US citizen was among those killed in Israeli raid...

arq

There's so many threads about this that i didn't know where to put it, so sorry about creating another thread :oops:

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News Alert: American citizen was among those killed in Israeli raid of Turkish aid ship
09:57 AM EDT Thursday, June 3, 2010

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JERUSALEM – An American citizen of Turkish origin was among the nine Turks killed in a botched Israeli effort to stop a Turkish aid ship from reaching the Hamas-controlled Gaza Strip, a Turkish official said on Thursday.

"It’s a Turkish origin, American citizen. We know that,’’ the official said by phone from Turkey, adding that more details were not yet available.

The nine bodies were flown home from Israel to Turkey, along with hundreds of activists, aboard a Turkish plane yesterday. Israel was not able to identify the bodies because the dead had no identification on them, Israeli officials said.

The killing of nine Turks has created enormous tensions in the relationship between Israel and Turkey.
Israel has come under widespread criticism following the operation, aimed at maintaining a blockade of Gaza. Israel accused the Turkish contingent of being part of a radical Islamic movement and showed video of passengers attacking naval commandos as they landed on board.

gimmesometruth27

if this is true then the israeli military murdered an american citizen. you would think the US government would at least say SOMETHING to condemn that action, but the alliance with israel means more than one dead citizen..

Pepe Silvia

it didn't matter when they killed americans attacking the uss liberty killing our military men and it didn't matter when operation susannah was exposed

puremagic

4 bullets to the head and 1 to the chest - that must of been some serious pipe swing action.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/american ... d=10814848

American, 19, Among Gaza Flotilla Dead
Furkan Dogan Was Shot Five Times, Including Four Times in Head
By ZOE MAGEE
June 3, 2010

A U.S. citizen who lived in Turkey is among the nine people killed when Israeli commandos stormed a Turkish aid ship heading for the Gaza Strip, officials said today. The victim was identified as Furkan Dogan, 19, a Turkish-American. A forensic report said he was shot at close range, with four bullets in his head and one in his chest, according to the Anatolian news agency.

Dogan was a high school student studying social sciences in the town of Kayseri in central Turkey. He was born in the United States and moved to Turkey at the age of 2. He will be buried in his hometown tomorrow.

Dogan's body was returned to Turkey today along with eight others, all Turkish nationals, who were on board the Mavi Marmara.

gimmesometruth27

puremagic wrote:

4 bullets to the head and 1 to the chest - that must of been some serious pipe swing action.

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Media/american ... d=10814848

American, 19, Among Gaza Flotilla Dead
Furkan Dogan Was Shot Five Times, Including Four Times in Head
By ZOE MAGEE
June 3, 2010

A U.S. citizen who lived in Turkey is among the nine people killed when Israeli commandos stormed a Turkish aid ship heading for the Gaza Strip, officials said today. The victim was identified as Furkan Dogan, 19, a Turkish-American. A forensic report said he was shot at close range, with four bullets in his head and one in his chest, according to the Anatolian news agency.

Dogan was a high school student studying social sciences in the town of Kayseri in central Turkey. He was born in the United States and moved to Turkey at the age of 2. He will be buried in his hometown tomorrow.

Dogan's body was returned to Turkey today along with eight others, all Turkish nationals, who were on board the Mavi Marmara.

i didn't know a paintball gun can do this...generally one shot to the head would do the trick...poor bastard....

michelleelise

why do some posters here continue to insinuate that there has been a statement that the soldiers only carried paint ball guns? I haven't seen any such statement in the news or on the boards. in fact, again and again i see them re-iterating that they had paint ball guns and sidearms.

rebornFixer

michelle822 wrote:

why do some posters here continue to insinuate that there has been a statement that the soldiers only carried paint ball guns? I haven't seen any such statement in the news or on the boards. in fact, again and again i see them re-iterating that they had paint ball guns and sidearms.

I was just thinking the same thing. From the very get go, it was admitted that the soldiers had sidearms but were to use them "only in self-defense". It wasn't like the troops started pulling Derringers out of their boots like on some old Western flick.

Pepe Silvia

michelle822 wrote:

why do some posters here continue to insinuate that there has been a statement that the soldiers only carried paint ball guns? I haven't seen any such statement in the news or on the boards. in fact, again and again i see them re-iterating that they had paint ball guns and sidearms.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&hilit=rafie&start=180#p3024494

rafie wrote:

To all the people who kept rolling their eyes when I repeatedly wrote that the forces initially bordered the ships with paint ball guns One of the activist on the convoy actually confirms it (It's in the article posted by Austicman a couple of post up)! Shocking when the truth interferes with the bubble you put around yourself...

michelleelise

I just think there is enough horrible news here with the facts alone, we don't need to perpetuate incorrect information on top of that...

michelleelise

Pepe Silvia wrote:

michelle822 wrote:

why do some posters here continue to insinuate that there has been a statement that the soldiers only carried paint ball guns? I haven't seen any such statement in the news or on the boards. in fact, again and again i see them re-iterating that they had paint ball guns and sidearms.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&hilit=rafie&start=180#p3024494

rafie wrote:

To all the people who kept rolling their eyes when I repeatedly wrote that the forces initially bordered the ships with paint ball guns One of the activist on the convoy actually confirms it (It's in the article posted by Austicman a couple of post up)! Shocking when the truth interferes with the bubble you put around yourself...

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&p=3017889#p3017889

Seems to me we had a simple language/communication error here, which you guys keep seizing on to perpetuate Israelis as liars.

Pepe Silvia

michelle822 wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

michelle822 wrote:

why do some posters here continue to insinuate that there has been a statement that the soldiers only carried paint ball guns? I haven't seen any such statement in the news or on the boards. in fact, again and again i see them re-iterating that they had paint ball guns and sidearms.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&hilit=rafie&start=180#p3024494

rafie wrote:

To all the people who kept rolling their eyes when I repeatedly wrote that the forces initially bordered the ships with paint ball guns One of the activist on the convoy actually confirms it (It's in the article posted by Austicman a couple of post up)! Shocking when the truth interferes with the bubble you put around yourself...

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&p=3017889#p3017889

Seems to me we had a simple language/communication error here, which you guys keep seizing on to perpetuate Israelis as liars.

oh....what about these?


viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&p=3017848&hilit=paint#p3017801

'Israeli soilders boardered the ships armed with paintball rifles instead of live ammunition in order to prevent injuries of the activists.'

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=134011&p=3018632&hilit=paint#p3018632

'Paint balls vs knives and pipes? Who's doing what? Who's at fault?'

or

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=134231&p=3022863&hilit=paint#p3022863

'they didnt have any machine guns, you can see that just by watching the video. one guy has a fucking paint ball gun.'

or

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&p=3023705&hilit=paint#p3023705

'He said that it was a "scary and frightening" time but that paint pellets, not live ammunition, had been used on the boat he was on, Challenger One.'

michelleelise

BTW, before the attacks start, I'm not even agreeing with the original post. I am in the camp that they should not have boarded those ships.

As are 63% of Israelis, btw. For those who are prone to stereo-typing, that'd be more Israelis against this action than Americans that were against the Iraq war.

Pepe Silvia

this only mentions paintball guns and some pistols

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100531/ap_ ... lestinians

A soldier identified only as a sergeant told reporters at a military briefing that the activists on board "were armed with knives, scissors, pepper spray and guns." He said he was armed only with a paintball rifle. "It was a civilian paintball gun that any 12-year-old can play with," he said. "I saw my friends on the deck spitting blood."

The high-seas confrontation was a nightmare scenario for Israel, which insisted its soldiers were simply unprepared for what awaited them on the Mavi Marmara, the ship carrying 600 of the 700 activists headed for Gaza. Instead of carrying their regular automatic rifles, the Israelis said they went in with non-lethal paintball guns and pistols they never expected to use.

nor this

http://rt.com/Top_News/2010-06-02/gaza- ... srael.html

"Israeli Commandos Had Paintball Guns"

Israeli soldiers who shot Freedom Flotilla activists did not intend to use arms, and were carrying paintball guns while boarding the ships. That is according to the Israeli Ambassador to Russia.

In an interview with Ekho Moskvy radio station, Israeli Ambassador Anna Azari said that Israeli soldiers did not plan to storm the flotilla at first.

“We thought that on board these ships are only human rights activists. That is why, when we decided to stop these ships, we did not plan any violence,” she said. “Nobody wanted to kill anybody. When they want to kill someone, especially on a big cargo ship like this, it is done with different methods.”

gimmesometruth27

this whole situation is stupid. this is a long example, but go with me on this one. it is like a schoolyard bullying that went awry...the facts are as follows...

armed commandos disabled communications systems and invaded ships in international waters. the commandos are like the bullies, they went in to pick on the ships and keep them from going about their business of delivering supplies to gaza. the people on the ships are like the schoolyard victims who stood up to the bullies and defended themselves. now the bullies are saying THEY are the victims when THEY are the ones that started this entire incident. that is like some kid trying to steal me and my friend's lunch money, i punch him in the mouth and knock out a few teeth, and then the bully kills me and a few of my friends and then cries to the nurse or in this case the international press corps to sway opinion in his favor, and my friends who survived the attack get suspended from school for defending themselves while nothing happens to the bully that started the entire thing....

rebornFixer

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

this whole situation is stupid. this is a long example, but go with me on this one. it is like a schoolyard bullying that went awry...the facts are as follows...

armed commandos disabled communications systems and invaded ships in international waters. the commandos are like the bullies, they went in to pick on the ships and keep them from going about their business of delivering supplies to gaza. the people on the ships are like the schoolyard victims who stood up to the bullies and defended themselves. now the bullies are saying THEY are the victims when THEY are the ones that started this entire incident. that is like some kid trying to steal me and my friend's lunch money, i punch him in the mouth and knock out a few teeth, and then the bully kills me and a few of my friends and then cries to the nurse or in this case the international press corps to sway opinion in his favor, and my friends who survived the attack get suspended from school for defending themselves while nothing happens to the bully that started the entire thing....

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I question why commandos raided the ships in the first place, so you're analogy fits on some levels. I also feel that mobbing the soldiers as they repelled to the deck was a bad idea, and it sounds as if the majority of the activists were not engaged in the battle itself, but blaming these people seems less sensible than blaming those who launched the raid in the first place.

cincybearcat

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

this whole situation is stupid. this is a long example, but go with me on this one. it is like a schoolyard bullying that went awry...the facts are as follows...

armed commandos disabled communications systems and invaded ships in international waters. the commandos are like the bullies, they went in to pick on the ships and keep them from going about their business of delivering supplies to gaza. the people on the ships are like the schoolyard victims who stood up to the bullies and defended themselves. now the bullies are saying THEY are the victims when THEY are the ones that started this entire incident. that is like some kid trying to steal me and my friend's lunch money, i punch him in the mouth and knock out a few teeth, and then the bully kills me and a few of my friends and then cries to the nurse or in this case the international press corps to sway opinion in his favor, and my friends who survived the attack get suspended from school for defending themselves while nothing happens to the bully that started the entire thing....

So, using your example, who in the real situation threw the first punch?

And don't read into this question as others have been doing a lot around here lately with posts. I'm not trying to make any point, I just want your perception of what happened.

michelleelise

Pepe Silvia wrote:

\
oh....what about these?


viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&p=3017848&hilit=paint#p3017801

'Israeli soilders boardered the ships armed with paintball rifles instead of live ammunition in order to prevent injuries of the activists.'

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=134011&p=3018632&hilit=paint#p3018632

'Paint balls vs knives and pipes? Who's doing what? Who's at fault?'

or

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=134231&p=3022863&hilit=paint#p3022863

'they didnt have any machine guns, you can see that just by watching the video. one guy has a fucking paint ball gun.'

or

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=133579&p=3023705&hilit=paint#p3023705

'He said that it was a "scary and frightening" time but that paint pellets, not live ammunition, had been used on the boat he was on, Challenger One.'

Fuck. Are you kidding? Aren't there more important things..

1) He made the first statement early May 31, most of the things now known hadn't even been released at that time. He also clearly clarified in his follow-up which I linked to. Why is it OK to keep referring to the first post and ignore the follow-up correction? Maybe because his original post suits your narrative of Israelis as liar.
2) No one is saying they didn't drop the paint ball guns and switch to live ammo - it's obvious they did.
3) they didn't have machine guns, they had sidearms. this post is also correct
4) he's talking about an entirely different boat and quoting a passenger.

Whatever. I am so fed up with the extremist positions on both sides. This thread is about a 19 year old being killed and you seem more concerned with scoring soundbites (postbites?) over a misstatement on another thread three days ago than discussing the bigger issue.

The articles you linked mention the sidearms except the one paragraph that is editorial by a Russian, not a quote. It says they had paintball guns, not that they didn't have sidearms.

Can you imagine the horror on this board if I were to point out that initial reports were 15 dead, when in the end it was 9 and made some suggestion that someone must have lied in order to explain the discrepancy? Sometimes initial information is not correct, why you feel the need to seize on this and make it "proof" of something, I don't know.

dimitrispearljam

ok.as i said before,from experience.there is only a mistake here...the shooting..the one order the shooting,knew the results..army commantos trained every day to disarm,people with guns,knifes,bombs
they take orders to shoot and kill
attact in the middle of the night to a ship,they take orders what to do exactly!!!!!!!noone leave his external policy to the hands of a 22,25 years old soldier with a gun...international water and stuff is just a conversation..someone give the order shoot to kill..this is the big mistake here..
from israelian point to check a ship of what carry or coming to their waters is normal and right to check...
there are so many ways to do it,shoot warning shoots,shoot gus and go to the ship.even plastic boolets...
they want people to die,and that the bad,and so sad the same time

michelleelise

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

this whole situation is stupid. this is a long example, but go with me on this one. it is like a schoolyard bullying that went awry...the facts are as follows...

armed commandos disabled communications systems and invaded ships in international waters. the commandos are like the bullies, they went in to pick on the ships and keep them from going about their business of delivering supplies to gaza. the people on the ships are like the schoolyard victims who stood up to the bullies and defended themselves. now the bullies are saying THEY are the victims when THEY are the ones that started this entire incident. that is like some kid trying to steal me and my friend's lunch money, i punch him in the mouth and knock out a few teeth, and then the bully kills me and a few of my friends and then cries to the nurse or in this case the international press corps to sway opinion in his favor, and my friends who survived the attack get suspended from school for defending themselves while nothing happens to the bully that started the entire thing....

Yeah. There were so many things wrong with their plan and the raid. I'm so disappointed that the US is not supporting an independent investigation. It's embarrassing. It's fear of accountability and people who can't admit errors.

gimmesometruth27

cincybearcat wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

this whole situation is stupid. this is a long example, but go with me on this one. it is like a schoolyard bullying that went awry...the facts are as follows...

armed commandos disabled communications systems and invaded ships in international waters. the commandos are like the bullies, they went in to pick on the ships and keep them from going about their business of delivering supplies to gaza. the people on the ships are like the schoolyard victims who stood up to the bullies and defended themselves. now the bullies are saying THEY are the victims when THEY are the ones that started this entire incident. that is like some kid trying to steal me and my friend's lunch money, i punch him in the mouth and knock out a few teeth, and then the bully kills me and a few of my friends and then cries to the nurse or in this case the international press corps to sway opinion in his favor, and my friends who survived the attack get suspended from school for defending themselves while nothing happens to the bully that started the entire thing....

So, using your example, who in the real situation threw the first punch?

And don't read into this question as others have been doing a lot around here lately with posts. I'm not trying to make any point, I just want your perception of what happened.

read my example. the commandos shut off communications, the first thug move, then they invaded the ship in neutral international waters, 2nd dick move, then they descended onto the deck of the ship at night while the majority of the passengers were asleep, 3rd dick move, all of these moves were unprovoked, and all of these are examples of provocation by the commandos...it does no matter who throws the first punch when the people on the boat were thrice provoked. the way i look at it is those 3 moves by the commandos were the initiation of hostilities. period, end of story.

gimmesometruth27

michelle822 wrote:

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

this whole situation is stupid. this is a long example, but go with me on this one. it is like a schoolyard bullying that went awry...the facts are as follows...

armed commandos disabled communications systems and invaded ships in international waters. the commandos are like the bullies, they went in to pick on the ships and keep them from going about their business of delivering supplies to gaza. the people on the ships are like the schoolyard victims who stood up to the bullies and defended themselves. now the bullies are saying THEY are the victims when THEY are the ones that started this entire incident. that is like some kid trying to steal me and my friend's lunch money, i punch him in the mouth and knock out a few teeth, and then the bully kills me and a few of my friends and then cries to the nurse or in this case the international press corps to sway opinion in his favor, and my friends who survived the attack get suspended from school for defending themselves while nothing happens to the bully that started the entire thing....

Yeah. There were so many things wrong with their plan and the raid. I'm so disappointed that the US is not supporting an independent investigation. It's embarrassing. It's fear of accountability and people who can't admit errors.

i am ashamed that the us is not supporting it either. i REALLY, SERIOUSLY thought we were getting a just man when we elected obama....how wrong i was on that one...instead we got "business as usual"...