got syphillus? US govt probably gave it to you

Godfather.

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

I'm just tired of seeing this fools only achievements are kissing everybody's ass and saying "I'm sorry".
and really ..you act like the US is a bad place to live and we have ruined the world,do you think the US did this just to attack Guatemala ? please read why it was done and think about the progress that this drug has made in countries all over the world, you have no idea what shitty stuff is,you and people like you sit at home and judge with little to no knowledge of the facts other than what you read on the net..I can 't believe you're that gullible to stand and argue and discredit your own country over a stupid ass Internet article so please save your A through D crap and US bashing for people that only care to see the surface or believe only what the Internet tells them,it's a big world out there and a lot more to it than the BS the net and media tells you..
I thought you might know better than that ?

Godfather.

do you think these experiments were ethical? when you experiment on human beings you have to have their consent and disclose what you are doing to them. that is why every bit of research has to be cleared by the human subjects review at every university. my research had to be cleared by the committe and all i was looking at is whether or not a straight bar bench press recruits more muscle fibers to fire than dumbbell bench press using emg biofeedback. if people carry out research nf diseases like this without human subject consent, then ethically speaking they really are no different than josef mengele.

in a straight answer to that NO, but I don't know that I find our health care system ethical either..new or old.
and also you are in the medical field right ? you must have a better idea about how experimental medicine works and how it is tested,what do think of the risk to gain factor in medicine ?

Godfather.

gimmesometruth27

Godfather. wrote:

in a straight answer to that NO, but I don't know that I find our health care system ethical either..new or old.
and also you are in the medical field right ? you must have a better idea about how experimental medicine works and how it is tested,what do think of the risk to gain factor in medicine ?

Godfather.

in my not so expert opinion, i believe that in experiments on human subjects the ends never justify the means, especially if the subject has no idea what you are injecting them with, in this case a bacterial agent,or that they can be harmed as a result of the experimental methods. these things have to be disclosed. anybody who has ever taken more than a week's worth of an ethics course would be able to recall that Kant said it is unethical to use people as a means to an end. and not to even get into the hippocratic oath where the first tenet is "do no harm"...

Godfather.

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

in a straight answer to that NO, but I don't know that I find our health care system ethical either..new or old.
and also you are in the medical field right ? you must have a better idea about how experimental medicine works and how it is tested,what do think of the risk to gain factor in medicine ?

Godfather.

in my not so expert opinion, i believe that in experiments on human subjects the ends never justify the means, especially if the subject has no idea what you are injecting them with, in this case a bacterial agent,or that they can be harmed as a result of the experimental methods. these things have to be disclosed. anybody who has ever taken more than a week's worth of an ethics course would be able to recall that Kant said it is unethical to use people as a means to an end. and not to even get into the hippocratic oath where the first tenet is "do no harm"...

XLNT answer, thanks.
it seems like a tough call humans or animals for testing is there another alternative ? a real rock and a hard spot, some would say a million deaths vs. 10 million saved or animal testing vs, human testing..there is no win win.

Godfather.

gimmesometruth27

Godfather. wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

in my not so expert opinion, i believe that in experiments on human subjects the ends never justify the means, especially if the subject has no idea what you are injecting them with, in this case a bacterial agent,or that they can be harmed as a result of the experimental methods. these things have to be disclosed. anybody who has ever taken more than a week's worth of an ethics course would be able to recall that Kant said it is unethical to use people as a means to an end. and not to even get into the hippocratic oath where the first tenet is "do no harm"...

XLNT answer, thanks.
it seems like a tough call humans or animals for testing is there another alternative ? a real rock and a hard spot, some would say a million deaths vs. 10 million saved or animal testing vs, human testing..there is no win win.

Godfather.

then you get into the whole utilitarian school of ethics, where you make your decision based on what will benefit the greatest amount of people and harm the least people. i think that is what happened in these experiments. those doing the research were willing to sacrifice the lives of these subjects in attempt to benefit humanity as a whole. which i do not agree with, because those doing the experiments had no right to sacrifice the health of the subjects without their expressed, informed consent to do so.

animal testing is a whole other issue for me. i don't like animal research because i tend to like animals more than people.

CROJAM95

He should apologize for the 2000 election

Lost popular vote
Brother ran the state
Many variations to the polling system
Elderly people were dooped
Cousin worked for a media group that leaked false reports his cousin George won Florida prior to votes being counted
Supreme court had one more conservative on it, ended up winning by one vote

Look at the coarse the country took after that idiot won, robust economy went to the shitter, 2 out of control wars, torture, letting 9 11 happen( don't blame Clinton, he wasn't president), role back on our rights like a God damn walmart sale, education frowned upon and underfunded, trying to put the 10 commandments up everyones ass just to appeal to evangelicals..... Gays getting dissed, eventhough Cheneys daughter is gay. I could go on for hours on what the previous administration did... But most of us who have a logical mind could figure it out. I'm not sold on Obama for a second term... But don't act like we are worse off? 90% of our problems are thanks to W.

Sorry for getting off subject, but I feel the thread already was hi jacked from talking about an event, to knocking Obama

Godfather.

CROJAM95 wrote:

He should apologize for the 2000 election

Lost popular vote
Brother ran the state
Many variations to the polling system
Elderly people were dooped
Cousin worked for a media group that leaked false reports his cousin George won Florida prior to votes being counted
Supreme court had one more conservative on it, ended up winning by one vote

Look at the coarse the country took after that idiot won, robust economy went to the shitter, 2 out of control wars, torture, letting 9 11 happen( don't blame Clinton, he wasn't president), role back on our rights like a God damn walmart sale, education frowned upon and underfunded, trying to put the 10 commandments up everyones ass just to appeal to evangelicals..... Gays getting dissed, eventhough Cheneys daughter is gay. I could go on for hours on what the previous administration did... But most of us who have a logical mind could figure it out. I'm not sold on Obama for a second term... But don't act like we are worse off? 90% of our problems are thanks to W.

Sorry for getting off subject, but I feel the thread already was hi jacked from talking about an event, to knocking Obama

if you are referring to me..I never said anybody has done a great job as president and as a matter of fact I don't believe obama could have done any better if the economy was in good shape when he got in..he just don't seem to know what he's doing every time I hear him speek..OO wait he dose seem to have apologizing down to brown nose science but so far that's all I have seen.

Godfather.

_

Godfather. wrote:

scb wrote:

For those of us who don't have time to do more research, Godfather, will you please enlighten us about what lies beneath the surface and beyond the internet that could possibly justify what was done and to whom?

I can tell you that you will not find or get all your answers on the net or t.v, thats why I don't understand peoples strong convictions on subjects they have little to no accurate information on.
most of the stuff we talk about has more entertainment value than anything if you don't believe me try reading the "LIBERTY PRESS" I not a obama follower but I still find most of what they print strictly entertainment and thats it.

Godfather.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. What do you think we will find if we look beyond the internet? That this never really happened? Because nothing short of that information would excuse this behavior, whether or not we learned about it on the internet.

Do you believe this really happened? If so, are you actually suggesting that this is acceptable behavior for any reason?

_

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

I'm just tired of seeing this fools only achievements are kissing everybody's ass and saying "I'm sorry".
and really ..you act like the US is a bad place to live and we have ruined the world,do you think the US did this just to attack Guatemala ? please read why it was done and think about the progress that this drug has made in countries all over the world, you have no idea what shitty stuff is,you and people like you sit at home and judge with little to no knowledge of the facts other than what you read on the net..I can 't believe you're that gullible to stand and argue and discredit your own country over a stupid ass Internet article so please save your A through D crap and US bashing for people that only care to see the surface or believe only what the Internet tells them,it's a big world out there and a lot more to it than the BS the net and media tells you..
I thought you might know better than that ?

Godfather.

do you think these experiments were ethical? when you experiment on human beings you have to have their consent and disclose what you are doing to them. that is why every bit of research has to be cleared by the human subjects review at every university. my research had to be cleared by the committe and all i was looking at is whether or not a straight bar bench press recruits more muscle fibers to fire than dumbbell bench press using emg biofeedback. if people carry out research nf diseases like this without human subject consent, then ethically speaking they really are no different than josef mengele.

Shit, I have to spend months of paperwork and human subject reviews and make people sign lengthy consents just to have residents complete a required survey!

pandora

CROJAM95 wrote:

I wonder what we will apologize for, 50-60 years from now? You know some funky shit is going down somewhere

exactly and what have "we" or "they" not fessed up to yet and probably never will

Godfather.

scb wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

scb wrote:

For those of us who don't have time to do more research, Godfather, will you please enlighten us about what lies beneath the surface and beyond the internet that could possibly justify what was done and to whom?

I can tell you that you will not find or get all your answers on the net or t.v, thats why I don't understand peoples strong convictions on subjects they have little to no accurate information on.
most of the stuff we talk about has more entertainment value than anything if you don't believe me try reading the "LIBERTY PRESS" I not a obama follower but I still find most of what they print strictly entertainment and thats it.

Godfather.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. What do you think we will find if we look beyond the internet? That this never really happened? Because nothing short of that information would excuse this behavior, whether or not we learned about it on the internet.

Do you believe this really happened? If so, are you actually suggesting that this is acceptable behavior for any reason?

I didn't offer any justification nor did I say it never happened,point is there is usually more to a story then you will read on the net, if it has anything to do with any government you will only get what any government wants you to hear or read and I would think most people would understand that by now.

Godfather.

_

Godfather. wrote:

scb wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

I can tell you that you will not find or get all your answers on the net or t.v, thats why I don't understand peoples strong convictions on subjects they have little to no accurate information on.
most of the stuff we talk about has more entertainment value than anything if you don't believe me try reading the "LIBERTY PRESS" I not a obama follower but I still find most of what they print strictly entertainment and thats it.

Godfather.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the subject at hand. What do you think we will find if we look beyond the internet? That this never really happened? Because nothing short of that information would excuse this behavior, whether or not we learned about it on the internet.

Do you believe this really happened? If so, are you actually suggesting that this is acceptable behavior for any reason?

I didn't offer any justification nor did I say it never happened,point is there is usually more to a story then you will read on the net, if it has anything to do with any government you will only get what any government wants you to hear or read and I would think most people would understand that by now.

Godfather.

There's nothing else we could learn about this story that would make it acceptable, so I think it's safe to judge based on the information we have. I would think most people would understand that by now.

Godfather.

scb so you will buy any info on its face value then right ?

Godfather.

_

Godfather. wrote:

scb so you will buy any info on its face value then right ?

Godfather.

What the fuck are you talking about? :? I don't think people should be unknowingly injected with syphilis - that's what I'm saying.

Godfather.

scb wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

scb so you will buy any info on its face value then right ?

Godfather.

What the fuck are you talking about? :? I don't think people should be unknowingly injected with syphilis - that's what I'm saying.

always the last word.

Godfather.

_

Godfather. wrote:

scb wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

scb so you will buy any info on its face value then right ?

Godfather.

What the fuck are you talking about? :? I don't think people should be unknowingly injected with syphilis - that's what I'm saying.

always the last word.

Godfather.

You asked me a direct question and then when I respond say it's just because I have to have the last word?? :? :roll:

force-10

In a local paper today, it was mentioned that during this time, kids from a public school were used as subjects to investigate congenital syphillis, by the same doctor Cutler. Most of these kids´ mothers were prostitutes. Another fact: 71 of the 1500 subjects died during the experimentation. No records that implies they were killed by the diseases they were studied for. But it makes you wonder.....

gimmesometruth27

force-10 wrote:

In a local paper today, it was mentioned that during this time, kids from a public school were used as subjects to investigate congenital syphillis, by the same doctor Cutler. Most of these kids´ mothers were prostitutes. Another fact: 71 of the 1500 subjects died during the experimentation. No records that implies they were killed by the diseases they were studied for. But it makes you wonder.....

see what i was saying earlier in the thread? i am willing to bet that none of these risks were disclosed in that study either. but the kids were most likely born with it since it is "congenital". it is a shame that people died during the experiment. maybe they were part of the control group and died from lack of treatment??? it would be interesting to see what the records would have said but they were probably not kept for a reason. i am sure that the researcher's overall attitude was "to make an omelette you gotta break a few eggs"...how sad...

Commy

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

force-10 wrote:

In a local paper today, it was mentioned that during this time, kids from a public school were used as subjects to investigate congenital syphillis, by the same doctor Cutler. Most of these kids´ mothers were prostitutes. Another fact: 71 of the 1500 subjects died during the experimentation. No records that implies they were killed by the diseases they were studied for. But it makes you wonder.....

see what i was saying earlier in the thread? i am willing to bet that none of these risks were disclosed in that study either. but the kids were most likely born with it since it is "congenital". it is a shame that people died during the experiment. maybe they were part of the control group and died from lack of treatment??? it would be interesting to see what the records would have said but they were probably not kept for a reason. i am sure that the researcher's overall attitude was "to make an omelette you gotta break a few eggs"...how sad...

gotta wonder what else they did to this country, if they were so free with experimenting on human subjects.

gimmesometruth27

Commy wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

force-10 wrote:

In a local paper today, it was mentioned that during this time, kids from a public school were used as subjects to investigate congenital syphillis, by the same doctor Cutler. Most of these kids´ mothers were prostitutes. Another fact: 71 of the 1500 subjects died during the experimentation. No records that implies they were killed by the diseases they were studied for. But it makes you wonder.....

see what i was saying earlier in the thread? i am willing to bet that none of these risks were disclosed in that study either. but the kids were most likely born with it since it is "congenital". it is a shame that people died during the experiment. maybe they were part of the control group and died from lack of treatment??? it would be interesting to see what the records would have said but they were probably not kept for a reason. i am sure that the researcher's overall attitude was "to make an omelette you gotta break a few eggs"...how sad...

gotta wonder what else they did to this country, if they were so free with experimenting on human subjects.

i wonder that too, but if they were so free and nonchalant about experimenting on human subjects i am willing to bet that there was nothing they would not have done...

force-10

Guatemalans in office are as guilty as the americans involved in this. I for one, don´t trust any motherfucker here. Some crooked ass politic suit suit on tv giving bags of food to the sick and poor is a load of bullshit. Releasing the bag in the hands of an elderly shoeless lady only after the first couple of camera flashlights. These people need education, health, decent jobs to earn a life, and the security to be able to have property and goods without being harrassed by organized mafia, CIA included.

These experiments were made 2 years after our celebrated democratic revolution. During the first administration of an elected president. Before that, we had dictators. We can´t say these elected ministers were involved, but we can accuse them for fucking up. Obviously, there were CIA agents undercover everywhere here, that could have helped to make projects like this possible. Don´t forget, 8 years later, the revolution was ended with help from the CIA to protect US interests in Guatemala. This shit is a fact.

No one will ever know if our state of poverty, ingnorance, and ultimately, lack of empowered society, would be the same without the involvement of foreign government agencies. The fact is that they were co-authors of our nation´s history, starting from Spain and the rest of Europe, and currently with the United States.