MLB 2025 Season

mrussel1

EdsonNascimento said:

That was the greatest misuse of Analytics. 

Analytics is not the problem. It's the interpretation and use of them.    The best statistics do not predict isolated, independent incidents.  If it said 60% (I'm guessing it was less than that if anything), that means there's a whole bunch of situations they're the wrong decision to follow. The best leaders improve their outcomes by using the statistics then adjusting to the situation.

The stats weren't wrong. The user was.  

If you're following Analytics, Cash should be fired as he proved himself a poor leader when the team needed him the most.  It's exactly those decision points that separate success and failure.  Saying he should have been right more often than wrong doesn't suffice as he is highly unlikely to get into that exact situation again (Decisive game, World Championship, Ace throwing darts with no sign of tiring).

I'm pretty sure he won't be fired.  

HesCalledDyer

"Analytics" are ruining this sport.  This stupid shit almost cost my Cubbies in 2016 when Hendricks was dealing in Game 7 and Maddon pulled him after a 2-out walk in the 5th.  It absolutely, most definitely, without-a-doubt, 100% cost the Rays last night. 

When your starter is on pace to throw a fucking Maddux in a must-win game in the World Series, it is both an insult to said starter and Greg Maddux to pull him. Kevin Cash should be fired today.  Period.

mrussel1

HesCalledDyer said:

"Analytics" are ruining this sport.  This stupid shit almost cost my Cubbies in 2016 when Hendricks was dealing in Game 7 and Maddon pulled him after a 2-out walk in the 5th.  It absolutely, most definitely, without-a-doubt, 100% cost the Rays last night. 

When your starter is on pace to throw a fucking Maddux in a must-win game in the World Series, it is both an insult to said starter and Greg Maddux to pull him. Kevin Cash should be fired today.  Period.

I don't know if it cost them or not.  You have to score more than 1 run to beat the Dodgers.  

Ledbetterman10

tbergs said:

Ledbetterman10 said:

Here's how much things have changed...in the game 7 of the 1991 World Series (Jack Morris' 10-inning shutout masterpiece), the following occurred in the 8th inning, with the score tied 0-0.

-Morris gives up a single (which is what got Snell pulled in the 6th inning after 73 pitches)
-Morris gives up a double (runners now on second and third)
-Morris gets a weak grounder to 1st for an out (runner doesn't try to score)
-Intentional walk to load the bases
-Morris gets another weak grounder to 1st and they turn a double play

He'd go onto retire the side 1-2-3 in both the 9th and 10th innings, and the Twins scored in the bottom of the 10th to win 1-0. Morris threw 125 pitches. 

Now this is a bit of an extreme example. Two men on in 8th inning is a tough situation and it took balls to leave Morris in, and a masterful job by him to get out of it. But the point remains: if the pitcher is dealing in a World Series elimination game, ride with him as long as you can. 

I was thinking of this last night since that was my Twins team that took that Game 7 and it was a nail biter watching as an 11 year old. Jump ahead to now and my 11 year old son gets to see the shit show of what baseball games have become. No one trusts their ace to just deal anymore. It has changed the mentality and edge an ace pitcher can have in those situations. When you have to be out there wondering if 1 more hit or ball will be the end of your night even though you are doing great. We now have guys who specialize in being a set-up to the set-up guy or who are 1 batter dart throws to see if the analytics are correct. Really waters down the game and makes it less exciting.

Imagine if late in the football game, the coach pulled the starting QB because the back-up specialized in deep passes or bootlegs. In baseball though, it's just become part of the norm so no one really complains about it.

Edit: I feel like I also remember hearing that Morris wouldn't let TK pull him. Maybe I'm making that up or getting it mixed up with another pitcher/game.

Nevermind I found it:

Neither team posed much of a threat in the ninth, although Minnesota had two on with no outs before Atlanta turned a double play. After nine full innings, Kelly told Morris he was going to take him out, but after a dugout conference the decision was made to leave the 18-game winner on the mound.

“I want to know one thing: Who was going to take (Morris) out of this game? Who would have had the courage to say ‘Jack, you’re done’,” Twins outfielder Randy Bush asked Sports Illustrated. “I don’t think anyone would have done it. If it was (Tom Kelly), Jack would have punched him, kicked him – he might have killed him.”

And there's the difference. Back then, the manager discusses the situation with the pitcher, and takes that into consideration when making his decision. Now, a the decision is pre-ordained by a bunch of computer nerds. 

HesCalledDyer

mrussel1 said:

HesCalledDyer said:

"Analytics" are ruining this sport.  This stupid shit almost cost my Cubbies in 2016 when Hendricks was dealing in Game 7 and Maddon pulled him after a 2-out walk in the 5th.  It absolutely, most definitely, without-a-doubt, 100% cost the Rays last night. 

When your starter is on pace to throw a fucking Maddux in a must-win game in the World Series, it is both an insult to said starter and Greg Maddux to pull him. Kevin Cash should be fired today.  Period.

I don't know if it cost them or not.  You have to score more than 1 run to beat the Dodgers.  

You only need score 1 more run than the Dodgers.  Snell was in total command of that.

mrussel1

HesCalledDyer said:

mrussel1 said:

HesCalledDyer said:

"Analytics" are ruining this sport.  This stupid shit almost cost my Cubbies in 2016 when Hendricks was dealing in Game 7 and Maddon pulled him after a 2-out walk in the 5th.  It absolutely, most definitely, without-a-doubt, 100% cost the Rays last night. 

When your starter is on pace to throw a fucking Maddux in a must-win game in the World Series, it is both an insult to said starter and Greg Maddux to pull him. Kevin Cash should be fired today.  Period.

I don't know if it cost them or not.  You have to score more than 1 run to beat the Dodgers.  

You only need score 1 more run than the Dodgers.  Snell was in total command of that.

Yes,  but third time through,  etc.  Rays still only scored 1.

cutz

I watched because it's baseball but I really wasn't into it like I usually am.  They didn't even play half a season's worth of games, including playoffs, so that has something to do with not being into it. 

mfc2006

HesCalledDyer said:

"Analytics" are ruining this sport.  This stupid shit almost cost my Cubbies in 2016 when Hendricks was dealing in Game 7 and Maddon pulled him after a 2-out walk in the 5th.  It absolutely, most definitely, without-a-doubt, 100% cost the Rays last night. 

When your starter is on pace to throw a fucking Maddux in a must-win game in the World Series, it is both an insult to said starter and Greg Maddux to pull him. Kevin Cash should be fired today.  Period.

Same thing happened with Grienke in last years WS. He should’ve stayed in. 

EdsonNascimento

mrussel1 said:

EdsonNascimento said:

That was the greatest misuse of Analytics. 

Analytics is not the problem. It's the interpretation and use of them.    The best statistics do not predict isolated, independent incidents.  If it said 60% (I'm guessing it was less than that if anything), that means there's a whole bunch of situations they're the wrong decision to follow. The best leaders improve their outcomes by using the statistics then adjusting to the situation.

The stats weren't wrong. The user was.  

If you're following Analytics, Cash should be fired as he proved himself a poor leader when the team needed him the most.  It's exactly those decision points that separate success and failure.  Saying he should have been right more often than wrong doesn't suffice as he is highly unlikely to get into that exact situation again (Decisive game, World Championship, Ace throwing darts with no sign of tiring).

I'm pretty sure he won't be fired.  

So I guess I shouldn’t have added the one thing I didn’t actually say.  Lol. Nobody expects him to be fired. 

xavier mcdaniel

Cash isn't getting fired but the process of that decision was bad. Snell at least deserved to face the top of the lineup another time, especially if the first reliever was someone who had been scored upon six straight outings.

MayDay10

Tony LaRussa as manager of the White Sox.  I did not expect that.  Fear the White Sox.

Cliffy6745

Tim Anderson and LaRussa seem like an odd couple...

F Me In The Brain

Cliffy6745 said:

Tim Anderson and LaRussa seem like an odd couple...

Anyone who is not a giant red ass that takes themselves too seriously + TLR is a bad couple.

This guy is a fucking doink.  Last thing the game needs is some crusty old fuck back in it -- just when people were starting to loosen up a bit.

(Not a TLR fan.  )

tbergs

MayDay10 said:

Tony LaRussa as manager of the White Sox.  I did not expect that.  Fear the White Sox.

Jesus. Is managing going the route of presidents now and selecting the oldest possible candidates? I mean, no diss to Larussa, I watched him coach throughout my childhood, but wasn't thinking it would extend to my kids childhood too.

mrussel1

Cliffy6745 said:

Tim Anderson and LaRussa seem like an odd couple...

He feels very old school. 

Indifference71

What a horrible fucking move.  Dude is 76 years old and hasn't managed in 9 years.  He's one of those crusty old fucks who gets pissed off about anyone admiring a HR or breaking any of the "unwritten rules".  I'm sure him and Anderson will get along great.  I finally get excited about the Sox for the first time in a decade and they go and do something like this.  This is such a Reinsdorf move.  If I were Rick Hahn, I'd hand in my resignation.  Absolute joke.

Wobbie

T “first ballot hall of famer” LR never won shit without a bunch of roided up players. fuck him. I hope he’s a disaster.

Cliffy6745

Indifference71 said:

What a horrible fucking move.  Dude is 76 years old and hasn't managed in 9 years.  He's one of those crusty old fucks who gets pissed off about anyone admiring a HR or breaking any of the "unwritten rules".  I'm sure him and Anderson will get along great.  I finally get excited about the Sox for the first time in a decade and they go and do something like this.  This is such a Reinsdorf move.  If I were Rick Hahn, I'd hand in my resignation.  Absolute joke.

Yeah, it's a brutal hire, especially for that team...it would seem to me at least.

EdsonNascimento

Cliffy6745 said:

Indifference71 said:

What a horrible fucking move.  Dude is 76 years old and hasn't managed in 9 years.  He's one of those crusty old fucks who gets pissed off about anyone admiring a HR or breaking any of the "unwritten rules".  I'm sure him and Anderson will get along great.  I finally get excited about the Sox for the first time in a decade and they go and do something like this.  This is such a Reinsdorf move.  If I were Rick Hahn, I'd hand in my resignation.  Absolute joke.

Yeah, it's a brutal hire, especially for that team...it would seem to me at least.

Well, at least we know they won't fall into the same trap as Kevin Cash.  (And I mean every aspect of that including being in the WS in the first place).

mrussel1

EdsonNascimento said:

Cliffy6745 said:

Indifference71 said:

What a horrible fucking move.  Dude is 76 years old and hasn't managed in 9 years.  He's one of those crusty old fucks who gets pissed off about anyone admiring a HR or breaking any of the "unwritten rules".  I'm sure him and Anderson will get along great.  I finally get excited about the Sox for the first time in a decade and they go and do something like this.  This is such a Reinsdorf move.  If I were Rick Hahn, I'd hand in my resignation.  Absolute joke.

Yeah, it's a brutal hire, especially for that team...it would seem to me at least.

Well, at least we know they won't fall into the same trap as Kevin Cash.  (And I mean every aspect of that including being in the WS in the first place).

Ha! Good.  I'm a Sox hater, no matter the color.  Go Tribe.