Afgan War Wikileaks

polaris_x

Cosmo wrote:

The thing about Afghanistan... all you really need to do is apply a little simple logic to the equation.
First, looks at some of the facts:
A. The Taliban was originally set up by Pakistan's ISI (CIA equivilent) after the Soviet withdrawal to establish a nation founded in Shria Law.
B. Usama was the most popular name given to Pakistani males born after September 11, 2001.
C. Afghanistan's most lucrative export was Opium.
D. Afghanistan was basically run by tribal warlords selling opium.
...
With those things in mind... The U.S. shipped billions of dollars and tons of weapons into Pakistan, specifically President Musharaff, who rose to power in a military coup to overthrow a democratically elected leader. Now, maybe Musharaff wanted to get Usama bin Laden... but, do you think the Pakistani foot soldiers who named their kids Usama that were tasked to capturing Bin laden... were looking real hard to find him?
And what about the Afghani troops we are trainning? What do you think they will do when they are placed under the command of former Afghani opium warlords who have been promoted to officer's ranks in the Afghan security forces?
And did we REALLY believe that we could convince opium warlords to stop growing lucrative opium... in favor of growing wheat and corn... that would have to compete with the U.S. in wheat and corn exports? I mean, what is does a kilo of corn go for on the black market... is it more than a kilo of heroin?
...
Now... we act all surprized to discover that the ISI is funding insurgents to fight our troops... with money and weapons.... supplied BY THE U.S!!!
We enlist opium warlords to fight the Taliban and reward them with government and military positions... then are shocked when they expand their opium trade.
...
What I want to know... WHO were the advisors to former President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld and Secretary of State Rice on all of this? And why did these people listen to them? Didn't any of them know all of these things? Why were these thing considered to be classified?
My guess... to keep us from knowing how fucked up that place is. All we hear about is how great things are going... about a girl's school opening and has an enrollment of 37 students... but, not that our troops are going out on patrols with former Taliban fighters.
...
Time to accept the monumental miscaclulation on the part of our civilian and military leadership and bring our troops home.

what I would like to know is why people think this was a miscalculation!?? ... do you know how much money has been made by the private sector on these wars ... people STILL think the assholes who govern actually do so in the interests of the people!?? ...

Jason P

I know this isn't the popular sentiment on this board, but I believe that whoever is responsible for leaking top-secret and confidential reports should be tried for treason and espionage.

FiveB247x

This is a tough issue but I tend to agree more than not. There's a right and wrong way to go about and do things. And people will excuse it solely because they agree with what's being leaked compared to the opposite (think Scooter Libby). With such sensitive information that can directly effect people's safety and livelihood, it's not a good or smart practice.

Jason P wrote:

I know this isn't the popular sentiment on this board, but I believe that whoever is responsible for leaking top-secret and confidential reports should be tried for treason and espionage.

polaris_x

Jason P wrote:

I know this isn't the popular sentiment on this board, but I believe that whoever is responsible for leaking top-secret and confidential reports should be tried for treason and espionage.

i would say there are definitely instances ... such as valerie plame ... but all in all ... i don't believe the release of the copter killings warrant criminal charge on the whistleblower ...

at the end of the day - the biggest barrier to safety is the decisions the hawks in the white house make ...

fuck

Jason P wrote:

I know this isn't the popular sentiment on this board, but I believe that whoever is responsible for leaking top-secret and confidential reports should be tried for treason and espionage.

because it puts American lives in danger? I guess we should put Obama on trial for putting 100,000 US soldiers' lives in danger by sending them to Afghanistan

Jason P

_outlaw wrote:

Jason P wrote:

I know this isn't the popular sentiment on this board, but I believe that whoever is responsible for leaking top-secret and confidential reports should be tried for treason and espionage.

because it puts American lives in danger? I guess we should put Obama on trial for putting 100,000 US soldiers' lives in danger by sending them to Afghanistan

Putting American, Iraqi, and Afghani lives in danger is a good reason they should be tried but it is not the primary reason. The primary reason is that confidential information was stolen without authorization and provided to both friendly and unfriendly nations.

Cosmo

Jason P wrote:

I know this isn't the popular sentiment on this board, but I believe that whoever is responsible for leaking top-secret and confidential reports should be tried for treason and espionage.

...
Is it treason to make available information the Government does not want the American people to hear... or is it treasonous for the U.S. government to hide the truth about what is happening in a war zone where American soldiers are at risk?
If the former is the case... then the person or persons who made available the information of Pat Tillman's death in Afghanistan should also be considered traitors. Because the Pat Tillman story (as told by the Government) was originally a positive aspect of the war effort... even though, none of it was true.

Cosmo

Jason P wrote:

Putting American, Iraqi, and Afghani lives in danger is a good reason they should be tried but it is not the primary reason. The primary reason is that confidential information was stolen without authorization and provided to both friendly and unfriendly nations.

...
The information leaked was stuff we already pretty much knew about...
The Pakistani ISI funding Taliban insurgents... the Karzai administration's ties to opium cartels... the unreliable Afghan soldiers... the civilian deaths at the hands of U.S./NATO troops. As for information to unfriendly nations... I'm pretty sure Pakistan already knows they are helping the insurgents while taking in U.S. tax dollars and Afghan President Karzai already knows about his opium business. And Yes... you can put Afghanistan in the list of nations who are not on friendly terms with America.
The reports just verify what the foriegn press has been writing about for years, but the American people didn't want to hear.

StillHere

Cosmo wrote:

Jason P wrote:

I know this isn't the popular sentiment on this board, but I believe that whoever is responsible for leaking top-secret and confidential reports should be tried for treason and espionage.

...
Is it treason to make available information the Government does not want the American people to hear... or is it treasonous for the U.S. government to hide the truth about what is happening in a war zone where American soldiers are at risk?
If the former is the case... then the person or persons who made available the information of Pat Tillman's death in Afghanistan should also be considered traitors. Because the Pat Tillman story (as told by the Government) was originally a positive aspect of the war effort... even though, none of it was true.

IMO the VOTING public who elect their constituents to either condone or condemn this or any other aggressive or protective action upon the part of our military, should be allowed the details of the facts as regards what has already happened in the course of any military endeavor.
having said that...i do NOT believe that it is in the best interest of our country, our military men and women, OR our people, to know what is about to happen BEFORE It happens or during the time that it is happening. This approach would endanger lives and more.
The facts of the matter after ward are a horse of a different color and we are owed the TRUTH....
TRUTH is a word that has been long lost on our government and those whom we elect to uphold the TRUTH
unfortunately

Cosmo

StillHere wrote:

IMO the VOTING public who elect their constituents to either condone or condemn this or any other aggressive or protective action upon the part of our military, should be allowed the details of the facts as regards what has already happened in the course of any military endeavor.
having said that...i do NOT believe that it is in the best interest of our country, our military men and women, OR our people, to know what is about to happen BEFORE It happens or during the time that it is happening. This approach would endanger lives and more.
The facts of the matter after ward are a horse of a different color and we are owed the TRUTH....
TRUTH is a word that has been long lost on our government and those whom we elect to uphold the TRUTH
unfortunately

..
Exactly. There were not battle plans, stratagies or tactics. They were summary reports from the field filed by our troops as to what had already happened.
Secrets such as the payload/operational envelope of a developmental tactical fighter/bomber needs to be protected from us and everyone else in the world because that would allow adversaries to develops weapons and tactics to defeat the aircraft and kill its crew. If I do not need to know... I shouldn't be available to that information. i can accept that.
But, past events with no intelligence tied in... kept classified because it reveals events that would be an embarassment to the Washington and Pentagon bureaucrats... the American people should know what these elected politcians have gotten us into.

Jason P

Cosmo wrote:

StillHere wrote:

IMO the VOTING public who elect their constituents to either condone or condemn this or any other aggressive or protective action upon the part of our military, should be allowed the details of the facts as regards what has already happened in the course of any military endeavor.
having said that...i do NOT believe that it is in the best interest of our country, our military men and women, OR our people, to know what is about to happen BEFORE It happens or during the time that it is happening. This approach would endanger lives and more.
The facts of the matter after ward are a horse of a different color and we are owed the TRUTH....
TRUTH is a word that has been long lost on our government and those whom we elect to uphold the TRUTH
unfortunately

..
Exactly. There were not battle plans, stratagies or tactics. They were summary reports from the field filed by our troops as to what had already happened.
Secrets such as the payload/operational envelope of a developmental tactical fighter/bomber needs to be protected from us and everyone else in the world because that would allow adversaries to develops weapons and tactics to defeat the aircraft and kill its crew. If I do not need to know... I shouldn't be available to that information. i can accept that.
But, past events with no intelligence tied in... kept classified because it reveals events that would be an embarassment to the Washington and Pentagon bureaucrats... the American people should know what these elected politcians have gotten us into.

I'll bet the Russians and Chinese disagree with that assessment (especially the poor bastards they assigned to break everything down).

If I was Ahmadinejad, I would be making a data base that tracks everything, no matter how irrelevant in the report. You could essentially learn a lot about troop movements, behavior, roadblocks, special ops, and general strategy.

I do understand that these reports come from the lowest security clearance but that doesn't make it right. Bradley Manning is finding this out the hard way.

StillHere

I'll bet the Russians and Chinese disagree with that assessment

you DO realize, that in this particular sense
the American people are not in a much better position
that the citizenship of those countries you mention

you DO realize that we are just as shut out regarding our government
as they are
right?

Cosmo

Jason P wrote:

I'll bet the Russians and Chinese disagree with that assessment (especially the poor bastards they assigned to break everything down).

If I was Ahmadinejad, I would be making a data base that tracks everything, no matter how irrelevant in the report. You could essentially learn a lot about troop movements, behavior, roadblocks, special ops, and general strategy.

I do understand that these reports come from the lowest security clearance but that doesn't make it right. Bradley Manning is finding this out the hard way.

...
Wait a minute... so you are saying that is okay for the government to keep secrets from the American people, specifically reports that are embarrassing to to our leadership? You are okay with that?
And you mention China, Russia and iran... do you understand... that is their practice... to keep information that is embarrassing to the government away from their people? Maybe, we would be safer if we were more like China, Russian and Iran regarding government secrets and let the government decide what we should and shouldn't know.
...
Add: All the great military strategists don't plan future battleplans on past battles. They know the enemy's strengths and attack their weakneses. Our military strategists would be really, REALLY stupid to form habits and make our movements predictable.
...
Add-add: And so what if Ahmejinidaddy-o has a database of crap that he can read about in the London Times? A database of crap is going to do what?

StillHere

Like I said

fuck

Jason P wrote:

_outlaw wrote:

Jason P wrote:

I know this isn't the popular sentiment on this board, but I believe that whoever is responsible for leaking top-secret and confidential reports should be tried for treason and espionage.

because it puts American lives in danger? I guess we should put Obama on trial for putting 100,000 US soldiers' lives in danger by sending them to Afghanistan

Putting American, Iraqi, and Afghani lives in danger is a good reason they should be tried but it is not the primary reason. The primary reason is that confidential information was stolen without authorization and provided to both friendly and unfriendly nations.

so because the information is marked 'confidential' by our government, that makes it justified to keep it that way? there is no reasonable justification for our government to keep this information hidden from us. the only way you can argue that the information should not have been leaked is if you give a reason WHY that is. that reason can't just be "the government said we can't see it so we can't see it." i guess if a govt official took a shit in a bag and marked it confidential then whoever leaks it to the public should be tried for treason??

South of Seattle

I like how Admiral Mullen says the founder of Wikileaks may have blood on his hands.

And the Government starting these wars don't? :roll:

gimmesometruth27

South of Seattle wrote:

I like how Admiral Mullen says the founder of Wikileaks may have blood on his hands.

And the Government starting these wars don't? :roll:

very nicely stated.....my sentiments exactly...so we go after and prosecute leakers and whistleblowers while those that are really guilty of causing this madness are never held to account for anything by anyone...

South of Seattle

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

South of Seattle wrote:

I like how Admiral Mullen says the founder of Wikileaks may have blood on his hands.

And the Government starting these wars don't? :roll:

very nicely stated.....my sentiments exactly...so we go after and prosecute leakers and whistleblowers while those that are really guilty of causing this madness are never held to account for anything by anyone...

It's like the military lives in a fantasy world.

Jason P

_outlaw wrote:

Jason P wrote:

Putting American, Iraqi, and Afghani lives in danger is a good reason they should be tried but it is not the primary reason. The primary reason is that confidential information was stolen without authorization and provided to both friendly and unfriendly nations.

so because the information is marked 'confidential' by our government, that makes it justified to keep it that way? there is no reasonable justification for our government to keep this information hidden from us. the only way you can argue that the information should not have been leaked is if you give a reason WHY that is. that reason can't just be "the government said we can't see it so we can't see it." i guess if a govt official took a shit in a bag and marked it confidential then whoever leaks it to the public should be tried for treason??

It could be instructions to make a peanut butter and jelly, but if it is classified information then you risk being tried for espionage. I shouldn't have included "treason" in my first post as I've learned committing treason involves: "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort" (article 3, section 3, US Constitution).

In Bradley Manning's case, he will most likely face a military tribunal as well.

I'm not trying to look at this from a heartless perspective. Is it fair based on the content he released on this particular incident with the reporter? Probably not. But the ACLU argues for a bunch of idiotic people in the name of civil liberties all the time. The military will take a similar approach (i.e. "slippery slope").

heidimarie5857

History really does repeat itself. Similar things have happened before so why haven't we learned a lesson? It's time that we, the people, the voters, educate ourselves enough so that we know what's going on (past and present) so that we can change the direction we are going. War is not the answer America!