Illegal alien murders Arizona rancher

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  • arthurdentarthurdent Posts: 969
    I don't know how to stop it. Do you think cutting off the supply completely will help, or is education and treatment at home a better option?

    I don't think you can cut off the drug supply of any illegal drug completly. And everytime you make it smaller by those making record setting drug busts, all you do is increase the price that the dealers can sell what they still have for. I mean everytime I see one of those police press conferences where they have a bunch of bricks of coke laid out on a table, all I can think of is how the price of cocaine just went up and the dealers and suppliers are going to make more money.

    If you can't cut off the supply, then kill the demand. Longer, harder sentences for drug offenses!!!!
    Rock me Jesus, roll me Lord...
    Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
  • StarfallStarfall Posts: 548
    arthurdent wrote:
    Starfall wrote:
    Legalize marijuana. That'll take care of the problem.
    bbbzzzttt.
    Wrong. Legalizing marijuana will only cause the criminal elements in Mexico to shift to more, violent, crimes such as kidnappings.

    See below.
    [citation needed]

    Right here.

    PHOENIX - Attorney General Terry Goddard said....marijuana sales make up 75 percent of the money that Mexican cartels use for the other operations, including smuggling other drugs and fighting the army and police in that country. He said that makes fighting drug distribution here important to cut off that cash.
    These drug gangs are purely criminal enterprises. Remove pot, and they'll just move on to something else.

    How do you figure that? When Prohibition was repealed, the Chicago gangs didn't resort to kidnapping. On the contrary, they figured out rapidly how to make lucrative amounts of money LEGALLY - hence the booming gambling and entertainment enterprise that is Las Vegas. :mrgreen:

    Moreover, look at Portugal, where drug usage was decriminalized 5 years ago, to resounding success across the board.
    "It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
  • StarfallStarfall Posts: 548
    sometimes i think with the amount of money we've spent fighting it and how many lives we've fucked with we just refuse to say we were wrong or sorry. like when the navy shot down that iranian airliner and vp bush said he refused to apologize.

    and think of how many people would have to be released from jail. what about all their stuff that was confiscated and sold? can they sue over being imprisoned for years?

    it's the same as it was when alcohol was illegal, it puts the market in the hands of criminals.

    as is pointed out in that doc i mentioned earlier, instead of being able to go to a business that has laws over it, like selling tobacco or alcohol to minors in the US, you're creating this vacuum that is filled with a lot of people that don't care how young the person is, what's in it.....

    we need better education, this lumping it in with heroin, crack, meth....is ludicrous and if anything is harmful because when a kid tries pot and thinks it's nothing like they told him what's stopping him/her from thinking they lied about other drugs?

    See my link above to Glenzilla's report on the decriminalization of drugs in Portugal, and how that country's success might spur on others to emulate it. The cries from the right wingers of Portugal turning into a drug paradise never materialized, and in fact, overall drug usage started to go down.

    Why should drug users subsidize criminal gangs when they can compensate society instead for all the (relatively small) trouble that they cause?
    "It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    arthurdent wrote:
    unsung wrote:
    I'd bring the National Guard back from Iraq and stick them on the southern border.

    That border and the people crossing it are more of a threat to this country than Iraq.

    The U.S. border with Mexico is roughly 1969 miles.
    The U.S. border with Canada is roughly 5528 miles.

    There are roughly 88,00 army, navy, coast guard, air force and marines stationed in Iraq.
    That would equal roughly 11 soldiers per mile of U.S. border.


    I don't believe the Canadian border needs to have more people posted, but I might be wrong. I'm 100% for removing the troops from Iraq and militarizing our southern border.

    Fine and jail CEO's that hire illegals.

    Deport the ones here illegally.

    End the birthright amendment.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Interesting article here on the subject of drug-running. Seems the U.S government aren't completely innocent afterall - what a surprise! :lol:

    http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB113/storm.htm

    Crack, The Contras, and the CIA
  • StarfallStarfall Posts: 548
    unsung wrote:
    arthurdent wrote:
    unsung wrote:
    I'd bring the National Guard back from Iraq and stick them on the southern border.

    That border and the people crossing it are more of a threat to this country than Iraq.

    The U.S. border with Mexico is roughly 1969 miles.
    The U.S. border with Canada is roughly 5528 miles.

    There are roughly 88,00 army, navy, coast guard, air force and marines stationed in Iraq.
    That would equal roughly 11 soldiers per mile of U.S. border.


    I don't believe the Canadian border needs to have more people posted, but I might be wrong. I'm 100% for removing the troops from Iraq and militarizing our southern border.

    Fine and jail CEO's that hire illegals.

    Deport the ones here illegally.

    End the birthright amendment.

    You guys DO realize that the Posse Comitatus Act expressly prohibits our military from acting as law enforcement, within US borders, right?
    "It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
  • unsungunsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    If they are not interfering with American Citizens and they only enforce the border I'm all for it.
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    Starfall what about the coast guard ?...same thing ?

    Godfather.
  • Dirtie_FrankDirtie_Frank Posts: 1,348
    Godfather. wrote:
    Starfall what about the coast guard ?...same thing ?

    Godfather.
    Coast guard falls under Department of Homeland Security. They become a military org when we are at war and they provide support for the war.

    The CG used to fall under Department of Treasury.
    96 Randall's Island II
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  • StarfallStarfall Posts: 548
    unsung wrote:
    If they are not interfering with American Citizens and they only enforce the border I'm all for it.

    Still doesn't address how you're going to bypass the law. The law was put in after the Civil War to prevent the Federal Government from using the military against its own citizens. Call me a radical militiaman, but that kinda has some underlying logic to it, no?
    Godfather. wrote:
    Starfall what about the coast guard ?...same thing ?

    Godfather.

    The Coast Guard was specifically created as a peacetime law enforcement agency (and in fact, was originally part of the Treasury Department) and is exempt from Posse Comitatus.
    "It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
  • Kel VarnsenKel Varnsen Posts: 1,952
    Starfall wrote:
    Or, you can do what FDR did and repeal Prohibition. It did two very important things -

    1. Put liquor back into the normal economy, enabling governments to raise revenue by imposingt taxes and
    2. Broke the back of the Chicago gangs that made their money off illicit booze.

    I guarantee you if marijuana is decriminalized, it will do similar things for us. Marijuana is 70% of the revenue for these Mexican drug gangs - remove that revenue, and they'll collapse, like the Prohibition era gangs.

    PLUS, it will alleviate the huge overcrowding in our prisons AND free up our law enforcement to go after REAL criminals, not the guys who spend all day harmlessly tripping out over pot. And without the drug gangs using undocumented workers to ferry their stuff over the border, illegal immigration will drop.

    Besides, decriminalization of marijuana in gonna be on the ballot in California this fall... don't forget to vote. :D


    Since when did the prohibition era gangs collapse. They might have decreased in size since then, but in reality they just found new rackets to go after, mostly getting involved with unions.
  • StarfallStarfall Posts: 548
    Since when did the prohibition era gangs collapse. They might have decreased in size since then, but in reality they just found new rackets to go after, mostly getting involved with unions.

    Collapse doesn't necessarily mean extinction, you know.:
    4. to suddenly lose force, significance, effectiveness, or worth

    While the gangs went on to other forms of criminal activity, they were never the same after Prohibition.
    "It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
  • CommyCommy Posts: 4,984
    unsung wrote:
    That makes no sense. They will just run cocaine/heroin/whatever else up the pipe. That is not the answer.

    So legalize those things too.



    Deaths from all illegal drugs combined don't come anywhere near alcohol or tobacco. In the 90's it was something like


    all illegal drugs combined -2000
    tobacco and alcohol -+50,000


    those numbers are from memory and are estimates, but the contrast is that absurd.


    The only reason there is a war on drugs is so the police can bother me, and them. Its a pretext for involvement in all of latin America, when reality shows they haven't done much more than be a victim to the superpower to the north. Now they want to come to America and work shit jobs and send money home to their families and you and the teabaggers present exceptions like the above as an excuse to close the border. The United States gov't raped their countries, the least we could do is give them jobs.
  • Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    arthurdent wrote:
    I don't know how to stop it. Do you think cutting off the supply completely will help, or is education and treatment at home a better option?

    I don't think you can cut off the drug supply of any illegal drug completly. And everytime you make it smaller by those making record setting drug busts, all you do is increase the price that the dealers can sell what they still have for. I mean everytime I see one of those police press conferences where they have a bunch of bricks of coke laid out on a table, all I can think of is how the price of cocaine just went up and the dealers and suppliers are going to make more money.

    If you can't cut off the supply, then kill the demand. Longer, harder sentences for drug offenses!!!!


    while many of the jails are privately owned, for-profit businesses. like that case in PA where they were bribing a judge to send kids to his privately owned juvenile hall for several months past what they were sentenced because without going to a judge or anyone the facility would decide they weren't ready to be released yet....

    are you really serious? how can you get tougher on users when our tax money is going to probably the biggest heroin trafficker in the world!?!?
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • arthurdentarthurdent Posts: 969
    Commy wrote:
    unsung wrote:
    all illegal drugs combined -2000
    tobacco and alcohol -+50,000

    shouldn't we be talking about getting rid of alcohol and tobacco, rather than legalizing other stuff?
    Rock me Jesus, roll me Lord...
    Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
  • arthurdentarthurdent Posts: 969
    are you really serious? how can you get tougher on users when our tax money is going to probably the biggest heroin trafficker in the world!?!?

    If the penalties are severe enough and the risks of getting caught high enough, maybe people won't use drugs in the first place. Eventually, people will get the hint.
    Rock me Jesus, roll me Lord...
    Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
  • Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    arthurdent wrote:
    are you really serious? how can you get tougher on users when our tax money is going to probably the biggest heroin trafficker in the world!?!?

    If the penalties are severe enough and the risks of getting caught high enough, maybe people won't use drugs in the first place. Eventually, people will get the hint.


    that has never worked anywhere at any time in history
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • arthurdentarthurdent Posts: 969
    that has never worked anywhere at any time in history

    It will, if the penalty is death. Talk about a zero recidivism rate.
    Rock me Jesus, roll me Lord...
    Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
  • aerialaerial Posts: 2,319
    arthurdent wrote:
    Commy wrote:
    unsung wrote:
    all illegal drugs combined -2000
    tobacco and alcohol -+50,000

    shouldn't we be talking about getting rid of alcohol and tobacco, rather than legalizing other stuff?
    Yeah also bacon, salt, sugar, and caffeine, along with ski diving, mountain climbing, motorcross. Deep sea diving, and everything else unhealthy or dangerous......
    “We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
  • Pepe SilviaPepe Silvia Posts: 3,758
    arthurdent wrote:
    that has never worked anywhere at any time in history

    It will, if the penalty is death. Talk about a zero recidivism rate.

    you support executing people if they get high??
    don't compete; coexist

    what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?

    "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama

    when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
    i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
  • StarfallStarfall Posts: 548
    arthurdent wrote:
    Commy wrote:
    unsung wrote:
    all illegal drugs combined -2000
    tobacco and alcohol -+50,000

    shouldn't we be talking about getting rid of alcohol and tobacco, rather than legalizing other stuff?

    We tried Prohibition already. It didn't work, that's why it was repealed.
    "It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
  • arthurdent wrote:
    that has never worked anywhere at any time in history

    It will, if the penalty is death. Talk about a zero recidivism rate.

    The death penalty isn't a deterrence when it comes to murder and other violent crimes so why would it work with drug use.

    Look up the statistics states that enforce the death penalty have a higher crime rate than states without.
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