Dissent is a good thing. These people dissenting are being marginalized by mainstream media, and most of the people on this board have eaten it up. They did the same thing with anti war protesters leading up to the Iraq invasion, never mind it was the first time in history people stood up to the authorities before they started dropping bombs. We were marginalized and outcast then, and these people are being marginalized now, while the elite go about their happy murderous policies.
Its a pattern of propaganda, evidence media serves the state.
that said, wear your fucking helmet.
i agree dissent is a good thing. i agree less government involvement in our lives can be a good thing. i agree that sometimes we may focus on the issues that don't matter. like if a sign is mispelled or not. who gives a shit. that's not important. i agree that the tea party may feel they have legitmate grievances and we sometimes only focus on the ridiculous.
having said all of that, here's one thing i don't understand. from what i've read on this board, these people don't seem too concerned about the murderous policies their government continues to employ. why is that?
aerial, mb262000, prfctlefts, unsung etc, what's your thoughts on the government spending all that money on funding 2 wars and supporting the illegal occupation of another?
I think war fucking sucks. I think all the money wasted on defense contractors is BS to. But let me ask you this. Let's say we were to leave Afghanistan and the Taliban regained control and they continued to beat women and impose their drachonian laws on everyone. Would you be ok with that?
I think war fucking sucks. I think all the money wasted on defense contractors is BS to. But let me ask you this. Let's say we were to leave Afghanistan and the Taliban regained control and they continued to beat women and impose their drachonian laws on everyone. Would you be ok with that?
because clearly we are stopping and preventing that in the entire country right now, right? women are still being beaten and stoned for going without their beekeeper uniforms and its the same shit it has always been over there...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Why paint the discussion to such extremes? Racism, Sexism, discrimination and draconian laws are in our nation, but that never seemed to bother anyone.. so we're taking a serious stand in Afghanistan first? Are we the world police or not? Do we intervene on behalf of human rights now? Do we cut trade and ties to China and the long list of places who carry out such tyranny? If you're going to carry out this philosophy and discussion, perhaps think it through to the end.
I think war fucking sucks. I think all the money wasted on defense contractors is BS to. But let me ask you this. Let's say we were to leave Afghanistan and the Taliban regained control and they continued to beat women and impose their drachonian laws on everyone. Would you be ok with that?
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Why paint the discussion to such extremes? Racism, Sexism, discrimination and draconian laws are in our nation, but that never seemed to bother anyone.. so we're taking a serious stand in Afghanistan first? Are we the world police or not? Do we intervene on behalf of human rights now? Do we cut trade and ties to China and the long list of places who carry out such tyranny? If you're going to carry out this philosophy and discussion, perhaps think it through to the end.
I think war fucking sucks. I think all the money wasted on defense contractors is BS to. But let me ask you this. Let's say we were to leave Afghanistan and the Taliban regained control and they continued to beat women and impose their drachonian laws on everyone. Would you be ok with that?
I understand what your saying.I think a lot of those things you mentioned do bother people. I know they bother me no matter what part of the world it's happening. I wasn't trying to carry out any philosiophy. I was only trying to make a point. And that point is that I don't like war just as much as the next person.But sometimes we have to fight for what is right. I happen to think we are in Afghanistan for the right reasons.
But here's the part which is the red herring - why pick and choose one wrong-doing and ignore it in another place? Perhaps you find some of the reasons we're their as redeeming, but can you at-least acknowledge the real underlying reasons we pick and choose which are important/necessary is because of money and our self-interest - not some humanitarian or noble cause? I think this is an important distinction which many ignore or casually pass over.
Why paint the discussion to such extremes? Racism, Sexism, discrimination and draconian laws are in our nation, but that never seemed to bother anyone.. so we're taking a serious stand in Afghanistan first? Are we the world police or not? Do we intervene on behalf of human rights now? Do we cut trade and ties to China and the long list of places who carry out such tyranny? If you're going to carry out this philosophy and discussion, perhaps think it through to the end.
I think war fucking sucks. I think all the money wasted on defense contractors is BS to. But let me ask you this. Let's say we were to leave Afghanistan and the Taliban regained control and they continued to beat women and impose their drachonian laws on everyone. Would you be ok with that?
I understand what your saying.I think a lot of those things you mentioned do bother people. I know they bother me no matter what part of the world it's happening. I wasn't trying to carry out any philosiophy. I was only trying to make a point. And that point is that I don't like war just as much as the next person.But sometimes we have to fight for what is right. I happen to think we are in Afghanistan for the right reasons.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I agree with you 100%. Like How come we havn't gone into Africa and cleaned house ? I mean there's actual genocide happening there. And nothing not one word from any of our elected officials.
Which is my point - I don't think any movement or our society in general truly cares or has it in them to actually fix things. Everyone is far too comfortable and uncaring. America (the will of the people) has stuck it's head in the sand.
I agree with you 100%. Like How come we havn't gone into Africa and cleaned house ? I mean there's actual genocide happening there. And nothing not one word from any of our elected officials.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Which is my point - I don't think any movement or our society in general truly cares or has it in them to actually fix things. Everyone is far too comfortable and uncaring. America (the will of the people) has stuck it's head in the sand.
I agree with you 100%. Like How come we havn't gone into Africa and cleaned house ? I mean there's actual genocide happening there. And nothing not one word from any of our elected officials.
I wouldn't go as far as saying that. There are people that care and there are people that are trying to fix things. We just dont hear about them in the media.But I will agree with you that we are all guilty of sticking our heads in the sand in one way or another especially if it effects our livelihood.
Yes some do care, but we're far past the point of the impact and adjustment which would be necessary to get our shit in order. Circling the drain for a while now...
I wouldn't go as far as saying that. There are people that care and there are people that are trying to fix things. We just don;t hear about them in the media.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Well it's not that I hope it weren't that way, but I look at our society, people, institutions, culture and progression over time and merely call it as I see it.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Back to the original Topic : http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/07/ ... index.html
Reporter's notebook: What really happens at Tea Party rallies
By Shannon Travis, CNN Political Producer
(CNN) -- When it comes to the Tea Party movement, the stereotypes don't tell the whole story.
Here's what you often see in the coverage of Tea Party rallies: offensive posters blasting President Obama and Democratic leaders; racist rhetoric spewed from what seems to be a largely white, male audience; and angry protesters rallying around the Constitution.
Case in point: During the health care debate last month, opponents shouted racial slurs at civil rights icon Georgia Rep. John Lewis and one person spit on Missouri Rep. Emanuel Cleaver. The incidents made national headlines, and they provided Tea Party opponents with fodder to question the movement.
But here's what you don't often see in the coverage of Tea Party rallies: Patriotic signs professing a love for country; mothers and fathers with their children; African-Americans proudly participating; and senior citizens bopping to a hip-hop rapper.
Last week, I saw all of this during a five-city Western swing as the Tea Party Express national tour made its way across the country. CNN was along for the ride, and I was charged with planning CNN's coverage for five stops in two states: St. George, Provo and Salt Lake City, Utah; and Grand Junction and Denver, Colorado.
This latest Tea Party caravan kicked off on March 27 in Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's hometown of Searchlight, Nevada. It is scheduled to make 45 stops before rolling into Washington on April 15, not so coincidentally on "Tax Day."
CNN was the only national news outlet on this Western leg of the tour. We had a full team on the ground: myself, correspondent Ed Lavandera, producers Tracy Sabo and Jim Spellman and the crew of the CNN Express bus. For Spellman, it was his third Tea Party Express tour.
Together, we beamed out images of the anger and the optimism, profiled African-Americans who are proud to be in the Tea Party's minority and showed activists stirred by "God Bless America" or amused by a young rapper who strung together rhymes against the president and Democrats.
The CNN Express traveled with the Tea Party Express buses for hundreds of miles, from rally to rally to rally.
Being at a Tea Party rally is not quite like seeing it on TV, in newspapers or online. That's the reason CNN is covering this political movement -- and doing so in ways few others can or choose to do.
It is important to show the colorful anger Americans might have against elected leaders and Washington. But people should also see the orange-vested Tea Party hospitality handlers who welcome you with colorful smiles.
There were a few signs that could be seen as offensive to African-Americans. But by and large, no one I spoke with or I heard from on stage said anything that was approaching racist.
Almost everyone I met was welcoming to this African-American television news producer.
And though speakers railed against the "lame-stream media," activists and their leaders praised CNN, especially for being the only national media outlet riding along for the post-weekend stops. Some of them e-mailed me after my trip, thanking our crew for fairly giving them a voice.
Speaking of stereotypes, I did get a few curious stares as I pulled up to the rallies. But not because of my skin color. It was because of my car rental: a Volvo.
I hadn't intended to rent a Volvo, a car stereotyped as the favorite of liberal elites. But upon arriving at the Las Vegas airport, the rental company was out of American-made cars with a GPS system and satellite radio. I had nearly a thousand miles of driving ahead, through desert, mountains and cities. Since it had GPS and satellite radio, the Volvo fit the bill.
Outside of the occasional stare, none of the real cowboys at the rallies came up to the Volvo and asked me, "Hey buddy -- where's your cashmere sweater and arugula?" If they had, I might have pointed out that until just recently, Volvo was owned by Ford Motor Co., an American icon.
Jokes aside, stereotypes can loom large when they're magnified through a television lens, on the radio, the pages of a newspaper or in the vastness of the Internet.
So, it's important that with a newsworthy, growing phenomenon like the Tea Party movement, viewers and readers fully understand what they see and what they don't.
Not that it matters, Im sure many of you will still have your pre-conceived notion about the tea parties, but Andrew Brietbart has in creased his pledge to $100,000.00 to UNCF if anyone has any footage of this happening to Lewis and Cleaver.
Well it's not that I hope it weren't that way, but I look at our society, people, institutions, culture and progression over time and merely call it as I see it.
I agree with you 100%. Like How come we havn't gone into Africa and cleaned house ? I mean there's actual genocide happening there. And nothing not one word from any of our elected officials.
I think the problem is a lot of Americans (myself included) are tired of playing world cop. Yes, by all means, by our western standards, what they're doing is totally wrong. HOWEVER, Saudi Arabia is excecuting a man for practicing wizardry, and 14 of the 19 hijackers came from there. We don't touch them, cause of strategic interests. As much as we may be doing some good in Afghanistan when it comes to women's rights and what not, it's not the real reason we're there.
And Darfur is just an awful situation.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
I think war fucking sucks. I think all the money wasted on defense contractors is BS to. But let me ask you this. Let's say we were to leave Afghanistan and the Taliban regained control and they continued to beat women and impose their drachonian laws on everyone. Would you be ok with that?
Seems governmental intervention is okay with the Tea Party as long as it's not in their yard.
Not putting your kid in a booster seat and outright abuse are two totally different issues, not sure why you are trying to make them seem the same.
I don't even want to approach the iphone situation with you.
I meant to compare failing to secure your kid in a car seat with neglect, not outright abuse. I only said "abuse & neglect" because these things are regulated together.
I love how the people on here have such great advise on how to care for and Raise a child when the loudest ones on here don’t even have children......If you do decide to have them, unless your to selfish to put another life before yours......Only Then will you understand why parents do not want the government to tell us how to raise them......
Are you fucking kidding me with this shit? You can't make a good argument so you resort to insults? You are shameful to your Baby Boomer generation. I can't believe you think you take the moral high road around here. :roll:
First of all, I haven't given any advice on how to raise a child - I have made a public health argument. I love how people who are too stupid to recognize a public health argument think they have such great advice on public health. Maybe you should decide to learn about public health, unless you're too (not "your to" - no wonder you identify with Tea Party) selfish to put the health of others as equal to your own. Even then, I doubt you'd be able to understand the first fucking thing about it.
I agree that helmets have a purpose....but one could argue helmets will not save a child From injury if they get hit by a car while riding their bike...should we outlaw bike riding all together ? We do worry that the child may get hurt on the bike but even more worrisome is when your child leaves to drive the car by their selves for the first time.....should that be outlawed to because they could get hurt...is it child abuse letting them drive alone? Should we all wear a helmet while driving a car? Is it child abuse letting your child walk to school....there have been plenty of children abducted walking to school...
First of all, did you not understand my point about costs versus benefits and public health decision-making? Do you need me to spell it out in pictures for you to understand.... like maybe a picture of YOUR child with a traumatic head injury? Secondly, bike riding, driving, and school walkways are all regulated, so whatever point you thought you were making doesn't make sense.
In my day parents smoked in the house,
we rode in the back of pickup trucks,
we rode in the back of station wagons (can you imagine a rear end collision?)
there were no car seats
We did not wear helmets
we ate bacon
lots’ of hot dogs and
sugar
...and guess what? Most of us are still here,( baby boomers).........
Yes, plenty of you are still here, but more of you died from these things then than now. What kind of selfish, horrible parent (I'm looking at you) would want to intentionally place their child in an easily preventable situation where s/he was more likely to die, just to avoid being inconvenienced?
Your argument that if a child gets hurt taxpayers pay the bill has no merit.....there are people that do have insurance and are paying there own bills ....
like the OP said we only have one life to live.... but don’t you think it’s best to live it to the fullest........
BACK TO THE Tea Party question .....we want less government in our personal lives...
You never did address the question at hand! I specificaly asked you some questions about the tea party and you didn't even attempt to answer. Personally, I don't think you have the slightest understanding of any of it.
BACK TO THE Tea Party question .....we want less government in our personal lives...
I don't think you'll find anyone to disagree with you there. We liberals don't want government involved in our personal lives either.
It's not their business to tell me who I can love, who I can talk to, who I should vote for, who I should listen to, who I can associate with, and it's certainly not any of their business to spy on my phone calls and my emails.
Don't forget: It's also none of their business to tell us what we can and can't do with our bodies.
I think war fucking sucks. I think all the money wasted on defense contractors is BS to. But let me ask you this. Let's say we were to leave Afghanistan and the Taliban regained control and they continued to beat women and impose their drachonian laws on everyone. Would you be ok with that?
Women are empowered through education - of both women and men - not force.
even if the "real" number is half of the estimate, isn't that a little ridiculous? How well managed is that tax money that is just that easily siphoned off? There is more too it than the end users of the program being happy with their services...
Strawman argument. That has nothing do do with my point: You think the government can't do healthcare correctly, and yet the people that have socialized medicine like it better than the private insurance corporations. Besides, who's commiting the fraud here? Oh wait... PRIVATE entities. Easily remedied by actually FUNDING Medicare instead of reducing the level of service.
Furthermore, the private insurance industry siphoning off 30% of overhead to pay their CEOs billions in profits, while denying care for people, is better than Medicare running with a 3% overhead and denying nobody healthcare?
strawman? you say that quite a bit on these boards, but this isn't it. There is more to a business being well run then customer satisfaction. I was pointing out that it isn't well run. Rampant fraud is not the sign of a well run business. If a walmart or target or any retail store had a shrinkage rate this high they would be out of business or the manager would be fired. But no one will ever convince you to look at it from another point of view because you aren't interested. MORE TO A BUSINESS THAN CUSTOMER SATISFACTION. By your rational Bernie the bastard ran a great business because his customers were happy right up until they were robbed blind.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
even if the "real" number is half of the estimate, isn't that a little ridiculous? How well managed is that tax money that is just that easily siphoned off? There is more too it than the end users of the program being happy with their services...
Strawman argument. That has nothing do do with my point: You think the government can't do healthcare correctly, and yet the people that have socialized medicine like it better than the private insurance corporations. Besides, who's commiting the fraud here? Oh wait... PRIVATE entities. Easily remedied by actually FUNDING Medicare instead of reducing the level of service.
Furthermore, the private insurance industry siphoning off 30% of overhead to pay their CEOs billions in profits, while denying care for people, is better than Medicare running with a 3% overhead and denying nobody healthcare?
strawman? you say that quite a bit on these boards, but this isn't it. There is more to a business being well run then customer satisfaction. I was pointing out that it isn't well run. Rampant fraud is not the sign of a well run business. If a walmart or target or any retail store had a shrinkage rate this high they would be out of business or the manager would be fired. But no one will ever convince you to look at it from another point of view because you aren't interested. MORE TO A BUSINESS THAN CUSTOMER SATISFACTION. By your rational Bernie the bastard ran a great business because his customers were happy right up until they were robbed blind.
Of course it's a strawman argument. My point was that if government is so bad, why are patients more satisfied with Medicare than the private insurance companies? Then you pull up something completely unrelated - Medicare fraud. Nothing to do with the point I made.
Furthermore, if you're going to bring up the issue of fraud, then why don't you address the fact that people are dying every day because the private insurance companies FRAUDULENTLY deny people claims or cancel their policies. Or that if we actually funded Medicare and provided it with solid auditing practices and trusted auditors instead of raiding it every year, we'd actually stem the fraud?
And your analogy with Bernie Madoff is laughable on its face. The satisfaction ratings were based on people gettting ACTUAL benefits from Medicare, not paper, intangible benefits from Madoff's ponzi scheme. That would be like a very sick patient looking his doctor's chart and then claims he's been cured.
Of course, I could also point out that by your standards, since nobody defrauded Madoff that means he had a well run operation too.
"It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
as a paramedic who gets to see the consequences of head injuries received by people involved in serious accidents who do not wear protective head equipment, let me tell you it's not a pretty sight.
but hey, go ahead. don't let something than can save your life annoy you. feel free to make a decision not to wear one. it's your life. not mine. can't have the government sticking their nose in. by the way, i assume you don't have a problem calling government paid/run emergency service personnel, and their equipment if ever you or a member of your family is unfortunate enough to have an accident while not wearing a helmet?
and you know that saying 'it can never happen to you'. that's a lie.
i will never understand someone that doesn't take whatever precautions they can to ensure their utmost safety. i know you can't control everything, but you can do what you can to try and minimize things. lifes a precious thing. we only get one of them.
What's sad is that the regulation he's complaining about isn't even about the lives and safety of him and other adults; it's about the lives and safety of his and other people's children. :(
no what is sad is that the government, in their omnipresent role want to make it so that everyone lives in a god damn bubble. That is fine, let the government tell you what you can and cannot do, again, if you read what I wrote earlier you would understand. I would not let my kid do it, but I don't think a 16year old should be forced to wear a helmet.
Also, I work in public health, I understand the difference between a public and private health risk. If you canot see the difference you aren't looking at it with an open mind. You are looking at it and thinking about how you can prove me wrong rather than what am saying. It isn't a public health risk to make me wear a seatbelt, it is my choice. Would I get into a car and drive without a seatbelt, hell no, but you continually encroach into people's lives and it gets worse and worse. What happens when the government starts telling us what we can eat? That gonna bother you? How about when they start telling you how much you can drink, or how much you can spend in a month? Slippery slope guys. The problem is once that ball starts rolling it gets out of control. I would much rather err on the side of no legislation than on the side of legislation. If you think it cant happen you are fooling yourself.
You guys are right, it makes much more sense to wear a helmet, it makes much more sense to wear a seat belt, I just don't understand the idea behind it needing to be a god damn law. Not everything needs to be legislated. I would venture to guess that most of you arguing against me would love it if marijuana were legalized, so which is it, stay out of my life or only get involved in things you think are right?
So many people worry so much about protecting the life they have they forget to live it.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
If the government's involvement in healthcare is such an unmitigated disaster, then why does Medicare score so much better with their clients than the private insurance sector?
Yeah, socialized medicine is so horrible that those who have it love it better than private insurance :roll:
you get it now, it wasn't straw man, I was referring to your point that it is well run . . . I pointed out that customer satisfaction is not and should not be the only thing you base your idea that government involvement is a good thing.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Of course it's a strawman argument. My point was that if government is so bad, why are patients more satisfied with Medicare than the private insurance companies? Then you pull up something completely unrelated - Medicare fraud. Nothing to do with the point I made.
Furthermore, if you're going to bring up the issue of fraud, then why don't you address the fact that people are dying every day because the private insurance companies FRAUDULENTLY deny people claims or cancel their policies. Or that if we actually funded Medicare and provided it with solid auditing practices and trusted auditors instead of raiding it every year, we'd actually stem the fraud?
And your analogy with Bernie Madoff is laughable on its face. The satisfaction ratings were based on people gettting ACTUAL benefits from Medicare, not paper, intangible benefits from Madoff's ponzi scheme. That would be like a very sick patient looking his doctor's chart and then claims he's been cured.
Of course, I could also point out that by your standards, since nobody defrauded Madoff that means he had a well run operation too.
<--- this was a stretch by the way
You finally said something I agree with . . .
Furthermore, if you're going to bring up the issue of fraud, then why don't you address the fact that people are dying every day because the private insurance companies FRAUDULENTLY deny people claims or cancel their policies. Or that if we actually funded Medicare and provided it with solid auditing practices and trusted auditors instead of raiding it every year, we'd actually stem the fraud?
This is exacty what I am talking about man, the government cannot do it right. . . why do you think they are going to do anything else so much better....it isn't a republican/democrat issue man...it is that government does very poorly when trying to run things like this . . . anything to say about that or are gonna complain it is another strawman argument...
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
you get it now, it wasn't straw man, I was referring to your point that it is well run . . . I pointed out that customer satisfaction is not and should not be the only thing you base your idea that government involvement is a good thing.
I never said that it was "well run". Medicare as it is is not the end all and be all of health care panaceas.
I said that if it was so bad, why do people who have it like it? Obviously it was doing something right.
"It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
This is exacty what I am talking about man, the government cannot do it right. . . why do you think they are going to do anything else so much better....it isn't a republican/democrat issue man...it is that government does very poorly when trying to run things like this . . . anything to say about that or are gonna complain it is another strawman argument...
That's because you keep repeating blanket statements about how government cannot do it right, when the government does it right in pretty much every other industrialized country in the world, from Canada to Great Britain to Germany to Sweden to Finland.
Even Switzerland, that doesn't have a government run healthcare system, runs their insurance industry like a utility - no profits involved.
So why should I believe your blanket assertion that government can't do it right when other countries provide government funded universal health insurance for everyone at a fraction of what we pay for?
"It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
no what is sad is that the government, in their omnipresent role want to make it so that everyone lives in a god damn bubble. That is fine, let the government tell you what you can and cannot do, again, if you read what I wrote earlier you would understand. I would not let my kid do it, but I don't think a 16year old should be forced to wear a helmet.
Also, I work in public health, I understand the difference between a public and private health risk. If you canot see the difference you aren't looking at it with an open mind. You are looking at it and thinking about how you can prove me wrong rather than what am saying. It isn't a public health risk to make me wear a seatbelt, it is my choice. Would I get into a car and drive without a seatbelt, hell no, but you continually encroach into people's lives and it gets worse and worse. What happens when the government starts telling us what we can eat? That gonna bother you? How about when they start telling you how much you can drink, or how much you can spend in a month? Slippery slope guys. The problem is once that ball starts rolling it gets out of control. I would much rather err on the side of no legislation than on the side of legislation. If you think it cant happen you are fooling yourself.
You guys are right, it makes much more sense to wear a helmet, it makes much more sense to wear a seat belt, I just don't understand the idea behind it needing to be a god damn law. Not everything needs to be legislated. I would venture to guess that most of you arguing against me would love it if marijuana were legalized, so which is it, stay out of my life or only get involved in things you think are right?
So many people worry so much about protecting the life they have they forget to live it.
No, the government doesn't want to make everyone live in a bubble and it's not all or nothing. You didn't address the cost/benefit balance public health regulations strive for that I mentioned earlier. I'm sure you're smart enough to understand the that just because some things are regulated doesn't mean that ALL things are/will be. The ball has been rolling for centuries and it is not yet out of control. I don't know where all your fear comes from.
And, no, I'm not trying to make any argument about public vs. private health just to prove you wrong; I've made the same argument made by the public health community as a whole. And what's your point about the legalization of marijuana??
Also, you totally skirted the issue at hand, which is the safety of children.
This is exacty what I am talking about man, the government cannot do it right. . . why do you think they are going to do anything else so much better....it isn't a republican/democrat issue man...it is that government does very poorly when trying to run things like this . . . anything to say about that or are gonna complain it is another strawman argument...
That's because you keep repeating blanket statements about how government cannot do it right, when the government does it right in pretty much every other industrialized country in the world, from Canada to Great Britain to Germany to Sweden to Finland.
Even Switzerland, that doesn't have a government run healthcare system, runs their insurance industry like a utility - no profits involved.
So why should I believe your blanket assertion that government can't do it right when other countries provide government funded universal health insurance for everyone at a fraction of what we pay for?
I love how people are so quick to point out how the "government doesn't do it right" yet it is pretty fucking obvious that in our county PRIVATE INDUSTRY DOESN'T DO IT RIGHT either....ya know?
After the banking mess and after seeing so many of my friends get raped by our current health care system I have changed my view about government involvement.
I consider myself a fiscal conservative and as a conservative (and a CPA) I say that a single payer/universal system is the way to go as far as delivering health care. It is the most efficient and eliminates the multiple profit layers that our current system has....and guess what....it already exists.....medicare
Remember the Thomas Nine !! (10/02/2018) The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago 2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy 2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE) 2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston 2020: Oakland, Oakland:2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana 2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville 2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
I say that a single payer/universal system is the way to go as far as delivering health care. It is the most efficient and eliminates the multiple profit layers that our current system has
My state has conducted 3 independent studies in the last 15 years to try to figure out what the best healthcare model would be. All of them have come to this same conclusion. My understanding is that studies conducted by other states have had these results as well.
Comments
i agree dissent is a good thing. i agree less government involvement in our lives can be a good thing. i agree that sometimes we may focus on the issues that don't matter. like if a sign is mispelled or not. who gives a shit. that's not important. i agree that the tea party may feel they have legitmate grievances and we sometimes only focus on the ridiculous.
having said all of that, here's one thing i don't understand. from what i've read on this board, these people don't seem too concerned about the murderous policies their government continues to employ. why is that?
aerial, mb262000, prfctlefts, unsung etc, what's your thoughts on the government spending all that money on funding 2 wars and supporting the illegal occupation of another?
where do you stand on that?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I understand what your saying.I think a lot of those things you mentioned do bother people. I know they bother me no matter what part of the world it's happening. I wasn't trying to carry out any philosiophy. I was only trying to make a point. And that point is that I don't like war just as much as the next person.But sometimes we have to fight for what is right. I happen to think we are in Afghanistan for the right reasons.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
I wouldn't go as far as saying that. There are people that care and there are people that are trying to fix things. We just dont hear about them in the media.But I will agree with you that we are all guilty of sticking our heads in the sand in one way or another especially if it effects our livelihood.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/04/07/ ... index.html
Reporter's notebook: What really happens at Tea Party rallies
By Shannon Travis, CNN Political Producer
(CNN) -- When it comes to the Tea Party movement, the stereotypes don't tell the whole story.
Here's what you often see in the coverage of Tea Party rallies: offensive posters blasting President Obama and Democratic leaders; racist rhetoric spewed from what seems to be a largely white, male audience; and angry protesters rallying around the Constitution.
Case in point: During the health care debate last month, opponents shouted racial slurs at civil rights icon Georgia Rep. John Lewis and one person spit on Missouri Rep. Emanuel Cleaver. The incidents made national headlines, and they provided Tea Party opponents with fodder to question the movement.
But here's what you don't often see in the coverage of Tea Party rallies: Patriotic signs professing a love for country; mothers and fathers with their children; African-Americans proudly participating; and senior citizens bopping to a hip-hop rapper.
Last week, I saw all of this during a five-city Western swing as the Tea Party Express national tour made its way across the country. CNN was along for the ride, and I was charged with planning CNN's coverage for five stops in two states: St. George, Provo and Salt Lake City, Utah; and Grand Junction and Denver, Colorado.
This latest Tea Party caravan kicked off on March 27 in Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid's hometown of Searchlight, Nevada. It is scheduled to make 45 stops before rolling into Washington on April 15, not so coincidentally on "Tax Day."
CNN was the only national news outlet on this Western leg of the tour. We had a full team on the ground: myself, correspondent Ed Lavandera, producers Tracy Sabo and Jim Spellman and the crew of the CNN Express bus. For Spellman, it was his third Tea Party Express tour.
Together, we beamed out images of the anger and the optimism, profiled African-Americans who are proud to be in the Tea Party's minority and showed activists stirred by "God Bless America" or amused by a young rapper who strung together rhymes against the president and Democrats.
The CNN Express traveled with the Tea Party Express buses for hundreds of miles, from rally to rally to rally.
Being at a Tea Party rally is not quite like seeing it on TV, in newspapers or online. That's the reason CNN is covering this political movement -- and doing so in ways few others can or choose to do.
It is important to show the colorful anger Americans might have against elected leaders and Washington. But people should also see the orange-vested Tea Party hospitality handlers who welcome you with colorful smiles.
There were a few signs that could be seen as offensive to African-Americans. But by and large, no one I spoke with or I heard from on stage said anything that was approaching racist.
Almost everyone I met was welcoming to this African-American television news producer.
And though speakers railed against the "lame-stream media," activists and their leaders praised CNN, especially for being the only national media outlet riding along for the post-weekend stops. Some of them e-mailed me after my trip, thanking our crew for fairly giving them a voice.
Speaking of stereotypes, I did get a few curious stares as I pulled up to the rallies. But not because of my skin color. It was because of my car rental: a Volvo.
I hadn't intended to rent a Volvo, a car stereotyped as the favorite of liberal elites. But upon arriving at the Las Vegas airport, the rental company was out of American-made cars with a GPS system and satellite radio. I had nearly a thousand miles of driving ahead, through desert, mountains and cities. Since it had GPS and satellite radio, the Volvo fit the bill.
Outside of the occasional stare, none of the real cowboys at the rallies came up to the Volvo and asked me, "Hey buddy -- where's your cashmere sweater and arugula?" If they had, I might have pointed out that until just recently, Volvo was owned by Ford Motor Co., an American icon.
Jokes aside, stereotypes can loom large when they're magnified through a television lens, on the radio, the pages of a newspaper or in the vastness of the Internet.
So, it's important that with a newsworthy, growing phenomenon like the Tea Party movement, viewers and readers fully understand what they see and what they don't.
Not that it matters, Im sure many of you will still have your pre-conceived notion about the tea parties, but Andrew Brietbart has in creased his pledge to $100,000.00 to UNCF if anyone has any footage of this happening to Lewis and Cleaver.
I hear ya... There's a lot of work to be done, almost 100 years of damage to this country isn't going to be fixed overnight.
And Darfur is just an awful situation.
I meant to compare failing to secure your kid in a car seat with neglect, not outright abuse. I only said "abuse & neglect" because these things are regulated together.
Are you fucking kidding me with this shit? You can't make a good argument so you resort to insults? You are shameful to your Baby Boomer generation. I can't believe you think you take the moral high road around here. :roll:
First of all, I haven't given any advice on how to raise a child - I have made a public health argument. I love how people who are too stupid to recognize a public health argument think they have such great advice on public health. Maybe you should decide to learn about public health, unless you're too (not "your to" - no wonder you identify with Tea Party) selfish to put the health of others as equal to your own. Even then, I doubt you'd be able to understand the first fucking thing about it.
First of all, did you not understand my point about costs versus benefits and public health decision-making? Do you need me to spell it out in pictures for you to understand.... like maybe a picture of YOUR child with a traumatic head injury? Secondly, bike riding, driving, and school walkways are all regulated, so whatever point you thought you were making doesn't make sense.
Yes, plenty of you are still here, but more of you died from these things then than now. What kind of selfish, horrible parent (I'm looking at you) would want to intentionally place their child in an easily preventable situation where s/he was more likely to die, just to avoid being inconvenienced?
It's a fucking fact! Look it up.
You never did address the question at hand! I specificaly asked you some questions about the tea party and you didn't even attempt to answer. Personally, I don't think you have the slightest understanding of any of it.
Don't forget: It's also none of their business to tell us what we can and can't do with our bodies.
Women are empowered through education - of both women and men - not force.
strawman? you say that quite a bit on these boards, but this isn't it. There is more to a business being well run then customer satisfaction. I was pointing out that it isn't well run. Rampant fraud is not the sign of a well run business. If a walmart or target or any retail store had a shrinkage rate this high they would be out of business or the manager would be fired. But no one will ever convince you to look at it from another point of view because you aren't interested. MORE TO A BUSINESS THAN CUSTOMER SATISFACTION. By your rational Bernie the bastard ran a great business because his customers were happy right up until they were robbed blind.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Of course it's a strawman argument. My point was that if government is so bad, why are patients more satisfied with Medicare than the private insurance companies? Then you pull up something completely unrelated - Medicare fraud. Nothing to do with the point I made.
Furthermore, if you're going to bring up the issue of fraud, then why don't you address the fact that people are dying every day because the private insurance companies FRAUDULENTLY deny people claims or cancel their policies. Or that if we actually funded Medicare and provided it with solid auditing practices and trusted auditors instead of raiding it every year, we'd actually stem the fraud?
And your analogy with Bernie Madoff is laughable on its face. The satisfaction ratings were based on people gettting ACTUAL benefits from Medicare, not paper, intangible benefits from Madoff's ponzi scheme. That would be like a very sick patient looking his doctor's chart and then claims he's been cured.
Of course, I could also point out that by your standards, since nobody defrauded Madoff that means he had a well run operation too.
no what is sad is that the government, in their omnipresent role want to make it so that everyone lives in a god damn bubble. That is fine, let the government tell you what you can and cannot do, again, if you read what I wrote earlier you would understand. I would not let my kid do it, but I don't think a 16year old should be forced to wear a helmet.
Also, I work in public health, I understand the difference between a public and private health risk. If you canot see the difference you aren't looking at it with an open mind. You are looking at it and thinking about how you can prove me wrong rather than what am saying. It isn't a public health risk to make me wear a seatbelt, it is my choice. Would I get into a car and drive without a seatbelt, hell no, but you continually encroach into people's lives and it gets worse and worse. What happens when the government starts telling us what we can eat? That gonna bother you? How about when they start telling you how much you can drink, or how much you can spend in a month? Slippery slope guys. The problem is once that ball starts rolling it gets out of control. I would much rather err on the side of no legislation than on the side of legislation. If you think it cant happen you are fooling yourself.
You guys are right, it makes much more sense to wear a helmet, it makes much more sense to wear a seat belt, I just don't understand the idea behind it needing to be a god damn law. Not everything needs to be legislated. I would venture to guess that most of you arguing against me would love it if marijuana were legalized, so which is it, stay out of my life or only get involved in things you think are right?
So many people worry so much about protecting the life they have they forget to live it.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
you get it now, it wasn't straw man, I was referring to your point that it is well run . . . I pointed out that customer satisfaction is not and should not be the only thing you base your idea that government involvement is a good thing.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
You finally said something I agree with . . .
This is exacty what I am talking about man, the government cannot do it right. . . why do you think they are going to do anything else so much better....it isn't a republican/democrat issue man...it is that government does very poorly when trying to run things like this . . . anything to say about that or are gonna complain it is another strawman argument...
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
I never said that it was "well run". Medicare as it is is not the end all and be all of health care panaceas.
I said that if it was so bad, why do people who have it like it? Obviously it was doing something right.
That's because you keep repeating blanket statements about how government cannot do it right, when the government does it right in pretty much every other industrialized country in the world, from Canada to Great Britain to Germany to Sweden to Finland.
Even Switzerland, that doesn't have a government run healthcare system, runs their insurance industry like a utility - no profits involved.
So why should I believe your blanket assertion that government can't do it right when other countries provide government funded universal health insurance for everyone at a fraction of what we pay for?
No, the government doesn't want to make everyone live in a bubble and it's not all or nothing. You didn't address the cost/benefit balance public health regulations strive for that I mentioned earlier. I'm sure you're smart enough to understand the that just because some things are regulated doesn't mean that ALL things are/will be. The ball has been rolling for centuries and it is not yet out of control. I don't know where all your fear comes from.
And, no, I'm not trying to make any argument about public vs. private health just to prove you wrong; I've made the same argument made by the public health community as a whole. And what's your point about the legalization of marijuana??
Also, you totally skirted the issue at hand, which is the safety of children.
I love how people are so quick to point out how the "government doesn't do it right" yet it is pretty fucking obvious that in our county PRIVATE INDUSTRY DOESN'T DO IT RIGHT either....ya know?
After the banking mess and after seeing so many of my friends get raped by our current health care system I have changed my view about government involvement.
I consider myself a fiscal conservative and as a conservative (and a CPA) I say that a single payer/universal system is the way to go as far as delivering health care. It is the most efficient and eliminates the multiple profit layers that our current system has....and guess what....it already exists.....medicare
The Golden Age is 2 months away. And guess what….. you’re gonna love it! (teskeinc 11.19.24)
1998: Noblesville; 2003: Noblesville; 2009: EV Nashville, Chicago, Chicago
2010: St Louis, Columbus, Noblesville; 2011: EV Chicago, East Troy, East Troy
2013: London ON, Wrigley; 2014: Cincy, St Louis, Moline (NO CODE)
2016: Lexington, Wrigley #1; 2018: Wrigley, Wrigley, Boston, Boston
2020: Oakland, Oakland: 2021: EV Ohana, Ohana, Ohana, Ohana
2022: Oakland, Oakland, Nashville, Louisville; 2023: Chicago, Chicago, Noblesville
2024: Noblesville, Wrigley, Wrigley, Ohana, Ohana; 2025: Pitt1, Pitt2
My state has conducted 3 independent studies in the last 15 years to try to figure out what the best healthcare model would be. All of them have come to this same conclusion. My understanding is that studies conducted by other states have had these results as well.