plain people of direland? they played the part on the property boom (fooled into spending beyond their means, guilty!), loved Bertie when the boom seemed good going, ... only after it busted, boo FF. natural reaction, i suppose. majority of people are simplistic and opportunistic. yeah, i'm one.

hope it will be good turnout on saturday, without violence. oh please no violence.