Israel to triple West Bank settlements

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

Language - Hebrew. No matter where in the world Jews have always shared Hebrew as a common language. Though for thousands of years Hebrew was not a spoken language it was universally used by Jews as a language for prayer and ritual observance, as well as study. There are letters between wide-flung Jewish communities and rabbis written in Hebrew, since that was the language they shared. For example there are letters from communities in Europe asking rabbis in what is now Iraq questions about matters of ritual observance. The letters were written in Hebrew, and clearly the correspondents were able to understand each other.

Jews and other inhabitants of Israel learn to speak Hebrew on arrival there, but Jews in other parts of the world speak the language of the place where they live. Most Jews will have known some biblical Hebrew, enough to follow a synagogue service, but that doesn't necessarily mean they could carry on a conversation in Hebrew. More European Jews spoke Yiddish rather than Hebrew, though again, their first language would have been that of their native country, be it German, Polish, or Russian.

yosi wrote:

Culture - Judaism. Judaism is not simply a religion wherein you go to synagogue on Saturday, say a few prayers and call it a day. It is an all encompassing way of life. It defines virtually every aspect of a person's daily existence. It is, quite simply, a culture, and it was shared by Jews the world over. Some communities developed different particular customs, or interpreted certain laws in different ways, but the foundations were the same everywhere.

Not all Jews adhere to Judaism. And it's a big leap to say that it's an all encompassing way of life. For Orthodox Jews it may be an all-encompassing way of life, but that's not the case for most Jews.

http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles2/demographics.htm
The National Jewish Population Study of 1970 revealed 47 percent of American Jews claimed synagogue membership. More recent localized demographic studies showed figures ranging from 26 percent in Los Angeles to 84 percent in St. Paul. Taking an average by population size, it gives us approximately the same figure as the NJPS.

yosi wrote:

History - clearly the histories of Jewish communities diverged in the diaspora, but we all share the same history up to the Roman exile. Not to mention the fact that many Jewish communities maintained contact with other communities around the world, and that the history of the Jewish people, at least in Europe, is marked by repeated migrations, such that the histories of many of these communities are incredibly intertwined. As for Israel, Israel is actually the central thread running through all three things discussed here. Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people. Hebrew arose in Israel, Judaism arose in Israel, and the shared ancient history of the Jewish people the world over is the history of the Jews in Israel.

Converts become part of the Jewish people through learning. One cannot simply be tapped on the head and declared Jewish. You study for conversion. You learn Hebrew, you learn Judaism, you become part of the culture, and in doing so you become another link in the unbroken chain of Jewish history. I'll grant you that there are some sketchy things that go on today, and perhaps this Peruvian thing is one of them.

I actually find your position kind of humorous. Your argument against the existence of a Jewish people is that there were converts to Judaism who were therefore not ethnically Jewish. And yet you keep accusing me of racism, when you are the one who is trotting out arguments based in race. There is no unitary Jewish race. There is a Jewish people, or nation if you prefer.

Even if you don't accept the fact of shared Jewish history, language, and culture (in which case I would simply say that you clearly don't know the first thing about Judaism, and perhaps if you're interested in having informed opinions you should find a university with a good Jewish Studies Department), the Jewish people exist by virtue of the fact that we recognize ourselves as a nation.

No, the Zionists declared the Jewish people to be a nation, although history proves otherwise. There's no contradiction on my part. I said the 'Jewish people' is a fabrication. The fact that some Peruvians - and Madonna - can convert to Judaism and then declare that they have a homeland in Israel is ludicrous.

As for sharing a history up to the Roman exile, I didn't realize you were that old.

Anyway, I really have no interest in Judaism. I couldn't give a fuck about it. I'm interested in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

Byrnzie

Nice couple of t.v debates with Norman Finkelstein here:

Norman Finkelstein & Israel W. Charny - Institute on The Holocaust and Genocide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCKTKMFTprM

Norman Finkelstein & Ranaan Gissin - Former Advisor to Ariel Sharon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLB8DfhnJD0

polaris_x

i can't believe the guy brought up the first american settlers ... :(

Pepe Silvia

Byrnzie wrote:

Nice couple of t.v debates with Norman Finkelstein here:

Norman Finkelstein & Israel W. Charny - Institute on The Holocaust and Genocide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCKTKMFTprM

Norman Finkelstein & Ranaan Gissin - Former Advisor to Ariel Sharon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLB8DfhnJD0

thanks, i hadn't seen that 2nd one before

yosi

Byrnzie wrote:

yosi wrote:

From wikipedia:

Regarding Germany: "German law allows persons of German descent living in Eastern Europe (Aussiedler/Spätaussiedler ("late emigrants"; de:Aussiedler), see History of German settlement in Eastern Europe) to return to Germany and claim German citizenship. As with many legal implementations of the Right of Return, the "return" to Germany of individuals who may never have lived in Germany based on their ethnic origin has been controversial. The law is codified in Article 116 of the Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany, which provides access to German citizenship for anyone "who has been admitted to the territory of the German Reich within the boundaries of December 31, 1937 as a refugee or expellee of German ethnic origin or as the spouse or descendant of such person"."

Regarding Greece: "Various phenomena throughout Greek history (the extensive colonization by classical Greek city states, the vast expansion of Greek culture in Hellenistic times, the large dominions at times held by the Greek-speaking Byzantine Empire, and the energetic trading activity by Greeks under the Ottomans) all tended to create Greek communities far beyond the boundaries of modern Greece.

Recognizing this situation, Greece grants citizenship to broad categories of people of ethnic Greek ancestry who are members of the Greek diaspora, including individuals and families whose ancestors have been resident in diaspora communities outside the modern state of Greece for centuries or millennia([10])

"Foreign persons of Greek origin", who neither live in Greece nor hold Greek citizenship nor were necessarily born there, may become Greek citizens by enlisting in Greece's military forces, under article 4 of the Code of Greek Citizenship, as amended by the Acquisition of Greek Nationality by Aliens of Greek Origin Law (Law 2130/1993). Anyone wishing to do so must present a number of documents, including "[a]vailable written records ... proving the Greek origin of the interested person and his ancestors.""

The difference being that very few Jewish people have any ancestral connection to the land of Israel, apart from the small number living there at the turn of the 20th century.
But just simply converting to Judaism gives someone the 'right' to emigrate there. Though Palestinians are excluded from returning to their homeland by Israels racist laws.

Go back and read that bit about Greece again. I've put it in bold above. Replace "the modern state of Greece" with Israel and you essentially have Israel's right of return exactly. As for Palestinian refugees, this sounds callous, but they are victims of war. In essence shit happens, and once it does it very often cannot be undone. There are ethnic German refugees from Eastern Europe (they were expelled in the wake of WWII) living in Germany today (taken in, by the way, because of Germany's right of return law) many of whom would like to return to their old homes in Eastern Europe but are barred from doing so. There are probably over a million Jews living in Israel who fled out of fear or were forced out of Arab countries after Israel was established, leaving behind them vast amounts of wealth (many of these communities owned vast amounts of land) which I'm sure they'd love to be able to reclaim, but that is very clearly not going to happen either. Frankly I pity the refugees, but my outrage is really at the Arab countries that house them, legally barring them from citizenship and equal rights and forcing them to live in squalid refugee camps so that they can exploit their suffering to tar Israel.

yosi

Byrnzie, are the Palestinians a nation?

yosi

Just for kicks, and cause I'm curious, I'll repeat the question, and open it up to anyone aside from Byrnzie who wants to answer. Are the Palestinians a nation?

rebornFixer

yosi wrote:

Just for kicks, and cause I'm curious, I'll repeat the question, and open it up to anyone aside from Byrnzie who wants to answer. Are the Palestinians a nation?

Hmmm ... They are certainly a distinct cultural or ethnic group. A nation is debatable, although I'd say they at least approximate a (loose) confederation of groups of people ... Tribes is not the right word here ... Ethnic enclaves? They do not appear to be a politically organized body of people under a single government at this time.

badbrains

I don't give a FUCK what ANYONE thinks or believes. The Palestinians HAVE EVERY FUCKEN right to RETURN! Who the FUCK are any of us to say they DONT. Seriouslly, do you people have any hearts??? Israel has all these programs to send a Jew to Israel but you're telling me that the Palestinians have NO right or CANT go back to THERE country and land?? Here's me using my FIRST Amendment right, FUCK OFF to ALL who say they CANT. I don't a fuck who you are too...

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

There are probably over a million Jews living in Israel who fled out of fear or were forced out of Arab countries after Israel was established, leaving behind them vast amounts of wealth (many of these communities owned vast amounts of land) which I'm sure they'd love to be able to reclaim, but that is very clearly not going to happen either. Frankly I pity the refugees, but my outrage is really at the Arab countries that house them, legally barring them from citizenship and equal rights and forcing them to live in squalid refugee camps so that they can exploit their suffering to tar Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exo ... Arab_lands
Iraqi-born Ran Cohen, a former member of the Knesset, said: "I have this to say: I am not a refugee. I came at the behest of Zionism, due to the pull that this land exerts, and due to the idea of redemption. Nobody is going to define me as a refugee". Yemeni-born Yisrael Yeshayahu, former Knesset speaker, Labor Party, stated: "We are not refugees. [Some of us] came to this country before the state was born. We had messianic aspirations". And Iraqi-born Shlomo Hillel, also a former speaker of the Knesset, Labor Party, claimed: "I do not regard the departure of Jews from Arab lands as that of refugees. They came here because they wanted to, as Zionists."

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

Byrnzie, are the Palestinians a nation?

Not yet, but they would be by now if it weren't for you bunch of lying, thieving bastards.


Edit: I hope that's the answer you were looking for with your obvious baiting.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

Frankly I pity the refugees, but my outrage is really at the Arab countries that house them, legally barring them from citizenship and equal rights and forcing them to live in squalid refugee camps so that they can exploit their suffering to tar Israel.

Sure, poor Israel. You deny the Palestinians their right of return under international law because you are a racist, expansionist state, but it's the Arab countries fault. They won't assist Israel in it's ethnic cleansing campaign and therefore they are to be condemned. Frankly, I find your attitude pretty despicable.

http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann10142009.html
'When Arab states support and sustain the Palestinians, it is much more from genuine altruism than from bogus racial solidarity. But to the extent that Arabs do not do all that is expected of them - do not take in the Palestinians, do not invite them in as fellow-Arabs, the reason is simple. The Palestinians are not fellow-Arabs. They have no home, no 'homeland' if you like, but Palestine. Wondering why their 'brother Arabs' do not to take them in makes as much sense as wondering why Northern Irish Protestants would not welcome as brothers their 'fellow Anglophones' from Dublin or Watts or the slums of Kingston, Jamaica.'

Byrnzie

Meanwhile, looks like the Israelis are doing all they can to scupper any peace process:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8600285.stm

Thirteen Israeli air strikes hit Gaza Strip
Friday, 2 April 2010


Israeli planes have carried out 13 air strikes on the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip, Palestinian sources have told the BBC.

Four of the strikes took place near the town of Khan Younis, where two Israeli soldiers were killed in clashes with Palestinian fighters last week.

The Israeli military has told the BBC the operation was targeting four weapons factories.

The strikes are the most serious for more than a year, says the BBC's Jon Donnison from Jerusalem.

The director of ambulance and emergency in the Palestinian Ministry of Health, Dr Muawiya Hassanein, said that three children including an infant were slightly injured by flying debris.

Witnesses and Hamas officials said the Israeli raids targeted metal workshops, farms, a milk factory and small sites belonging to the military wing of Hamas.

'Retaliation'

"Israel will not tolerate terroristic activity inside Gaza that threatens Israeli citizens," the Israeli military said in a statement released to the BBC.

Palestinian news agencies reported that Israeli aircraft dropped leaflets over parts of Gaza on Thursday warning residents of retaliation for last Friday's killings of the soldiers in Khan Younis.

They were the first Israeli soldiers to be killed in hostile fire in Gaza in over a year. The military wing of Hamas claim responsibility for those attacks.

Hamas said police stations and training facilities were among the targets of Israel's overnight raids.

Tensions in the region are running high after a recent Israeli government announcement of plans to build 1,600 new homes for Jewish people in East Jerusalem, which the Palestinians want as a capital of a future state.

Militants in the Gaza Strip have recently stepped up rocket fire directed at Israel.

On Wednesday, they fired a rocket into an empty field in southern Israel, but there were no reports of casualties or damage, military sources said.

Corso

Byrnzie wrote:

Meanwhile, looks like the Israelis are doing all the can to scupper any peace proces:

What's new? Same old song and dance... I read most of this thread and some of this shit reminds me of the history between the American Gov and the Native Americans.

Byrnzie

Corso wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

Meanwhile, looks like the Israelis are doing all the can to scupper any peace proces:

What's new? Same old song and dance... I read most of this thread and some of this shit reminds me of the history between the American Gov and the Native Americans.

True. You have one side making concession after concession (treaty) and ceding more and more of their land, and the other side lying through their fucking teeth, stealing more and more land, and murdering and oppressing the native population at will - while also confining them into reservations (Palestinian enclaves - South African style Bantustans).

The American settlers also claimed self-defense. Some things never change.

WaveCameCrashin

I have never seen so much hate towards the jews as I see on this board. some of you make me sick. Why don't you just admit it. You hate the jews. :evil:

redrock

prfctlefts wrote:

I have never seen so much hate towards the jews as I see on this board. some of you make me sick. Why don't you just admit it. You hate the jews. :evil:

There is no hate against jews. There is anger, revulsion, etc. against the zionist Israeli government, with all its implications.

yosi

So let me get this straight Byrnzie. Nationhood is defined by having a state, and so the Palestinians are not yet a nation? If that is the case then by what right can they claim a state of their own? And you think that it is ok that Palestinian refugees in Lebanon (to focus on one country, but this holds for the others as well) are legally barred from acquiring Lebanese citizenship and equal rights under the law, and are forced to live in refugee camps despite either having been born there and lived their entire lives (which makes the idea that they are refugees somewhat strange) or have been residents of Lebanon for over 60 years? Even if you think that all the blame for the refugees should be put on Israel (which I do not agree with, but that is beside the point), the treatment of the refugees by their Arab hosts is nothing less than immoral.

yosi

Badbrains, I'm very sorry, but the Palestinians do not have a right of return, and here I am speaking in practical, not philosophical terms. As a sovereign nation Israel has the right to define itself as a democratic and Jewish state. Were millions of Palestinians to be granted a right of return (and here I'm assuming they would act on that right) Israel would either have to cease being a democracy or cease being Jewish. As a practical matter Israel will therefore never agree to such a right, and as a matter of principle (to bring principle back into the discussion) Israel shouldn't have to. Yes, the refugees are victims. But the destruction of Israel (even by non-violent means) would, to my mind, constitute a grave historical injustice. Were the refugees wronged? Sure, but two wrongs don't make a right.

yosi

redrock wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

I have never seen so much hate towards the jews as I see on this board. some of you make me sick. Why don't you just admit it. You hate the jews. :evil:

There is no hate against jews. There is anger, revulsion, etc. against the zionist Israeli government, with all its implications.

Yeah, I'm going to disagree with you redrock. This is purely my own intuition, but I definitely feel that at times the tone in which Israel is discussed by certain people here belies a hatred that goes beyond political disagreements and anger over policies. And yes, I know that people will say that I am trying to shut down dissent by invoking Antisemitism. I am doing no such thing. Antisemitism exists, and more often than not it is expressed in its modern incarnation as anti-Israelism or anti-Zionism. That is not to say that one cannot be anti-Israel without being antisemitic, only that it is legitimate to question and examine the motivations for vehement anti-Israel sentiments to see whether they conceal antisemitism. If anyone is interested in hard data I refer you to Dr. Charles Small, director of The Yale Initiative for the Study of Antisemitism.