The PJ sell-out debate ends here

Digital Twilight

DPrival78 wrote:

true, they don't have to explain anything to anyone. they're obviously free to do as they please.

but i do agree with what krymsin said about the "no fuckin sponsor" attitude that the band had for most of their career, and how that - in addition to the music - was what made them so appealing, and what earned them a ton of respect.

clearly, they've changed their views and their approach, and that's their prerogative. i wish they hadn't done some of the stuff they've done over the past few years, and i've cringed a few times, but i'm in too deep at this point to let it bother me too much. what they did the other day is truly lame, but i'm trying to pretend it didn't happen (hopefully, things like that don't become the norm).

the music and the shows are still unmatched in my eyes, and it will take a whole lot more of this type of corporate pandering to drive me away. i'm trying to put this target thing out of my head and focus on the tour coming up.

it could be a lot worse..

Not all big corporations are evil. Eddie actually said at the target thing about how they found a partner that reflects some of their own philanthrapy views ect... Obviously they think they found a partnership that works without compromising their own moral compass. They are in a band - they need to work with other companies for them to do what they do even more so now they haven't got a record company behind them.

They took on ticket master because they didn't like their monopoly on the industry and their corupt ethics - They requests advertisments from companies like 'dodge' maybe because of the same reasons or they don't want to be associated with products they have no intrest in but it doesnt mean to say that there cannot be any company / products that they believe in. Target has worked for PJ - got them a good deal in terms of a cut of the prophits, they could still sell that album through independant stores and 10C and still give them more freedom and control over their product and business model then any record company would give them. If Pearl Jam want to play a few songs in celebration of that partnership i'm all for it. I think people are looking far too much into it.


Besides - I would play 3 songs for some employees if there was a free buffet in it

krymsin

Digital Twilight wrote:

Besides - I would play 3 songs for some employees if there was a free buffet in it

emperpenguin

I hope to sell out one day

ReeenkRoink

krymsin wrote:

To the extent that this "debate" has devolved, it would be nice to hear a statement from the band.

We can sit on here and criticize or justify the band's decision to play a three-song set for the exclusive benefit of Target (or Oracle, or ...), but the reason we're even talking about this is because it's such a divergence from the origins of "no fuckin' sponsors."

This band prided itself on being beholden to no one. Corporate rock? Fuck off, bro -- this band wasn't gonna do it. Pandering to some suits for a big company party? Ain't gonna happen. And we knew it. We knew it because they told us they wouldn't. And that only served to endear more and more of us to them. It did for me, at least.

So when we get word of them (seemingly?) breaking from that philosophy, it would be nice to have a band spokesperson -- Kelly Curtis, a band member, Kat ... it makes no difference -- offer up a "hey guys, just so ya know ...," to those of us who long, long ago soared past casual listener and into full-fleged fanatic mode. I mean, how much time or effort could it take?

I'd venture to say that any kind of explanation would be met with a (mostly) collective: "Oh, okay ...," and that would be the end of it.

Back then it was cool to Rebel against Sponsorship etc.. Now its cool to have your songs on TV shows and Commercials. They have consistantly followed the trends of the day....

sunqueen

This is pure ridiculousness. Who effin cares. All I know is PJ puts on the best live shows and I love their music. They are all getting older now. Things and people change and thats ok. Have you ever been to a PJ show that didnt knock your socks off?? I just dont understand who this matters to. Chill out and keep it moving.

ComeToTX

krymsin wrote:

It's not about what they have to do or what they owe anybody. I never said they should tell us what's up -- i just said it would be nice.

I may be going out on a limb here, but i doubt anyone of the group want to be labelled "sell outs" or any of the other derogatory terms that's been cast about in this 20-plus page thread. And, i dunno -- they may even want us to understand why they did it.

Or maybe they just don't care, but -- for some reason -- i highly doubt that.

we could add 20 more pages with this thread discussing the lack of communication between the band/their mgmt./10c and the fans. we get most of our information on the band from the internet.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

it wasnt even mentioned on this site. that alone tells you they didnt want it to get much publicity.

for all you wonderful business majors out there, it doesnt even make much business sense. cancelling or avoiding shows in places with many fans who have given so much money to this band so that they can fit in a corporate 3 song show for Target? thats a slap in the face to a lot of people and pretty terrible long term business practice.

Better Dan

MrSmith wrote:

it wasnt even mentioned on this site. that alone tells you they didnt want it to get much publicity.

for all you wonderful business majors out there, it doesnt even make much business sense. cancelling or avoiding shows in places with many fans who have given so much money to this band so that they can fit in a corporate 3 song show for Target? thats a slap in the face to a lot of people and pretty terrible long term business practice.

Almost as much a slap in the face as doing 2 shows in LA, a festival in TX, then flying back to California for 2 more shows in LA (avoiding playing a 'real pj show' in TX or anywhere else in the South) :evil:

Digital Twilight

MrSmith wrote:

it wasnt even mentioned on this site. that alone tells you they didnt want it to get much publicity.

for all you wonderful business majors out there, it doesnt even make much business sense. cancelling or avoiding shows in places with many fans who have given so much money to this band so that they can fit in a corporate 3 song show for Target? thats a slap in the face to a lot of people and pretty terrible long term business practice.

I don't think they have cancelled or avoided doing any shows to do the target thing. Why mention on the board? It's not as if anyone could attend the show anyway.

Think your taking far too personally.

LikeAnOpeningBandForTheSun

Digital Twilight wrote:

Think your taking far too personally.

nothing personal. strictly business

The Juggler

JeffSide wrote:

Ok, Well... I think I've had my fun.
Anymore will just make me more upset about the one outlet that I've had in my life as far back as I can remember.

Plus, I'll just start talking about how they are transforming into KISS.
Anyone notice you can buy ANY poster from the 2009 tour right now!
Or that all 4 philly posters were available for sale after the 4th show?
Either someone's getting pretty greedy or no one buys posters anymore!
Way to kill the poster market guys!!!

I wish Brad Klausen was around to chime in on this.


It really pains to to bash the band like this but I just cant take it anymore!
Everything they do now is dipped in shit!

what are you, 12 years old?

Hugh Freaking Dillon

The Jeagler wrote:

JeffSide wrote:

Ok, Well... I think I've had my fun.
Anymore will just make me more upset about the one outlet that I've had in my life as far back as I can remember.

Plus, I'll just start talking about how they are transforming into KISS.
Anyone notice you can buy ANY poster from the 2009 tour right now!
Or that all 4 philly posters were available for sale after the 4th show?
Either someone's getting pretty greedy or no one buys posters anymore!
Way to kill the poster market guys!!!

I wish Brad Klausen was around to chime in on this.


It really pains to to bash the band like this but I just cant take it anymore!
Everything they do now is dipped in shit!

what are you, 12 years old?

exactly. Jesus, I don't think the band ever intended for any fan to have to pay hundreds of dollars for a poster they missed out on getting at the gig.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

MrSmith wrote:

it wasnt even mentioned on this site. that alone tells you they didnt want it to get much publicity.

for all you wonderful business majors out there, it doesnt even make much business sense. cancelling or avoiding shows in places with many fans who have given so much money to this band so that they can fit in a corporate 3 song show for Target? thats a slap in the face to a lot of people and pretty terrible long term business practice.

and why should a private gig be posted on their website? that doesn't make much sense. why doesn't eddie post what he had for breakfast today?

"slap in the face to a lot of people.......who have given so much money to this band". You talk like you have given them donations. They are not a charity. you bought merch you wanted. this band owes you jack shit. they are obviously doing whatever the fuck they want, exactly what they've always done, but now since it no longer suits your needs/wants/petty BS, you disagree with it. it's as simple as that.

end of story.

ten z

There is worse than what PJ is doing now.

Example: Queensryche, a band that is deep like PJ, have decided to do an cabaret show, complete with Go-Go dancers, drag queens, contortionists and jugglers. At the same time Queensryche will be performing their hits, which are deep unlike what is going on at the cabaret. If you want more info about this atrocity, here's the link: http://www.queensryche.com/2010/02/10/q ... e-cabaret/

Just be thankful that PJ isn't doing what Queensryche is doing.

Ledbetterman10

ten z wrote:

There is worse than what PJ is doing now.

Example: Queensryche, a band that is deep like PJ, have decided to do an cabaret show, complete with Go-Go dancers, drag queens, contortionists and jugglers. At the same time Queensryche will be performing their hits, which are deep unlike what is going on at the cabaret. If you want more info about this atrocity, here's the link: http://www.queensryche.com/2010/02/10/q ... e-cabaret/

Just be thankful that PJ isn't doing what Queensryche is doing.

Hey at least they're doing something different. PJ has always been just five guys on the stage playing. And there's nothing wrong with that. But there's also nothing wrong with theatrics that bands like Kiss, Alice Cooper and now I guess Queensryche use.

Digital Twilight

Ledbetterman10 wrote:

ten z wrote:

There is worse than what PJ is doing now.

Example: Queensryche, a band that is deep like PJ, have decided to do an cabaret show, complete with Go-Go dancers, drag queens, contortionists and jugglers. At the same time Queensryche will be performing their hits, which are deep unlike what is going on at the cabaret. If you want more info about this atrocity, here's the link: http://www.queensryche.com/2010/02/10/q ... e-cabaret/

Just be thankful that PJ isn't doing what Queensryche is doing.

Hey at least they're doing something different. PJ has always been just five guys on the stage playing. And there's nothing wrong with that. But there's also nothing wrong with theatrics that bands like Kiss, Alice Cooper and not I guess Queensryche use.

I agree. If they're gonna be having fun doing it then why not?

i shit and i stink

There was an interesting paradox recently in the UK. RATM going up against the X-Factor winner for number one. Sure, the backdrop was "we are agaisnt talent show tripe" but the reality was that if they had really been so against it they wouldn't have used the X-Factor brand as a way of getting so much publicity and renewed interest in their band. They would have seen the Facebook thingand said, "No thanks, we don't want to be associated with those guys at all." What actually happened was, they looked like the good guys, giving money to charity and playing free concerts, but they also benefitted greatly from the very brand they were 'fighting'. And... what's more, the winner of X-Factor sold 5 times more singles than he was predicted to sell before the whole rivalry started and got thousands of column inches when nobody would have otherwise been writing shit about him two days after he won. Then next week he had a number one record. And Simon Cowell, who was on the news every single day talking about how distasteful he thought the rivalry was, got lots of media exposure and made another bag load of cash. Everyone was really a winner.

I respect RATM and in no way think they did the wrong thing. People need to stop believing that any band can survive in the modern era without playing the marketing game, even bands with higher principles who support great causes.

I think we also have to take into consideration that early-90s bands are now 15 years past their commercial prime. When Ed and the guys were so gung-ho against sponsorship etc they could damned well afford to be as people were clamouring to buy their records.

I have not and will not lose respect for the band. Who among us here have really ever taken stands and been prepared to fight losing battles like they have? Especially those of you who continually call them sell outs...

Jeanwah

stranger34 wrote:

JeffSide wrote:

It's truly a sad day in the history of PJ.
Although they really sold long before today, They are just shoving it in people's faces now.
A few of us are trying to put our finger on when they jumped the shark.
Some say 2006, When they brought out the lasers during the shows and Ed was drinking water out of his wine bottle at every show.
I think it was even earlier... When Jack was booted.
So after going to 100 plus shows starting at Cameo 1992, I bid PJ adu.

R.I.P.
Pearl Jam
1990-2010


...1990-1998 Ed is rolling over in his grave...

1998 ed would despise 2010 ed

1998 Ed would be cursing out 2010 Ed on stage.

theoceansmademe

MrSmith wrote:

its all Matt Cameron's fault! bring back Jack Irons!

+1 for brining Jack back.

But hey at least they didn't play 3 off Backspacer.

I find that to be rather cool in itself.

theoceansmademe

doompony wrote:

03/16/10: Target Center, Minneapolis, MN
set: The Fixer, The Real Me, Porch
TFT Notes: Pearl Jam play a surprise 3-song set at Target’s national manager’s meeting. “The Fixer” was the first single featured in a Target commercial, filmed live from the Showbox. The Who’s “The Real Me” is dedicated to Snowboarder Shawn White who as a Target sponsored athlete was also at the event. Ed spoke for a few minutes before “Porch” about how the partnership with Target came about, saying how before all the guys in the band got to play music for a living, they all just loved playing music and it was important to them that when it came to the business side of things that they wanted to make sure they conducted business ethically and Target let them do that. Continuing, Ed said the partnership only worked because there was mutual respect about how to work together and there wasn’t a focus on the bottom line, and that they each learned a lot from each other.

this needs a bump, thanks for posting.