Why buy if not to enjoy?! Is it not scalping?!

Ty

Just want to get a few people's opinions on this train of thought. And, saying that, it is a train of thought only, so no attacking (hahaha).

I buy vinyl ad want a few vinyl to acctually listen to. Not to buy them when they come out, keep them sealed, then sell them to someone in a few years for a ridiculous amount of money, which drives up the price for people like myself who want to enjoy the record and have no plans on hiding it away to again make money off it. Similarity to scalping, yes?!

I have a few "holy grail" items like the Epic release of "Live In Atlanta" (given to me by a sweet friend), Epic release of "Rarefied And Live" (won from Triple J radio), "Live On Two Legs"vinyl and the first pressings of "Vs" and "Vitalogy" on vinyl. All get played, a lot!

Now I want to try get a few of the albums i don't have, look on eBay, all priced well over $100, and what is annoying is they are all sealed and as new... meaning someone bought them to make money off them. Or if someone just happened to not getting around to playing it, they shoudl sell it for a price that represents inflation... $20 in 1996 should mean about $30 now, if not the same!

Same goes with poster collectors for the sake of storing and re-selling. Scalpers of a different kind. I have a few prints (every show I have been to), all framed and hanging on display. I bought the only one I didn't get personally at a show (Sydney 1998) from a dude who had it in a tube since then, for $400. It was my "holy grail" and completed my collection, so I paid it. But seriously... is this not scalping, and keeping things from fans who want to enjoy, look at, listen to a product from their favourite band?

I have seen on another thread, people buying multiple copies of "Amongst The Waves". If anyone can justify that to me besides wanting to make money by making it harder for people who want one to get one, go ahead. Even a completist collector only needs 1 copy of everything.

Thanks for listening!

mookeywrench

I was at the Benaroya Hall show and became ecstatic when I heard they were going to release it on vinyl.

So I woke up and purchased the vinyl at midnight PCT, then went back to bed. Woke up the next morning and came on the board and there was a bunch of hoopla about the vinyl being sold out and angry ten clubbers not even getting a shot at purchasing the album....all the now normal stuff that occurs when something limited goes on sale.

Next thing, the album shows up on my door and I find it selling on Ebay for large amounts of money. Originally, I had all intentions of playing it, but when it became a collector's item in that short time-span, I rationalized to keep it sealed and hold onto it.

Having attended the show, I know what it was like to have actually been there and no vinyl is going to better recreate that moment. So, I'm fine with holding onto it sealed and waiting for a time to get rid of it when something else I want comes my way.

If the market price of the album drops back down to $45, then I'll crack it open and give it a spin. Till then, I have the CD along with memories of being there to tide me over.

Not everyone out there is a flipper. Some people are just at the right place at the right time and have different priorities in life.

Ty

Understand, totally. Just don't see the point in enjoying something. You know you will make a mint out that box-set because it's sealed though. Just don't know I would feel comfortable selling it for $1,000+ to a fan/collector when it only cost $45 to start with. I understand that you should be compensated for keeping it in a great condisiton and storing it, plus inflation, but these prices are crazy!

It's almost like watching kidsplay with toys... I'm not playing with it anymore, but it's my toy so you can't play with it. Know what I mean?

I'm not having a go at you at all, just kinda trying to undertsand and create a bit of discussion amongst fans and collectors. Prices are getting ridiculous, and as fans, who want people to access Pearl Jam and not be frustrated by trying to find a record, we owe it to ourselves to discuss it.

in_the_mud

Both of you are right, kind of... but I am totally with Ty.
I had exactly the same thoughts about it reading "Amongst The Waves numbers" thread. That's true I can't find the other reason in having 5-15 copies of the same 45 than making money.
I'm glad you said that.

mookeywrench

As far as price is concerned, the final sale is going to be an arm's length agreement. If the fan really wants to shell out that much money for the album then I will happily sell it for that much. The worth and value of money is all relative. $1000+ to someone earning $60K - $150 per year who's living withing their means may not be a big issue to them.

I'm not going to twist anyone's arm to sell the album, it's just going to be sold at market value. So are the prices crazy? or are the people paying for these prices crazy?

The kid's toy analogy doesn't work for me because of ownership versus borrowing something. I don't know about you but when my friends/siblings wanted by toys I would share the toy with them and let them play it, but I wouldn't let them take home the toy and be the new owner of it. And when I shared the toy I would expect it back in the same condition that it started in or else I would be pissed.

That being said, if anyone wants to come over and look at my sealed vinyl, you're welcome to, since that would be sharing like kids do.

all in all, if you feel the price is above market price, then don't purchase it and create and efficiency within the market.

mookeywrench

in_the_mud wrote:

Both of you are right, kind of... but I am totally with Ty.
I had exactly the same thoughts about it reading "Amongst The Waves numbers" thread. That's true I can't find the other reason in having 5-15 copies of the same 45 than making money.
I'm glad you said that.

Well it obviously is about taking advantage of an arbitrage opportunity, but that is still allowed. They were able to find something selling below the market value and they were able to purchase them.

Whether or not they should do it, is a different story. but again, it's all relative. If they're not a huge Pearl Jam fan, if they don't give a damn about the the music or the Pearl Jam community or their ten club membership then it's their right to flip. Just as it is your right and free will to not purchase from that seller. Buyer beware.

Is it more selfish for someone to look out for themselves and make a quick buck or for someone to say you can't own that because you're not using it how I want you to use it?

Ty

Not saying that exactly.

And I'm not saying that we couldn't do the same thing, but when you see someone have 10 copies of Amongst The Waves, you really wanna ask them why. The spirit of this community has always been supportive and encouraging and strong. But I doubt many people outside the TenClub/forums would actually chase down a copy of Benny or Amongst The Waves or whatever, so you are being ripped of by a fellow community member, which is my gripe.

Have I watched an Ames print I listed on eBay shoot higher and higher? Yes. Did I list it for more than it cost me? No. Have I bought items that I no longer have the passion for and believe I should sell them? Yes. Have I bought items solely to flip them? No. Do I see a point in having a vinyl in the shrink-wrap? No. A vinyl collector plays records, a lot.

mookeywrench

So in your view, being part of the ten club community and letting that spirit prosper is worth more than earning a quick buck by flipping merch.

In someone elses view it isn't. C'est la vie.

More people tend have the first view point which has been proven time and time again. And in my view it's worth being a part of which is why I won't be flipping items on Ebay. But I don't think its my job to police others who do.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

I agree on both sides as well. I don't disagree with someone selling something for market value. If that's the price, if I want it that bad, I'll pay it. It SUCKS BIG TIME that eventually I'll have to pay an arm and a leg to buy a Benny Hall, as I wasn't in the club back then, but hey, that's life.

But it DOES piss me off that I see the same seller on eBay with multiple copies of something. I don't buy shit to sell it. I buy it to have it and enjoy it. I don't understand the whole "vinyl sealed" thing either. I couldn't care less if a PJ vinyl I bought was sealed. I'm going to open it to play it anyway, so as long as it's in good condition, that's all that matters.

I own nothing that I haven't used. I respect someone's right to collect something and keep it in pristine/sealed condition, I just don't personally understand the point of it.

mookeywrench

Billy Pumpkin wrote:

I own nothing that I haven't used. I respect someone's right to collect something and keep it in pristine/sealed condition, I just don't personally understand the point of it.

Can you say you respect something in one half of a sentence and then say you don't understand the point of it in the next half? It seems to contradict itself.

Or maybe the better question is why hold something in high regard if you see no point to it?

Hugh Freaking Dillon

I can respect someone's right to do a lot of things, doesn't mean I'd do it myself. I never said I "held it in high regard". I said I respect their right to do so. That's all.

mookeywrench wrote:

Billy Pumpkin wrote:

I own nothing that I haven't used. I respect someone's right to collect something and keep it in pristine/sealed condition, I just don't personally understand the point of it.

Can you say you respect something in one half of a sentence and then say you don't understand the point of it in the next half? It seems to contradict itself.

Or maybe the better question is why hold something in high regard if you see no point to it?

Ty

Point of the matter is, flipping is bull-shit. Putting stuff up for sale on auction sites at a high start price is bull-shit... true market value will be realized only if people are given a chance to bid on it. You see No Code go for $60-$70 sometimes... true market value maybe. But look on their now and you see starting prices of $200+, which is... bull-shit.

Now, let's all be friends again.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

you see outrageous prices on eBay all the time, doesn't mean people pay it. No one in their right mind is paying $200 for No Code at this point. I see cd's I can buy in the store for $12 on eBay for $25+ all the time. I don't get why people do that, who the fuck is going to buy that when it's readily available at half the price?

Bottom line, is, Ty, no offense, but this is nothing more than people who don't have an endless supply of cash (us) complaining that we can't afford something we didn't buy when we could have afforded it. We missed the proverbial boat. It sucks, but it's the way it is. I paid $100 for a poster for the Fargo 2003 show that I didn't buy at the show itself. I'm going to "ruin" it by block mounting it. I COULD keep it stored in a cold room for 20 years and then try to sell it, but I want to see it hanging on my wall. Some people don't care about that, and that's fine. I do, and that's what's important. If you want Benny Hall so bad, start saving $10 a week. In no time flat you'll find yourself bidding on one. Or buying one on here the next time someone needs money for the next PJ tour!

Ty wrote:

Point of the matter is, flipping is bull-shit. Putting stuff up for sale on auction sites at a high start price is bull-shit... true market value will be realized only if people are given a chance to bid on it. You see No Code go for $60-$70 sometimes... true market value maybe. But look on their now and you see starting prices of $200+, which is... bull-shit.

Now, let's all be friends again.

Ty

Billy Pumpkin wrote:

If you want Benny Hall so bad, start saving $10 a week. In no time flat you'll find yourself bidding on one. Or buying one on here the next time someone needs money for the next PJ tour!

mookeywrench

Ty wrote:

Point of the matter is, flipping is bull-shit. Putting stuff up for sale on auction sites at a high start price is bull-shit... true market value will be realized only if people are given a chance to bid on it. You see No Code go for $60-$70 sometimes... true market value maybe. But look on their now and you see starting prices of $200+, which is... bull-shit.

Now, let's all be friends again.

I agree with Billy Pumpkin on this one. Ture market value is realized when a final sale is made, not during the bidding process.

My3rdEye

Some people buy multiple copies of an item to later use in a trade as well. It's not always to 'flip'. If I buy a vinyl I'm buying it to play it in most cases but I do have a few that I intend to use in trades at some point.

redrock

Like any other items that are potentially collectibles, PJ stuff (vinyl/posters, etc.) are a commodity. Some will see it as such and invest at the beginning with a hope of a return. Nothing wrong with that. I have a friend who bought a Lichtenstein right at the beginning of his 'career' (not sure it had really started yet) for peanuts. There was already a bit of a buzz around him so my friend saw 'potential' and invested in this artist. He kept this piece secure (not hanging on a wall) for years and years and got a pretty damn good return on it. This is no different to those buying PJ stuff 'for the future'. One enjoys it, just in a different way! The demand makes these collectibles. Naturally, as these are limited, some will be frustrated at not getting their hands on stuff, but that's the way it goes. Even if 'collectors' did not buy as investment, there would still not be enough for everyone and there would still be frustration.

dwhite76

mookeywrench wrote:

As far as price is concerned, the final sale is going to be an arm's length agreement. If the fan really wants to shell out that much money for the album then I will happily sell it for that much. The worth and value of money is all relative. $1000+ to someone earning $60K - $150 per year who's living withing their means may not be a big issue to them.

I'm not going to twist anyone's arm to sell the album, it's just going to be sold at market value. So are the prices crazy? or are the people paying for these prices crazy?

The kid's toy analogy doesn't work for me because of ownership versus borrowing something. I don't know about you but when my friends/siblings wanted by toys I would share the toy with them and let them play it, but I wouldn't let them take home the toy and be the new owner of it. And when I shared the toy I would expect it back in the same condition that it started in or else I would be pissed.

That being said, if anyone wants to come over and look at my sealed vinyl, you're welcome to, since that would be sharing like kids do.

all in all, if you feel the price is above market price, then don't purchase it and create and efficiency within the market.

Why stop at vinyls and posters and toys. Can houses be put into this conversation. I feel the same way. I love to collect Pearl Jam stuff. I have a life and cant wait by the CPU when an item goes on sale. Then I have to pay the crazy prices. So i guess we can look at flippers like real estate agents. I prefer to look at them as A**HO***

chime

In response to the Amongst the Waves vinyl I am someone that ended up with 3.

I ordered from hmv and then got an e-mail saying they had cancelled my order as they were no longer getting stock. I then ordered from 2 other places in case either of them would also end up without stock ... to then be e-mailed by hmv to say they now were getting stock and would fulfil my order. So by trying to get hold of one I ended up with 3.

I will hold onto the 2 extras in case I ever miss out on something and it may be possible to use them in a trade. Not everyone with more than one of something is setting out to make money.

I too have bought a lot of vinyl at after market prices and wished I could have bought it when it went on sale.

redrock

dwhite76 wrote:

. Can houses be put into this conversation. :

Houses are. Buy a house when the market is stagnant (therefore low prices), sell it when the market is buoyant. As the population is mobile, loads and loads of people do that. I bought my house, obviously to live in, but also as an investment (eg looking at the neighbourhood - is it 'up and coming' or getting worse, etc.). It's now worth 4.5x what I paid for it 10 years ago, even in the current market.

Anything can be a commodity to potentially make money, as long as someone wants what you have.

I guess with regards to PJ stuff on this board, it's an emotional thing. No one would bat an eyelid if one would say 'I bought a house last week with no intention of living in it and sold it today at twice the buying price', would they? This person would probably get a pat on the back for being so ingenious!

theserialthrilla

Hello all


im the flipper you all hate then .as i got 13 atw on 7".Firstly, same as chime i didnt intend to get this many but have ended up with them.I have already given a few away for free.

secondly i posted on this forum 3 weeks before the release of this 7" that is was going on sale and to pre order it.(maybe this is why its now 1800 and not 1200 as first intended).So if people have missed out they are too blame no one else.time was on your side here.

But this is the first pearl jam item i have ever bought more then one of.Why you ask.i simply cant afford to get all the bits i want without trading or selling on now.If you collect you cant stop.giveway selling for $375 last night .so my $8 profit (not that ive sold any)on a 7" is not going to pay or that..Do you buy stocks have a pension its all making money.(well should be).

i didnt get into pearl jam to make a few $£$£$ on records.i spend a hell of a lot more then i should.

im sorry if you dont agree but im not the only one with a few doubles.

Lastly im on of the few people in here that regularly give stuff away free.lowest bid contest and the world cup sweep..No questions ask i just do it.last prize was a 2003 boot which i could of sold for $40..

chhers all

kevin..now ill duck

redrock

I don't think anyone needs to justify why they have several copies of something, why they don't listen to their vinyl or frame their posters or why (and how/what price) they sell their stuff or even why they may hoard. It's really up to the individual - his/her money to purchase at the right time and his goods to do what he/she wants with them.

SoonForgotten2

Redrock is absolutely right. It's no one else's business why someone buys something or how many they buy.

As I've said before, simply having a limited product is not necessary to being a fan. If I bought all 1800 copies of ATW, I'm not stopping you from listening to ATW or The End on your CD or Backspacer vinyl. To me, scalping tickets is another issue altogether. That's putting a price on an experience. A performance. Something that you can't hold, or frame or relive. It's a one off. So I do think it's wrong to flog a ticket for excessive amounts of money because I believe that experience is essential to being a fan of a band.

It won't be the memorabilia you look back on, it'll be the memories of seeing the band.

HollisBrown

You buy something. You keep it, sell it, play it, hang it, destroy it. Whatever. It's nobody's business but your own.
Now sell me a sealed copy of Soldier Field for a reasonable price.

bootlegger10

My3rdEye wrote:

Some people buy multiple copies of an item to later use in a trade as well. It's not always to 'flip'. If I buy a vinyl I'm buying it to play it in most cases but I do have a few that I intend to use in trades at some point.

Flipping includes selling for cash or trading for something worth what you sell the item for in cash. Trading an item you bought for $20 for an item that is worth $100 on the going market is the same thing as selling your item for $100 and buying the new item for $100.

I don't care what you do, but just saying the "trade" excuse does not work.

Grandmas Jam

completely agree. dont buy a vinyl if youre not going to enjoy it. i have itw vinyl. i dont care how much its worth. i've beat the shit out of that thing listening to it all the time. of course i take good care of it. there are no scratches or skips or pops. but i certain have listened to that thing a million times. could never imagine having a vinyl to look at and admire. vinyls are not like women they are for listening to not looking at.

theserialthrilla

Grandmas Jam wrote:

completely agree. dont buy a vinyl if youre not going to enjoy it. i have itw vinyl. i dont care how much its worth. i've beat the shit out of that thing listening to it all the time. of course i take good care of it. there are no scratches or skips or pops. but i certain have listened to that thing a million times. could never imagine having a vinyl to look at and admire. vinyls are not like women they are for listening to not looking at.

so who do you blame us or the band....why make picture discs then...itw pic costing $700 is not for playing ..


why put out a whitebackspacer
a orange fixer
a blue fixer ..

come on dont you collect anything .

Grandmas Jam

theserialthrilla wrote:

Grandmas Jam wrote:

completely agree. dont buy a vinyl if youre not going to enjoy it. i have itw vinyl. i dont care how much its worth. i've beat the shit out of that thing listening to it all the time. of course i take good care of it. there are no scratches or skips or pops. but i certain have listened to that thing a million times. could never imagine having a vinyl to look at and admire. vinyls are not like women they are for listening to not looking at.

so who do you blame us or the band....why make picture discs then...itw pic costing $700 is not for playing ..


why put out a whitebackspacer
a orange fixer
a blue fixer ..

come on dont you collect anything .

of course i collect things. i collect posters, shirts, trincits, and i guess vinyls. but my point is that i have a functionality of all of these things. i collect posters of shows ive been to, same with shirts (and i always wear them), trincits like books and key chains and stickers that i all use, and vinyls that i listen to. i dont care if you collect other things to sell. but i just get annoyed that people collect the vinyls not to listen to. even if youre gonna resell it and try to make some dough i guess thats fine, but in the end, i want that vinyl to be listened to. thats what it was originally made for. to listen to. would you buy food to look at and not eat? no. don't buy a vinyl to put in some trophy case. listen to that beauty, cause you'll never hear sound like it.

but this is all just my opinion, when it comes down to it I can't force people to do what I want them to do. so really its all just a moot point. its just sad that i would really like to hear Benny Hall on wax and i dont think i'll get the chance because its so expensive and the only person i know that has it has a sealed copy. so once again, this is my opinion, in the end you can only do what you want with your moeny and you possessions

redrock

Grandmas Jam wrote:

but i just get annoyed that people collect the vinyls not to listen to. even if youre gonna resell it and try to make some dough i guess thats fine, but in the end, i want that vinyl to be listened to. thats what it was originally made for. to listen to. would you buy food to look at and not eat? no. don't buy a vinyl to put in some trophy case.

But if you see it as a collectible commodity, your main purpose is not to listen to it but to 'collect' and keep it as pristine as possible. Just like paintings. Some people buy paintings to hang on walls (with the consequence of the artwork degrading), some 'collect' them and these are stored in ideal conditions, out of the light, therefore out of sight. You wish you had a Benny Hall vinyl to listen to (knowing damn well someone has a sealed copy somewhere), I wish I had an original from one of the masters (knowing it's in a vault in someone's private collection, never to be seen).

Ty

SoonForgotten2 wrote:

To me, scalping tickets is another issue altogether. That's putting a price on an experience. A performance. Something that you can't hold, or frame or relive. It's a one off. So I do think it's wrong to flog a ticket for excessive amounts of money because I believe that experience is essential to being a fan of a band.

It won't be the memorabilia you look back on, it'll be the memories of seeing the band.

Gotta disagree with this one. Flipping is scalping. Scalping is flipping. Buying something at a value, then advertising it to someone who obviously wants it, when you had no intention of using it in the first place.

the serialthrilla, I know you give stuff away and are a generous contributor, no questions. 13 just seemed a lot. As the creator of this thread, I even understand maybe having 2 copies, to use as trade or something like that. But imagine this... if the 2,000 copies of Benny wet to the 2,000 most frequent users of this forum, I very much doubt they would be going for $1,000+ at the moment, because those most passionate about them and their limited release, would have one.

JOEJOEJOE

Ty wrote:

Just want to get a few people's opinions on this train of thought. And, saying that, it is a train of thought only, so no attacking (hahaha).

I buy vinyl ad want a few vinyl to acctually listen to. Not to buy them when they come out, keep them sealed, then sell them to someone in a few years for a ridiculous amount of money, which drives up the price for people like myself who want to enjoy the record and have no plans on hiding it away to again make money off it. Similarity to scalping, yes?!

I have a few "holy grail" items like the Epic release of "Live In Atlanta" (given to me by a sweet friend), Epic release of "Rarefied And Live" (won from Triple J radio), "Live On Two Legs"vinyl and the first pressings of "Vs" and "Vitalogy" on vinyl. All get played, a lot!

Now I want to try get a few of the albums i don't have, look on eBay, all priced well over $100, and what is annoying is they are all sealed and as new... meaning someone bought them to make money off them. Or if someone just happened to not getting around to playing it, they shoudl sell it for a price that represents inflation... $20 in 1996 should mean about $30 now, if not the same!

Same goes with poster collectors for the sake of storing and re-selling. Scalpers of a different kind. I have a few prints (every show I have been to), all framed and hanging on display. I bought the only one I didn't get personally at a show (Sydney 1998) from a dude who had it in a tube since then, for $400. It was my "holy grail" and completed my collection, so I paid it. But seriously... is this not scalping, and keeping things from fans who want to enjoy, look at, listen to a product from their favourite band?

I have seen on another thread, people buying multiple copies of "Amongst The Waves". If anyone can justify that to me besides wanting to make money by making it harder for people who want one to get one, go ahead. Even a completist collector only needs 1 copy of everything.

Thanks for listening!

What would you do if someone had an item for sale that originally cost $100, but was now only worth $50; would you insist on paying them their original cost of $100 so that they wouldn't be losing any money?