US citizen was among those killed in Israeli raid...
arq
Posts: 8,049
There's so many threads about this that i didn't know where to put it, so sorry about creating another thread :oops:
News Alert: American citizen was among those killed in Israeli raid of Turkish aid ship
09:57 AM EDT Thursday, June 3, 2010
JERUSALEM – An American citizen of Turkish origin was among the nine Turks killed in a botched Israeli effort to stop a Turkish aid ship from reaching the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, a Turkish official said on Thursday.
"It’s a Turkish origin, American citizen. We know that,’’ the official said by phone from Turkey, adding that more details were not yet available.
The nine bodies were flown home from Israel to Turkey, along with hundreds of activists, aboard a Turkish plane yesterday. Israel was not able to identify the bodies because the dead had no identification on them, Israeli officials said.
The killing of nine Turks has created enormous tensions in the relationship between Israel and Turkey.
Israel has come under widespread criticism following the operation, aimed at maintaining a blockade of Gaza. Israel accused the Turkish contingent of being part of a radical Islamic movement and showed video of passengers attacking naval commandos as they landed on board.
News Alert: American citizen was among those killed in Israeli raid of Turkish aid ship
09:57 AM EDT Thursday, June 3, 2010
JERUSALEM – An American citizen of Turkish origin was among the nine Turks killed in a botched Israeli effort to stop a Turkish aid ship from reaching the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, a Turkish official said on Thursday.
"It’s a Turkish origin, American citizen. We know that,’’ the official said by phone from Turkey, adding that more details were not yet available.
The nine bodies were flown home from Israel to Turkey, along with hundreds of activists, aboard a Turkish plane yesterday. Israel was not able to identify the bodies because the dead had no identification on them, Israeli officials said.
The killing of nine Turks has created enormous tensions in the relationship between Israel and Turkey.
Israel has come under widespread criticism following the operation, aimed at maintaining a blockade of Gaza. Israel accused the Turkish contingent of being part of a radical Islamic movement and showed video of passengers attacking naval commandos as they landed on board.
"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it"
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
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Comments
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/american ... d=10814848
American, 19, Among Gaza Flotilla Dead
Furkan Dogan Was Shot Five Times, Including Four Times in Head
By ZOE MAGEE
June 3, 2010
A U.S. citizen who lived in Turkey is among the nine people killed when Israeli commandos stormed a Turkish aid ship heading for the Gaza Strip, officials said today. The victim was identified as Furkan Dogan, 19, a Turkish-American. A forensic report said he was shot at close range, with four bullets in his head and one in his chest, according to the Anatolian news agency.
Dogan was a high school student studying social sciences in the town of Kayseri in central Turkey. He was born in the United States and moved to Turkey at the age of 2. He will be buried in his hometown tomorrow.
Dogan's body was returned to Turkey today along with eight others, all Turkish nationals, who were on board the Mavi Marmara.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I was just thinking the same thing. From the very get go, it was admitted that the soldiers had sidearms but were to use them "only in self-defense". It wasn't like the troops started pulling Derringers out of their boots like on some old Western flick.
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&hilit=rafie&start=180#p3024494
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&p=3017889#p3017889
Seems to me we had a simple language/communication error here, which you guys keep seizing on to perpetuate Israelis as liars.
oh....what about these?
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&p=3017848&hilit=paint#p3017801
'Israeli soilders boardered the ships armed with paintball rifles instead of live ammunition in order to prevent injuries of the activists.'
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=134011&p=3018632&hilit=paint#p3018632
'Paint balls vs knives and pipes? Who's doing what? Who's at fault?'
or
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=134231&p=3022863&hilit=paint#p3022863
'they didnt have any machine guns, you can see that just by watching the video. one guy has a fucking paint ball gun.'
or
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&p=3023705&hilit=paint#p3023705
'He said that it was a "scary and frightening" time but that paint pellets, not live ammunition, had been used on the boat he was on, Challenger One.'
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
As are 63% of Israelis, btw. For those who are prone to stereo-typing, that'd be more Israelis against this action than Americans that were against the Iraq war.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100531/ap_ ... lestinians
A soldier identified only as a sergeant told reporters at a military briefing that the activists on board "were armed with knives, scissors, pepper spray and guns." He said he was armed only with a paintball rifle. "It was a civilian paintball gun that any 12-year-old can play with," he said. "I saw my friends on the deck spitting blood."
The high-seas confrontation was a nightmare scenario for Israel, which insisted its soldiers were simply unprepared for what awaited them on the Mavi Marmara, the ship carrying 600 of the 700 activists headed for Gaza. Instead of carrying their regular automatic rifles, the Israelis said they went in with non-lethal paintball guns and pistols they never expected to use.
nor this
http://rt.com/Top_News/2010-06-02/gaza- ... srael.html
"Israeli Commandos Had Paintball Guns"
Israeli soldiers who shot Freedom Flotilla activists did not intend to use arms, and were carrying paintball guns while boarding the ships. That is according to the Israeli Ambassador to Russia.
In an interview with Ekho Moskvy radio station, Israeli Ambassador Anna Azari said that Israeli soldiers did not plan to storm the flotilla at first.
“We thought that on board these ships are only human rights activists. That is why, when we decided to stop these ships, we did not plan any violence,” she said. “Nobody wanted to kill anybody. When they want to kill someone, especially on a big cargo ship like this, it is done with different methods.”
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
armed commandos disabled communications systems and invaded ships in international waters. the commandos are like the bullies, they went in to pick on the ships and keep them from going about their business of delivering supplies to gaza. the people on the ships are like the schoolyard victims who stood up to the bullies and defended themselves. now the bullies are saying THEY are the victims when THEY are the ones that started this entire incident. that is like some kid trying to steal me and my friend's lunch money, i punch him in the mouth and knock out a few teeth, and then the bully kills me and a few of my friends and then cries to the nurse or in this case the international press corps to sway opinion in his favor, and my friends who survived the attack get suspended from school for defending themselves while nothing happens to the bully that started the entire thing....
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I question why commandos raided the ships in the first place, so you're analogy fits on some levels. I also feel that mobbing the soldiers as they repelled to the deck was a bad idea, and it sounds as if the majority of the activists were not engaged in the battle itself, but blaming these people seems less sensible than blaming those who launched the raid in the first place.
So, using your example, who in the real situation threw the first punch?
And don't read into this question as others have been doing a lot around here lately with posts. I'm not trying to make any point, I just want your perception of what happened.
Fuck. Are you kidding? Aren't there more important things..
1) He made the first statement early May 31, most of the things now known hadn't even been released at that time. He also clearly clarified in his follow-up which I linked to. Why is it OK to keep referring to the first post and ignore the follow-up correction? Maybe because his original post suits your narrative of Israelis as liar.
2) No one is saying they didn't drop the paint ball guns and switch to live ammo - it's obvious they did.
3) they didn't have machine guns, they had sidearms. this post is also correct
4) he's talking about an entirely different boat and quoting a passenger.
Whatever. I am so fed up with the extremist positions on both sides. This thread is about a 19 year old being killed and you seem more concerned with scoring soundbites (postbites?) over a misstatement on another thread three days ago than discussing the bigger issue.
The articles you linked mention the sidearms except the one paragraph that is editorial by a Russian, not a quote. It says they had paintball guns, not that they didn't have sidearms.
Can you imagine the horror on this board if I were to point out that initial reports were 15 dead, when in the end it was 9 and made some suggestion that someone must have lied in order to explain the discrepancy? Sometimes initial information is not correct, why you feel the need to seize on this and make it "proof" of something, I don't know.
they take orders to shoot and kill
attact in the middle of the night to a ship,they take orders what to do exactly!!!!!!!noone leave his external policy to the hands of a 22,25 years old soldier with a gun...international water and stuff is just a conversation..someone give the order shoot to kill..this is the big mistake here..
from israelian point to check a ship of what carry or coming to their waters is normal and right to check...
there are so many ways to do it,shoot warning shoots,shoot gus and go to the ship.even plastic boolets...
they want people to die,and that the bad,and so sad the same time
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Yeah. There were so many things wrong with their plan and the raid. I'm so disappointed that the US is not supporting an independent investigation. It's embarrassing. It's fear of accountability and people who can't admit errors.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
fuck are you kidding me? i guess i can ask you the same thing and say just because israel said it MUST be true, eh?
so, you are saying they only had pistols and paintball guns (and tasers and sound grenades....)
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =127361726
Ambassador PECK: Well, we weren't sure and we had talked about what to do and how to be nonviolent, because the last thing you want to do is provoke armed soldiers. But I've seen three newspapers since the plane landed in New Jersey, and several times the Israelis have been quoted as saying that their guys were armed with paint guns. Well, indeed they were as well as pistols and automatic rifles, and stun grenades and pepper spray.
i guess he made that up?
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columb ... dians.html
She said Neish also told him soldiers "menaced" him with assault rifles and attack dogs and he was repeatedly threatened with death.
http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/loca ... 308083643/
Early Monday morning, Israeli military commandos rappelled from helicopters, and fired automatic weapons, killing 10 activists.
http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-new ... ck_check=1
She received word of his "voluntary deportation" Tuesday morning from the State Department in Tel Aviv, she said. She said they told her that he had a scrape on his head because he was protecting someone when Israeli naval commandos boarded the ship he was on, the Sfendoni. She said Wednesday he had been hit in the head with a rifle butt.
maybe if israel released the full video and not tiny bits and pieces we'd know for sure?
and yes, there are more important things
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
i don't keep referring to it, you said no one claimed only paint ball guns were used, you said:
"why do some posters here continue to insinuate that there has been a statement that the soldiers only carried paint ball guns? I haven't seen any such statement in the news or on the boards. in fact, again and again i see them re-iterating that they had paint ball guns and sidearms."
well, isn't saying
"Israeli soilders boardered the ships armed with paintball rifles instead of live ammunition in order to prevent injuries of the activists."
saying just that? or are you changing your argument? you said the statement was never made, i show you where it was and you change your argument to 'yeah, well he changed it later' that doesn't take away the fact a statement WAS made saying they are armed with paintball rifles INSTEAD OF live ammunition.
that initial statement makes it seem like they didn't even have pistols. and i've seen this in several articles
"" He said he was armed only with a paintball rifle. "It was a civilian paintball gun that any 12-year-old can play with," he said."
don't you think seeing this so much kind of gives people impressions there were no automatic weapons, which even you have said? they had paintball guns, pistols automatic rifles, tasers, tear gas, sound grenades.....
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
business as usual ...
and just so people know although the US is the primary defender and supporter of Israel ... there aren't a lot of countries willing to say or do anything about this latest altercation either ... public condemnation only has face value ...
it is obvious this whole thing could be cleared up if they just released all the footage but the fact that they won't and only give us little bits and pieces should make you question what they are hiding?
imagine if i was accused of raping a girl and i confiscated all the cameras and when the girl reports me i call her a liar and to 'prove it' i show <1min clips of her kissing me or coming on to me....would that fly? or do ya think people would demand i hand over all the tapes so an uninvolved party or everyone can view them? i know i don't really know you but i'm willing to bet you would demand i turn over all the tapes and let everyone see and see how the sex act actually started and yet in this case you (and others) are willing to just take their extremely edited version to be the final word on it all.
it's just like operation cast lead when israel was accused of using white phosphorous rounds in civilian areas and israel said it was a lie and didn't deserve a comment and many here believed it.....then the UN and red cross produce the rounds with the serial numbers being traced back to israel....then israel says oh yeah, we used that stuff but ONLY at night to illuminate the battlefield! and then....pictures come out showing them being used in broad daylight and israel changes it's story again to oh, yeah, did we say illuminate the battlefield? we meant to say we used to it to give our guys cover!! and then....it turns out the weapons were used in areas hitting a UN building holding several hundred Gazans, a Red Cross building and a storehouse with millions of dollars in humanitarian aid...
and what does israel do? they put a fucking post-it note in 2 officers files. so you can write it off as me just wanting things to fit with my agenda of 'israeli's as liar' but it has nothing to do with their nationality or religion, it has to do with they repeatedly lie about these things and people accept it no matter how many times they change their story and backpeddle and then when it's proven the initial story was true all along there is no anger from those defending it previously, it just blows by in the wind and is written off.
same thing when they killed that journalist james miller, they repeatedly lied about that until it was proven the original accusation was right the whole time but it's just brushed aside.
so it has nothing to do with my wish for a narrative, it has to do with recent history and people from former diplomats to a current knesset member who were on the boats saying israel is lying. just look at that bs haaretz pic of the 'left-wing activist' threating the IDF with a knife in broad daylight while the people behind him are casually taking pictures and smiling and yet it's caption says it happened right after the commandos boarded the vessel (which was 4am, i've never been to israel, is it usually that bright out at 4am?? and do people usually look that casual as armed commandos are storming their vessel???)
i would feel this way if it were Buddhists doing this for fuck's sake!
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
1st dick move.
Yeah, I get what you are saying. I would still like to know who made the first physical attack. But, then again, that may not matter considering the tactics used certainly would have scared people into thinking they must defend themselves against an "attack".
Sometimes I wonder why Israel does such dumb things. I think it's an arrogance factor and it will be there downfall.
Hell, Israel is claimed to have the world’s best trained commando forces and they couldn’t disarm a bunch humanitarian activists, with or without pipes or knives, without using their guns.
Israel is a foreign country; it is not part of the United States of America. If the ‘right to exist’ is fueling Israel’s paranoid killing sprees, take it up with Germany, but don’t tell Americans we need Israel’s permission to travel as we please.
The outcry against Israel is based on Israel’s continued political policy that makes it think it can attack and kill anyone, anywhere (like a common terrorist organization) and not be held accountable under international laws like any other nation of the world.
Israel’s selfish attack made Gaza a world issue by confirming Israel’s absolute stranglehold-control over the basic life sustaining requirements of the entire Palestinian population of Gaza.
Israel made a miscalculation by pulling the American public into their mess. The American protesters aren’t anti-semitic, they’re Christians, Evangelists, Catholics; Americans who ‘believe’ in humanitarian aid. --People whose moral faith is based on charity. --People who will now want to organize and personally ensure that Gaza receives humanitarian aid.
Israel declared open house, now everyone wants to see inside.
Yet they trust Israel to investigate themselves. Just like they did after their bombardment of Gaza.
BINGO!!!! Right as usual señor pepe!!!!