D. appear set to pass Senate bill without voting on it

Cliffy6745

Kucinich is voting yes, a good step.

Starfall

prfctlefts wrote:

Starfall wrote:

I thought you conservative fellows were all about keeping debt low and not borrowing money?

I am. Look there's no denying that Bush spent way to much,but that's not what this thread is about.

I understand that, and frankly I think we can both agree that this whole approach of "deem and pass" is probably not the best move politically.
What I don't understand is all this faux outrage being generated in the right wing echo chamber. After all:

"Deem and Pass" has been used often and by both parties. Democrats point out that Republicans used it quite a bit in the 1990s, in fact -- though not for something quite as large as this.
In this Congress, Democrats used "Deem and Pass" for raising the debt ceiling, which was tucked into the PayGo bill.

...and there wasn't a single squawk about it from the likes of National Review or any of the other conservative media outlets.

So really, the entire constitutionality question is moot, given that it's been around so long and nobody's bothered to seriously question it. All it is really is a procedural method - we can disagree on whether or not it's politically sound for the Democrats to do it this way, but I can't see it being illegal or unconstitutional, not after all this time.

Cliffy6745

Kildee voting yes, more of the Stupak clan to follow?

I am starting to feel really optimistic that this is going to pass.

KDH12

the whole abortion argument is driving me crazy, straight politics by fear.....

this was interesting

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =124784792

http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2010/03 ... _hous.html

g under p

Plummeting Death Reform

Peace

KDH12

:clap:

WaveCameCrashin

Starfall wrote:

"Deem and Pass" has been used often and by both parties. Democrats point out that Republicans used it quite a bit in the 1990s, in fact -- though not for something quite as large as this.
In this Congress, Democrats used "Deem and Pass" for raising the debt ceiling, which was tucked into the PayGo bill.

That's not a constituional argument.
That is.... They did it... So what, It wasn't right then and it sure as hell isn't right now to try and do this.Both parties at all times should comply with the constituion.

Starfall wrote:

So really, the entire constitutionality question is moot, given that it's been around so long and nobody's bothered to seriously question it. All it is really is a procedural method - we can disagree on whether or not it's politically sound for the Democrats to do it this way, but I can't see it being illegal or unconstitutional, not after all this time.

:? :? So just because the repukes got away with it we shoud just say the hell with it and violate our constitution ? Please tell me where does the constituion provide that a house of cogress can say that it passed a law when there's no vote taken ?

Starfall

Simple.

1. The vote on the Senate bill is inclusive in the reconciliation bill. If a House member doesn't agree with the Senate bill, then he or she can vote no. Plain and simple.
2. Enough of this faux constitutional argument. It's stated plain and simple in Article I:

5.2 Each House may determine the rules of its proceedings, punish its members for disorderly behavior, and with the concurrence of two thirds, expel a member.

So basically, if they decide that they want to vote by singing Pearl Jam songs, the Constitution allows them to do that.


Next question.

gimmesometruth27

Preamble of the US Constitution...

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

some can make the argument that promoting the general welfare would be providing universal, single payer health coverage...this already applies to emergency room care, why not general medical as well??

otter

This is one way to fundementally transform the United States of America.

This will open the flood gates to ginormous government. There will be no stopping Congress from passing new laws.

If you think Obama and the Dems are the greatest...remember that he won't be President forever and you might hate the next guy more than you hated the last one.

Pepe Silvia

otter wrote:

This is one way to fundementally transform the United States of America.

This will open the flood gates to ginormous government. There will be no stopping Congress from passing new laws.

If you think Obama and the Dems are the greatest...remember that he won't be President forever and you might hate the next guy more than you hated the last one.

congress can pass new laws whenever they vote for them....?

gimmesometruth27

otter wrote:

This is one way to fundementally transform the United States of America.

This will open the flood gates to ginormous government. There will be no stopping Congress from passing new laws.

If you think Obama and the Dems are the greatest...remember that he won't be President forever and you might hate the next guy more than you hated the last one.

ummmm ever hear of a VETO???

that can keep congress from passing new laws, and congress would have to secure 2/3 vote to override the veto...

Shawshank

I agree with most of you, that it would be great to have the ability to insure everyone. If anyone needs this to pass right now, it's me. My son was born with a heart defect that needs to be corrected surgically, but insurance companies won't provide a policy on him at all, because of that condition. I can't even get general insurance to cover everything BUT the heart condition. So the $50,000+ that it's going to cost for this procedure will come out of my pocket. Luckily for me, I can absorb that cost, but I can't fathom being a parent that is unable to do so. I don't believe whether we live or die should come down to whether we can afford it or not.

The unfortunate reality is, that is exactly what it comes down to. It's ridiculous that we live in this country, and we are in such a sad state. The money management within our government is beyond stupid. Our country may be the richest, as far as what we consume, but that is pretty much all we have become....a nation of consumers. Couple that with the fact that much of our consumption is done so on credit. A nation is not rich when we are debt spending. Just because you spend a million dollars on credit, does not mean you've added anything monetarily to our economy if you don't actually have the means to pay it back. Somewhere down the road, there is going to be a million dollar hole that needs to be filled by someone. At the VERY least, just to stay where we are now (which is in a real shit hole of debt) we'd need to cut the equivalent of the health care plan from our budget before it's passed. However, we all know that nothing is going to be cut.

As I said in another post, if your business' financial numbers looked like this: http://www.usdebtclock.org/ you wouldn't stay in business long, and you damn sure couldn't afford to give all your employees health care.

otter

Pepe Silvia wrote:

otter wrote:

This is one way to fundementally transform the United States of America.

This will open the flood gates to ginormous government. There will be no stopping Congress from passing new laws.

If you think Obama and the Dems are the greatest...remember that he won't be President forever and you might hate the next guy more than you hated the last one.

congress can pass new laws whenever they vote for them....?

prior to 1900 1 Senator could block legislation. Then around 1917 it was changed so 2/3 were needed then in the 70's it was reduced to 60 Senators stopped the filabuster and now in 2010 "if you have 51% of the vote you get your way 100% of the time"

Get it?

Pepe Silvia

otter wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

otter wrote:

This is one way to fundementally transform the United States of America.

This will open the flood gates to ginormous government. There will be no stopping Congress from passing new laws.

If you think Obama and the Dems are the greatest...remember that he won't be President forever and you might hate the next guy more than you hated the last one.

congress can pass new laws whenever they vote for them....?

prior to 1900 1 Senator could block legislation. Then around 1917 it was changed so 2/3 were needed then in the 70's it was reduced to 60 Senators stopped the filabuster and now in 2010 "if you have 51% of the vote you get your way 100% of the time"

Get it?

reconciliation was created in 1974 and has been used 22 times since 1980....the contract with america, bush's tax cuts in 2001, his changes to medicare, welfare reform bill, COBRA (which stands for Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1986 and signed by Reagan), the balanced budget act of 97....were all passed this way, it's hardly a new thing and it's not like just because it is passed through reconciliation doesn't mean the president is forced to sign it into law

i get it, i'm just not so sure that you do....

Starfall

otter wrote:

There will be no stopping Congress from passing new laws.

Yeah, heaven forbid that Congress be allowed to do what they're supposed to be doing. :roll:

otter wrote:

prior to 1900 1 Senator could block legislation. Then around 1917 it was changed so 2/3 were needed then in the 70's it was reduced to 60 Senators stopped the filabuster and now in 2010 "if you have 51% of the vote you get your way 100% of the time"

Get it?

Are you kidding? The Democrats can't get anything done in the Senate without the Republicans forcing a cloture vote for everything. An all time record, even for them.

Or if pictures help:




and

KDH12

so those that are opposed

what are they so afraid of and I need something other then debt, we are in debt right now becuase of almost 10 years of war in Iraq....

so what is there to fear, I don't get it... really

aerial

KDH12 wrote:

so those that are opposed

what are they so afraid of and I need something other then debt, we are in debt right now becuase of almost 10 years of war in Iraq....

so what is there to fear, I don't get it... really

No one knows what’s in the bill...Nancy says “we need to pass it so that we can find out what is in the bill” ....WTF?

g under p

KDH12 wrote:

so those that are opposed

what are they so afraid of and I need something other then debt, we are in debt right now becuase of almost 10 years of war in Iraq....

so what is there to fear, I don't get it... really

Our country....War is fine after 8 years even under false pretenses......health care is worse than a atomic bomb going off in this country. We love to blow up shit in other countries while within our own country we are comfortable with those dying within our borders.

Peace

aerial

g under p wrote:

KDH12 wrote:

so those that are opposed

what are they so afraid of and I need something other then debt, we are in debt right now becuase of almost 10 years of war in Iraq....

so what is there to fear, I don't get it... really

Our country....War is fine after 8 years even under false pretenses......health care is worse than a atomic bomb going off in this country. We love to blow up shit in other countries while within our own country we are comfortable with those dying within our borders.

Peace

You got to be kidding! Who loves blowing shit up?