14 years and counting...

LongestRoad

brianlux said:

unsung said:

And most normal people would blame the parents for putting those kids in that situation.

unsung said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

unsung said:

And most normal people would blame the parents for putting those kids in that situation.

The counter-argument to this though is that not all of these parents are trying to illegally immigrate. Many come seeking asylum from oppressive governments like Guatemala. Since Trump is obviously against that sort of thing, those people should just be turned away, not detained.

And those countries all have US embassies where asylum can be obtained.

Heather Cox Richardson, a professor at Boston University, posted an article of Face book that addresses these issue.  Keys points in bold:

Trump began his presidential campaign by calling Mexican immigrants criminals and rapists, and Attorney General Jeff Sessions has said that the new policy of separating children from their parents will deter illegal immigrants. Then, today Trump tweeted that our immigration problems come from Democrats, who "don’t care about crime and want illegal immigrants, no matter how bad they may be, to pour into and infest our Country." Trump is tangling up our long history of Mexican immigration with a new, startling trend of refugees from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras, and then blaming Democrats for coddling criminals.

Let's untangle this mess:

First, problems with Mexican immigration stem not from Democratic softness on crime, but from a bipartisan 1965 law that reworked America's immigration laws. The story behind the 1965 law is this: Congress had passed the nation's first comprehensive immigration law in 1924. That law limited immigration according to quotas assigned to each country. Those countries were heavily weighted toward western Europe, virtually prohibiting immigration from Asia and Africa, and dramatically curtailing it from southern Europe.

That law did not monitor immigration from Latin America at all, for the simple reason that from the time the current border was set in 1848 until the 1930s, people moved back and forth across it without restrictions. Laborers, especially, came from Mexico to work on the huge American farms that dominate our agricultural sector, especially after 1907, when the Japanese workers who had been taking over those jobs were (unofficially) kept out of the country. Then the government encouraged immigration during WWI, to help increase production.

The Depression, when the bottom fell out of the economy, coupled with the Dust Bowl, when the bottom fell out of the western plains, made destitute westerners turn on Mexican migrants, (as well as on their poor white neighbors, as John Steinbeck wrote about in The Grapes of Wrath). The government rounded up Mexicans and shipped them back over the border.

World War II made migrant laborers vital again, and to regularize the system, the US government in 1942 started a guest worker policy called the "Bracero" Program. It was supposed to guarantee that migrant workers were well treated, paid, and housed adequately. But employers happily hired illegal as well as legal workers, and American workers complained. President Eisenhower returned about a million illegal workers in 1954 under "Operation Wetback," only to have officials readmit most of them as braceros. Under pressure both from labor and from reformers who recognized that the system was exploitive, President Kennedy initiated the process that ended the Bracero program in 1964.

The end of that system coincided with congressional reworking of the 1924 immigration act. In the midst of the Vietnam War and the Civil Rights Movement, Congress wanted to end the racial quota system of immigration and replace it with one that did not so obviously discriminate against Asia and Africa. The 1965 Hart-Celler Act opened immigration to all nations, setting a general cap on total immigration levels. But southern congressmen, appalled at the idea of black immigration, introduced a provision that privileged family migration, arguing that "family unification" should be the nation's top priority. They expected that old-stock immigrants from western Europe would use the provision to bring over their relatives, which would keep the effect of the 1924 law without the statute. But, of course, their provision had the opposite effect. It was new immigrants who wanted to bring their families; not old ones. So immigration began to skew heavily toward Asia and Latin America.

At the same time, Hart-Celler put a cap on Latin American immigration for the first time, just as the guest worker program ended. The cap was low: 20,000, although 50,000 workers were coming annually at that point. And American agribusiness depended on migrant labor. Workers continued to come as they always had, and to be employed, as always. But now their presence was illegal. In 1986, Congress tried to fix the problem by offering amnesty to 2.3 million Mexicans who were living in the United States and by cracking down on employers who hired undocumented workers. But rather than ending the problem of undocumented workers, the new law exacerbated it by beginning the process of guarding and militarizing the border. Until then, migrants into the United States had been offset by an equal number leaving at the end of the season. Once the border became heavily guarded, Mexican migrants refused to take the chance of leaving.

Since 1986, US politicians have refused to deal with this disconnect, which grew in the 1990s when NAFTA flooded Mexico with US corn and drove Mexican farmers to find work, largely in the American Southeast. But this "problem" is hardly either new nor suddenly catastrophic. While about 6 million undocumented Mexicans currently live in the United States, most of them- 78%- are long-term residents, here more than ten years. Only 7% have lived here less than five years. (This is a much more stable ratio than undocumented immigrants from any other country.) And since 2007, the number of Mexicans living illegally in the United States has declined by more than a million. The Mexican economy is good enough that more Mexicans are leaving America these days than coming.

So undocumented Mexican "criminals and rapists" are not really the issue at hand.

What is happening right now at America's southern border is not really about Mexicans at all. It is a relatively new issue, which began around 2014. The people now arriving at our border, where children are separated from their parents, are generally from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras, where "warlike levels of violence" are creating refugees. They are not sneaking over the border, they are refugees applying for asylum, which is legal in the United States. And while we are trying to stop them by taking their children, researchers say that, while it is possible to discourage economic migrants-- like most Mexicans-- no deterrent will stop migrant refugees, for they are fleeing death.

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Spiritual_Chaos

LongestRoad said:

brianlux said:

unsung said:

And most normal people would blame the parents for putting those kids in that situation.

unsung said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

unsung said:

And most normal people would blame the parents for putting those kids in that situation.

The counter-argument to this though is that not all of these parents are trying to illegally immigrate. Many come seeking asylum from oppressive governments like Guatemala. Since Trump is obviously against that sort of thing, those people should just be turned away, not detained.

And those countries all have US embassies where asylum can be obtained.

Heather Cox Richardson, a professor at Boston University, posted an article of Face book that addresses these issue.  Keys points in bold:

Trump began his presidential campaign by calling Mexican immigrants criminals and rapists, and Attorney General Jeff Sessions has said that the new policy of separating children from their parents will deter illegal immigrants. Then, today Trump tweeted that our immigration problems come from Democrats, who "don’t care about crime and want illegal immigrants, no matter how bad they may be, to pour into and infest our Country." Trump is tangling up our long history of Mexican immigration with a new, startling trend of refugees from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras, and then blaming Democrats for coddling criminals.

Let's untangle this mess:

First, problems with Mexican immigration stem not from Democratic softness on crime, but from a bipartisan 1965 law that reworked America's immigration laws. The story behind the 1965 law is this: Congress had passed the nation's first comprehensive immigration law in 1924. That law limited immigration according to quotas assigned to each country. Those countries were heavily weighted toward western Europe, virtually prohibiting immigration from Asia and Africa, and dramatically curtailing it from southern Europe.

That law did not monitor immigration from Latin America at all, for the simple reason that from the time the current border was set in 1848 until the 1930s, people moved back and forth across it without restrictions. Laborers, especially, came from Mexico to work on the huge American farms that dominate our agricultural sector, especially after 1907, when the Japanese workers who had been taking over those jobs were (unofficially) kept out of the country. Then the government encouraged immigration during WWI, to help increase production.

The Depression, when the bottom fell out of the economy, coupled with the Dust Bowl, when the bottom fell out of the western plains, made destitute westerners turn on Mexican migrants, (as well as on their poor white neighbors, as John Steinbeck wrote about in The Grapes of Wrath). The government rounded up Mexicans and shipped them back over the border.

World War II made migrant laborers vital again, and to regularize the system, the US government in 1942 started a guest worker policy called the "Bracero" Program. It was supposed to guarantee that migrant workers were well treated, paid, and housed adequately. But employers happily hired illegal as well as legal workers, and American workers complained. President Eisenhower returned about a million illegal workers in 1954 under "Operation Wetback," only to have officials readmit most of them as braceros. Under pressure both from labor and from reformers who recognized that the system was exploitive, President Kennedy initiated the process that ended the Bracero program in 1964.

The end of that system coincided with congressional reworking of the 1924 immigration act. In the midst of the Vietnam War and the Civil Rights Movement, Congress wanted to end the racial quota system of immigration and replace it with one that did not so obviously discriminate against Asia and Africa. The 1965 Hart-Celler Act opened immigration to all nations, setting a general cap on total immigration levels. But southern congressmen, appalled at the idea of black immigration, introduced a provision that privileged family migration, arguing that "family unification" should be the nation's top priority. They expected that old-stock immigrants from western Europe would use the provision to bring over their relatives, which would keep the effect of the 1924 law without the statute. But, of course, their provision had the opposite effect. It was new immigrants who wanted to bring their families; not old ones. So immigration began to skew heavily toward Asia and Latin America.

At the same time, Hart-Celler put a cap on Latin American immigration for the first time, just as the guest worker program ended. The cap was low: 20,000, although 50,000 workers were coming annually at that point. And American agribusiness depended on migrant labor. Workers continued to come as they always had, and to be employed, as always. But now their presence was illegal. In 1986, Congress tried to fix the problem by offering amnesty to 2.3 million Mexicans who were living in the United States and by cracking down on employers who hired undocumented workers. But rather than ending the problem of undocumented workers, the new law exacerbated it by beginning the process of guarding and militarizing the border. Until then, migrants into the United States had been offset by an equal number leaving at the end of the season. Once the border became heavily guarded, Mexican migrants refused to take the chance of leaving.

Since 1986, US politicians have refused to deal with this disconnect, which grew in the 1990s when NAFTA flooded Mexico with US corn and drove Mexican farmers to find work, largely in the American Southeast. But this "problem" is hardly either new nor suddenly catastrophic. While about 6 million undocumented Mexicans currently live in the United States, most of them- 78%- are long-term residents, here more than ten years. Only 7% have lived here less than five years. (This is a much more stable ratio than undocumented immigrants from any other country.) And since 2007, the number of Mexicans living illegally in the United States has declined by more than a million. The Mexican economy is good enough that more Mexicans are leaving America these days than coming.

So undocumented Mexican "criminals and rapists" are not really the issue at hand.

What is happening right now at America's southern border is not really about Mexicans at all. It is a relatively new issue, which began around 2014. The people now arriving at our border, where children are separated from their parents, are generally from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras, where "warlike levels of violence" are creating refugees. They are not sneaking over the border, they are refugees applying for asylum, which is legal in the United States. And while we are trying to stop them by taking their children, researchers say that, while it is possible to discourage economic migrants-- like most Mexicans-- no deterrent will stop migrant refugees, for they are fleeing death.

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

brianlux

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

LongestRoad

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

Number one don'tcompare me to him. You far left liberals love twisting peoples words to fit your agenda. You also conveniently ignore posts that have links to back up non far left liberal views. I see it over and over again in this thread. LOL
I asked the question what is your solution?

Thirty Bills Unpaid

LongestRoad said:

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

Number one don'tcompare me to him. You far left liberals love twisting peoples words to fit your agenda. You also conveniently ignore posts that have links to back up non far left liberal views. I see it over and over again in this thread. LOL
I asked the question what is your solution?

Well no shit they 'ignore posts that have no links to back up non far left liberal views'.

Why the f**k would anyone entertain a figment of someone's imagination? Bring something legitimate to the table and then discuss- not some hokey pokey view of the world developed over a few Coors at the landfill shootin' shit.

Come on, man.

oftenreading

I see this again and again but it never fails to amaze me that the average conservative American has really no idea what a “far left” viewpoint is. Anything left of Mitt Romney seems to be beyond their ken. 

LongestRoad

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

LongestRoad said:

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

Number one don'tcompare me to him. You far left liberals love twisting peoples words to fit your agenda. You also conveniently ignore posts that have links to back up non far left liberal views. I see it over and over again in this thread. LOL
I asked the question what is your solution?

Well no shit they 'ignore posts that have no links to back up non far left liberal views'.

Why the f**k would anyone entertain a figment of someone's imagination? Bring something legitimate to the table and then discuss- not some hokey pokey view of the world developed over a few Coors at the landfill shootin' shit.

Come on, man.

You should re read what I wrote. I said posts that have links. Once again what's your solution to the immigration issue? 

Thirty Bills Unpaid

LongestRoad said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

LongestRoad said:

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

Number one don'tcompare me to him. You far left liberals love twisting peoples words to fit your agenda. You also conveniently ignore posts that have links to back up non far left liberal views. I see it over and over again in this thread. LOL
I asked the question what is your solution?

Well no shit they 'ignore posts that have no links to back up non far left liberal views'.

Why the f**k would anyone entertain a figment of someone's imagination? Bring something legitimate to the table and then discuss- not some hokey pokey view of the world developed over a few Coors at the landfill shootin' shit.

Come on, man.

You should re read what I wrote. I said posts that have links. Once again what's your solution to the immigration issue? 

I did re-read it. I quoted your exact words. Nobody is interested in unsubstantiated, broad sweeping generalizations ungrounded in logic or facts.

The immigration issue is a tough one. The point of the problem is at the border, but the root of the problem is back in the potential immigrants' home country: strife with problems that developed countries have helped create given the level of exploitation which exists there in various forms.

In the state of Washington, I see many Mexican people each year as I travel to the Gorge to attend DMB. My experience with them is they are very family oriented, very friendly, and hard working. If properly vetted I'm not sure why Hispanic/Mexican people wouldn't be considered valuable additions to any country? The white people I see driving around in trucks with other white people in the back of those trucks sitting in old sofas appear to be much bigger candidates for hindering the country's progress.

Here's a potential solution: maybe you guys could work out some trades? Maybe instead of fantasy football... you guys play fantasy country and find some weak owner (country) to trade a big, massive clump of overrated white guys for some Hispanic people with massive upsides?

mcgruff10

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

LongestRoad said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

LongestRoad said:

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

Number one don'tcompare me to him. You far left liberals love twisting peoples words to fit your agenda. You also conveniently ignore posts that have links to back up non far left liberal views. I see it over and over again in this thread. LOL
I asked the question what is your solution?

Well no shit they 'ignore posts that have no links to back up non far left liberal views'.

Why the f**k would anyone entertain a figment of someone's imagination? Bring something legitimate to the table and then discuss- not some hokey pokey view of the world developed over a few Coors at the landfill shootin' shit.

Come on, man.

You should re read what I wrote. I said posts that have links. Once again what's your solution to the immigration issue? 

I did re-read it. I quoted your exact words. Nobody is interested in unsubstantiated, broad sweeping generalizations ungrounded in logic or facts.

The immigration issue is a tough one. The point of the problem is at the border, but the root of the problem is back in the potential immigrants' home country: strife with problems that developed countries have helped create given the level of exploitation which exists there in various forms.

In the state of Washington, I see many Mexican people each year as I travel to the Gorge to attend DMB. My experience with them is they are very family oriented, very friendly, and hard working. If properly vetted I'm not sure why Hispanic/Mexican people wouldn't be considered valuable additions to any country? The white people I see driving around in trucks with other white people in the back of those trucks sitting in old sofas appear to be much bigger candidates for hindering the country's progress.

Here's a potential solution: maybe you guys could work out some trades? Maybe instead of fantasy football... you guys play fantasy country and find some weak owner (country) to trade a big, massive clump of overrated white guys for some Hispanic people with massive upsides?

I'll take Chile; that country makes some kick ass wine.

Halifax2TheMax

LongestRoad said:

brianlux said:

unsung said:

And most normal people would blame the parents for putting those kids in that situation.

unsung said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

unsung said:

And most normal people would blame the parents for putting those kids in that situation.

The counter-argument to this though is that not all of these parents are trying to illegally immigrate. Many come seeking asylum from oppressive governments like Guatemala. Since Trump is obviously against that sort of thing, those people should just be turned away, not detained.

And those countries all have US embassies where asylum can be obtained.

Heather Cox Richardson, a professor at Boston University, posted an article of Face book that addresses these issue.  Keys points in bold:

Trump began his presidential campaign by calling Mexican immigrants criminals and rapists, and Attorney General Jeff Sessions has said that the new policy of separating children from their parents will deter illegal immigrants. Then, today Trump tweeted that our immigration problems come from Democrats, who "don’t care about crime and want illegal immigrants, no matter how bad they may be, to pour into and infest our Country." Trump is tangling up our long history of Mexican immigration with a new, startling trend of refugees from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras, and then blaming Democrats for coddling criminals.

Let's untangle this mess:

First, problems with Mexican immigration stem not from Democratic softness on crime, but from a bipartisan 1965 law that reworked America's immigration laws. The story behind the 1965 law is this: Congress had passed the nation's first comprehensive immigration law in 1924. That law limited immigration according to quotas assigned to each country. Those countries were heavily weighted toward western Europe, virtually prohibiting immigration from Asia and Africa, and dramatically curtailing it from southern Europe.

That law did not monitor immigration from Latin America at all, for the simple reason that from the time the current border was set in 1848 until the 1930s, people moved back and forth across it without restrictions. Laborers, especially, came from Mexico to work on the huge American farms that dominate our agricultural sector, especially after 1907, when the Japanese workers who had been taking over those jobs were (unofficially) kept out of the country. Then the government encouraged immigration during WWI, to help increase production.

The Depression, when the bottom fell out of the economy, coupled with the Dust Bowl, when the bottom fell out of the western plains, made destitute westerners turn on Mexican migrants, (as well as on their poor white neighbors, as John Steinbeck wrote about in The Grapes of Wrath). The government rounded up Mexicans and shipped them back over the border.

World War II made migrant laborers vital again, and to regularize the system, the US government in 1942 started a guest worker policy called the "Bracero" Program. It was supposed to guarantee that migrant workers were well treated, paid, and housed adequately. But employers happily hired illegal as well as legal workers, and American workers complained. President Eisenhower returned about a million illegal workers in 1954 under "Operation Wetback," only to have officials readmit most of them as braceros. Under pressure both from labor and from reformers who recognized that the system was exploitive, President Kennedy initiated the process that ended the Bracero program in 1964.

The end of that system coincided with congressional reworking of the 1924 immigration act. In the midst of the Vietnam War and the Civil Rights Movement, Congress wanted to end the racial quota system of immigration and replace it with one that did not so obviously discriminate against Asia and Africa. The 1965 Hart-Celler Act opened immigration to all nations, setting a general cap on total immigration levels. But southern congressmen, appalled at the idea of black immigration, introduced a provision that privileged family migration, arguing that "family unification" should be the nation's top priority. They expected that old-stock immigrants from western Europe would use the provision to bring over their relatives, which would keep the effect of the 1924 law without the statute. But, of course, their provision had the opposite effect. It was new immigrants who wanted to bring their families; not old ones. So immigration began to skew heavily toward Asia and Latin America.

At the same time, Hart-Celler put a cap on Latin American immigration for the first time, just as the guest worker program ended. The cap was low: 20,000, although 50,000 workers were coming annually at that point. And American agribusiness depended on migrant labor. Workers continued to come as they always had, and to be employed, as always. But now their presence was illegal. In 1986, Congress tried to fix the problem by offering amnesty to 2.3 million Mexicans who were living in the United States and by cracking down on employers who hired undocumented workers. But rather than ending the problem of undocumented workers, the new law exacerbated it by beginning the process of guarding and militarizing the border. Until then, migrants into the United States had been offset by an equal number leaving at the end of the season. Once the border became heavily guarded, Mexican migrants refused to take the chance of leaving.

Since 1986, US politicians have refused to deal with this disconnect, which grew in the 1990s when NAFTA flooded Mexico with US corn and drove Mexican farmers to find work, largely in the American Southeast. But this "problem" is hardly either new nor suddenly catastrophic. While about 6 million undocumented Mexicans currently live in the United States, most of them- 78%- are long-term residents, here more than ten years. Only 7% have lived here less than five years. (This is a much more stable ratio than undocumented immigrants from any other country.) And since 2007, the number of Mexicans living illegally in the United States has declined by more than a million. The Mexican economy is good enough that more Mexicans are leaving America these days than coming.

So undocumented Mexican "criminals and rapists" are not really the issue at hand.

What is happening right now at America's southern border is not really about Mexicans at all. It is a relatively new issue, which began around 2014. The people now arriving at our border, where children are separated from their parents, are generally from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras, where "warlike levels of violence" are creating refugees. They are not sneaking over the border, they are refugees applying for asylum, which is legal in the United States. And while we are trying to stop them by taking their children, researchers say that, while it is possible to discourage economic migrants-- like most Mexicans-- no deterrent will stop migrant refugees, for they are fleeing death.

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

You do realize that the crime rate from immigrants is lower than native born, right? Of course you don’t.

Halifax2TheMax

LongestRoad said:

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

Number one don'tcompare me to him. You far left liberals love twisting peoples words to fit your agenda. You also conveniently ignore posts that have links to back up non far left liberal views. I see it over and over again in this thread. LOL
I asked the question what is your solution?

I’m still waiting on a link. Please post your links, Please.
 

josevolution

LongestRoad said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

LongestRoad said:

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

Number one don'tcompare me to him. You far left liberals love twisting peoples words to fit your agenda. You also conveniently ignore posts that have links to back up non far left liberal views. I see it over and over again in this thread. LOL
I asked the question what is your solution?

Well no shit they 'ignore posts that have no links to back up non far left liberal views'.

Why the f**k would anyone entertain a figment of someone's imagination? Bring something legitimate to the table and then discuss- not some hokey pokey view of the world developed over a few Coors at the landfill shootin' shit.

Come on, man.

You should re read what I wrote. I said posts that have links. Once again what's your solution to the immigration issue? 

Separating toddlers & infants from parents is not the answer so just take that off the table ..

josevolution

Yep parents are being deported without their children holy fuck I’m sick thinking about this fucking ugly mess created by this idiot racist human, i can’t believe they actually did this on purpose it’s evil and if you support this man we are no longer friends I’d rather be with an animal than with Baffoon supporter !!!!!

brianlux

LongestRoad said:

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

brianlux said:

LongestRoad said:

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

Are you just making shit up as you go?

"bitching?"  You call having strong feelings and opinions about atrocious treatment of children as "bitching"? 

As for no solutions- I and others her have made suggestions. 

Spiritual_Chaos said:

LongestRoad said:

no solutions. 

Isn't like a big part of your economy built on "immigrants"?

And is there data to show that immigrants make up more of the crime than people born in the US?

To me your post sounds like:

I agree- that's exactly what it sounds like.

Number one don'tcompare me to him. You far left liberals love twisting peoples words to fit your agenda. You also conveniently ignore posts that have links to back up non far left liberal views. I see it over and over again in this thread. LOL
I asked the question what is your solution?

Fair enough and my apologies.  Comparisons are a) unfair, b) personal and against the rules.  My bad.

Solutions (yet again):

If the person is seeking political asylum (it's amazing how this keeps getting overlooked) help them make that tradition.  I think that is a FAR more reasonable solution than whisking their kids off, don't you.

End the stupid fucking drug war.  (I know I use the F word too often lately but the drug was really is fucking stupid.)  The drug war is not working.  It is creating more criminals.  Decriminalize/ legalize ALL drugs.  That's right, all.  Users will use, legal or not.  This is well known.

Have the U.S. spend less money on an offensive military, maintain a good defensive military and use some of the money saved to develop programs to help other countries become strong and independent.  But no, Americans don't think like that.  Look how we solve our own problems with crime.  Do we get to the root of the problem of why there is so much crime?  No, that's too logical.  We go the lazy route and build more prisons (and develop a larger prisoner work force.  Hmmm.)

Educate the American voting population so that we will stop electing clueless Bozos who don't have a clue.  Problems are only exacerbated by incompetent elected officials. 

I've said all this before a number of times.  Please don't ask again.  Thank you.

LongestRoad

lol once again halifaxtothemax you're twisting words. 

Halifax2TheMax

LongestRoad said:

lol once again halifaxtothemax you're twisting words. 

How so?

josevolution

Halifax2TheMax said:

LongestRoad said:

lol once again halifaxtothemax you're twisting words. 

How so?

He’s got you confused with brianlux

Halifax2TheMax

LongestRoad said:

lol once again halifaxtothemax you're twisting words. 

Care to quote what words I’ve twisted or are you afraid of facts?

LongestRoad

Halifax2TheMax said:

LongestRoad said:

brianlux said:

unsung said:

And most normal people would blame the parents for putting those kids in that situation.

unsung said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

unsung said:

And most normal people would blame the parents for putting those kids in that situation.

The counter-argument to this though is that not all of these parents are trying to illegally immigrate. Many come seeking asylum from oppressive governments like Guatemala. Since Trump is obviously against that sort of thing, those people should just be turned away, not detained.

And those countries all have US embassies where asylum can be obtained.

Heather Cox Richardson, a professor at Boston University, posted an article of Face book that addresses these issue.  Keys points in bold:

Trump began his presidential campaign by calling Mexican immigrants criminals and rapists, and Attorney General Jeff Sessions has said that the new policy of separating children from their parents will deter illegal immigrants. Then, today Trump tweeted that our immigration problems come from Democrats, who "don’t care about crime and want illegal immigrants, no matter how bad they may be, to pour into and infest our Country." Trump is tangling up our long history of Mexican immigration with a new, startling trend of refugees from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras, and then blaming Democrats for coddling criminals.

Let's untangle this mess:

First, problems with Mexican immigration stem not from Democratic softness on crime, but from a bipartisan 1965 law that reworked America's immigration laws. The story behind the 1965 law is this: Congress had passed the nation's first comprehensive immigration law in 1924. That law limited immigration according to quotas assigned to each country. Those countries were heavily weighted toward western Europe, virtually prohibiting immigration from Asia and Africa, and dramatically curtailing it from southern Europe.

That law did not monitor immigration from Latin America at all, for the simple reason that from the time the current border was set in 1848 until the 1930s, people moved back and forth across it without restrictions. Laborers, especially, came from Mexico to work on the huge American farms that dominate our agricultural sector, especially after 1907, when the Japanese workers who had been taking over those jobs were (unofficially) kept out of the country. Then the government encouraged immigration during WWI, to help increase production.

The Depression, when the bottom fell out of the economy, coupled with the Dust Bowl, when the bottom fell out of the western plains, made destitute westerners turn on Mexican migrants, (as well as on their poor white neighbors, as John Steinbeck wrote about in The Grapes of Wrath). The government rounded up Mexicans and shipped them back over the border.

World War II made migrant laborers vital again, and to regularize the system, the US government in 1942 started a guest worker policy called the "Bracero" Program. It was supposed to guarantee that migrant workers were well treated, paid, and housed adequately. But employers happily hired illegal as well as legal workers, and American workers complained. President Eisenhower returned about a million illegal workers in 1954 under "Operation Wetback," only to have officials readmit most of them as braceros. Under pressure both from labor and from reformers who recognized that the system was exploitive, President Kennedy initiated the process that ended the Bracero program in 1964.

The end of that system coincided with congressional reworking of the 1924 immigration act. In the midst of the Vietnam War and the Civil Rights Movement, Congress wanted to end the racial quota system of immigration and replace it with one that did not so obviously discriminate against Asia and Africa. The 1965 Hart-Celler Act opened immigration to all nations, setting a general cap on total immigration levels. But southern congressmen, appalled at the idea of black immigration, introduced a provision that privileged family migration, arguing that "family unification" should be the nation's top priority. They expected that old-stock immigrants from western Europe would use the provision to bring over their relatives, which would keep the effect of the 1924 law without the statute. But, of course, their provision had the opposite effect. It was new immigrants who wanted to bring their families; not old ones. So immigration began to skew heavily toward Asia and Latin America.

At the same time, Hart-Celler put a cap on Latin American immigration for the first time, just as the guest worker program ended. The cap was low: 20,000, although 50,000 workers were coming annually at that point. And American agribusiness depended on migrant labor. Workers continued to come as they always had, and to be employed, as always. But now their presence was illegal. In 1986, Congress tried to fix the problem by offering amnesty to 2.3 million Mexicans who were living in the United States and by cracking down on employers who hired undocumented workers. But rather than ending the problem of undocumented workers, the new law exacerbated it by beginning the process of guarding and militarizing the border. Until then, migrants into the United States had been offset by an equal number leaving at the end of the season. Once the border became heavily guarded, Mexican migrants refused to take the chance of leaving.

Since 1986, US politicians have refused to deal with this disconnect, which grew in the 1990s when NAFTA flooded Mexico with US corn and drove Mexican farmers to find work, largely in the American Southeast. But this "problem" is hardly either new nor suddenly catastrophic. While about 6 million undocumented Mexicans currently live in the United States, most of them- 78%- are long-term residents, here more than ten years. Only 7% have lived here less than five years. (This is a much more stable ratio than undocumented immigrants from any other country.) And since 2007, the number of Mexicans living illegally in the United States has declined by more than a million. The Mexican economy is good enough that more Mexicans are leaving America these days than coming.

So undocumented Mexican "criminals and rapists" are not really the issue at hand.

What is happening right now at America's southern border is not really about Mexicans at all. It is a relatively new issue, which began around 2014. The people now arriving at our border, where children are separated from their parents, are generally from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras, where "warlike levels of violence" are creating refugees. They are not sneaking over the border, they are refugees applying for asylum, which is legal in the United States. And while we are trying to stop them by taking their children, researchers say that, while it is possible to discourage economic migrants-- like most Mexicans-- no deterrent will stop migrant refugees, for they are fleeing death.

the criminals and rapists are what cause this problem. People fear that along with the good people that cross the border the criminals will also be allowed and were allowed under the previous administration. That's why the drugs and crime from the gangs increased. We have to make sure the immigrants entering are not criminals or terrorists. Once again, I agree that immigrants have been conveniently allowed into the country when needed. I would love to hear what you all would do to bring in immigrants without our countries economy collapsing? There is so much bitching about it but no solutions. 

You do realize that the crime rate from immigrants is lower than native born, right? Of course you don’t.

LongestRoad

the response above is twisting my words