Badbrains, I'm very sorry, but the Palestinians do not have a right of return, and here I am speaking in practical, not philosophical terms.
Why don't you try speaking in terms of International law instead?
Man yosi, listen to what you're saying bro. They don't have a right to return to there OWN land....wow, yosi, don't you guys (I know the GOVERNMENT doesn't) have any hearts??? Do you guys know how you look and sound to people everywhere when you say something like that??? Man, is the world really this fucked up?? Do people honestly believe that?? Unfortunately, "SOME" actually do.....
......no yosi, it is I that's very sorry you feel that way. It's a shame, It really is.
Badbrains, if the choice is between granting the "right of return" to the Palestinians refugees, and the continued existence of the State of Israel as both a democracy and a Jewish state (and that is quite clearly the choice, since the two are mutually exclusive) I choose the latter, and I do not in any way think that this is an immoral choice. Is this reality tragic for the refugees? Yes. Absolutely. But that is reality and it isn't going to change. Perhaps in principle the refugees should have a right of return, perhaps not. But the fact is that reality will always trump principle, and the reality precludes the right of return.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Israel would either have to ...... cease being Jewish.
.
You hit it on the nail. Fear of Israel not having a majority of inhabitants being jewish. This relates to the arabs in Israel not being granted the same rights as jews.
I see one wrong that could be put right if only Israel would adhere to the UN resolutions
It would be an injustice to the Jews. We have the same right to national self-determination as every other people, and I'm quite sorry but we aren't about to give that up.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Just imagine if the 2 were switched and it was the Jews wanting a right to return. But the Palestinians wouldn't allow them to. Would it be concidered "anti-Semitic" then?? But because it's not, and it's Israel who holds the power (big bad ass us in it's corner), it's then perceived "OK!" and now you pretty much said to fucken bad for the Palestinians, they CANT "comeback" home...WOW, I'm shocked that you yosi, would have such a belief. After what your people went through, to now basically victimizing a people for 40+ years. I'm sadened to hear such a fuck-you attitude. I really am.
It would be an injustice to the Jews. We have the same right to national self-determination as every other people, and I'm quite sorry but we aren't about to give that up.
:roll: An injustice to the Jews.... Please :roll:
You're basically saying that Jews are a biggotted and racist people who will spare no means to exclude any other. Nice.....
Self-determination is fine but not to the detriment of others who have the equal right. What is your motivation? A 'pure' Israel? Seems like it.
Israel is an 'artificial' country, it's borders first created around lands of different peoples. These people, though many have been displaced, have the SAME RIGHT (if not more) to the land than recent immigrants that happened to be of jewish faith. Then again, Israel is probably working on the saying 'possession is nine-tenths of the law'.
You might find it strange, but I know MANY jews and what I hear from them is nothing like what I hear from you. I am afraid you project a very zionist and nasty point of view. As much as you claim to see both sides, just these last few posts show that you really don't give a shit about the palestinians or non-jews. A thorn in your side really - better off without them. And you accuse 'us' of being racist and anti-semitic :roll: What are you?
Despicable.
I'm sure you will try to 'defend' yourself, claiming your 'expertise', again defining yourself through your father, mother, brothers, sisters, uncles and aunts, but there is nothing to defend. You have yet again, but more obviously, shown your true self. And it's nice a nice sight.
Redrock, I feel no need to defend myself to you. You very clearly feel that the rights of Jews are less important than the rights of others. I don't deny the Palestinians a right to self-determination. I strongly believe that the Palestinians should have a state. I just don't think that the exercise of that right justifies the nullification of my people's rights.
I do not desire a "pure" state. I have no problem with Israel having non-Jewish citizens. In fact I am planning on visiting Umm al-Fahum (an Arab village in Israel) next week with an Israeli friend who is working with an Israeli-Arab man to help him open a museum that will celebrate Palestinian cultural heritage. I'm not even insulted by your comments. At this point I just feel that a lot of you are comically unaware of the realities here. You read these hysterically partisan websites and see the pictures (thank you Byrnzie) and you assume that that is all there is. Well the truth is that there is an entire reality that you all know nothing about.
An example. Two days ago I spent the day in the Old City in Jerusalem walking around the Arab and Christian quarters. Israelis and Palestinians mingle freely here. People are friendly to each other. You see things that are unexpected and touching. There was an Ethiopian christian priest outside of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre who I saw chatting with an Ethiopian-Israeli policeman, I assume in their native language. I know a wonderful Orthodox Jewish rabbi who lives in the Jewish quarter who knows every Arab merchant in the souk (the market) by name, and is greeted warmly by them when he stops by. The point is that while you all seem to think that the reality here is violence, the truth is that most people are struggling to live together, not trying to kill each other.
You have a problem with my insistence that Israel be a Jewish state. Frankly I don't care what you think. I expect Israel to act morally, both in terms of how it conducts its internal affairs and how it treats the Palestinians. There is much room for improvement on both counts. I will be the first to acknowledge that, but I do so with an understanding of the nuances and the realities of the situation here, not the crude dichotomies that characterize much of what is said in these forums.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
The point is that while you all seem to think that the reality here is violence, the truth is that most people are struggling to live together, not trying to kill each other..
No we don't Yosi. The israelis have a lovely life. Nice homes, nice schools for the kids, good food, good jobs, plenty of lovely money to be able to take holidays and go abroad whenever they wish.... No, violence is not reality for the majority of israelis. It is the reality for the Palestinians of Gaza.
And whatever you say, whatever anecdote you would like to share, you have bluntly shown your true colours. Just go back and read your posts.
Though you may think you are so much more educated and learned than 'us', you are not. You are also not the only one that knows how the reality of life in Israel. No one here has a problem with a jewish state. We all have a problem with israel blantantly oppressing and using violence against a people. We all have a problem with israel not wanting peace (though they say they do... )
Your whole post is just full of empty words, especially when read together with other things you have posted.
That's it. I'm done for now. There is not point in this. None of you are interested in a discussion that is anything but an eager chorus ready to agree with every word you say. If anyone wants to have a fruitful and respectful conversation just PM me. Peace. May it come soon.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
At this point I just feel that a lot of you are comically unaware of the realities here. You read these hysterically partisan websites and see the pictures (thank you Byrnzie) and you assume that that is all there is. Well the truth is that there is an entire reality that you all know nothing about.
An example. Two days ago I spent the day in the Old City in Jerusalem walking around the Arab and Christian quarters. Israelis and Palestinians mingle freely here. People are friendly to each other. You see things that are unexpected and touching. There was an Ethiopian christian priest outside of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre who I saw chatting with an Ethiopian-Israeli policeman, I assume in their native language. I know a wonderful Orthodox Jewish rabbi who lives in the Jewish quarter who knows every Arab merchant in the souk (the market) by name, and is greeted warmly by them when he stops by. The point is that while you all seem to think that the reality here is violence, the truth is that most people are struggling to live together, not trying to kill each other.
Wow! Sounds like a lovely place. I wonder if Gaza is the same? Maybe I'll pack some swimming trunks and a beach towel and take a vacation there this summer.
Comments
Badbrains, if the choice is between granting the "right of return" to the Palestinians refugees, and the continued existence of the State of Israel as both a democracy and a Jewish state (and that is quite clearly the choice, since the two are mutually exclusive) I choose the latter, and I do not in any way think that this is an immoral choice. Is this reality tragic for the refugees? Yes. Absolutely. But that is reality and it isn't going to change. Perhaps in principle the refugees should have a right of return, perhaps not. But the fact is that reality will always trump principle, and the reality precludes the right of return.
It would be an injustice to the Jews. We have the same right to national self-determination as every other people, and I'm quite sorry but we aren't about to give that up.
:roll: An injustice to the Jews.... Please :roll:
You're basically saying that Jews are a biggotted and racist people who will spare no means to exclude any other. Nice.....
Self-determination is fine but not to the detriment of others who have the equal right. What is your motivation? A 'pure' Israel? Seems like it.
Israel is an 'artificial' country, it's borders first created around lands of different peoples. These people, though many have been displaced, have the SAME RIGHT (if not more) to the land than recent immigrants that happened to be of jewish faith. Then again, Israel is probably working on the saying 'possession is nine-tenths of the law'.
You might find it strange, but I know MANY jews and what I hear from them is nothing like what I hear from you. I am afraid you project a very zionist and nasty point of view. As much as you claim to see both sides, just these last few posts show that you really don't give a shit about the palestinians or non-jews. A thorn in your side really - better off without them. And you accuse 'us' of being racist and anti-semitic :roll: What are you?
Despicable.
I'm sure you will try to 'defend' yourself, claiming your 'expertise', again defining yourself through your father, mother, brothers, sisters, uncles and aunts, but there is nothing to defend. You have yet again, but more obviously, shown your true self. And it's nice a nice sight.
I do not desire a "pure" state. I have no problem with Israel having non-Jewish citizens. In fact I am planning on visiting Umm al-Fahum (an Arab village in Israel) next week with an Israeli friend who is working with an Israeli-Arab man to help him open a museum that will celebrate Palestinian cultural heritage. I'm not even insulted by your comments. At this point I just feel that a lot of you are comically unaware of the realities here. You read these hysterically partisan websites and see the pictures (thank you Byrnzie) and you assume that that is all there is. Well the truth is that there is an entire reality that you all know nothing about.
An example. Two days ago I spent the day in the Old City in Jerusalem walking around the Arab and Christian quarters. Israelis and Palestinians mingle freely here. People are friendly to each other. You see things that are unexpected and touching. There was an Ethiopian christian priest outside of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre who I saw chatting with an Ethiopian-Israeli policeman, I assume in their native language. I know a wonderful Orthodox Jewish rabbi who lives in the Jewish quarter who knows every Arab merchant in the souk (the market) by name, and is greeted warmly by them when he stops by. The point is that while you all seem to think that the reality here is violence, the truth is that most people are struggling to live together, not trying to kill each other.
You have a problem with my insistence that Israel be a Jewish state. Frankly I don't care what you think. I expect Israel to act morally, both in terms of how it conducts its internal affairs and how it treats the Palestinians. There is much room for improvement on both counts. I will be the first to acknowledge that, but I do so with an understanding of the nuances and the realities of the situation here, not the crude dichotomies that characterize much of what is said in these forums.
No we don't Yosi. The israelis have a lovely life. Nice homes, nice schools for the kids, good food, good jobs, plenty of lovely money to be able to take holidays and go abroad whenever they wish.... No, violence is not reality for the majority of israelis. It is the reality for the Palestinians of Gaza.
And whatever you say, whatever anecdote you would like to share, you have bluntly shown your true colours. Just go back and read your posts.
Though you may think you are so much more educated and learned than 'us', you are not. You are also not the only one that knows how the reality of life in Israel. No one here has a problem with a jewish state. We all have a problem with israel blantantly oppressing and using violence against a people. We all have a problem with israel not wanting peace (though they say they do... )
Your whole post is just full of empty words, especially when read together with other things you have posted.
The ignore function will serve a purpose.
Wow! Sounds like a lovely place. I wonder if Gaza is the same? Maybe I'll pack some swimming trunks and a beach towel and take a vacation there this summer.