Mosque Moves Forward, Yet Church in Limbo by Mark Impomeni

WaveCameCrashin

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=38462

The battle raging over the Ground Zero mosque is bringing new attention to another, less publicized controversy involving a house of worship in Lower Manhattan.

St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, which once sat right across the street from the World Trade Center, was crushed under the weight of the collapse of Tower Two on September 11, 2001. St. Nicholas was the only church to be lost in the attacks, and nine years later, while City of New York officials are busy removing every impediment to the building of the Cordoba mosque two blocks from the site, St. Nicholas’ future remains unclear.

The last bit of hopeful news for St. Nicholas came two years ago, in July 2008, when church officials and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey announced a deal which would have allowed the church to be rebuilt about two blocks from its original location.

The Port Authority agreed to give the church a parcel of land at Liberty and Greenwich Streets, and contribute $20 million toward construction of a new sanctuary. The Port Authority also agreed to build an explosion-proof platform and foundation for the new church building, which would sit on top of a screening area for cars and trucks entering the underground garages at the new World Trade Center.


Trouble emerged after St. Nicholas announced its plans to build a traditional Greek Orthodox church building, 24,000 square feet in size, topped with a grand dome. Port Authority officials told the church to cut back the size of the building and the height of the proposed dome, limiting it to rising no higher than the World Trade Center memorial. The deal fell apart for goodin March 2009, when the Port Authority abruptly ended the talks after refusing to allow church officials to review plans for the garage and screening area underneath. Sixteen months later, the two sides have still not met to resume negotiations.

St. Nicholas Church’s difficulty in getting approvals to rebuild stands in stark contrast to the treatment that the developers of the proposed Cordoba mosque have received. New York City Mayor Mike Bloomberg, state Atty. Gen. Andrew Cuomo, and a raft of city officials have all come out publicly in favor of building the mosque, and the city’s Landmarks and Preservation Commission recently voted unanimously to deny protection to the building currently occupying the site where the mosque is to be built.

The mosque is proposed to rise 13 stories, far above the height of the World Trade Center memorial, with no height restrictions imposed.

Inspired by former representative Vito Fossella (R-NY), Human Events and RedState.com are sponsoring an online petition calling on New York officials to take action to stop the mosque from being built.

The contrast has not been lost on at least one candidate for Congress. George Demos is a Republican running in New York’s 1st Congressional District. Demos has made the Cordoba mosque an issue in his campaign, even though his district is on Eastern Long Island, and is highlighting the plight of St. Nicholas Church.

In an exclusive interview with Human Events, Demos had harsh words for the Port Authority, which he accuses of blocking the church from being rebuilt. “The Port Authority is a creation of Congress and should be answerable to two states [New York and New Jersey], but in reality is answerable to no one,” Demos said. “The Port Authority is insular and simply doesn’t care about public opinion. They are simply not making this a priority. Chris Ward is the Port Authority director and he is not allowing this to go forward.”

For its part, the Port Authority says it had no choice but to break off negotiations with the church to avoid delaying the World Trade Center project any longer. The authority said that the church retains the right to rebuild on its own at its original location. “We made an extraordinarily generous offer to resolve this issue and spent eight months trying to finalize that offer, and the church wanted even more on top of that,” Stephen Sigmund, a spokesman for the Port Authority said last year. “They have now given us no choice but to move on to ensure the site is not delayed. The church continues to have the right to rebuild at their original site, and we will pay fair market value for the underground space beneath that building.”

Demos said it is the church that has been unjustly delayed. “One place of worship was destroyed in the attacks. That should be the first thing on that board’s agenda. That should be the first priority,” he said. “There were actually relics of St. Nicholas in that church that were lost in the attacks. Why is it that the same government officials who are so ferverently fighting for the mosque’s right to be built aren’t also fighting for the church to be rebuilt.”

Demos was critical of Mayor Bloomberg’s recent comments on the occasion of the Landmarks Commission vote. In a speech immediately following the vote, Bloomberg said, among other arguments, that allowing the mosque project to go forward would be a victory of sorts over the forces that attacked America on 9/11.

“Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11, and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans,” Bloomberg said. “We would betray our values and play into our enemies' hands if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists, and we should not stand for that.”

Demos called those remarks “premature” and echoed New York Republican gubernatorial candidate Rick Lazio’s call for an investigation into the funding of the mosque. “We need to investigate sources of funding for the mosque. If in fact it is being funded by terrorist regimes, then it is the terrorists who are winning by building a mosque at Ground Zero,” Demos said. “Bloomberg’s comments only beg the question of why aren’t we investigating?”

Demos calls his district, currently represented by four-term Democrat Tim Bishop, a bellwether for Republicans in the fall elections. The district is a traditionally Republican seat, which President Obama narrowly won with 51% of the vote in 2008.
While Demos is focusing his campaign on the issues of jobs, government spending, and his opponent’s voting record—which he characterized as out of step with the district—he said that the plight of St. Nicholas Church is resonating with voters.

Recent polling in New York shows that a majority disagrees with the plan to build the mosque so close to Ground Zero.
Asked what prompted him to take up St. Nicholas’s cause, Demos said the apparent favorable treatment the mosque’s developers received served to illuminate the issue to him as simply a question of right versus wrong.

“This is not a partisan issue,” he said. “It’s an issue of fair-minded candidates for office stepping up and doing the right thing. The focus should be something we can all agree on—getting the church rebuilt


I wonder where all the left wing drones and phony constitutionalist are on this ? I wonder where M. Bloomgerg, Obama and A.Quomo are on this. I would love to hear their explanation on this. So I guess jews and christians are second class citizens,particulary true believers in this country and all the secularist and Muslims are first class citizens.
In all seriosness this church had been their prior t sept 11.
If in fact the constituion compels the building of the cordoba project then why do we have any zoning laws at all ? shouldn' a church or a synagog or a place to worship satan be exempt from zoning laws also ? why is that ? Isn't it a violation of the constitution acording to M. Bloomberg if there are any adverse decisions made about the building of a particular religious structure or any where ? Shouldn't they be exempt from all zoning laws ? He sounds like an idiot..
Where are those monuments ? They should have been finished long ago honoring all the people that were Murdered on Sept 11. How is it that politicians and the bureaucrats can move at light speed when it comes to giving a radical imam what he wants,but when it comes to honoring the families and those slaughtered not so fast ?( IMO HE'S A RADICAL BECAUSE HE WONT DENOUNCE HAMAS OR WILL HE SAY THEY ARE A TERRORIST ORGANAZATION.)
How is it that when it comes to this greek orthodox church the same bureaucracies obsrtuct it ?
As long as we have leftist or progressives in positions of authority and power, whether they be elected or on bordes or on commissions this nation will deteriorate from with in. Because the lefts philosophy is not the philosophy of the founding. I find it especially unconscionable,repugnant in fact when people like Bloomberg envokes the constitution that they reject.
Just who is it in this country exactly that tries to undermine those who seek to to practice their reliogion? Who is it that has taken the constituion and turned into a secular document when in fact it's utterly nuetral. It both allows an enviroment of religious practice yet does not create a theocracy.
Who is it that has turned our courts into secular courts. Where they over see every decision at every local state level for daring to put a religious symbol on public land and who makes up phrases like seperaton of church and state ? Then who bend over backwards and never say something like seperation of church and state when it comes to the expedited process it seems to give this imam or muslims what they want ?
You people on the left don't understand the constituion and you sure as hell don't understand the AMERICAN PEOPLE...

inmytree

so the greek orthos get a parcel of land, 20 million bucks, explosion-proof platform and foundation for the new church building, which would sit on top of a screening area for cars and trucks entering the underground garages at the new World Trade Center....and are asked to conform to a height standard...the church chose to argue the height request...deal falls through...

now a community center (some want to call it a mosque) can't be build...you know, because it's going to be full of Muslims...

this makes perfect sense...

satansbed

prfctlefts wrote:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=38462

The battle raging over the Ground Zero mosque is bringing new attention to another, less publicized controversy involving a house of worship in Lower Manhattan.

St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, which once sat right across the street from the World Trade Center, was crushed under the weight of the collapse of Tower Two on September 11, 2001. St. Nicholas was the only church to be lost in the attacks, and nine years later, while City of New York officials are busy removing every impediment to the building of the Cordoba mosque two blocks from the site, St. Nicholas’ future remains unclear.

The last bit of hopeful news for St. Nicholas came two years ago, in July 2008, when church officials and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey announced a deal which would have allowed the church to be rebuilt about two blocks from its original location.

The Port Authority agreed to give the church a parcel of land at Liberty and Greenwich Streets, and contribute $20 million toward construction of a new sanctuary. The Port Authority also agreed to build an explosion-proof platform and foundation for the new church building, which would sit on top of a screening area for cars and trucks entering the underground garages at the new World Trade Center.


Trouble emerged after St. Nicholas announced its plans to build a traditional Greek Orthodox church building, 24,000 square feet in size, topped with a grand dome. Port Authority officials told the church to cut back the size of the building and the height of the proposed dome, limiting it to rising no higher than the World Trade Center memorial. The deal fell apart for goodin March 2009, when the Port Authority abruptly ended the talks after refusing to allow church officials to review plans for the garage and screening area underneath. Sixteen months later, the two sides have still not met to resume negotiations.

St. Nicholas Church’s difficulty in getting approvals to rebuild stands in stark contrast to the treatment that the developers of the proposed Cordoba mosque have received. New York City Mayor Mike Bloomberg, state Atty. Gen. Andrew Cuomo, and a raft of city officials have all come out publicly in favor of building the mosque, and the city’s Landmarks and Preservation Commission recently voted unanimously to deny protection to the building currently occupying the site where the mosque is to be built.

The mosque is proposed to rise 13 stories, far above the height of the World Trade Center memorial, with no height restrictions imposed.

Inspired by former representative Vito Fossella (R-NY), Human Events and RedState.com are sponsoring an online petition calling on New York officials to take action to stop the mosque from being built.

The contrast has not been lost on at least one candidate for Congress. George Demos is a Republican running in New York’s 1st Congressional District. Demos has made the Cordoba mosque an issue in his campaign, even though his district is on Eastern Long Island, and is highlighting the plight of St. Nicholas Church.

In an exclusive interview with Human Events, Demos had harsh words for the Port Authority, which he accuses of blocking the church from being rebuilt. “The Port Authority is a creation of Congress and should be answerable to two states [New York and New Jersey], but in reality is answerable to no one,” Demos said. “The Port Authority is insular and simply doesn’t care about public opinion. They are simply not making this a priority. Chris Ward is the Port Authority director and he is not allowing this to go forward.”

For its part, the Port Authority says it had no choice but to break off negotiations with the church to avoid delaying the World Trade Center project any longer. The authority said that the church retains the right to rebuild on its own at its original location. “We made an extraordinarily generous offer to resolve this issue and spent eight months trying to finalize that offer, and the church wanted even more on top of that,” Stephen Sigmund, a spokesman for the Port Authority said last year. “They have now given us no choice but to move on to ensure the site is not delayed. The church continues to have the right to rebuild at their original site, and we will pay fair market value for the underground space beneath that building.”

Demos said it is the church that has been unjustly delayed. “One place of worship was destroyed in the attacks. That should be the first thing on that board’s agenda. That should be the first priority,” he said. “There were actually relics of St. Nicholas in that church that were lost in the attacks. Why is it that the same government officials who are so ferverently fighting for the mosque’s right to be built aren’t also fighting for the church to be rebuilt.”

Demos was critical of Mayor Bloomberg’s recent comments on the occasion of the Landmarks Commission vote. In a speech immediately following the vote, Bloomberg said, among other arguments, that allowing the mosque project to go forward would be a victory of sorts over the forces that attacked America on 9/11.

“Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11, and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans,” Bloomberg said. “We would betray our values and play into our enemies' hands if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists, and we should not stand for that.”

Demos called those remarks “premature” and echoed New York Republican gubernatorial candidate Rick Lazio’s call for an investigation into the funding of the mosque. “We need to investigate sources of funding for the mosque. If in fact it is being funded by terrorist regimes, then it is the terrorists who are winning by building a mosque at Ground Zero,” Demos said. “Bloomberg’s comments only beg the question of why aren’t we investigating?”

Demos calls his district, currently represented by four-term Democrat Tim Bishop, a bellwether for Republicans in the fall elections. The district is a traditionally Republican seat, which President Obama narrowly won with 51% of the vote in 2008.
While Demos is focusing his campaign on the issues of jobs, government spending, and his opponent’s voting record—which he characterized as out of step with the district—he said that the plight of St. Nicholas Church is resonating with voters.

Recent polling in New York shows that a majority disagrees with the plan to build the mosque so close to Ground Zero.
Asked what prompted him to take up St. Nicholas’s cause, Demos said the apparent favorable treatment the mosque’s developers received served to illuminate the issue to him as simply a question of right versus wrong.

“This is not a partisan issue,” he said. “It’s an issue of fair-minded candidates for office stepping up and doing the right thing. The focus should be something we can all agree on—getting the church rebuilt


I wonder where all the left wing drones and phony constitutionalist are on this ? I wonder where M. Bloomgerg, Obama and A.Quomo are on this. I would love to hear their explanation on this. So I guess jews and christians are second class citizens,particulary true believers in this country and all the secularist and Muslims are first class citizens.
In all seriosness this church had been their prior t sept 11.
If in fact the constituion compels the building of the cordoba project then why do we have any zoning laws at all ? shouldn' a church or a synagog or a place to worship satan be exempt from zoning laws also ? why is that ? Isn't it a violation of the constitution acording to M. Bloomberg if there are any adverse decisions made about the building of a particular religious structure or any where ? Shouldn't they be exempt from all zoning laws ? He sounds like an idiot..
Where are those monuments ? They should have been finished long ago honoring all the people that were Murdered on Sept 11. How is it that politicians and the bureaucrats can move at light speed when it comes to giving a radical imam what he wants,but when it comes to honoring the families and those slaughtered not so fast ?( IMO HE'S A RADICAL BECAUSE HE WONT DENOUNCE HAMAS OR WILL HE SAY THEY ARE A TERRORIST ORGANAZATION.)
How is it that when it comes to this greek orthodox church the same bureaucracies obsrtuct it ?
As long as we have leftist or progressives in positions of authority and power, whether they be elected or on bordes or on commissions this nation will deteriorate from with in. Because the lefts philosophy is not the philosophy of the founding. I find it especially unconscionable,repugnant in fact when people like Bloomberg envokes the constitution that they reject.
Just who is it in this country exactly that tries to undermine those who seek to to practice their reliogion? Who is it that has taken the constituion and turned into a secular document when in fact it's utterly nuetral. It both allows an enviroment of religious practice yet does not create a theocracy.
Who is it that has turned our courts into secular courts. Where they over see every decision at every local state level for daring to put a religious symbol on public land and who makes up phrases like seperaton of church and state ? Then who bend over backwards and never say something like seperation of church and state when it comes to the expedited process it seems to give this imam or muslims what they want ?
You people on the left don't understand the constituion and you sue as hell don't understand the AMERICAN PEOPLE...

this is sad.... this case has nothing to do with the constitution, its a planning thing. its not like new york is saying we don't want Greek Orthodox in our state, its just saying yeah build a church, it just can't be higher than this.... it sounds like your throwing shit at a wall in the hopes that some of it will stick

blackredyellow

Maybe I'm imagining this wrong, and if I am than I apologize....

But from what I've read, the mosque is a couple blocks away, clear and free from the WTC complex...

This Greek Orthodox church (while the article says about two blocks away), clearly is at least adjacent to the WTC complex if there is an underground garage for the WTC below the land given to the church.

If in there area of the mosque, there is height restrictions and they get a pass, then I agree that they shouldn't... but there is clearly a height restriction that to the land that the Port Authority gave to the Greek Orthodox church, and the church doesn't agree with it. And by the way, I guess that your post about tax dollars going to building mosques is now moot, since you didn't say you had a problem with this Greek Orthodox church getting free land and $20 million, right?


And then there is this...

satansbed wrote:

it sounds like your throwing shit at a wall in the hopes that some of it will stick

edit -
Forgive me prfctlefts if you've answered this already, but I've read most of these repetitive threads on this issue and haven't seen it, but where exactly is your geographical cut off where it would be ok to build the mosque? I'm just curious, your only disagreement seems to be with the location of it, where would you be ok putting it?

South of Seattle

blackredyellow wrote:

edit -
Forgive me prfctlefts if you've answered this already, but I've read most of these repetitive threads on this issue and haven't seen it, but where exactly is your geographical cut off where it would be ok to build the mosque? I'm just curious, your only disagreement seems to be with the location of it, where would you be ok putting it?

Probably Kabul

cajunkiwi

prfctlefts wrote:

Who is it that has turned our courts into secular courts. Where they over see every decision at every local state level for daring to put a religious symbol on public land and who makes up phrases like seperaton of church and state ? Then who bend over backwards and never say something like seperation of church and state when it comes to the expedited process it seems to give this imam or muslims what they want ?
You people on the left don't understand the constituion and you sure as hell don't understand the AMERICAN PEOPLE...

Who made up the phrase separation of church and state? I believe that was Thomas Jefferson, who knew a thing or two about the constitution (so I wouldn't call him a 'phony constitutionalist':

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

As for separation of church and state, this church was going to be paid for by the Port Authority (a "creation of Congress" per the article) - as the article states, "The Port Authority agreed to give the church a parcel of land at Liberty and Greenwich Streets, and contribute $20 million toward construction of a new sanctuary. The Port Authority also agreed to build an explosion-proof platform and foundation for the new church building, which would sit on top of a screening area for cars and trucks entering the underground garages at the new World Trade Center."

It sounds to me like the state was bending over backwards to help build the church - the only problem was the height of the dome. As for the church's height relative to the height of the Cordoba building, perhaps there's a rule that anything built adjacent to the memorial cannot be higher than it - after all, the site that the Port Authority was going to GIVE THEM is in the WTC complex (beside 4WTC and the WTC visitor center), while Park 51 is two full blocks away.

gimmesometruth27

prfctlefts wrote:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=38462

The battle raging over the Ground Zero mosque is bringing new attention to another, less publicized controversy involving a house of worship in Lower Manhattan.

St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church, which once sat right across the street from the World Trade Center, was crushed under the weight of the collapse of Tower Two on September 11, 2001. St. Nicholas was the only church to be lost in the attacks, and nine years later, while City of New York officials are busy removing every impediment to the building of the Cordoba mosque two blocks from the site, St. Nicholas’ future remains unclear.

The last bit of hopeful news for St. Nicholas came two years ago, in July 2008, when church officials and the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey announced a deal which would have allowed the church to be rebuilt about two blocks from its original location.

The Port Authority agreed to give the church a parcel of land at Liberty and Greenwich Streets, and contribute $20 million toward construction of a new sanctuary. The Port Authority also agreed to build an explosion-proof platform and foundation for the new church building, which would sit on top of a screening area for cars and trucks entering the underground garages at the new World Trade Center.


Trouble emerged after St. Nicholas announced its plans to build a traditional Greek Orthodox church building, 24,000 square feet in size, topped with a grand dome. Port Authority officials told the church to cut back the size of the building and the height of the proposed dome, limiting it to rising no higher than the World Trade Center memorial. The deal fell apart for goodin March 2009, when the Port Authority abruptly ended the talks after refusing to allow church officials to review plans for the garage and screening area underneath. Sixteen months later, the two sides have still not met to resume negotiations.

St. Nicholas Church’s difficulty in getting approvals to rebuild stands in stark contrast to the treatment that the developers of the proposed Cordoba mosque have received. New York City Mayor Mike Bloomberg, state Atty. Gen. Andrew Cuomo, and a raft of city officials have all come out publicly in favor of building the mosque, and the city’s Landmarks and Preservation Commission recently voted unanimously to deny protection to the building currently occupying the site where the mosque is to be built.

The mosque is proposed to rise 13 stories, far above the height of the World Trade Center memorial, with no height restrictions imposed.

Inspired by former representative Vito Fossella (R-NY), Human Events and RedState.com are sponsoring an online petition calling on New York officials to take action to stop the mosque from being built.

The contrast has not been lost on at least one candidate for Congress. George Demos is a Republican running in New York’s 1st Congressional District. Demos has made the Cordoba mosque an issue in his campaign, even though his district is on Eastern Long Island, and is highlighting the plight of St. Nicholas Church.

In an exclusive interview with Human Events, Demos had harsh words for the Port Authority, which he accuses of blocking the church from being rebuilt. “The Port Authority is a creation of Congress and should be answerable to two states [New York and New Jersey], but in reality is answerable to no one,” Demos said. “The Port Authority is insular and simply doesn’t care about public opinion. They are simply not making this a priority. Chris Ward is the Port Authority director and he is not allowing this to go forward.”

For its part, the Port Authority says it had no choice but to break off negotiations with the church to avoid delaying the World Trade Center project any longer. The authority said that the church retains the right to rebuild on its own at its original location. “We made an extraordinarily generous offer to resolve this issue and spent eight months trying to finalize that offer, and the church wanted even more on top of that,” Stephen Sigmund, a spokesman for the Port Authority said last year. “They have now given us no choice but to move on to ensure the site is not delayed. The church continues to have the right to rebuild at their original site, and we will pay fair market value for the underground space beneath that building.”

Demos said it is the church that has been unjustly delayed. “One place of worship was destroyed in the attacks. That should be the first thing on that board’s agenda. That should be the first priority,” he said. “There were actually relics of St. Nicholas in that church that were lost in the attacks. Why is it that the same government officials who are so ferverently fighting for the mosque’s right to be built aren’t also fighting for the church to be rebuilt.”

Demos was critical of Mayor Bloomberg’s recent comments on the occasion of the Landmarks Commission vote. In a speech immediately following the vote, Bloomberg said, among other arguments, that allowing the mosque project to go forward would be a victory of sorts over the forces that attacked America on 9/11.

“Let us not forget that Muslims were among those murdered on 9/11, and that our Muslim neighbors grieved with us as New Yorkers and as Americans,” Bloomberg said. “We would betray our values and play into our enemies' hands if we were to treat Muslims differently than anyone else. In fact, to cave to popular sentiment would be to hand a victory to the terrorists, and we should not stand for that.”

Demos called those remarks “premature” and echoed New York Republican gubernatorial candidate Rick Lazio’s call for an investigation into the funding of the mosque. “We need to investigate sources of funding for the mosque. If in fact it is being funded by terrorist regimes, then it is the terrorists who are winning by building a mosque at Ground Zero,” Demos said. “Bloomberg’s comments only beg the question of why aren’t we investigating?”

Demos calls his district, currently represented by four-term Democrat Tim Bishop, a bellwether for Republicans in the fall elections. The district is a traditionally Republican seat, which President Obama narrowly won with 51% of the vote in 2008.
While Demos is focusing his campaign on the issues of jobs, government spending, and his opponent’s voting record—which he characterized as out of step with the district—he said that the plight of St. Nicholas Church is resonating with voters.

Recent polling in New York shows that a majority disagrees with the plan to build the mosque so close to Ground Zero.
Asked what prompted him to take up St. Nicholas’s cause, Demos said the apparent favorable treatment the mosque’s developers received served to illuminate the issue to him as simply a question of right versus wrong.

“This is not a partisan issue,” he said. “It’s an issue of fair-minded candidates for office stepping up and doing the right thing. The focus should be something we can all agree on—getting the church rebuilt


I wonder where all the left wing drones and phony constitutionalist are on this ? I wonder where M. Bloomgerg, Obama and A.Quomo are on this. I would love to hear their explanation on this. So I guess jews and christians are second class citizens,particulary true believers in this country and all the secularist and Muslims are first class citizens.
In all seriosness this church had been their prior t sept 11.
If in fact the constituion compels the building of the cordoba project then why do we have any zoning laws at all ? shouldn' a church or a synagog or a place to worship satan be exempt from zoning laws also ? why is that ? Isn't it a violation of the constitution acording to M. Bloomberg if there are any adverse decisions made about the building of a particular religious structure or any where ? Shouldn't they be exempt from all zoning laws ? He sounds like an idiot..
Where are those monuments ? They should have been finished long ago honoring all the people that were Murdered on Sept 11. How is it that politicians and the bureaucrats can move at light speed when it comes to giving a radical imam what he wants,but when it comes to honoring the families and those slaughtered not so fast ?( IMO HE'S A RADICAL BECAUSE HE WONT DENOUNCE HAMAS OR WILL HE SAY THEY ARE A TERRORIST ORGANAZATION.)
How is it that when it comes to this greek orthodox church the same bureaucracies obsrtuct it ?
As long as we have leftist or progressives in positions of authority and power, whether they be elected or on bordes or on commissions this nation will deteriorate from with in. Because the lefts philosophy is not the philosophy of the founding. I find it especially unconscionable,repugnant in fact when people like Bloomberg envokes the constitution that they reject.
Just who is it in this country exactly that tries to undermine those who seek to to practice their reliogion? Who is it that has taken the constituion and turned into a secular document when in fact it's utterly nuetral. It both allows an enviroment of religious practice yet does not create a theocracy.
Who is it that has turned our courts into secular courts. Where they over see every decision at every local state level for daring to put a religious symbol on public land and who makes up phrases like seperaton of church and state ? Then who bend over backwards and never say something like seperation of church and state when it comes to the expedited process it seems to give this imam or muslims what they want ?
You people on the left don't understand the constituion and you sure as hell don't understand the AMERICAN PEOPLE...

how can you continue to get away with such sweeping and judgemental and provocative attacks? i underlined a few parts i took offense to....
as far as the first part, how can you call all people on the left drones, when in this situation they are fighting for the constitutional right for these people to build their cultural center/mosque there. they are adhering to the constitution, and the constitution is on their side, so how can they be "phoney constitutionalists"? and how can you say jews and christians are second class citizens? nobody has ever said that. there are more christians and jews in this country than muslims, so how can they be second class citizens when they are in the majority?

as far as the second part, you call him a radical because that is your opinion of him. that prejudgement is the same thing as if someone on here called you a radical based on their opinion of you.

the third part to me says that because there are progressives on boards that the country will implode from within? that is just a dramatic overstatement of your opinion that the sky is falling. you say the left's philosophy is not the philosophy of the founding fathers, when in the case of this mosque it clearly is. are you advocating repealing the 1st ammendment? what about the 14th? for you to say anyone on the left rejects the constitution is laughable. who wants a constitutional ammendment to ban gay marriage? who wants to re-peal the 14th ammendment? who is on the wrong side on this issue? the answer to all three of those questions are those politicians on the right.

in the last part, you say that we know nothing about the constitution, and that we reject the constitution, and we don't understand the american people. this is based on what exactly?

_

prfctlefts wrote:

Who is it that has taken the constituion and turned into a secular document when in fact it's utterly nuetral.

I don't understand this claim about secularism & neutrality. Are you saying if a document is secular than it is necessarily NOT neutral?

prfctlefts wrote:

You people on the left don't understand the constituion and you sure as hell don't understand the AMERICAN PEOPLE...

How can we not understand the American people when we ARE the American people?? :?

Commy

scb wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

You people on the left don't understand the constituion and you sure as hell don't understand the AMERICAN PEOPLE...

How can we not understand the American people when we ARE the American people?? :?

i think he's talking about 'mmericans'. the people that only follow the constitution when it suits them and think everyone should have a gun.

Smellyman

Commy wrote:

scb wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

You people on the left don't understand the constituion and you sure as hell don't understand the AMERICAN PEOPLE...

How can we not understand the American people when we ARE the American people?? :?

i think he's talking about 'mmericans'. the people that only follow the constitution when it suits them and think everyone should have a gun.

Kinda like the bible...

and as far as the article goes....it has been shot down enough.

WaveCameCrashin

Ok for like the 100th time. FOWLLOW^THE^BOUNCING^BALL... No one is saying they dont' have a right to build it there. It's the location... It's not like there are'nt any Mosque in Manhattan. I think most at least I would if it were like 1/2 a mile from groun zero would be fine with it.. Even the govenor of NY offered them land to build somewhere else and he was going to give them the land. Hasn't the thought crossed anybody's mind as far as why this emam want's to build this mosque/community center right there. Why not somewhere else. I mean look if it were radical christians or Jehovah's witnesse's or even Buddhist I would feel the same way.. IMHO i feel that he is trying to provoke people and I think a lot of people are clearly forgetting the tragedy of 911 and how many people are still grieving.. Alsoi I feel that we have been more tolerant than anybody when it comes muslims.
Just look at that highschool in Dearborn where they are having football practice from 1:00 am to 4:00 am to cater to the Muslim players because it's ramadan .Muslims are not allowed to eat or drink during the day for the 30 days of Ramadan. I mean you could look at it like it's a way to hot during the day becuase of record heat in Michigan,but give me a break. You think they would do this for any other religion ? I wouldn't bet on it. If they have then I would love to hear about it.

FiveB247x

Why does there have to be a radius for which some group can build a center?? Let's be honest, ground zero and the surrounding area are not some sort of memorial, even if you'd like to make it into such things. There's gonna be all sorts of buildings and developments there in the next decade.. but I guess it's just easier to ignore that and say it's out of respect or some type of nonsensical answer which tries to evoke emotion to a dead issue? Memorials, speeches and remembrances only hold real meaning if they represent what you do as follow through as a result. Maybe when our nation figures that part out, we won't be discussing silly issues like this one.

prfctlefts wrote:

Ok for like the 100th time. FOWLLOW^THE^BOUNCING^BALL... No one is saying they dont' have a right to build it there. It's the location... It's not like there are'nt any Mosque in Manhattan. I think most at least I would if it were like 1/2 a mile from groun zero would be fine with it.. Even the govenor of NY offered them land to build somewhere else and he was going to give them the land. Hasn't the thought crossed anybody's mind as far as why this emam want's to build this mosque/community center right there. Why not somewhere else. I mean look if it were radical christians or Jehovah's witnesse's or even Buddhist I would feel the same way.. IMHO i feel that he is trying to provoke people and I think a lot of people are clearly forgetting the tragedy of 911 and how many people are still grieving.. Alsoi I feel that we have been more tolerant than anybody when it comes muslims.
Just look at that highschool in Dearborn where they are having football practice from 1:00 am to 4:00 am to cater to the Muslim players because it's ramadan .Muslims are not allowed to eat or drink during the day for the 30 days of Ramadan. I mean you could look at it like it's a way to hot during the day becuase of record heat in Michigan,but give me a break. You think they would do this for any other religion ? I wouldn't bet on it. If they have then I would love to hear about it.

satansbed

prfctlefts wrote:

Ok for like the 100th time. FOWLLOW^THE^BOUNCING^BALL... No one is saying they dont' have a right to build it there. It's the location... It's not like there are'nt any Mosque in Manhattan. I think most at least I would if it were like 1/2 a mile from groun zero would be fine with it.. Even the govenor of NY offered them land to build somewhere else and he was going to give them the land. Hasn't the thought crossed anybody's mind as far as why this emam want's to build this mosque/community center right there. Why not somewhere else. I mean look if it were radical christians or Jehovah's witnesse's or even Buddhist I would feel the same way.. IMHO i feel that he is trying to provoke people and I think a lot of people are clearly forgetting the tragedy of 911 and how many people are still grieving.. Alsoi I feel that we have been more tolerant than anybody when it comes muslims.
Just look at that highschool in Dearborn where they are having football practice from 1:00 am to 4:00 am to cater to the Muslim players because it's ramadan .Muslims are not allowed to eat or drink during the day for the 30 days of Ramadan. I mean you could look at it like it's a way to hot during the day becuase of record heat in Michigan,but give me a break. You think they would do this for any other religion ? I wouldn't bet on it. If they have then I would love to hear about it.

your still throwing shit at a wall in the hopes that something will stick... it seems thats all you do

WaveCameCrashin

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

how can you say jews and christians are second class citizens? nobody has ever said that. there are more christians and jews in this country than muslims, so how can they be second class citizens when they are in the majority?

We are treated like second class citizens when it comes to christianity in a public forum
christians and jews espeicially true believers are mocked all the time even on the MT. There are thousands of examples..

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

you say the left's philosophy is not the philosophy of the founding fathers, when in the case of this mosque it clearly is.

Yeah well maybe in this case for once..

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

are you advocating repealing the 1st ammendment? what about the 14th? for you to say anyone on the left rejects the constitution is laughable. who wants a constitutional ammendment to ban gay marriage? who wants to re-peal the 14th ammendment? who is on the wrong side on this issue? the answer to all three of those questions are those politicians on the right.

who said anything about repealing the first amendment ?As far as gay marriage goes, Im a live and let live kind of person but I think the the word Marriage should be between a man and a woman. What's wrong with a civil union with all the same benefits of being married ? As far as the 14th amendment goes Just because you have a baby here and you are here illegally doesn't mean that child is automatically a citizen. That's absured..

And the whole idea that the constituion is a living and breating document is also absurd. If that were the case it's dead.

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

in the last part, you say that we know nothing about the constitution, and that we reject the constitution, and we don't understand the american people. this is based on what exactly?

It's not that you don't know anything about the constituion,it goes bak to the whole idea of living and breathing. Is your car loan living and breathing ?
Words have meanings not interpretations..
The Constitution is a set of rules, and like any other set of rules, it is meant to be strict and uncompromising. Of course, the Constitution can be modified through the amendment process, but once ratified, any amendment becomes like the rest of the Constitution: rigid.

FiveB247x

prfctlefts - what the hell are you talking about? In almost every facet of our society we have molded so many issues and policies because of religion - in particular Christianity. Not sure what world you live, but in our nation, the Bible and Christianity have been shoved down the throat of society far more than anything you could claim about any other religion. Perhaps you should recognize this fact before going off the deep end about muslims and islam.

81

this is so stupid, just build the stupid things if you want. don't we have real issues to worry about

gimmesometruth27

FiveB247x wrote:

prfctlefts - what the hell are you talking about? In almost every facet of our society we have molded so many issues and policies because of religion - in particular Christianity. Not sure what world you live, but in our nation, the Bible and Christianity have been shoved down the throat of society far more than anything you could claim about any other religion. Perhaps you should recognize this fact before going off the deep end about muslims and islam.

is he really comparing the constitution to a car loan??

:? :?

Cosmo

prfctlefts wrote:

It's not that you don't know anything about the constituion,it goes bak to the whole idea of living and breathing. Is your car loan living and breathing ?
Words have meanings not interpretations..
The Constitution is a set of rules, and like any other set of rules, it is meant to be strict and uncompromising. Of course, the Constitution can be modified through the amendment process, but once ratified, any amendment becomes like the rest of the Constitution: rigid.

...
You seriously need to go back to your High School Government class... and pay attention this time.
The reason WHY there is an Amendment process is to CHANGE the Constitution to fit changing times. In 1776, the British Army could take over your property to quarter their troops. This is why the 3rd Amendment prohibits this... it was very important to the landowners of 1776 who drafted the Constitution.
...
And like someone else asked... really? A Car Loan?
Work on your metaphors, too.

_

prfctlefts wrote:

Im a live and let live kind of person but I think the the word Marriage should be between a man and a woman.

My, what a big but you have!

blackredyellow

scb wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

Im a live and let live kind of person but I think the the word Marriage should be between a man and a woman.

My, what a big but you have!

funny how there can such a big contradiction in the same sentence...

He's basically saying that :"I'm a live and let live kind of person, except when you want to do things I don't agree with..."


Freedom of religion! Except you can't build a mosque where I don't want you to...

cajunkiwi

scb wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

Im a live and let live kind of person but I think the the word Marriage should be between a man and a woman.

My, what a big but you have!

He only wants the word to come between them... maybe he prefers "manbutwoman" - wouldn't that be a hermaphrodite or transvestite (could both be described as manbutwoman)?