US citizen was among those killed in Israeli raid...

Pepe Silvia

michelle822 wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

\
oh....what about these?


viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&p=3017848&hilit=paint#p3017801

'Israeli soilders boardered the ships armed with paintball rifles instead of live ammunition in order to prevent injuries of the activists.'

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=134011&p=3018632&hilit=paint#p3018632

'Paint balls vs knives and pipes? Who's doing what? Who's at fault?'

or

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=134231&p=3022863&hilit=paint#p3022863

'they didnt have any machine guns, you can see that just by watching the video. one guy has a fucking paint ball gun.'

or

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&p=3023705&hilit=paint#p3023705

'He said that it was a "scary and frightening" time but that paint pellets, not live ammunition, had been used on the boat he was on, Challenger One.'

Fuck. Are you kidding? Aren't there more important things..

1) He made the first statement early May 31, most of the things now known hadn't even been released at that time. He also clearly clarified in his follow-up which I linked to. Why is it OK to keep referring to the first post and ignore the follow-up correction? Maybe because his original post suits your narrative of Israelis as liar.
2) No one is saying they didn't drop the paint ball guns and switch to live ammo - it's obvious they did.
3) they didn't have machine guns, they had sidearms. this post is also correct
4) he's talking about an entirely different boat and quoting a passenger.

Whatever. I am so fed up with the extremist positions on both sides. This thread is about a 19 year old being killed and you seem more concerned with scoring soundbites (postbites?) over a misstatement on another thread three days ago than discussing the bigger issue.

The articles you linked mention the sidearms except the one paragraph that is editorial by a Russian, not a quote. It says they had paintball guns, not that they didn't have sidearms.

Can you imagine the horror on this board if I were to point out that initial reports were 15 dead, when in the end it was 9 and made some suggestion that someone must have lied in order to explain the discrepancy? Sometimes initial information is not correct, why you feel the need to seize on this and make it "proof" of something, I don't know.

fuck are you kidding me? i guess i can ask you the same thing and say just because israel said it MUST be true, eh?

so, you are saying they only had pistols and paintball guns (and tasers and sound grenades....)


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =127361726

Ambassador PECK: Well, we weren't sure and we had talked about what to do and how to be nonviolent, because the last thing you want to do is provoke armed soldiers. But I've seen three newspapers since the plane landed in New Jersey, and several times the Israelis have been quoted as saying that their guys were armed with paint guns. Well, indeed they were as well as pistols and automatic rifles, and stun grenades and pepper spray.

i guess he made that up?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columb ... dians.html

She said Neish also told him soldiers "menaced" him with assault rifles and attack dogs and he was repeatedly threatened with death.

http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/loca ... 308083643/

Early Monday morning, Israeli military commandos rappelled from helicopters, and fired automatic weapons, killing 10 activists.

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-new ... ck_check=1

She received word of his "voluntary deportation" Tuesday morning from the State Department in Tel Aviv, she said. She said they told her that he had a scrape on his head because he was protecting someone when Israeli naval commandos boarded the ship he was on, the Sfendoni. She said Wednesday he had been hit in the head with a rifle butt.


maybe if israel released the full video and not tiny bits and pieces we'd know for sure?

and yes, there are more important things

redrock

Propably like a lot of us, I'm wondering if having a US citizen killed might pressure Obama to request the independent inquest. Or is the fact that this person has been living in Turkey since the age of 2 make him more Turkish than americans to the eyes of some? Or is the Jewish lobby still too strong and influencial?

Pepe Silvia

michelle822 wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

\
oh....what about these?


viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&p=3017848&hilit=paint#p3017801

'Israeli soilders boardered the ships armed with paintball rifles instead of live ammunition in order to prevent injuries of the activists.'

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=134011&p=3018632&hilit=paint#p3018632

'Paint balls vs knives and pipes? Who's doing what? Who's at fault?'

or

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=134231&p=3022863&hilit=paint#p3022863

'they didnt have any machine guns, you can see that just by watching the video. one guy has a fucking paint ball gun.'

or

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&p=3023705&hilit=paint#p3023705

'He said that it was a "scary and frightening" time but that paint pellets, not live ammunition, had been used on the boat he was on, Challenger One.'

Fuck. Are you kidding? Aren't there more important things..

1) He made the first statement early May 31, most of the things now known hadn't even been released at that time. He also clearly clarified in his follow-up which I linked to. Why is it OK to keep referring to the first post and ignore the follow-up correction? Maybe because his original post suits your narrative of Israelis as liar.

i don't keep referring to it, you said no one claimed only paint ball guns were used, you said:
"why do some posters here continue to insinuate that there has been a statement that the soldiers only carried paint ball guns? I haven't seen any such statement in the news or on the boards. in fact, again and again i see them re-iterating that they had paint ball guns and sidearms."

well, isn't saying
"Israeli soilders boardered the ships armed with paintball rifles instead of live ammunition in order to prevent injuries of the activists."

saying just that? or are you changing your argument? you said the statement was never made, i show you where it was and you change your argument to 'yeah, well he changed it later' that doesn't take away the fact a statement WAS made saying they are armed with paintball rifles INSTEAD OF live ammunition.

that initial statement makes it seem like they didn't even have pistols. and i've seen this in several articles
"" He said he was armed only with a paintball rifle. "It was a civilian paintball gun that any 12-year-old can play with," he said."

don't you think seeing this so much kind of gives people impressions there were no automatic weapons, which even you have said? they had paintball guns, pistols automatic rifles, tasers, tear gas, sound grenades.....

polaris_x

redrock wrote:

Propably like a lot of us, I'm wondering if having a US citizen killed might pressure Obama to request the independent inquest. Or is the fact that this person has been living in Turkey since the age of 2 make him more Turkish than americans to the eyes of some? Or is the Jewish lobby still too strong and influencial?

business as usual ...

and just so people know although the US is the primary defender and supporter of Israel ... there aren't a lot of countries willing to say or do anything about this latest altercation either ... public condemnation only has face value ...

Pepe Silvia

not to mention, michelle, that i posted a video of an interview of a member of the israeli knesset who was on the flotilla saying they started shooting before they even boarded the boat.

it is obvious this whole thing could be cleared up if they just released all the footage but the fact that they won't and only give us little bits and pieces should make you question what they are hiding?

imagine if i was accused of raping a girl and i confiscated all the cameras and when the girl reports me i call her a liar and to 'prove it' i show <1min clips of her kissing me or coming on to me....would that fly? or do ya think people would demand i hand over all the tapes so an uninvolved party or everyone can view them? i know i don't really know you but i'm willing to bet you would demand i turn over all the tapes and let everyone see and see how the sex act actually started and yet in this case you (and others) are willing to just take their extremely edited version to be the final word on it all.

it's just like operation cast lead when israel was accused of using white phosphorous rounds in civilian areas and israel said it was a lie and didn't deserve a comment and many here believed it.....then the UN and red cross produce the rounds with the serial numbers being traced back to israel....then israel says oh yeah, we used that stuff but ONLY at night to illuminate the battlefield! and then....pictures come out showing them being used in broad daylight and israel changes it's story again to oh, yeah, did we say illuminate the battlefield? we meant to say we used to it to give our guys cover!! and then....it turns out the weapons were used in areas hitting a UN building holding several hundred Gazans, a Red Cross building and a storehouse with millions of dollars in humanitarian aid...

and what does israel do? they put a fucking post-it note in 2 officers files. so you can write it off as me just wanting things to fit with my agenda of 'israeli's as liar' but it has nothing to do with their nationality or religion, it has to do with they repeatedly lie about these things and people accept it no matter how many times they change their story and backpeddle and then when it's proven the initial story was true all along there is no anger from those defending it previously, it just blows by in the wind and is written off.

same thing when they killed that journalist james miller, they repeatedly lied about that until it was proven the original accusation was right the whole time but it's just brushed aside.

so it has nothing to do with my wish for a narrative, it has to do with recent history and people from former diplomats to a current knesset member who were on the boats saying israel is lying. just look at that bs haaretz pic of the 'left-wing activist' threating the IDF with a knife in broad daylight while the people behind him are casually taking pictures and smiling and yet it's caption says it happened right after the commandos boarded the vessel (which was 4am, i've never been to israel, is it usually that bright out at 4am?? and do people usually look that casual as armed commandos are storming their vessel???)

i would feel this way if it were Buddhists doing this for fuck's sake!

cincybearcat

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

read my example.

1st dick move. I did read it.

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

the commandos shut off communications, the first thug move, then they invaded the ship in neutral international waters, 2nd dick move, then they descended onto the deck of the ship at night while the majority of the passengers were asleep, 3rd dick move, all of these moves were unprovoked, and all of these are examples of provocation by the commandos...it does no matter who throws the first punch when the people on the boat were thrice provoked. the way i look at it is those 3 moves by the commandos were the initiation of hostilities. period, end of story.

Yeah, I get what you are saying. I would still like to know who made the first physical attack. But, then again, that may not matter considering the tactics used certainly would have scared people into thinking they must defend themselves against an "attack".

Sometimes I wonder why Israel does such dumb things. I think it's an arrogance factor and it will be there downfall.

puremagic

For the camp that feels no American should have been on the boats. Would that have validated Israel's right to kill? What a weak point!

Hell, Israel is claimed to have the world’s best trained commando forces and they couldn’t disarm a bunch humanitarian activists, with or without pipes or knives, without using their guns.

Israel is a foreign country; it is not part of the United States of America. If the ‘right to exist’ is fueling Israel’s paranoid killing sprees, take it up with Germany, but don’t tell Americans we need Israel’s permission to travel as we please.

The outcry against Israel is based on Israel’s continued political policy that makes it think it can attack and kill anyone, anywhere (like a common terrorist organization) and not be held accountable under international laws like any other nation of the world.

Israel’s selfish attack made Gaza a world issue by confirming Israel’s absolute stranglehold-control over the basic life sustaining requirements of the entire Palestinian population of Gaza.

Israel made a miscalculation by pulling the American public into their mess. The American protesters aren’t anti-semitic, they’re Christians, Evangelists, Catholics; Americans who ‘believe’ in humanitarian aid. --People whose moral faith is based on charity. --People who will now want to organize and personally ensure that Gaza receives humanitarian aid.

Israel declared open house, now everyone wants to see inside.

Byrnzie

Just another American added to the list of those murdered by Israel. At least you American tax payers can rest assured that $4 Billion of your tax money is being spent on a worthy cause every year.

Byrnzie

I wonder if the Americans would have been happy if North Korea had conducted the investigation into the sinking of the South Korean ship?
Yet they trust Israel to investigate themselves. Just like they did after their bombardment of Gaza.

badbrains

Pepe Silvia wrote:

it didn't matter when they killed americans attacking the uss liberty killing our military men and it didn't matter when operation susannah was exposed

BINGO!!!! Right as usual señor pepe!!!!

badbrains

redrock wrote:

Propably like a lot of us, I'm wondering if having a US citizen killed might pressure Obama to request the independent inquest. Or is the fact that this person has been living in Turkey since the age of 2 make him more Turkish than americans to the eyes of some? Or is the Jewish lobby still too strong and influencial?

AIPAC

badbrains

Byrnzie wrote:

Just another American added to the list of those murdered by Israel. At least you American tax payers can rest assured that $4 Billion of your tax money is being spent on a worthy cause every year.

I believe it's actually 9 billion byrnzie. That's $9,000,000,000.** a year. That's one HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERY year!