do you find it difficult to reconcile your beliefs with...

catefrances

... those of people whose work youve come to admire?

would upon finding out one of your most personally treasured and influential writers was an antisemite somehow taint all those words youve read of theirs? would it make you think differently of them? could you separate their attitude from their work?

whygohome

catefrances wrote:

... those of people whose work youve come to admire?

would upon finding out one of your most personally treasured and influential writers was an antisemite somehow taint all those words youve read of theirs? would it make you think differently of them? could you separate their attitude from their work?

A good question.

As an English major - PhD - it would be difficult for me to separate the author from his beliefs. I like to romanticize and idealize the written word as an extension of the writer. However,there are a few examples that come to mind, namely one of my favorite authors, Jack Kerouac. His time as "Sal Paradise" or "Ray Smith" was relatively short lived, and in his later years he shunned the associations of his past. he rarely spoke to Neil Cassady, Ginsberg, or Burroughs. He did not embrace the counterculture of the 1960s like many fellow Beats. He died as a Republican in favor of Vietnam, alone (for the most part) and drunk.

I'll likely think of a few more examples in the future.

catefrances

whygohome wrote:

A good question.

As an English major - PhD - it would be difficult for me to separate the author from his beliefs. I like to romanticize and idealize the written word as an extension of the writer. However,there are a few examples that come to mind, namely one of my favorite authors, Jack Kerouac. His time as "Sal Paradise" or "Ray Smith" was relatively short lived, and in his later years he shunned the associations of his past. he rarely spoke to Neil Cassady, Ginsberg, or Burroughs. He did not embrace the counterculture of the 1960s like many fellow Beats. He died as a Republican in favor of Vietnam, alone (for the most part) and drunk.

I'll likely think of a few more examples in the future.

ha! kerouac was exactly who i was thinking of.

i understand the foundation upon which his beliefs were based but i cant quite get around how ingrained they were for him.and that they stayed that way. that there was always this underlying current.

whygohome

catefrances wrote:

whygohome wrote:

A good question.

As an English major - PhD - it would be difficult for me to separate the author from his beliefs. I like to romanticize and idealize the written word as an extension of the writer. However,there are a few examples that come to mind, namely one of my favorite authors, Jack Kerouac. His time as "Sal Paradise" or "Ray Smith" was relatively short lived, and in his later years he shunned the associations of his past. he rarely spoke to Neil Cassady, Ginsberg, or Burroughs. He did not embrace the counterculture of the 1960s like many fellow Beats. He died as a Republican in favor of Vietnam, alone (for the most part) and drunk.

I'll likely think of a few more examples in the future.

ha! kerouac was exactly who i was thinking of.

i understand the foundation upon which his beliefs were based but i cant quite get around how ingrained they were for him.and that they stayed that way. that there was always this underlying current.

It comes back to Mommy (and childhood) and religion. For the former, that crazy Austrian Freud was on to something!

catefrances

yes memere has a lot to answer for.

Jason P

I think you have to follow your gut instincts. If there is an artist or author that has a different political ideology, I can respectfully disagree but still enjoy their product. For myself, Rage Against the Machine would be a perfect example. However, if I found out Zach is a racist or beats women I would draw a line in the sand and that knowledge would prevent me from enjoying their product and I would end up boycotting their work.

In the world of athletics, Ben Rothlesberger, Mick Vick, and even Brett Favre are good examples. I have a lot of cheese-heads as relatives and they have been 50/50 on supporting Brett, even when he went to the hated Vikings. Mostly, it was the female fans that held him dear to their hearts . . . but after the sexting scandle he has lost nearly all the female fans except those that are in denial (like my mom :shh: ).

In conclusion, follow your moral compass and you will be fine.

BinFrog

To degree I can separate the artist from the message if I really appreciate the music/art. For example: Axl Rose. From 1987-1992 GnR were kings. Appetite and UYI 1&2 are still staples in my collection. But Axl is a complete dirtbag. He's a wife beater, Charles Manson admirer, and he has done everything possible to tarnish GnR's legacy. But in his heyday, he was the pinnacle frontman and their music still stands up. GnR was entirely badass for the span of about 5 years.

There are some artists that I completely disrespect, but I was never a fan of their music to begin with so it does not affect my musical world a whole lot (Toby Keith, Ted Nugent, Lauryn Hill to name a few). And while I think Lars Ulrich & company have completely sold out in every way possible, I still love Metallica's first 4 albums.

So, succinctly, it depends.

arq

BinFrog wrote:

And while I think Lars Ulrich & company have completely sold out in every way possible...

Let's turn this thread into "why metallica sold out?" I still love them they were my favorite band before PJ BUT i love every single record of them, even the load and reload... YES i like them too! lol How in the world a band could sold out? I know music is an art but at the end is a business too, i guess any artist would like to bring food to their tables... really good food served by butlers and cooked by chefs

Godfather.

most of you know my position on the gay think but that does not keep me from enjoying some the best music that I have ever heard.
but here's a short story (true)..
when my son was about 11 yrs old we went to guitar lessons every Monday and one day his teacher told us that Kerry King of slayer was coming to the guitar shop for a small performance and a chance to play a K.K riff with him so we went,l loaded Rusty and his guitar on the back of my bike the day of the show and took off...on the way there we came across a young boy about Rusty's age laying half under a car and blade scooter off to the side with 3-4 adults around him as we drove by it was like going in slow motion,so we get to the show and we were watching K.K play (solo) and I just felt like we shouldn't be there then right then a guy about in his mid 20's walks by bare footed and looked right at us and smiled it felt like he was saying in a comforting way I am watching over you and your son and we didn't see him the rest of the show or sense,we went to the back entrance after the show to meet Kerry got a autographed guitar he even autographed my bike tank (waxed of soon after) got some pic's and went home then on the way home going over the Balboa over pass there was a young man trying to jump off the bridge onto the freeway and cop trying to talk him out of it and as far as I know he didn't jump.
Kerry's wife told me Kerry is really into devils and demons...who da thunk it right..being in a band called slayer
but anyway the whole day just gave me a bad feeling about Kerry and the the whole slayer thing and sense then have not spent anytime listening to he or the band, I had always discredit that stuff in rock-n-roll and even laughed it off but that day with K.K really freaked me out.

Godfather.

whygohome

Godfather. wrote:

most of you know my position on the gay think but that does not keep me from enjoying some the best music that I have ever heard.
but here's a short story (true)..
when my son was about 11 yrs old we went to guitar lessons every Monday and one day his teacher told us that Kerry King of slayer was coming to the guitar shop for a small performance and a chance to play a K.K riff with him so we went,l loaded Rusty and his guitar on the back of my bike the day of the show and took off...on the way there we came across a young boy about Rusty's age laying half under a car and blade scooter off to the side with 3-4 adults around him as we drove by it was like going in slow motion,so we get to the show and we were watching K.K play (solo) and I just felt like we shouldn't be there then right then a guy about in his mid 20's walks by bare footed and looked right at us and smiled it felt like he was saying in a comforting way I am watching over you and your son and we didn't see him the rest of the show or sense,we went to the back entrance after the show to meet Kerry got a autographed guitar he even autographed my bike tank (waxed of soon after) got some pic's and went home then on the way home going over the Balboa over pass there was a young man trying to jump off the bridge onto the freeway and cop trying to talk him out of it and as far as I know he didn't jump.
Kerry's wife told me Kerry is really into devils and demons...who da thunk it right..being in a band called slayer
but anyway the whole day just gave me a bad feeling about Kerry and the the whole slayer thing and sense then have not spent anytime listening to he or the band, I had always discredit that stuff in rock-n-roll and even laughed it off but that day with K.K really freaked me out.

Godfather.

Interesting. Not sure how I would handle this.

catefrances

Jason P wrote:

I think you have to follow your gut instincts. If there is an artist or author that has a different political ideology, I can respectfully disagree but still enjoy their product. For myself, Rage Against the Machine would be a perfect example. However, if I found out Zach is a racist or beats women I would draw a line in the sand and that knowledge would prevent me from enjoying their product and I would end up boycotting their work.

In the world of athletics, Ben Rothlesberger, Mick Vick, and even Brett Favre are good examples. I have a lot of cheese-heads as relatives and they have been 50/50 on supporting Brett, even when he went to the hated Vikings. Mostly, it was the female fans that held him dear to their hearts . . . but after the sexting scandle he has lost nearly all the female fans except those that are in denial (like my mom :shh: ).

In conclusion, follow your moral compass and you will be fine.

im already fine. i was just curious. im reading a bio on jack kerouac and although im already aware of his 'biases', reading about an incident involving his father and some rabbis still made me pause a moment. i guess we all have in our minds how some people appear to us and sometimes we come across something that gives that perception a little nudge and you think hmm.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

if Ed came out and said he loved Nickleback I'd still love pearl jam. Maybe not for a while, but I'd forgive them.

catefrances

Paul David wrote:

if Ed came out and said he loved Nickleback I'd still love pearl jam. Maybe not for a while, but I'd forgive them.

no im sorry.. youve got to draw the line somewhere.



i titled this thread wrong im thinking. what i meant was...
how do you reconcile your perception of people you admire with the truth when you discover it... if theyve always been presented(by themselves or general concensus) a certain way? does that make sense?

ONCE DEVIDED

I will put it in the PJ/Ed perspective

I love the music, the words written etc
If Ed held views I couldnt agree with/ reconsile my beleifs well I reckon ed has the right to his opinion and would leave it at that.
I wouldnt like the music, the lyrics any less.
That being said I wouldnt listen to songs that I didnt agree with, or then again

Just because somebody dosnt have the best views on a subject moraly, it dosnt lessen the views they have on other subjects. unless its all colored by a particular viewpiont.

ONCE DEVIDED

arq wrote:

BinFrog wrote:

And while I think Lars Ulrich & company have completely sold out in every way possible...

Let's turn this thread into "why metallica sold out?" I still love them they were my favorite band before PJ BUT i love every single record of them, even the load and reload... YES i like them too! lol How in the world a band could sold out? I know music is an art but at the end is a business too, i guess any artist would like to bring food to their tables... really good food served by butlers and cooked by chefs

its their art. let em make some coin from it.
Some of my favs have sold out
Blink 182 were so good early, then they got popular and stared making the same song again and again. I still love the early stuff
green day too

if you have a product that sells well, would you sell it as much as you could.
you cannot say that of pj though. every albums a different journey. if anything vitology through to yeild were an opposite
get rid of the popular tag.
they did it and save d themselves in the process
Integrity & Intensity

catefrances

ONCE DEVIDED wrote:

its their art. let em make some coin from it.
Some of my favs have sold out
Blink 182 were so good early, then they got popular and stared making the same song again and again. I still love the early stuff
green day too

if you have a product that sells well, would you sell it as much as you could.
you cannot say that of pj though. every albums a different journey. if anything vitology through to yeild were an opposite
get rid of the popular tag.
they did it and save d themselves in the process
Integrity & Intensity

so you dont like the mature green day??? just curious, not picking a fight.

FinsburyParkCarrots

Ideas of authorial intention are a bit too romantic-humanistic and pre-Wimsatt and Beardsley for me, I have to admit even with an open mind. I can certainly appreciate and point to the role of author biography in scholarly research of the evolution of a text from inception through production to reception, and within modified parameters biographical readings are often very useful in New Historicist criticism, along with intertextual observation of other sources and analogues. But I'd be more inclined to take a Machereyan approach and try to recognise ideological tensions, gaps, silences, hidden assumptions and anxieties and emergent radical ideas over which the text or even the physical author may have no control.

"The text does not know itself" was Macherey's argument: if you take a Derridean line - which I wouldn't, by the way - you could push ideas about the instability of language and the impossibility of generating intended meaning to fancy lengths. Macherey's method is useful when you're looking at a work such as A Passage To India. You might know Forster had a genteel, liberal and critical take on British rule in India, and there's a lot to back up the view that this shaped the novel until you tease out the orientalism in the descriptions of Aziz and the Marabar caves (or read some of the draft passages that are even more controversial in their Otherings). Did Forster intend this? It might not even matter. You have to go to the text ultimately, rather than the artist, to be able to explore how art represents in microcosmic forms its societies' competing world views. In the end, I'm not bothered about the artist's beliefs as much as how their - and editors, and compositors, and readers' - use of language, form and theme constructs a text as a battlefield of opposing views.

ONCE DEVIDED

catefrances wrote:

so you dont like the mature green day??? just curious, not picking a fight.

Naqh I like and still buy em
but fark they were good in the days of dookie and insomniac. farking a blast. and im not against them earning coin either.
Im actualy wearing my insomniac T today green ugly thang it is too
blink on the other hand went to bland and boring

catefrances

FinsburyParkCarrots wrote:

Ideas of authorial intention are a bit too romantic-humanistic and pre-Wimsatt and Beardsley for me, I have to admit even with an open mind. I can certainly appreciate and point to the role of author biography in scholarly research of the evolution of a text from inception through production to reception, and within modified parameters biographical readings are often very useful in New Historicist criticism, along with intertextual observation of other sources and analogues. But I'd be more inclined to take a Machereyan approach and try to recognise ideological tensions, gaps, silences, hidden assumptions and anxieties and emergent radical ideas over which the text or even the physical author may have no control.

"The text does not know itself" was Macherey's argument: if you take a Derridean line - which I wouldn't, by the way - you could push ideas about the instability of language and the impossibility of generating intended meaning to fancy lengths. Macherey's method is useful when you're looking at a work such as A Passage To India. You might know Forster had a genteel, liberal and critical take on British rule in India, and there's a lot to back up the view that this shaped the novel until you tease out the orientalism in the descriptions of Aziz and the Marabar caves (or read some of the draft passages that are even more controversial in their Otherings). Did Forster intend this? It might not even matter. You have to go to the text ultimately, rather than the artist, to be able to explore how art represents in microcosmic forms its societies' competing world views. In the end, I'm not bothered about the artist's beliefs as much as how their - and editors, and compositors, and readers' - use of language, form and theme constructs a text as a battlefield of opposing views.

yes i had thought of that fins. but im not even talking about authorial intention. cause in my mind the authors intention is irrelevant.

i didnt word my initial query clearly and its tripping me up atm.

catefrances

ONCE DEVIDED wrote:

catefrances wrote:

so you dont like the mature green day??? just curious, not picking a fight.

Naqh I like and still buy em
but fark they were good in the days of dookie and insomniac. farking a blast. and im not against them earning coin either.
Im actualy wearing my insomniac T today green ugly thang it is too
blink on the other hand went to bland and boring

after a while i thought blink were giving us the bird. like they knew the joke and werent letting us in on it. plus i always felt like wanting to slap tom. though i have to admit travis was the reason i ever gave them any time at all.

just listened to nimrod and american idiot back to back.. and theres a definite difference. but i think its a maturity thing and theyve learnt to say the same things just in a different way.

i hate the term sell out. i like to refer people to TOOLs hooker with a penis. cause you know... whos zooming who.

ONCE DEVIDED

catefrances wrote:

after a while i thought blink were giving us the bird. like they knew the joke and werent letting us in on it. plus i always felt like wanting to slap tom. though i have to admit travis was the reason i ever gave them any time at all.

just listened to nimrod and american idiot back to back.. and theres a definite difference. but i think its a maturity thing and theyve learnt to say the same things just in a different way.

i hate the term sell out. i like to refer people to TOOLs hooker with a penis. cause you know... whos zooming who.

Bands that start out with a fresh sound as the bands discussed, I will always give a listen . they have an artisic integrity. These corporate bands however need to be shot, cannot stand record industry SHIT
Nimrod aghhhhhhhhhhhh How could I forget.

BinFrog

ONCE DEVIDED wrote:

arq wrote:

BinFrog wrote:

And while I think Lars Ulrich & company have completely sold out in every way possible...

Let's turn this thread into "why metallica sold out?" I still love them they were my favorite band before PJ BUT i love every single record of them, even the load and reload... YES i like them too! lol How in the world a band could sold out? I know music is an art but at the end is a business too, i guess any artist would like to bring food to their tables... really good food served by butlers and cooked by chefs

its their art. let em make some coin from it.
Some of my favs have sold out
Blink 182 were so good early, then they got popular and stared making the same song again and again. I still love the early stuff
green day too

I can't say I blame Metallica for wanting to cash in. And I also can't blame them for toning it down a bit after all those years. I mean, after making pinnacle heavy metal for a decade, I'm sure they just wanted to branch out.

The whole Napster thing was what soured me. To that point it was ok that they didn't make music I loved anymore. But when Metallica, a band that became an underground phenomenon by letting fans freely trade their early bootlegs, tried to crush the little guy in every way possible...even those only trading bootlegs and not albums...they lost me.

To me, PJ did it right. I know some people had issues with the whole Target deal. But I truly think PJ's heart has been in the right place. They seem to make albums THEY want to make. They tour when THEY want to tour. And we all know how generous they are to the fans. Yeah, they have a ton of merch, maybe too much, but that's only because we gobble it up. To me they are the modern day example of integrity. To some they may have gotten boring with old age but to me they are like a well shelved '90 Cabernet.

catefrances

BinFrog wrote:

... And we all know how generous they are to the fans. ...

so generous that theyre allowing the fans to pay for the privilege.

BinFrog

catefrances wrote:

BinFrog wrote:

... And we all know how generous they are to the fans. ...

so generous that theyre allowing the fans to pay for the privilege.

Name another band that gives you access to the best seats in the house for $20 a year...and you also get well done newsletters and an Easter single?

catefrances

BinFrog wrote:

catefrances wrote:

BinFrog wrote:

... And we all know how generous they are to the fans. ...

so generous that theyre allowing the fans to pay for the privilege.

Name another band that gives you access to the best seats in the house for $20 a year...and you also get well done newsletters and an Easter single?

and then throws you a stadium gig with no reserved seats.

i understand what youre saying binfroggie and id have to research that before i gave you an answer. but either you join 10club or you cant be a part of this community here. and it doesnt matter if pj tour your country or not, so best seat access is irrelevant to quite a few people. ive watched as some of my closest pj friends have disappeared through the gaps. and that saddens me.

BinFrog

catefrances wrote:

and then throws you a stadium gig with no reserved seats.

i understand what youre saying binfroggie and id have to research that before i gave you an answer. but either you join 10club or you cant be a part of this community here. and it doesnt matter if pj tour your country or not, so best seat access is irrelevant to quite a few people. ive watched as some of my closest pj friends have disappeared through the gaps. and that saddens me.

You can't please all of your fans all the time. It's bound to happen. For every show that slips through the cracks and does not work out 100% for the fanclub members, there are 30 shows that are complete gems.

catefrances

BinFrog wrote:

catefrances wrote:

and then throws you a stadium gig with no reserved seats.

i understand what youre saying binfroggie and id have to research that before i gave you an answer. but either you join 10club or you cant be a part of this community here. and it doesnt matter if pj tour your country or not, so best seat access is irrelevant to quite a few people. ive watched as some of my closest pj friends have disappeared through the gaps. and that saddens me.

You can't please all of your fans all the time. It's bound to happen. For every show that slips through the cracks and does not work out 100% for the fanclub members, there are 30 shows that are complete gems.

im not even really talking about shows that slip through the fingers. im talking about friends that have been alienated from, and by pearl jam. i want the band to know that. and realise what happened when they took away peoples choice to stay and contribute in this community as free settlers. and by friends im not just speaking of my friends.

JonnyPistachio

I bet if I knew everything about all my favorite arists, I wouldnt have many favorite artists anymore.

know1

Interesting question. I guess I don't really admire the work of too many people, but it seems the ones I do admire are the ones whose beliefs match up with my own.

Jeanwah

I had a real tough time accepting PJ and their 180 degree flip on integrity over a year ago. I loved this band for what they stood up for, first and foremost, and then they sing a different tune? I stopped listening for months, before I could accept them for what they've turned into, and it took just as long for myself to try and understand why they did it. I've decided to settle for loving the music, as it still means the same to me, but I no longer respect EV and the rest like I used to. And no comment about what I think about band management. I'm still here because of all the great people I've met through loving the band, and they're worth it...as well as the music. But I'm coming back around to appreciating EV for who he is.

Sometime we have to stop holding our heroes up on pedestals. Or we'll continually let ourselves down. So I'm OK with the band now, knowing that they're as flawed as I am.

pandora

Jeanwah wrote:

I had a real tough time accepting PJ and their 180 degree flip on integrity over a year ago. I loved this band for what they stood up for, first and foremost, and then they sing a different tune? I stopped listening for months, before I could accept them for what they've turned into, and it took just as long for myself to try and understand why they did it. I've decided to settle for loving the music, as it still means the same to me, but I no longer respect EV and the rest like I used to. And no comment about what I think about band management. I'm still here because of all the great people I've met through loving the band, and they're worth it...as well as the music. But I'm coming back around to appreciating EV for who he is.

Sometime we have to stop holding our heroes up on pedestals. Or we'll continually let ourselves down. So I'm OK with the band now, knowing that they're as flawed as I am.

Loving the music is what they give to us... a great gift.
Us loving others in spite of their choices is our gift to them.
I know what lives in your heart and its beautiful. Your life lessons have taught you so much,
more than I can even imagine.
Sorry for your disappointment, as you know, you weren't alone.
We all disappoint each other though, sad human fact.
I'm very glad you are here with us, that the music kept you here, your spirit is needed.