Israel to triple West Bank settlements

yosi

Byrnzie wrote:

Corso wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

Meanwhile, looks like the Israelis are doing all the can to scupper any peace proces:

What's new? Same old song and dance... I read most of this thread and some of this shit reminds me of the history between the American Gov and the Native Americans.

True. You have one side making concession after concession (treaty) and ceding more and more of their land, and the other side lying through their fucking teeth, stealing more and more land, and murdering and oppressing the native population at will - while also confining them into reservations (Palestinian enclaves - South African style Bantustans).

The American settlers also claimed self-defense. Some things never change.

What concessions have the Palestinians ever made? And don't tell me they "conceded" Israel to the Israelis.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

So let me get this straight Byrnzie. Nationhood is defined by having a state, and so the Palestinians are not yet a nation? If that is the case then by what right can they claim a state of their own?

By the same right that Israel declared itself a state: U.N resolution 181.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n16/henry-sieg ... ocess-scam
UN General Assembly Partition Resolution 181 of 1947, which established the Jewish state’s international legitimacy, also recognised the remaining Palestinian territory outside the new state’s borders as the equally legitimate patrimony of Palestine’s Arab population on which they were entitled to establish their own state, and it mapped the borders of that territory with great precision. Resolution 181’s affirmation of the right of Palestine’s Arab population to national self-determination was based on normative law and the democratic principles that grant statehood to the majority population. (At the time, Arabs constituted two-thirds of the population in Palestine.) This right does not evaporate because of delays in its implementation.

http://www.danielpipes.org/185/declarin ... nd-the-plo
Despite the historical injustice inflicted on the Palestinian Arab people resulting in their dispersion and depriving them of their right to self-determination, following upon UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (1947), which partitioned Palestine into two states, one Arab, one Jewish, yet it is this Resolution that still provides those conditions of international legitimacy that ensure the right of the Palestinian Arab people to sovereignty and national independence.

By stages, the occupation of Palestine and parts of other Arab territories by Israeli forces, the willed dispossession and expulsion from their ancestral homes of the majority of Palestine's civilian inhabitants was achieved by organized terror; those Palestinians who remained, as a vestige subjugated in its homeland, were persecuted and forced to endure the destruction of their national life.

Thus were principles of international legitimacy violated. Thus were the Charter of the United Nations and its Resolutions disfigured, for they had recognized the Palestinian Arab people's national rights, including the right of Return, the right to independence, the right to sovereignty over territory and homeland.


http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Palestini ... dependence
Palestinian Declaration of Independence

The Declaration of Independence was adopted by the Palestinian National Council, the legislative body of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), in Algiers on 15th November, 1988. It unilaterally proclaimed the establishment of a new independent state called the "State of Palestine" but at that time the PLO had no control of any territory:

'...in Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations (1919) and in the Treaty of Lausanne (1923), the community of nations had recognised that all the Arab territories, including Palestine, of the formerly Ottoman provinces, were to have granted to them their freedom as provisionally independent nations.

Despite the historical injustice inflicted on the Palestinian Arab people resulting in their dispersion and depriving them of their right to self-determination, following upon UN General Assembly Resolution 181 (1947), which partitioned Palestine into two states, one Arab, one Jewish, yet it is this Resolution that still provides those conditions of international legitimacy that ensure the right of the Palestinian Arab people to sovereignty.'

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

What concessions have the Palestinians ever made? And don't tell me they "conceded" Israel to the Israelis.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v29/n16/henry-sieg ... ocess-scam
The problem is not, as Israelis often claim, that Palestinians do not know how to compromise. (Another former prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, famously complained that ‘Palestinians take and take while Israel gives and gives.’) That is an indecent charge, since the Palestinians made much the most far-reaching compromise of all when the PLO formally accepted the legitimacy of Israel within the 1949 armistice border. With that concession, Palestinians ceded their claim to more than half the territory that the UN’s partition resolution had assigned to its Arab inhabitants. They have never received any credit for this wrenching concession, made years before Israel agreed that Palestinians had a right to statehood in any part of Palestine. The notion that further border adjustments should be made at the expense of the 22 per cent of the territory that remains to the Palestinians is deeply offensive to them, and understandably so.

Nonetheless, the Palestinians agreed at the Camp David summit to adjustments to the pre-1967 border that would allow large numbers of West Bank settlers – about 70 per cent – to remain within the Jewish state, provided they received comparable territory on Israel’s side of the border. Barak rejected this.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

Badbrains, I'm very sorry, but the Palestinians do not have a right of return

Yes they do. Stop lying.

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/d/Co ... ils/i/2152

UN Resolution 194:

The clearest and most direct piece of international law that affirms the right of the Palestinian refugees to be repatriated is Article 11 of UN General Assembly Resolution 194, ratified on 11 December 1948. Vis-'-vis the situation in Palestine, the General Assembly declared that

'the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live in peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for the loss of or damage to property which, under the principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.'

The resolution also created the Conciliation Commission for Palestine, which it instructed to 'facilitate' the aforementioned purpose. This resolution has been affirmed by the General Assembly over 40 times (most recently in General Assembly Resolution 45/73 of 11 December 1990), and represents the strongest claim under international law for the inalienable rights of repatriation available to the Palestinian refugees. Its language is clear and exacting, yet its goal remains as far from realization as the day the resolution was enacted.

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

Articulating several principles upheld by Resolution 194 and applying them on a universal scale, the Declaration states in Article 13(2) that '[e]veryone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and return to his own country.' In a similar vein, Article 17(2) declares that '[n]o one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.' These provisions would seem to support the contention that the Palestinian refugees from the 1948 hostilities should be allowed to repatriate. Although, strictly speaking, the Declaration is not legally binding upon the member states of the UN, it effectively articulates the standards through which stateless Palestinian refugees can make a plausible case for their own repatriation.

Fourth Geneva Convention:

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 provides more legal authority for the Palestinian refugees' case. Israel has signed and ratified the Convention, and therefore its provisions can be construed as applicable, even retroactively, to the events of 1947-48. Article 49 states that 'ndividual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.' Since Israel has actually carried out such mass population transfers of Palestinian refugees by means of force and psychological warfare, it stands in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

While there is no explicit language in the Convention regarding its retroactive application, the expulsion of the Palestinian refugees from their homeland represents a violation of the spirit and letter of international law articulated repeatedly prior, during, and after the war of 1948. Article 49 of the Convention embodies the opinion of the international community regarding persons displaced during war, and further buttresses international opinion on the right of return of the Palestinian refugees as enunciated by UN Resolution 194.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

Badbrains, I'm very sorry, but the Palestinians do not have a right of return, and here I am speaking in practical, not philosophical terms.

Why don't you try speaking in terms of International law instead?

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

And you think that it is ok that Palestinian refugees in Lebanon (to focus on one country, but this holds for the others as well) are legally barred from acquiring Lebanese citizenship and equal rights under the law, and are forced to live in refugee camps despite either having been born there and lived their entire lives (which makes the idea that they are refugees somewhat strange) or have been residents of Lebanon for over 60 years? Even if you think that all the blame for the refugees should be put on Israel (which I do not agree with, but that is beside the point), the treatment of the refugees by their Arab hosts is nothing less than immoral.

Has it occurred to you that maybe the Palestinian refugees aren't seeking Lebanese, or Jordanian, or Egyptian citizenship? That what they in fact want is to be able to return to their homes which were occupied by the Zionists in 1948 and 1967?
It's Israel that's forcing them to live in refugee camps by denying them their right of return under international law.

badbrains

Byrnzie wrote:

yosi wrote:

Badbrains, I'm very sorry, but the Palestinians do not have a right of return, and here I am speaking in practical, not philosophical terms.

Why don't you try speaking in terms of International law instead?

Man yosi, listen to what you're saying bro. They don't have a right to return to there OWN land....wow, yosi, don't you guys (I know the GOVERNMENT doesn't) have any hearts??? Do you guys know how you look and sound to people everywhere when you say something like that??? Man, is the world really this fucked up?? Do people honestly believe that?? Unfortunately, "SOME" actually do.....

......no yosi, it is I that's very sorry you feel that way. It's a shame, It really is.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

As a sovereign nation Israel has the right to define itself as a democratic and Jewish state.

Why doesn't it just declare itself a democratic state? I agree with this fella:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/966952.html

Shattering a 'national mythology'
Ofri Ilani

"In the Israeli discourse about roots there is a degree of perversion. This is an ethnocentric, biological, genetic discourse. But Israel has no existence as a Jewish state: If Israel does not develop and become an open, multicultural society we will have a Kosovo in the Galilee. The consciousness concerning the right to this place must be more flexible and varied, and if I have contributed with my book to the likelihood that I and my children will be able to live with the others here in this country in a more egalitarian situation - I will have done my bit.

"We must begin to work hard to transform our place into an Israeli republic where ethnic origin, as well as faith, will not be relevant in the eyes of the law. Anyone who is acquainted with the young elites of the Israeli Arab community can see that they will not agree to live in a country that declares it is not theirs. If I were a Palestinian I would rebel against a state like that, but even as an Israeli I am rebelling against it."

redrock

yosi wrote:

redrock wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

I have never seen so much hate towards the jews as I see on this board. some of you make me sick. Why don't you just admit it. You hate the jews. :evil:

There is no hate against jews. There is anger, revulsion, etc. against the zionist Israeli government, with all its implications.

Yeah, I'm going to disagree with you redrock. This is purely my own intuition, but I definitely feel that at times the tone in which Israel is discussed by certain people here belies a hatred that goes beyond political disagreements and anger over policies. And yes, I know that people will say that I am trying to shut down dissent by invoking Antisemitism. I am doing no such thing. Antisemitism exists, and more often than not it is expressed in its modern incarnation as anti-Israelism or anti-Zionism. That is not to say that one cannot be anti-Israel without being antisemitic, only that it is legitimate to question and examine the motivations for vehement anti-Israel sentiments to see whether they conceal antisemitism. If anyone is interested in hard data I refer you to Dr. Charles Small, director of The Yale Initiative for the Study of Antisemitism.

:roll: I can guess who you may refer to with this post. I know one of them. You may feel 'victimized' and want to believe this as it is an easy argument, but it's simply not the case. Israel's actions commands this kind of vehemence.

Let's not, yet again, go down that path - we 'attack' Israel, therefore we must be jew haters. :roll:

End of story.

redrock

yosi wrote:

Badbrains, I'm very sorry, but the Palestinians do not have a right of return, and here I am speaking in practical, not philosophical terms.

How about just adhering to the law terms? Of course they have a right to return.

yosi wrote:

Israel would either have to ...... cease being Jewish.
.

You hit it on the nail. Fear of Israel not having a majority of inhabitants being jewish. This relates to the arabs in Israel not being granted the same rights as jews.

yosi wrote:

...the destruction of Israel (even by non-violent means) would, to my mind, constitute a grave historical injustice.

Historical? Again mention of historical ...... :roll: Injustice for whom?

yosi wrote:

Sure, but two wrongs don't make a right.

I see one wrong that could be put right if only Israel would adhere to the UN resolutions

yosi

badbrains wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

yosi wrote:

Badbrains, I'm very sorry, but the Palestinians do not have a right of return, and here I am speaking in practical, not philosophical terms.

Why don't you try speaking in terms of International law instead?

Man yosi, listen to what you're saying bro. They don't have a right to return to there OWN land....wow, yosi, don't you guys (I know the GOVERNMENT doesn't) have any hearts??? Do you guys know how you look and sound to people everywhere when you say something like that??? Man, is the world really this fucked up?? Do people honestly believe that?? Unfortunately, "SOME" actually do.....

......no yosi, it is I that's very sorry you feel that way. It's a shame, It really is.

Badbrains, if the choice is between granting the "right of return" to the Palestinians refugees, and the continued existence of the State of Israel as both a democracy and a Jewish state (and that is quite clearly the choice, since the two are mutually exclusive) I choose the latter, and I do not in any way think that this is an immoral choice. Is this reality tragic for the refugees? Yes. Absolutely. But that is reality and it isn't going to change. Perhaps in principle the refugees should have a right of return, perhaps not. But the fact is that reality will always trump principle, and the reality precludes the right of return.

yosi

redrock wrote:

yosi wrote:

Badbrains, I'm very sorry, but the Palestinians do not have a right of return, and here I am speaking in practical, not philosophical terms.

How about just adhering to the law terms? Of course they have a right to return.

yosi wrote:

Israel would either have to ...... cease being Jewish.
.

You hit it on the nail. Fear of Israel not having a majority of inhabitants being jewish. This relates to the arabs in Israel not being granted the same rights as jews.

yosi wrote:

...the destruction of Israel (even by non-violent means) would, to my mind, constitute a grave historical injustice.

Historical? Again mention of historical ...... :roll: Injustice for whom?

yosi wrote:

Sure, but two wrongs don't make a right.

I see one wrong that could be put right if only Israel would adhere to the UN resolutions

It would be an injustice to the Jews. We have the same right to national self-determination as every other people, and I'm quite sorry but we aren't about to give that up.

badbrains

Just imagine if the 2 were switched and it was the Jews wanting a right to return. But the Palestinians wouldn't allow them to. Would it be concidered "anti-Semitic" then?? But because it's not, and it's Israel who holds the power (big bad ass us in it's corner), it's then perceived "OK!" and now you pretty much said to fucken bad for the Palestinians, they CANT "comeback" home...WOW, I'm shocked that you yosi, would have such a belief. After what your people went through, to now basically victimizing a people for 40+ years. I'm sadened to hear such a fuck-you attitude. I really am.

redrock

yosi wrote:

It would be an injustice to the Jews. We have the same right to national self-determination as every other people, and I'm quite sorry but we aren't about to give that up.

:roll: An injustice to the Jews.... Please :roll:

You're basically saying that Jews are a biggotted and racist people who will spare no means to exclude any other. Nice.....

Self-determination is fine but not to the detriment of others who have the equal right. What is your motivation? A 'pure' Israel? Seems like it.

Israel is an 'artificial' country, it's borders first created around lands of different peoples. These people, though many have been displaced, have the SAME RIGHT (if not more) to the land than recent immigrants that happened to be of jewish faith. Then again, Israel is probably working on the saying 'possession is nine-tenths of the law'.

You might find it strange, but I know MANY jews and what I hear from them is nothing like what I hear from you. I am afraid you project a very zionist and nasty point of view. As much as you claim to see both sides, just these last few posts show that you really don't give a shit about the palestinians or non-jews. A thorn in your side really - better off without them. And you accuse 'us' of being racist and anti-semitic :roll: What are you?

Despicable.

I'm sure you will try to 'defend' yourself, claiming your 'expertise', again defining yourself through your father, mother, brothers, sisters, uncles and aunts, but there is nothing to defend. You have yet again, but more obviously, shown your true self. And it's nice a nice sight.

yosi

Redrock, I feel no need to defend myself to you. You very clearly feel that the rights of Jews are less important than the rights of others. I don't deny the Palestinians a right to self-determination. I strongly believe that the Palestinians should have a state. I just don't think that the exercise of that right justifies the nullification of my people's rights.

I do not desire a "pure" state. I have no problem with Israel having non-Jewish citizens. In fact I am planning on visiting Umm al-Fahum (an Arab village in Israel) next week with an Israeli friend who is working with an Israeli-Arab man to help him open a museum that will celebrate Palestinian cultural heritage. I'm not even insulted by your comments. At this point I just feel that a lot of you are comically unaware of the realities here. You read these hysterically partisan websites and see the pictures (thank you Byrnzie) and you assume that that is all there is. Well the truth is that there is an entire reality that you all know nothing about.

An example. Two days ago I spent the day in the Old City in Jerusalem walking around the Arab and Christian quarters. Israelis and Palestinians mingle freely here. People are friendly to each other. You see things that are unexpected and touching. There was an Ethiopian christian priest outside of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre who I saw chatting with an Ethiopian-Israeli policeman, I assume in their native language. I know a wonderful Orthodox Jewish rabbi who lives in the Jewish quarter who knows every Arab merchant in the souk (the market) by name, and is greeted warmly by them when he stops by. The point is that while you all seem to think that the reality here is violence, the truth is that most people are struggling to live together, not trying to kill each other.

You have a problem with my insistence that Israel be a Jewish state. Frankly I don't care what you think. I expect Israel to act morally, both in terms of how it conducts its internal affairs and how it treats the Palestinians. There is much room for improvement on both counts. I will be the first to acknowledge that, but I do so with an understanding of the nuances and the realities of the situation here, not the crude dichotomies that characterize much of what is said in these forums.

redrock

yosi wrote:

The point is that while you all seem to think that the reality here is violence, the truth is that most people are struggling to live together, not trying to kill each other..

No we don't Yosi. The israelis have a lovely life. Nice homes, nice schools for the kids, good food, good jobs, plenty of lovely money to be able to take holidays and go abroad whenever they wish.... No, violence is not reality for the majority of israelis. It is the reality for the Palestinians of Gaza.

And whatever you say, whatever anecdote you would like to share, you have bluntly shown your true colours. Just go back and read your posts.

Though you may think you are so much more educated and learned than 'us', you are not. You are also not the only one that knows how the reality of life in Israel. No one here has a problem with a jewish state. We all have a problem with israel blantantly oppressing and using violence against a people. We all have a problem with israel not wanting peace (though they say they do... )

Your whole post is just full of empty words, especially when read together with other things you have posted.

The ignore function will serve a purpose.

yosi

That's it. I'm done for now. There is not point in this. None of you are interested in a discussion that is anything but an eager chorus ready to agree with every word you say. If anyone wants to have a fruitful and respectful conversation just PM me. Peace. May it come soon.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

At this point I just feel that a lot of you are comically unaware of the realities here. You read these hysterically partisan websites and see the pictures (thank you Byrnzie) and you assume that that is all there is. Well the truth is that there is an entire reality that you all know nothing about.

An example. Two days ago I spent the day in the Old City in Jerusalem walking around the Arab and Christian quarters. Israelis and Palestinians mingle freely here. People are friendly to each other. You see things that are unexpected and touching. There was an Ethiopian christian priest outside of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre who I saw chatting with an Ethiopian-Israeli policeman, I assume in their native language. I know a wonderful Orthodox Jewish rabbi who lives in the Jewish quarter who knows every Arab merchant in the souk (the market) by name, and is greeted warmly by them when he stops by. The point is that while you all seem to think that the reality here is violence, the truth is that most people are struggling to live together, not trying to kill each other.

Wow! Sounds like a lovely place. I wonder if Gaza is the same? Maybe I'll pack some swimming trunks and a beach towel and take a vacation there this summer.