14 years and counting...

CM189191

mcgruff10 said:

CM189191 said:

CM189191 said:

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJPOWER said:

CM189191 said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

I'm not sure how anyone could not be okay with ensuring that the youth in America get a good education so that they can contribute to the success of America later.

“good education”...so you want them to go to private schools? Lol, I kid, I kid! 

“private schools”...so you want them to grow up to be little terrorists like Sandsmann and Kavanaugh? Lol, I kid, I kid! 

Obviously kidding if you consider them “terrorists”.

Perhaps you’d prefer “culture warrior?” Lol!

Surely you can’t agree with giving money to illegal immigrants before actual citizens?

Sure why not? They spend it better, that's ROI.

And they probably need it more....

Giving it to citizens just perpetuates the cycle of poverty.  Definitely better to give to immigrants. 

Legal immigrants sure, illegal....no. Illegal is illegal so why are we awarding anything to illegal? 

Who's awarding anything?

It's a cost benefit analysis.  Like offering rehab to a drug addict.  Sure they may have done something illegal, but does punishment really fix the problem?  Or is there a way to turn a bad situation into a good one?  

PJPOWER

mace1229 said:

mcgruff10 said:

CM189191 said:

CM189191 said:

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJPOWER said:

CM189191 said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

I'm not sure how anyone could not be okay with ensuring that the youth in America get a good education so that they can contribute to the success of America later.

“good education”...so you want them to go to private schools? Lol, I kid, I kid! 

“private schools”...so you want them to grow up to be little terrorists like Sandsmann and Kavanaugh? Lol, I kid, I kid! 

Obviously kidding if you consider them “terrorists”.

Perhaps you’d prefer “culture warrior?” Lol!

Surely you can’t agree with giving money to illegal immigrants before actual citizens?

Sure why not? They spend it better, that's ROI.

And they probably need it more....

Giving it to citizens just perpetuates the cycle of poverty.  Definitely better to give to immigrants. 

Legal immigrants sure, illegal....no. Illegal is illegal so why are we awarding anything to illegal? 

Agree. If we sytart handing out scholarships just because someone is an immigrant or illegal ,it would be hard to imagine that wouldn't just promote more illegal immigration.
As for legal immigrants, they should be treated the same. Not given preference or excluded. I believe you need to be a resident for 2 years to qualify for in-state tuition. It only makes sense to apply that to everyone, not just citizens.

Exactly, illegal immigration should be discouraged, not rewarded.  Come here, get your identification, start working and paying taxes, then you can reap the rewards of the tax funded programs.

mrussel1

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

CM189191 said:

CM189191 said:

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJPOWER said:

CM189191 said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

I'm not sure how anyone could not be okay with ensuring that the youth in America get a good education so that they can contribute to the success of America later.

“good education”...so you want them to go to private schools? Lol, I kid, I kid! 

“private schools”...so you want them to grow up to be little terrorists like Sandsmann and Kavanaugh? Lol, I kid, I kid! 

Obviously kidding if you consider them “terrorists”.

Perhaps you’d prefer “culture warrior?” Lol!

Surely you can’t agree with giving money to illegal immigrants before actual citizens?

Sure why not? They spend it better, that's ROI.

And they probably need it more....

Giving it to citizens just perpetuates the cycle of poverty.  Definitely better to give to immigrants. 

Legal immigrants sure, illegal....no. Illegal is illegal so why are we awarding anything to illegal? 

Who's awarding anything?

It's a cost benefit analysis.  Like offering rehab to a drug addict.  Sure they may have done something illegal, but does punishment really fix the problem?  Or is there a way to turn a bad situation into a good one?  

The problem is layered to me.  Providing a service (non-humanitarian in this case) to someone who is an illegal immigrant is problematic.  the reason is because they did not pay into the tax system that is supporting the service.  By definition, an illegal immigrant cannot pay the full range of taxes.  Food, shelter, medical services are different because I feel there's a moral obligation there.  There isn't a moral obligation to provide college assistance to the same person.  

mace1229

I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument.
Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. 
According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever

So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate.
As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive? 

Thirty Bills Unpaid

mace1229 said:

I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument.
Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. 
According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever

So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate.
As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive? 

I think people are getting smarter about colleges and universities.

The payoff isn't there anymore for most degree programs.

Trades programs are a much greater investment.

PJPOWER

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mace1229 said:

I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument.
Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. 
According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever

So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate.
As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive? 

I think people are getting smarter about colleges and universities.

The payoff isn't there anymore for most degree programs.

Trades programs are a much greater investment.

Having huge college debts is usually related to making poor financial decisions in my opinion. I knew so many people that refused to work during college and took out the maximum amount of loan money they could to pay for living, eating, parting, etc.  Get a job ya freakin losers, lol. Not to mention that the college that you go to and the degree program you choose are all CHOICES.  There are plenty of ways to get through college debt free or with minimum debt.  “But I want to be a doctor” is no excuse for taking out $100,000 in loans.  No one to blame but yourself and your CHOICES.  I agree, trade programs usually have way better payout.  The people that I know that went to the community college for skills like welding or being airplane mechanics have ended up way better financially than the ones that went to expensive colleges.

Halifax2TheMax

mace1229 said:

I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument.
Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. 
According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever

So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate.
As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive? 

Myth #1: Immigrants take more from the U.S. government than they contribute

Fact: Immigrants contribute more in tax revenue than they take in government benefits

First-generation immigrants cost the government more than native-born Americans, according to the report — about $1,600 per person annually. But second generation immigrants are “among the strongest fiscal and economic contributors in the U.S.,” the report found. They contribute about $1,700 per person per year. All other native-born Americans, including third generation immigrants, contribute $1,300 per year on average.

Fact: Immigrants workers often take jobs that boost other parts of the economy

Immigrants make up 17 percent of the U.S. labor force, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, but few experts believe they’re taking jobs from Americans, as Trump claims.

“Most economists agree that in spite of being a very big part of the labor force, immigrants have not come at the cost either of American jobs, nor of American wages,” Peri, the UC Davis professor, said.

A study from the bipartisan research organization New American Economy found immigrants were 15 percent more likely to work unusual hours than similar U.S.-born workers. They are also more likely to be employed in dangerous jobs, according to data from the American Community Survey and Bureau of Statistics.

Immigrants fill those roles in part because they are on average less educated than native-born Americans. About 26 percent have less than a high school degree, compared to 5 percent of native-born workers, according to the Urban Institute. But one in three immigrant workers have a college or advanced degree, a rate on par with Americans born here. Unauthorized immigrants tend to have slightly lower education levels; about 13 percent have college degrees.

Myth #3: The U.S. economy does not need immigrants

Fact: Immigrants are key to offsetting a falling birth rate

The U.S. birth rate is 1.8 births per woman, down from 3.65 in 1960, according to the World Bank. Demographers consider 2.1 births per woman as the rate needed to replace the existing population.

According to the Pew Research Center, if not for immigrants, the U.S. workforce would be shrinking. That would create a host of problems for the federal government.

Social Security, which is paid for by current workers, would be in even more serious budgetary trouble than it already is. Economic growth would also likely stagnate or even contract, as it has in Japan, a country where the population is shrinking and does not attract many immigrants.

Automation can buttress economic growth for a while, but investment in new technology only goes so far, said Betsey Stevenson, an associate professor of economics at the University of Michigan.

Plus, immigrants increase demand for goods and services, which further boosts economic growth, she added.

Myth #4: It would be better for the economy if immigrants’ children were not citizens

Fact: Children with citizenship are more productive workers

A Migration Policy Institute analysis estimates the number of unauthorized immigrants would increase from 11 million to 16 million by 2050 if birthright citizenship were repealed.

“Over the course of decades, you’d end up with a growing population that is cut off from the rest of society because they live in fear of deportation and they can’t get jobs,” said Randy Capps, the director of research for U.S. programs at the Migration Policy Institute.

Take, for example, the population of so-called “Dreamers” who were brought to the U.S. illegally as children. One study estimated the U.S. is losing out on $15 billion in economic potential from that group because they often face problems getting into college and getting a job.

An experiment in Germany, which does not have birthright citizenship, also showed that when children of immigrants were given citizenship at birth, those children experienced better health outcomes and had fewer children of their own.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/making-sense/4-myths-about-how-immigrants-affect-the-u-s-economy

Halifax2TheMax

mace1229 said:

I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument.
Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. 
According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever

So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate.
As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive? 

Imagine what life would be like for those family members that didn't receive the $70 billion? Are you against making life better in other parts of the world so folks don't have to be so desperate to travel thousands of miles to escape poverty and violence? And unless they're buying cars, gas, groceries, utilities, cable, clothes, and everything else that the average person buys on the black market, then yes, they are paying taxes. And probably also into social security and fed and state taxes if they're working with a fake SS#, money they'll never get back in tax returns or retirement. Do you think all those folks in the back of the house restaurant chains are being paid in cash? And another myth, immigrants, on average, are more law abiding and commit less crimes than native born. Who's the burden?

CM189191

mrussel1 said:

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

CM189191 said:

CM189191 said:

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJPOWER said:

CM189191 said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

I'm not sure how anyone could not be okay with ensuring that the youth in America get a good education so that they can contribute to the success of America later.

“good education”...so you want them to go to private schools? Lol, I kid, I kid! 

“private schools”...so you want them to grow up to be little terrorists like Sandsmann and Kavanaugh? Lol, I kid, I kid! 

Obviously kidding if you consider them “terrorists”.

Perhaps you’d prefer “culture warrior?” Lol!

Surely you can’t agree with giving money to illegal immigrants before actual citizens?

Sure why not? They spend it better, that's ROI.

And they probably need it more....

Giving it to citizens just perpetuates the cycle of poverty.  Definitely better to give to immigrants. 

Legal immigrants sure, illegal....no. Illegal is illegal so why are we awarding anything to illegal? 

Who's awarding anything?

It's a cost benefit analysis.  Like offering rehab to a drug addict.  Sure they may have done something illegal, but does punishment really fix the problem?  Or is there a way to turn a bad situation into a good one?  

The problem is layered to me.  Providing a service (non-humanitarian in this case) to someone who is an illegal immigrant is problematic.  the reason is because they did not pay into the tax system that is supporting the service.  By definition, an illegal immigrant cannot pay the full range of taxes.  Food, shelter, medical services are different because I feel there's a moral obligation there.  There isn't a moral obligation to provide college assistance to the same person.  

There isn't?  Why not? 

Isn't it enough  as a society to decide we want to spread knowledge and educate as many people as are willing?

mace1229

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument.
Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. 
According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever

So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate.
As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive? 

Imagine what life would be like for those family members that didn't receive the $70 billion? Are you against making life better in other parts of the world so folks don't have to be so desperate to travel thousands of miles to escape poverty and violence? And unless they're buying cars, gas, groceries, utilities, cable, clothes, and everything else that the average person buys on the black market, then yes, they are paying taxes. And probably also into social security and fed and state taxes if they're working with a fake SS#, money they'll never get back in tax returns or retirement. Do you think all those folks in the back of the house restaurant chains are being paid in cash? And another myth, immigrants, on average, are more law abiding and commit less crimes than native born. Who's the burden?

No I am not. I can't imagine what their life must be like to feel better off moving to another country and sending a large portion of what you make back home to the family that was unable to join you. It must be very difficult.
I never disputed any of those myth/fact bullet points you listed, I never said they take more from the government than they give. But none of those points addresses the fact that $70 billion a year, and growing, is sent down south.
That fact was strictly in response to the several comments I saw that stated "but they come here and work and that money goes back into the economy. It isn't costing our economy anything" Because a lot of it does not, and it does cost our economy $70 billion. All those other facts you pointed out can still be true, and they can still send $70 billion out of our economy every year. And I doubt a penny of that is taxed (at least not in this country). But yes, all the money they spend here will have sales tax. No one has denied that.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

CM189191 said:

mrussel1 said:

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

CM189191 said:

CM189191 said:

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJPOWER said:

CM189191 said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

I'm not sure how anyone could not be okay with ensuring that the youth in America get a good education so that they can contribute to the success of America later.

“good education”...so you want them to go to private schools? Lol, I kid, I kid! 

“private schools”...so you want them to grow up to be little terrorists like Sandsmann and Kavanaugh? Lol, I kid, I kid! 

Obviously kidding if you consider them “terrorists”.

Perhaps you’d prefer “culture warrior?” Lol!

Surely you can’t agree with giving money to illegal immigrants before actual citizens?

Sure why not? They spend it better, that's ROI.

And they probably need it more....

Giving it to citizens just perpetuates the cycle of poverty.  Definitely better to give to immigrants. 

Legal immigrants sure, illegal....no. Illegal is illegal so why are we awarding anything to illegal? 

Who's awarding anything?

It's a cost benefit analysis.  Like offering rehab to a drug addict.  Sure they may have done something illegal, but does punishment really fix the problem?  Or is there a way to turn a bad situation into a good one?  

The problem is layered to me.  Providing a service (non-humanitarian in this case) to someone who is an illegal immigrant is problematic.  the reason is because they did not pay into the tax system that is supporting the service.  By definition, an illegal immigrant cannot pay the full range of taxes.  Food, shelter, medical services are different because I feel there's a moral obligation there.  There isn't a moral obligation to provide college assistance to the same person.  

There isn't?  Why not? 

Isn't it enough  as a society to decide we want to spread knowledge and educate as many people as are willing?

Because given the reality... that's a stretch.

Your country refuses to treat its sick unless they can pay. Your country has a massive homelessness problem. Poverty is a feature of it as well. It's quite a leap to think it should pay for internationals' college education when the aforementioned are as prevalent as they are.

That being said... the cure to cancer might exist within an illegal immigrant. If they show exceptional aptitude (performance in the classroom)... I am in favour of developing that resource. I just don't know how you can make that leap?

Halifax2TheMax

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument.
Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. 
According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever

So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate.
As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive? 

Imagine what life would be like for those family members that didn't receive the $70 billion? Are you against making life better in other parts of the world so folks don't have to be so desperate to travel thousands of miles to escape poverty and violence? And unless they're buying cars, gas, groceries, utilities, cable, clothes, and everything else that the average person buys on the black market, then yes, they are paying taxes. And probably also into social security and fed and state taxes if they're working with a fake SS#, money they'll never get back in tax returns or retirement. Do you think all those folks in the back of the house restaurant chains are being paid in cash? And another myth, immigrants, on average, are more law abiding and commit less crimes than native born. Who's the burden?

No I am not. I can't imagine what their life must be like to feel better off moving to another country and sending a large portion of what you make back home to the family that was unable to join you. It must be very difficult.
I never disputed any of those myth/fact bullet points you listed, I never said they take more from the government than they give. But none of those points addresses the fact that $70 billion a year, and growing, is sent down south.
That fact was strictly in response to the several comments I saw that stated "but they come here and work and that money goes back into the economy. It isn't costing our economy anything" Because a lot of it does not, and it does cost our economy $70 billion. All those other facts you pointed out can still be true, and they can still send $70 billion out of our economy every year. And I doubt a penny of that is taxed (at least not in this country). But yes, all the money they spend here will have sales tax. No one has denied that.

But you pivoted from "they shouldn't get college benefits because they don't contribute to the cost," to "they send $70 billion home." What percentage of what they earn and put into the economy, for all the reasons in the facts, must they earn to be able to send $70BB home? And where does that money go? How much money does corporate America send off shore to avoid taxes? And how much came back with the $1.5T tax give away?

I really think it riles people that someone can come here with nothing and within a generation be doing better than the native born, because they work hard, go to church, find their strength in their family values, pull themselves up by their boot straps and become successful. You would think they'd be a natural for the repub party but they just keep shitting on them.

mrussel1

CM189191 said:

mrussel1 said:

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

CM189191 said:

CM189191 said:

CM189191 said:

mcgruff10 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

PJPOWER said:

CM189191 said:

PJPOWER said:

PJ_Soul said:

I'm not sure how anyone could not be okay with ensuring that the youth in America get a good education so that they can contribute to the success of America later.

“good education”...so you want them to go to private schools? Lol, I kid, I kid! 

“private schools”...so you want them to grow up to be little terrorists like Sandsmann and Kavanaugh? Lol, I kid, I kid! 

Obviously kidding if you consider them “terrorists”.

Perhaps you’d prefer “culture warrior?” Lol!

Surely you can’t agree with giving money to illegal immigrants before actual citizens?

Sure why not? They spend it better, that's ROI.

And they probably need it more....

Giving it to citizens just perpetuates the cycle of poverty.  Definitely better to give to immigrants. 

Legal immigrants sure, illegal....no. Illegal is illegal so why are we awarding anything to illegal? 

Who's awarding anything?

It's a cost benefit analysis.  Like offering rehab to a drug addict.  Sure they may have done something illegal, but does punishment really fix the problem?  Or is there a way to turn a bad situation into a good one?  

The problem is layered to me.  Providing a service (non-humanitarian in this case) to someone who is an illegal immigrant is problematic.  the reason is because they did not pay into the tax system that is supporting the service.  By definition, an illegal immigrant cannot pay the full range of taxes.  Food, shelter, medical services are different because I feel there's a moral obligation there.  There isn't a moral obligation to provide college assistance to the same person.  

There isn't?  Why not? 

Isn't it enough  as a society to decide we want to spread knowledge and educate as many people as are willing?

No, I don't think there's a moral obligation for post hs education.  I think it's a practical necessity to optimize one's life (I disagree with the post that college payoff isn't there... I think it is when managed properly), but you don't need college to be able to feed and clothe your family.  I would only support that for legal immigrants.  But keep in mind I'm very supportive of realistic paths to citizenship.  

mrussel1

PJPOWER said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mace1229 said:

I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument.
Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. 
According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever

So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate.
As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive? 

I think people are getting smarter about colleges and universities.

The payoff isn't there anymore for most degree programs.

Trades programs are a much greater investment.

Having huge college debts is usually related to making poor financial decisions in my opinion. I knew so many people that refused to work during college and took out the maximum amount of loan money they could to pay for living, eating, parting, etc.  Get a job ya freakin losers, lol. Not to mention that the college that you go to and the degree program you choose are all CHOICES.  There are plenty of ways to get through college debt free or with minimum debt.  “But I want to be a doctor” is no excuse for taking out $100,000 in loans.  No one to blame but yourself and your CHOICES.  I agree, trade programs usually have way better payout.  The people that I know that went to the community college for skills like welding or being airplane mechanics have ended up way better financially than the ones that went to expensive colleges.

It's impossible to measure ROI of a degree because of the precise choices people make in the process.  Some choose private schools, out of state schools, English degrees, etc.  Throw in the variable of a person's actual work ethic, ability to work well with others, charisma and now you can't control any assessment.  All of these have real influence on whether the degree works for someone or not.  
But there is no convincing me that a person who goes 2 years to JUCO, xfers in state, and gets a degree of an 'in demand' field (nursing, computer science, engineering, etc.) isn't better set up long term vs one that chooses to be a HVAC tech.  

PJPOWER

mrussel1 said:

PJPOWER said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mace1229 said:

I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument.
Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. 
According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever

So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate.
As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive? 

I think people are getting smarter about colleges and universities.

The payoff isn't there anymore for most degree programs.

Trades programs are a much greater investment.

Having huge college debts is usually related to making poor financial decisions in my opinion. I knew so many people that refused to work during college and took out the maximum amount of loan money they could to pay for living, eating, parting, etc.  Get a job ya freakin losers, lol. Not to mention that the college that you go to and the degree program you choose are all CHOICES.  There are plenty of ways to get through college debt free or with minimum debt.  “But I want to be a doctor” is no excuse for taking out $100,000 in loans.  No one to blame but yourself and your CHOICES.  I agree, trade programs usually have way better payout.  The people that I know that went to the community college for skills like welding or being airplane mechanics have ended up way better financially than the ones that went to expensive colleges.

It's impossible to measure ROI of a degree because of the precise choices people make in the process.  Some choose private schools, out of state schools, English degrees, etc.  Throw in the variable of a person's actual work ethic, ability to work well with others, charisma and now you can't control any assessment.  All of these have real influence on whether the degree works for someone or not.  
But there is no convincing me that a person who goes 2 years to JUCO, xfers in state, and gets a degree of an 'in demand' field (nursing, computer science, engineering, etc.) isn't better set up long term vs one that chooses to be a HVAC tech.  

I agree for the most part, but there is nothing wrong with getting an HVAC tech degree to get a job that helps you to pay for a “better” degree.  And again, some of the welders and airplane mechanics around here make well more that people with higher level degrees.  But it absolutely boils down to personal responsibility and work ethic in most cases.  If you do not have a sense of either of those, life is most likely going to be hard regardless of the path you choose.

HesCalledDyer

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/anti-defamation-league-report-right-wing-extremists-2018-murders

Odd, I thought it was all these "illegals" running around.

mrussel1

PJPOWER said:

mrussel1 said:

PJPOWER said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

mace1229 said:

I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument.
Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. 
According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever

So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate.
As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive? 

I think people are getting smarter about colleges and universities.

The payoff isn't there anymore for most degree programs.

Trades programs are a much greater investment.

Having huge college debts is usually related to making poor financial decisions in my opinion. I knew so many people that refused to work during college and took out the maximum amount of loan money they could to pay for living, eating, parting, etc.  Get a job ya freakin losers, lol. Not to mention that the college that you go to and the degree program you choose are all CHOICES.  There are plenty of ways to get through college debt free or with minimum debt.  “But I want to be a doctor” is no excuse for taking out $100,000 in loans.  No one to blame but yourself and your CHOICES.  I agree, trade programs usually have way better payout.  The people that I know that went to the community college for skills like welding or being airplane mechanics have ended up way better financially than the ones that went to expensive colleges.

It's impossible to measure ROI of a degree because of the precise choices people make in the process.  Some choose private schools, out of state schools, English degrees, etc.  Throw in the variable of a person's actual work ethic, ability to work well with others, charisma and now you can't control any assessment.  All of these have real influence on whether the degree works for someone or not.  
But there is no convincing me that a person who goes 2 years to JUCO, xfers in state, and gets a degree of an 'in demand' field (nursing, computer science, engineering, etc.) isn't better set up long term vs one that chooses to be a HVAC tech.  

I agree for the most part, but there is nothing wrong with getting an HVAC tech degree to get a job that helps you to pay for a “better” degree.  And again, some of the welders and airplane mechanics around here make well more that people with higher level degrees.  But it absolutely boils down to personal responsibility and work ethic in most cases.  If you do not have a sense of either of those, life is going to be hard regardless of the path you choose.

Yes, and it comes down to what makes a person happy... working with their hands or not.  You have to do what will satisfy you personally.  I have pushed hard on college from day one with my 3 kids.  I truly believe it is the best choice for MY children.  One is in college now and will graduate a year early (thank the Jesus) and I have a junior on his way (hopefully, if he gets his shit together).  But I set that expectation with all three from the beginning.  

Halifax2TheMax

HesCalledDyer said:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/anti-defamation-league-report-right-wing-extremists-2018-murders

Odd, I thought it was all these "illegals" running around.

Can we deport them?

cincybearcat

Halifax2TheMax said:

HesCalledDyer said:

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/anti-defamation-league-report-right-wing-extremists-2018-murders

Odd, I thought it was all these "illegals" running around.

Can we deport them?

Love to.  Where to is the problem.

mace1229

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

mace1229 said:

I don't buy the argument for illegal immigrants of "but they put money back into the economy and pay sales tax on everything" argument.
Because many don't. I always thought it was common knowledge that many, even most immigrant workers send a large portion of their money back home to help their families. 
According to NPR it was as much as $70 billion in just 2016.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/02/10/514172676/mexicans-in-the-u-s-are-sending-home-more-money-than-ever

So any argument that they are paying a fair share of taxes and putting money back into the economy just isn't true or accurate.
As others have said, I'm not against immigration. Just illegal immigration. And it also needs to be controlled. College is already competitive and expensive enough without expanding the pool. There's plenty of studies showing the impact that the stress has on getting into college has on kids. They take too many advanced/AP classes and spend too much time on school just to get a chance at getting in so they can accumulate 100k of debt in 4 years. Why make it more competitive and expensive? 

Imagine what life would be like for those family members that didn't receive the $70 billion? Are you against making life better in other parts of the world so folks don't have to be so desperate to travel thousands of miles to escape poverty and violence? And unless they're buying cars, gas, groceries, utilities, cable, clothes, and everything else that the average person buys on the black market, then yes, they are paying taxes. And probably also into social security and fed and state taxes if they're working with a fake SS#, money they'll never get back in tax returns or retirement. Do you think all those folks in the back of the house restaurant chains are being paid in cash? And another myth, immigrants, on average, are more law abiding and commit less crimes than native born. Who's the burden?

No I am not. I can't imagine what their life must be like to feel better off moving to another country and sending a large portion of what you make back home to the family that was unable to join you. It must be very difficult.
I never disputed any of those myth/fact bullet points you listed, I never said they take more from the government than they give. But none of those points addresses the fact that $70 billion a year, and growing, is sent down south.
That fact was strictly in response to the several comments I saw that stated "but they come here and work and that money goes back into the economy. It isn't costing our economy anything" Because a lot of it does not, and it does cost our economy $70 billion. All those other facts you pointed out can still be true, and they can still send $70 billion out of our economy every year. And I doubt a penny of that is taxed (at least not in this country). But yes, all the money they spend here will have sales tax. No one has denied that.

But you pivoted from "they shouldn't get college benefits because they don't contribute to the cost," to "they send $70 billion home." What percentage of what they earn and put into the economy, for all the reasons in the facts, must they earn to be able to send $70BB home? And where does that money go? How much money does corporate America send off shore to avoid taxes? And how much came back with the $1.5T tax give away?

I really think it riles people that someone can come here with nothing and within a generation be doing better than the native born, because they work hard, go to church, find their strength in their family values, pull themselves up by their boot straps and become successful. You would think they'd be a natural for the repub party but they just keep shitting on them.

My stance was not "they don't contribute."
My first, and only reason, was we don't take care of our own. Take care of our own first, then lets think about expanding. But when the average family is tens of thousands in debt, takes 20 years to pay off student loans, many families can;t afford health care, then why should we pay for others' education? Figure out how to take care of our own first.
You wouldn't want a broken, nearly homeless family to become foster parents. Why would you want that for the country?
Look how much debt we have, how much student loans we have, look at the homeless problem in nearly every major city. Solve that first. Because in reality, free education for others means higher costs for those who pay for it, and they already can't afford it.