Doesn't it make more sense to tax people on what they buy they to tax them on making money? This way you still get a disproportionate amount of money from the wealthy because they certainly buy a lot of stuff.
how about we tax stock market transactions?
goods sold to save lives or make life better, health care supplies, they are already taxed. things like food and shelter, things people need to survive. but this, what, trillion dollar industry of trading companies is left entirely alone.
another glaring example of who the government really serves.
But why do people want to extend the Tax for those who make over 250K a year... less then 3% of the population
What I don't understand is why anyone wants to give more money to a government that has proven incapable of competently managing it.
If they do not extend the tax cuts for the wealthiest (which is discrimination, in my opinion) than shouldn't they lower taxes by the same amount somewhere else to offset the increase in revenue for our greedy government?
The last thing the government needs is more money and therefore more power over our lives and less freedom for all of us.
who would manage it better
buinsess? ummmm no, not when profit is the bottom dollar
you taxes have nothing to do with lessening freedom. but your taxes do pay for everything from Libraries to police/fire to mental health services
it's funny to me how "the government" is a this boogeyman that's "stealing" our money and "they can't do anything right"...but "we are the greatest country in the world"....
I don't get the hate aimed at "the government"...for me, I think is just people blaming something for their problems...now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "the government" is perfect, I just find the hate misplaced...
buinsess? ummmm no, not when profit is the bottom dollar
you taxes have nothing to do with lessening freedom. but your taxes do pay for everything from Libraries to police/fire to mental health services
privatization is not the answer
I absolutely believe that business would manage money much, much better than the government.
One of the concepts that I base this on is that business doesn't have the POWER to just force people to give them more money to cover up their incompetence. They either do it right or they go out of business.
Our government has a great big safety net and no worries about being efficient.
It's laughable that anyone would think that the government can do ANYTHING more efficiently than the private sector.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
One of the concepts that I base this on is that business doesn't have the POWER to just force people to give them more money to cover up their incompetence. They either do it right or they go out of business.
Our government has a great big safety net and no worries about being efficient.
It's laughable that anyone would think that the government can do ANYTHING more efficiently than the private sector.
I think you'll have trouble running this past any serious economist. Private businesses can easily gain POWER to do what they please as in a monopoly that is not in the public's interest. Even Adam Smith recognized this. The remedy for these private monopolies is government intervention to ensure competition and fair play.
The assumption that just because something is private it automatically means they do it better and more efficent is what's laughable. They CAN, yes. But it depends a lot on what we're specifically talking about, the nature of the good/service in question, the scale of operations and so on.
Peace
Dan
"YOU [humans] NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?" - Death
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
buinsess? ummmm no, not when profit is the bottom dollar
you taxes have nothing to do with lessening freedom. but your taxes do pay for everything from Libraries to police/fire to mental health services
privatization is not the answer
I absolutely believe that business would manage money much, much better than the government.
One of the concepts that I base this on is that business doesn't have the POWER to just force people to give them more money to cover up their incompetence. They either do it right or they go out of business.
Our government has a great big safety net and no worries about being efficient.
It's laughable that anyone would think that the government can do ANYTHING more efficiently than the private sector.
business go out of business all the time...every day...in fact, in sure a business is shuttering the windows and locking the doors right now...
I find it laughable that you don't understand that...
buinsess? ummmm no, not when profit is the bottom dollar
you taxes have nothing to do with lessening freedom. but your taxes do pay for everything from Libraries to police/fire to mental health services
privatization is not the answer
I absolutely believe that business would manage money much, much better than the government.
One of the concepts that I base this on is that business doesn't have the POWER to just force people to give them more money to cover up their incompetence. They either do it right or they go out of business.
Our government has a great big safety net and no worries about being efficient.
It's laughable that anyone would think that the government can do ANYTHING more efficiently than the private sector.
business go out of business all the time...every day...in fact, in sure a business is shuttering the windows and locking the doors right now...
I find it laughable that you don't understand that...
The fact that businesses go under everyday is actually a good thing, as it is purely natural. Supporting failure only leads to greater failure when it is executed by force. Not everyone who attempts to do business is going to be a true success in terms of their goals, but everyone who attempts it leaves something behind for everyone else to learn from. Those who are not delivering goods and services on par with or better than their competition have to change course and strategy to do so, or else they are better off liquidating and being absorbed by other businesses. They could be bought by businesses already well established, or other ones on the up and up. The fact of the matter is, government's best role in this process is to make sure that contracts are enforced between private parties. They are the mediator, the unbiased third party bound to a code that prohibits them from playing favorites. And that is the ultimate beef that Free Market people have with government. They play favorites. They play favorites with everything from energy to education, while their role is supposed to be much more limited by making sure that voluntary exchanges are being performed exactly as they are spelled out, and to bar theft, fraud, and extortion.
Yes, businesses are motivated by profit. The profit motive is capable of yielding both the best and worst results simultaneously. Innovation as well as complete-control monopoly are both born from profit. Can we agree that profit is a concept that is never likely to die?-- it's here to stay so long as man has any form of ego, like all of us, it has its good and its bad points and is not perfect.
People are ultimately choose what is best for them given their options. We know that monopolies yield no options. However, complete-control monopoly DOES NOT EXIST in an Austrian Free Market System. Monopolies are derived from government, from elimination of choice via regulations and laws that make the playing field anything but level, as well as grants, subsidies, and no-bid contracts from government. It's blatantly obvious that nearly head of every government agency is a former CEO of a big business who had been previously given advantages by government to obtain their position of power. This in turn keeps the benefits flowing from whatever Agency to whatever business. Unfair. No matter how bad a certain business wants to take over a market, or even the whole world, it is totally impossible without the force of the government to back it.
Governments create more trusts than they bust. I can liken it to the military industrial complex in how that corporate merger has made us less safe than more safe. Are companies like KBR, Halliburton, and Blackwater wrong for their motives? Definitely. But who cuts them the check? GOVERNMENT.
goods sold to save lives or make life better, health care supplies, they are already taxed. things like food and shelter, things people need to survive. but this, what, trillion dollar industry of trading companies is left entirely alone.
another glaring example of who the government really serves.
Hmmm...not liking the idea of taxing people's $ when they are trying to save for retirement...but day-trading, etc...interesting idea.
business go out of business all the time...every day...in fact, in sure a business is shuttering the windows and locking the doors right now...
I find it laughable that you don't understand that...
They sure do. You know why? because if they don't do a good job and run efficiently, they can't just go get more $ to pay for their mistakes and keep things going. Gov't does that, and does that for some businesses as well.
it's funny to me how "the government" is a this boogeyman that's "stealing" our money and "they can't do anything right"...but "we are the greatest country in the world"....
I don't get the hate aimed at "the government"...for me, I think is just people blaming something for their problems...now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "the government" is perfect, I just find the hate misplaced...
It's not hate of the government...it's hate of the fact that if they spend too much they just take more money. No one else can do that, and neither should the government.
buinsess? ummmm no, not when profit is the bottom dollar
you taxes have nothing to do with lessening freedom. but your taxes do pay for everything from Libraries to police/fire to mental health services
privatization is not the answer
I absolutely believe that business would manage money much, much better than the government.
One of the concepts that I base this on is that business doesn't have the POWER to just force people to give them more money to cover up their incompetence. They either do it right or they go out of business.
Our government has a great big safety net and no worries about being efficient.
It's laughable that anyone would think that the government can do ANYTHING more efficiently than the private sector.
business go out of business all the time...every day...in fact, in sure a business is shuttering the windows and locking the doors right now...
I find it laughable that you don't understand that...
Look at the auto companies. Most of them should have failed in the 70s and guess who got bailed out again? Not letting them go through legal bankruptcy when they should have failed initially ended up costing all of us more 30 years later.
What's worse is, look at the government-granted advantage that the American automakers have-- All of our municipal vehicles from state on through federal have to be either a Ford, Chevy, or GM, AND THEY STILL FOUND A WAY TO FAIL, TWICE!!! No Toyotas, Hondas, Mercedes, etc... allowed, paid through tax dollars, and they had to come begging us for billions on top of the billions they've already been HANDED.
Much of the distrust of business is completly warranted, but in the end it is always the government that holds the power to tip the scales in their favor, and it is THEY who cave in to it all too often, and stick the rest of us with the bill.
it's funny to me how "the government" is a this boogeyman that's "stealing" our money and "they can't do anything right"...but "we are the greatest country in the world"....
I don't get the hate aimed at "the government"...for me, I think is just people blaming something for their problems...now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "the government" is perfect, I just find the hate misplaced...
It's not hate of the government...it's hate of the fact that if they spend too much they just take more money. No one else can do that, and neither should the government.
True. Just like the TSA seeing people naked and groping them-- this is something that would land anyone but a TSA employee in JAIL. There should be no rule that applies unevenly between employees of the government and citizens of that government-- and that includes business opeartions.
The fact that businesses go under everyday is actually a good thing, as it is purely natural. Supporting failure only leads to greater failure when it is executed by force. Not everyone who attempts to do business is going to be a true success in terms of their goals, but everyone who attempts it leaves something behind for everyone else to learn from. Those who are not delivering goods and services on par with or better than their competition have to change course and strategy to do so, or else they are better off liquidating and being absorbed by other businesses. They could be bought by businesses already well established, or other ones on the up and up. The fact of the matter is, government's best role in this process is to make sure that contracts are enforced between private parties. They are the mediator, the unbiased third party bound to a code that prohibits them from playing favorites. And that is the ultimate beef that Free Market people have with government. They play favorites. They play favorites with everything from energy to education, while their role is supposed to be much more limited by making sure that voluntary exchanges are being performed exactly as they are spelled out, and to bar theft, fraud, and extortion.
Yes, businesses are motivated by profit. The profit motive is capable of yielding both the best and worst results simultaneously. Innovation as well as complete-control monopoly are both born from profit. Can we agree that profit is a concept that is never likely to die?-- it's here to stay so long as man has any form of ego, like all of us, it has its good and its bad points and is not perfect.
People are ultimately choose what is best for them given their options. We know that monopolies yield no options. However, complete-control monopoly DOES NOT EXIST in an Austrian Free Market System. Monopolies are derived from government, from elimination of choice via regulations and laws that make the playing field anything but level, as well as grants, subsidies, and no-bid contracts from government. It's blatantly obvious that nearly head of every government agency is a former CEO of a big business who had been previously given advantages by government to obtain their position of power. This in turn keeps the benefits flowing from whatever Agency to whatever business. Unfair. No matter how bad a certain business wants to take over a market, or even the whole world, it is totally impossible without the force of the government to back it.
Governments create more trusts than they bust. I can liken it to the military industrial complex in how that corporate merger has made us less safe than more safe. Are companies like KBR, Halliburton, and Blackwater wrong for their motives? Definitely. But who cuts them the check? GOVERNMENT.
so you want Gov't to fail...interesting...
I guess that will make things better....
For me, I'd rather the gov't be the gov't and business be business...I don't think gov't should be run as a business...
For me, I'd rather the gov't be the gov't and business be business...I don't think gov't should be run as a business...
See - here's where we agree. I want the government to be the government as well. Its big failure is that it tries to do a lot of things it shouldn't be doing....all in the name of more power for it and less freedom for us.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
it's funny to me how "the government" is a this boogeyman that's "stealing" our money and "they can't do anything right"...but "we are the greatest country in the world"....
I don't get the hate aimed at "the government"...for me, I think is just people blaming something for their problems...now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "the government" is perfect, I just find the hate misplaced...
It's not hate of the government...it's hate of the fact that if they spend too much they just take more money. No one else can do that, and neither should the government.
I know the "spend too much" thing is the flavor of the month right now...
as I've stated, I don't think gov't should be run like a business....our gov't has been around for some time...and it does many great things...folks for some reason fail to see that...
I guess the only thing you can't get away from is death and taxes...I'd like to add "and bitching about taxes"...
For me, I'd rather the gov't be the gov't and business be business...I don't think gov't should be run as a business...
See - here's where we agree. I want the government to be the government as well. Its big failure is that it tries to do a lot of things it shouldn't be doing....all in the name of more power for it and less freedom for us.
one man's freedom is another man's tyranny...
I've got plenty of freedom...I'm not sure where yours has been taken...I think is statements like yours are rhetoric...
The fact that businesses go under everyday is actually a good thing, as it is purely natural. Supporting failure only leads to greater failure when it is executed by force. Not everyone who attempts to do business is going to be a true success in terms of their goals, but everyone who attempts it leaves something behind for everyone else to learn from. Those who are not delivering goods and services on par with or better than their competition have to change course and strategy to do so, or else they are better off liquidating and being absorbed by other businesses. They could be bought by businesses already well established, or other ones on the up and up. The fact of the matter is, government's best role in this process is to make sure that contracts are enforced between private parties. They are the mediator, the unbiased third party bound to a code that prohibits them from playing favorites. And that is the ultimate beef that Free Market people have with government. They play favorites. They play favorites with everything from energy to education, while their role is supposed to be much more limited by making sure that voluntary exchanges are being performed exactly as they are spelled out, and to bar theft, fraud, and extortion.
Yes, businesses are motivated by profit. The profit motive is capable of yielding both the best and worst results simultaneously. Innovation as well as complete-control monopoly are both born from profit. Can we agree that profit is a concept that is never likely to die?-- it's here to stay so long as man has any form of ego, like all of us, it has its good and its bad points and is not perfect.
People are ultimately choose what is best for them given their options. We know that monopolies yield no options. However, complete-control monopoly DOES NOT EXIST in an Austrian Free Market System. Monopolies are derived from government, from elimination of choice via regulations and laws that make the playing field anything but level, as well as grants, subsidies, and no-bid contracts from government. It's blatantly obvious that nearly head of every government agency is a former CEO of a big business who had been previously given advantages by government to obtain their position of power. This in turn keeps the benefits flowing from whatever Agency to whatever business. Unfair. No matter how bad a certain business wants to take over a market, or even the whole world, it is totally impossible without the force of the government to back it.
Governments create more trusts than they bust. I can liken it to the military industrial complex in how that corporate merger has made us less safe than more safe. Are companies like KBR, Halliburton, and Blackwater wrong for their motives? Definitely. But who cuts them the check? GOVERNMENT.
so you want Gov't to fail...interesting...
I guess that will make things better....
For me, I'd rather the gov't be the gov't and business be business...I don't think gov't should be run as a business...
I think you hit the nail on the head except for your first statement. I don't want government to fail, but government that over-extends itself, just like any business, is bound to fail. It will also bring businesses down with it since it's done such a horrible job of separating itself from business.
I've got plenty of freedom...I'm not sure where yours has been taken...I think is statements like yours are rhetoric...
I think the biggest ingredient to freedom these days is access to money. When the government continually tries to take more and more of it away from me, I lose freedom.
Furthermore, when the government gets into running all kinds of programs, mandating this and that, forcing people to do things or not do things they are limiting the freedom of the people they are attempting to control.
I think the government should be about our country's defense, infrastructure and making and enforcing laws that protect us from each other. Everything else, they should quit doing.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I've got plenty of freedom...I'm not sure where yours has been taken...I think is statements like yours are rhetoric...
I think the biggest ingredient to freedom these days is access to money. When the government continually tries to take more and more of it away from me, I lose freedom.
Furthermore, when the government gets into running all kinds of programs, mandating this and that, forcing people to do things or not do things they are limiting the freedom of the people they are attempting to control.
I think the government should be about our country's defense, infrastructure and making and enforcing laws that protect us from each other. Everything else, they should quit doing.
this money=freedom thing an interesting concept...and it seems to be coming up more and more...
are you saying if one doesn't have money then that person is not free...? to me, that's warped thinking...I think is just a veiled attempt to bitch about taxes..."grrr, to gov't is taking my money therefore I'm not free"...
know1 and vinnygoomba are a breath of fresh air on this board. It's good to see that there are some on here that actually realize how bad things are right now and if we don't change directions were all screwed.
I've got plenty of freedom...I'm not sure where yours has been taken...I think is statements like yours are rhetoric...
I think the biggest ingredient to freedom these days is access to money. When the government continually tries to take more and more of it away from me, I lose freedom.
Furthermore, when the government gets into running all kinds of programs, mandating this and that, forcing people to do things or not do things they are limiting the freedom of the people they are attempting to control.
I think the government should be about our country's defense, infrastructure and making and enforcing laws that protect us from each other. Everything else, they should quit doing.
this money=freedom thing an interesting concept...and it seems to be coming up more and more...
are you saying if one doesn't have money then that person is not free...? to me, that's warped thinking...I think is just a veiled attempt to bitch about taxes..."grrr, to gov't is taking my money therefore I'm not free"...
Money is private property. The more someone is deprived of private property that is rightfully theirs, the less free they are. It's just as if someone takes your land, your car, your shirt, etc... There should be as much freedom as possible for each individual to choose what they do with his or her private property. People should be allowed to work hard and keep the fruits of their labor to the maximum extent to which general order can be maintained, and what "general order" is should be determined locally once the Federal Government accomplishes its mission of national defense and a select few other services. If people work harder, or use their intellect to honestly bring them more money and therefore have more options, that is their right. The right also exists to do just the opposite-- to do as little work as one chooses to do, but to not expect anything in return except voluntary exchange with private individuals. There really isn't much difference to personal freedom and economic freedom-- they are closely related. The choices you make with regards to your own body are often dictated by your economic situation, and whether or not you've even been given the opportunity to make a life fit for yourself. Again, government has a horrible historical record of affording people the opportunity to live the lives they have wanted to live: see state-sanctioned slavery, segregation, and a myriad of other violations of people's civil rights.
First and foremost people must recognize that the focus of criticism of our government comes is directed at the Federal Government. It's not an attack on all government, although many state governments are worthy of similar lesser criticism. Their over-reaching into business has distorted better outcomes for everyone who just wants to play nice and mind their own business.
I've got plenty of freedom...I'm not sure where yours has been taken...I think is statements like yours are rhetoric...
I think the biggest ingredient to freedom these days is access to money. When the government continually tries to take more and more of it away from me, I lose freedom.
Furthermore, when the government gets into running all kinds of programs, mandating this and that, forcing people to do things or not do things they are limiting the freedom of the people they are attempting to control.
I think the government should be about our country's defense, infrastructure and making and enforcing laws that protect us from each other. Everything else, they should quit doing.
this money=freedom thing an interesting concept...and it seems to be coming up more and more...
are you saying if one doesn't have money then that person is not free...? to me, that's warped thinking...I think is just a veiled attempt to bitch about taxes..."grrr, to gov't is taking my money therefore I'm not free"...
When you consider that tax dollars often directly go towards an institution that abuses your rights, such as the TSA for a very recent example, then ABSOLUTELY does the government take your money, and it DOES make you less free.
The same can be said for all of the lives lost over wars.
You can't deny that large sums of your money are taken from you by force, and then is used to DIRECTLY FUCK YOU.
Money is private property. The more someone is deprived of private property that is rightfully theirs, the less free they are. It's just as if someone takes your land, your car, your shirt, etc... There should be as much freedom as possible for each individual to choose what they do with his or her private property. People should be allowed to work hard and keep the fruits of their labor to the maximum extent to which general order can be maintained, and what "general order" is should be determined locally once the Federal Government accomplishes its mission of national defense and a select few other services. If people work harder, or use their intellect to honestly bring them more money and therefore have more options, that is their right. The right also exists to do just the opposite-- to do as little work as one chooses to do, but to not expect anything in return except voluntary exchange with private individuals. There really isn't much difference to personal freedom and economic freedom-- they are closely related. The choices you make with regards to your own body are often dictated by your economic situation, and whether or not you've even been given the opportunity to make a life fit for yourself. Again, government has a horrible historical record of affording people the opportunity to live the lives they have wanted to live: see state-sanctioned slavery, segregation, and a myriad of other violations of people's civil rights.
First and foremost people must recognize that the focus of criticism of our government comes is directed at the Federal Government. It's not an attack on all government, although many state governments are worthy of similar lesser criticism. Their over-reaching into business has distorted better outcomes for everyone who just wants to play nice and mind their own business.
all I read here is complaining about taxes...that's it...
paying taxes is the cost of being a citizen of this country...if you don't care for that you are free to make a choice...as I've stated before, I wonder why folks how complain about the gov't don't simply move to the Gov't Free Paradise of Somalia...no gov't = utopia...
what happened to pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and quit blaming others...in this case the gov't is the others...
and the money = freedom thing is just plain stupid...please answer me this:
When you consider that tax dollars often directly go towards an institution that abuses your rights, such as the TSA for a very recent example, then ABSOLUTELY does the government take your money, and it DOES make you less free.
The same can be said for all of the lives lost over wars.
You can't deny that large sums of your money are taken from you by force, and then is used to DIRECTLY FUCK YOU.
a bit dramatic don't you think...
and this TSA hate thing is funny to me...you don't want to go through the scanners...don't...opt for a search...
When you consider that tax dollars often directly go towards an institution that abuses your rights, such as the TSA for a very recent example, then ABSOLUTELY does the government take your money, and it DOES make you less free.
The same can be said for all of the lives lost over wars.
You can't deny that large sums of your money are taken from you by force, and then is used to DIRECTLY FUCK YOU.
a bit dramatic don't you think...
and this TSA hate thing is funny to me...you don't want to go through the scanners...don't...opt for a search...
you don't want to be searched...drive...simple
why is that hard..?
Man, inmytree...you have all the answers. Let's all drive to HAWAII!
Money is private property. The more someone is deprived of private property that is rightfully theirs, the less free they are. It's just as if someone takes your land, your car, your shirt, etc... There should be as much freedom as possible for each individual to choose what they do with his or her private property. People should be allowed to work hard and keep the fruits of their labor to the maximum extent to which general order can be maintained, and what "general order" is should be determined locally once the Federal Government accomplishes its mission of national defense and a select few other services. If people work harder, or use their intellect to honestly bring them more money and therefore have more options, that is their right. The right also exists to do just the opposite-- to do as little work as one chooses to do, but to not expect anything in return except voluntary exchange with private individuals. There really isn't much difference to personal freedom and economic freedom-- they are closely related. The choices you make with regards to your own body are often dictated by your economic situation, and whether or not you've even been given the opportunity to make a life fit for yourself. Again, government has a horrible historical record of affording people the opportunity to live the lives they have wanted to live: see state-sanctioned slavery, segregation, and a myriad of other violations of people's civil rights.
First and foremost people must recognize that the focus of criticism of our government comes is directed at the Federal Government. It's not an attack on all government, although many state governments are worthy of similar lesser criticism. Their over-reaching into business has distorted better outcomes for everyone who just wants to play nice and mind their own business.
all I read here is complaining about taxes...that's it...
paying taxes is the cost of being a citizen of this country...if you don't care for that you are free to make a choice...as I've stated before, I wonder why folks how complain about the gov't don't simply move to the Gov't Free Paradise of Somalia...no gov't = utopia...
what happened to pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and quit blaming others...in this case the gov't is the others...
and the money = freedom thing is just plain stupid...please answer me this:
Is a poor person less free than a rich person...?
I can answer that question. Poor people have less options. poor people can't live where they want, less options around medical assistance, less options around good education. I work with homeless people in toronto and they will tell you that money does = freedom. freedom of not freedom from.
Money is private property. The more someone is deprived of private property that is rightfully theirs, the less free they are. It's just as if someone takes your land, your car, your shirt, etc... There should be as much freedom as possible for each individual to choose what they do with his or her private property. People should be allowed to work hard and keep the fruits of their labor to the maximum extent to which general order can be maintained, and what "general order" is should be determined locally once the Federal Government accomplishes its mission of national defense and a select few other services. If people work harder, or use their intellect to honestly bring them more money and therefore have more options, that is their right. The right also exists to do just the opposite-- to do as little work as one chooses to do, but to not expect anything in return except voluntary exchange with private individuals. There really isn't much difference to personal freedom and economic freedom-- they are closely related. The choices you make with regards to your own body are often dictated by your economic situation, and whether or not you've even been given the opportunity to make a life fit for yourself. Again, government has a horrible historical record of affording people the opportunity to live the lives they have wanted to live: see state-sanctioned slavery, segregation, and a myriad of other violations of people's civil rights.
First and foremost people must recognize that the focus of criticism of our government comes is directed at the Federal Government. It's not an attack on all government, although many state governments are worthy of similar lesser criticism. Their over-reaching into business has distorted better outcomes for everyone who just wants to play nice and mind their own business.
all I read here is complaining about taxes...that's it...
paying taxes is the cost of being a citizen of this country...if you don't care for that you are free to make a choice...as I've stated before, I wonder why folks how complain about the gov't don't simply move to the Gov't Free Paradise of Somalia...no gov't = utopia...
what happened to pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and quit blaming others...in this case the gov't is the others...
and the money = freedom thing is just plain stupid...please answer me this:
Is a poor person less free than a rich person...?
A poor person has all the same rights as a rich person. A poor person may not have the same options as a rich person. Or does he? Maybe if the poor person refuses to work, he may have time where the rich guy spends his time working. Regardless, both have a right to do what they want with what they earn. If you read any of my posts, and it's clear that you haven't, I've already clearly stated that I support government, and totally prefer honest government that hasn't grown itself to the point where it intrudes on other people's lives, and become too large to be sustained. The role of government in this country clearly needs to be re-examined.
And bottom line, if you love throwing your money away, at any cost, because "that's the price of being a citizen," I'm cool with that. I personally like getting what I pay for, or at least close to it, and feel I shouldn't be subjected to the system that you clearly endorse, despite the fact that most of it is IS ILLEGAL, and actively does rob people of their rights and freedom. No one minds paying for positive results. I see more positive coming out of the private sector when competition is not stifled, and the playing field is level.
And the choice is NOT there to move where I want. Most of the other countries in the world that are worth moving to wouldn't grant citizenship to an American trying to live there. It must have something to do with a certain reputation that has proceeded us, thanks to, you guessed it, an out of control government.
People who love the government tend to hate monopolies. The irony? Government is the greatest monopoly there is.
Why do I even bother? Just do yourself a favor and just skip to this line: "ME NO LIKE TAXES! TAXES BAD! ALL TAXES BAD!"
all I read here is complaining about taxes...that's it...
paying taxes is the cost of being a citizen of this country...if you don't care for that you are free to make a choice...as I've stated before, I wonder why folks how complain about the gov't don't simply move to the Gov't Free Paradise of Somalia...no gov't = utopia...
what happened to pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and quit blaming others...in this case the gov't is the others...
and the money = freedom thing is just plain stupid...please answer me this:
Is a poor person less free than a rich person...?
Hahaha..now man the love it or leave it crowd sure has changed.
I can answer that question. Poor people have less options. poor people can't live where they want, less options around medical assistance, less options around good education. I work with homeless people in toronto and they will tell you that money does = freedom. freedom of not freedom from.
just because one can't live were one wants doesn't mean they are not free from ever doing so...
the poor may not be able to do something that doesn't mean they are not free to ever do it...
you see, this notion of freedom = money is a ruse to complain about paying taxes...
many of those who do think the money = freedom are often champions of freedom...thus, I would think they would be ok with redistributing the freedom (money) to all...right...?
Comments
goods sold to save lives or make life better, health care supplies, they are already taxed. things like food and shelter, things people need to survive. but this, what, trillion dollar industry of trading companies is left entirely alone.
another glaring example of who the government really serves.
who would manage it better
buinsess? ummmm no, not when profit is the bottom dollar
you taxes have nothing to do with lessening freedom. but your taxes do pay for everything from Libraries to police/fire to mental health services
privatization is not the answer
um...ok... :?
it's funny to me how "the government" is a this boogeyman that's "stealing" our money and "they can't do anything right"...but "we are the greatest country in the world"....
I don't get the hate aimed at "the government"...for me, I think is just people blaming something for their problems...now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying "the government" is perfect, I just find the hate misplaced...
I absolutely believe that business would manage money much, much better than the government.
One of the concepts that I base this on is that business doesn't have the POWER to just force people to give them more money to cover up their incompetence. They either do it right or they go out of business.
Our government has a great big safety net and no worries about being efficient.
It's laughable that anyone would think that the government can do ANYTHING more efficiently than the private sector.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The assumption that just because something is private it automatically means they do it better and more efficent is what's laughable. They CAN, yes. But it depends a lot on what we're specifically talking about, the nature of the good/service in question, the scale of operations and so on.
Peace
Dan
"Every judgment teeters on the brink of error. To claim absolute knowledge is to become monstrous. Knowledge is an unending adventure at the edge of uncertainty." - Frank Herbert, Dune, 1965
business go out of business all the time...every day...in fact, in sure a business is shuttering the windows and locking the doors right now...
I find it laughable that you don't understand that...
The fact that businesses go under everyday is actually a good thing, as it is purely natural. Supporting failure only leads to greater failure when it is executed by force. Not everyone who attempts to do business is going to be a true success in terms of their goals, but everyone who attempts it leaves something behind for everyone else to learn from. Those who are not delivering goods and services on par with or better than their competition have to change course and strategy to do so, or else they are better off liquidating and being absorbed by other businesses. They could be bought by businesses already well established, or other ones on the up and up. The fact of the matter is, government's best role in this process is to make sure that contracts are enforced between private parties. They are the mediator, the unbiased third party bound to a code that prohibits them from playing favorites. And that is the ultimate beef that Free Market people have with government. They play favorites. They play favorites with everything from energy to education, while their role is supposed to be much more limited by making sure that voluntary exchanges are being performed exactly as they are spelled out, and to bar theft, fraud, and extortion.
Yes, businesses are motivated by profit. The profit motive is capable of yielding both the best and worst results simultaneously. Innovation as well as complete-control monopoly are both born from profit. Can we agree that profit is a concept that is never likely to die?-- it's here to stay so long as man has any form of ego, like all of us, it has its good and its bad points and is not perfect.
People are ultimately choose what is best for them given their options. We know that monopolies yield no options. However, complete-control monopoly DOES NOT EXIST in an Austrian Free Market System. Monopolies are derived from government, from elimination of choice via regulations and laws that make the playing field anything but level, as well as grants, subsidies, and no-bid contracts from government. It's blatantly obvious that nearly head of every government agency is a former CEO of a big business who had been previously given advantages by government to obtain their position of power. This in turn keeps the benefits flowing from whatever Agency to whatever business. Unfair. No matter how bad a certain business wants to take over a market, or even the whole world, it is totally impossible without the force of the government to back it.
Governments create more trusts than they bust. I can liken it to the military industrial complex in how that corporate merger has made us less safe than more safe. Are companies like KBR, Halliburton, and Blackwater wrong for their motives? Definitely. But who cuts them the check? GOVERNMENT.
Hmmm...not liking the idea of taxing people's $ when they are trying to save for retirement...but day-trading, etc...interesting idea.
They sure do. You know why? because if they don't do a good job and run efficiently, they can't just go get more $ to pay for their mistakes and keep things going. Gov't does that, and does that for some businesses as well.
It's not hate of the government...it's hate of the fact that if they spend too much they just take more money. No one else can do that, and neither should the government.
Look at the auto companies. Most of them should have failed in the 70s and guess who got bailed out again? Not letting them go through legal bankruptcy when they should have failed initially ended up costing all of us more 30 years later.
What's worse is, look at the government-granted advantage that the American automakers have-- All of our municipal vehicles from state on through federal have to be either a Ford, Chevy, or GM, AND THEY STILL FOUND A WAY TO FAIL, TWICE!!! No Toyotas, Hondas, Mercedes, etc... allowed, paid through tax dollars, and they had to come begging us for billions on top of the billions they've already been HANDED.
Much of the distrust of business is completly warranted, but in the end it is always the government that holds the power to tip the scales in their favor, and it is THEY who cave in to it all too often, and stick the rest of us with the bill.
True. Just like the TSA seeing people naked and groping them-- this is something that would land anyone but a TSA employee in JAIL. There should be no rule that applies unevenly between employees of the government and citizens of that government-- and that includes business opeartions.
so you want Gov't to fail...interesting...
I guess that will make things better....
For me, I'd rather the gov't be the gov't and business be business...I don't think gov't should be run as a business...
See - here's where we agree. I want the government to be the government as well. Its big failure is that it tries to do a lot of things it shouldn't be doing....all in the name of more power for it and less freedom for us.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I know the "spend too much" thing is the flavor of the month right now...
as I've stated, I don't think gov't should be run like a business....our gov't has been around for some time...and it does many great things...folks for some reason fail to see that...
I guess the only thing you can't get away from is death and taxes...I'd like to add "and bitching about taxes"...
one man's freedom is another man's tyranny...
I've got plenty of freedom...I'm not sure where yours has been taken...I think is statements like yours are rhetoric...
I think you hit the nail on the head except for your first statement. I don't want government to fail, but government that over-extends itself, just like any business, is bound to fail. It will also bring businesses down with it since it's done such a horrible job of separating itself from business.
I think the biggest ingredient to freedom these days is access to money. When the government continually tries to take more and more of it away from me, I lose freedom.
Furthermore, when the government gets into running all kinds of programs, mandating this and that, forcing people to do things or not do things they are limiting the freedom of the people they are attempting to control.
I think the government should be about our country's defense, infrastructure and making and enforcing laws that protect us from each other. Everything else, they should quit doing.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
this money=freedom thing an interesting concept...and it seems to be coming up more and more...
are you saying if one doesn't have money then that person is not free...? to me, that's warped thinking...I think is just a veiled attempt to bitch about taxes..."grrr, to gov't is taking my money therefore I'm not free"...
Money is private property. The more someone is deprived of private property that is rightfully theirs, the less free they are. It's just as if someone takes your land, your car, your shirt, etc... There should be as much freedom as possible for each individual to choose what they do with his or her private property. People should be allowed to work hard and keep the fruits of their labor to the maximum extent to which general order can be maintained, and what "general order" is should be determined locally once the Federal Government accomplishes its mission of national defense and a select few other services. If people work harder, or use their intellect to honestly bring them more money and therefore have more options, that is their right. The right also exists to do just the opposite-- to do as little work as one chooses to do, but to not expect anything in return except voluntary exchange with private individuals. There really isn't much difference to personal freedom and economic freedom-- they are closely related. The choices you make with regards to your own body are often dictated by your economic situation, and whether or not you've even been given the opportunity to make a life fit for yourself. Again, government has a horrible historical record of affording people the opportunity to live the lives they have wanted to live: see state-sanctioned slavery, segregation, and a myriad of other violations of people's civil rights.
First and foremost people must recognize that the focus of criticism of our government comes is directed at the Federal Government. It's not an attack on all government, although many state governments are worthy of similar lesser criticism. Their over-reaching into business has distorted better outcomes for everyone who just wants to play nice and mind their own business.
When you consider that tax dollars often directly go towards an institution that abuses your rights, such as the TSA for a very recent example, then ABSOLUTELY does the government take your money, and it DOES make you less free.
The same can be said for all of the lives lost over wars.
You can't deny that large sums of your money are taken from you by force, and then is used to DIRECTLY FUCK YOU.
all I read here is complaining about taxes...that's it...
paying taxes is the cost of being a citizen of this country...if you don't care for that you are free to make a choice...as I've stated before, I wonder why folks how complain about the gov't don't simply move to the Gov't Free Paradise of Somalia...no gov't = utopia...
what happened to pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and quit blaming others...in this case the gov't is the others...
and the money = freedom thing is just plain stupid...please answer me this:
Is a poor person less free than a rich person...?
a bit dramatic don't you think...
and this TSA hate thing is funny to me...you don't want to go through the scanners...don't...opt for a search...
you don't want to be searched...drive...simple
why is that hard..?
Man, inmytree...you have all the answers. Let's all drive to HAWAII!
I'd rather take a boat...
when do you want to leave...?
I can answer that question. Poor people have less options. poor people can't live where they want, less options around medical assistance, less options around good education. I work with homeless people in toronto and they will tell you that money does = freedom. freedom of not freedom from.
A poor person has all the same rights as a rich person. A poor person may not have the same options as a rich person. Or does he? Maybe if the poor person refuses to work, he may have time where the rich guy spends his time working. Regardless, both have a right to do what they want with what they earn. If you read any of my posts, and it's clear that you haven't, I've already clearly stated that I support government, and totally prefer honest government that hasn't grown itself to the point where it intrudes on other people's lives, and become too large to be sustained. The role of government in this country clearly needs to be re-examined.
And bottom line, if you love throwing your money away, at any cost, because "that's the price of being a citizen," I'm cool with that. I personally like getting what I pay for, or at least close to it, and feel I shouldn't be subjected to the system that you clearly endorse, despite the fact that most of it is IS ILLEGAL, and actively does rob people of their rights and freedom. No one minds paying for positive results. I see more positive coming out of the private sector when competition is not stifled, and the playing field is level.
And the choice is NOT there to move where I want. Most of the other countries in the world that are worth moving to wouldn't grant citizenship to an American trying to live there. It must have something to do with a certain reputation that has proceeded us, thanks to, you guessed it, an out of control government.
People who love the government tend to hate monopolies. The irony? Government is the greatest monopoly there is.
Why do I even bother? Just do yourself a favor and just skip to this line: "ME NO LIKE TAXES! TAXES BAD! ALL TAXES BAD!"
Hahaha..now man the love it or leave it crowd sure has changed.
just because one can't live were one wants doesn't mean they are not free from ever doing so...
the poor may not be able to do something that doesn't mean they are not free to ever do it...
you see, this notion of freedom = money is a ruse to complain about paying taxes...
many of those who do think the money = freedom are often champions of freedom...thus, I would think they would be ok with redistributing the freedom (money) to all...right...?