Obviously throughout history this hasn't been followed or done, and yes we do have an inflated welfare state now, but do people not realize we have this in a basic sense because it's for everyone's best interest? Sometimes I think people forget this fact "
I guess that is where we will disagree fundamentally. I don't believe it is fact, I think it is great in theory, but you cannot prove either way as FACT that welfare benefits everyone. For every person who claims this i say, doesn't it make people realiant on the government for their needs. And they usually shoot back with yes but crime rates may sky rocket without these programs. There are definitely two sides to this coin, I just don't believe that giving someone something is good for them. Working for it is so much better in terms of benefits to society. I think if we eliminated all types of welfare in this country there would be a quick period of, for lack of a better term, chaos which would be followed by people beginning to realize they need to work hard to succeed in life and passing that value on to their children and their children's children. That may be a pipe dream, but it is the only thing that keeps me from completely throwing in the towel and moving to a self sustaining hobby farm and saying screw off to everyone. I have seen the welfare programs in action, I experience first hand the sense of entitlement that comes along with programs and it is disgusting. Who the fuck complains about a little bit longer wait when they pay ZERO for the healthcare we give them? it is maddening to no end to deal with people who are getting something for free and believe they are doing you a favor
edit:
this will be my last post as I have hijacked this thread. . . if anyone would like to continue in discussion just pm me, I would be happy to discuss this forever, of and thanks to all for the decency shown in the replys, that is a rarity on the internet these days
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
how would giving people healthcare force you to work 3 jobs??
That's not what I said, is it? Stop putting words in my mouth. That's the second time you did that.
I made my point. Our government can't govern, yet we're supposed to let them run a health care system? hardworking people bust their ass to provide and do the right thing for their family, and I don't think they should have to pay for those that DON'T. I'm not saying our medical system isn't messed up, just that THIS is not the way.
I am done on this subject. Let's just enjoy the PJ shall we? My bad for commenting on this. I should have known better. Sorry.
Can someone name one government program that works well, though?
None of them do. Anyone notice that the Post Office likely won't be around much longer?
:roll:
Oh wow. Some of you people need to stop swallowing right wing talking points and look at the facts. To name a few:
The highest customer satisfaction for health care insurance goes to 1. The Veterans Administration and 2. Medicare. The private insurance companies are a distant second. Guess who runs those two? The government.
You know how many payments Social Security has missed through its entire 40+ years of existence? I'll tell you at the bottom of this post.
Lastly, if the conservatives would stop undermining our current government safety nets (they've consistently borrowed from the Social Security trust fund for other funding, instead of, oh, submitting a PAYGO system like the so called fiscal conservatives they claim to be, or stop giving tax breaks to millionaires and billionaires) we would have a well run system of publis programs - we'd easily be able to fund Medicare Part E (Everyone), fully paid, if we stopped this stupid adventurism in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we restore tax rates to when Nixon was still President, we could easily restore our public school systems, public hospitals, and all of our crumbling infrastructure. Even with a simple thing like allowing Medicare to negotiate drug prices would have been hugely helpful, but the Bush Administration and the Republican Congress wouldn't allow that with Medicare Part D, and it was stripped out of the current health care bills even as Senator Dorgan had huge bipartisan support for this amendment.
The solution to the health PAYMENT problem is simple:
1. Make HSA's much more common so that people are putting away pre-tax dollars and paying for their healthcare essentially out of pocket up to their deductible. You can't tell me that healthcare costs won't be lower without insurance involved. After that, health insurance kicks in. Premiums would be much lower.
The issue of health care costs are a different matter, and can be addressed elsewhere. What you fail to see is that your proposal still doesn't solve a salient problem: in every country where there's a non-profit system of health insurance, they spend an average of 3-6% of their GDP on costs. In our country, we're already spending 20%.It also doesn't prevent private insurance companies from dropping patients when they're deemed too sick to be covered (recission) and prescreening them for "pre-existing conditions". In a public program like Medicare, or in Canada or the UK, nobody's excluded from coverage.
It also doesn't prevent private insurance companies from jacking up their rates to whatever level they want, which is what we recently saw with Anthem/Blue Cross in CA - they just proposed rate increases up to 39%. It also doesn't prevent them from paying their CEOs hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation, including luxury resorts, private jets, and gold plated utensils. Considering that not one single insurance company provides any sort of health care - all they do is take our money, take their cut, and pay our doctors - I have no reason to believe they should exist.
Furthermore, we already know this system of "savings accounts" doesn't work, as evidenced by the way our pension systems were systematically undermined by the Reagan administration by proposing things like IRAs - which are subject to the whims of the stock market and will expire after they're exhausted - to replace pension funds, which are lifetime and do not expire. When the financial meltdown occured, IRAs were hit very hard, while very few pension funds were. And you're still asking people to pay a lot of money up front, whereas with a single payer system like Medicare, or Canada or France, you wind up paying a much smaller amount up front and you don't have to worry about things like deductibles, copayments, and other ways you're milked by the industry.
In addition, we're already seeing private insurance plans with deductibles as high as $10k and $50k. I don't know what kind of income you have, but very few people I know in this economy can put away that kind of money in a regular savings account, much less an HSA.
2. Allow insurance companies to compete across state lines.
Another bogus claim. All you have to do is look at the deregulation of the credit card industry - two states wound up with all the credit card companies - South Dakota and Delaware - because they had very lax rules and very little regulation of the industry. As a result, states with strong protections for their citizens could not enforce those rules when the credit card company was based in a state with no rules. As long as there isn't a bottom line, strongly regulated insurance system, we're going to see the same thing happen.
I also think companies should get out of the business of providing health insurance. People should purchase their plans on their own with the extra money their employers can afford to pay them.
Youre missing the point of having insurance. When you have a lot of people under an insurance system, the system has the ability to cover catastrophic injuries or illnesses without depleting their funds, and they have more leverage to negotiate things like prices for medicines and medical equipment. Leaving people to buy stuff on their own will single handedly assure higher costs for the average citizen.
So when you have an entire government being able to negotiate better prices, it will reduce costs for everyone. It works not only in other countries, but with the VA, which routinely spends 50% less than we do for drugs and medicines.
(Answer to how many payments Social Security has missed in its entire history: zero.)
"It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
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I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
how would giving people healthcare force you to work 3 jobs??
That's not what I said, is it? Stop putting words in my mouth. That's the second time you did that.
I made my point. Our government can't govern, yet we're supposed to let them run a health care system? hardworking people bust their ass to provide and do the right thing for their family, and I don't think they should have to pay for those that DON'T. I'm not saying our medical system isn't messed up, just that THIS is not the way.
I am done on this subject. Let's just enjoy the PJ shall we? My bad for commenting on this. I should have known better. Sorry.
They run the Veterans Administration and Medicare just fine. if "socialized medicine" is good enough for our troops and our seniors, and they really, really like their systems, why shouldn't it be good enough for you and me?
As far as I'm concerned, it's the private insurance companies that don't deserve our money.
And finally, this incredibly selfish attitude I see among some of you here is appalling. The whole point of having insurance is to spread the risks around so that nobody has to suffer a bankruptcy because they can't afford the hospital bills if they've had a car crash, a heart attack, or long term dialysis.
Should I then be allowed to not pay for the roads you're driving on because I don't use them? Or unemployment coverage in your state because I don't live there? Or defund your police force because I will never use their services? If one of your kids develops leukemia, should you be expected to pay for the chemo, the radiation, the outpatient care, etc, all on your own?
Of course not. That's the point of having government - you ,know, "We The People".
Post edited by Starfall on
"It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
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I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
The VA is a joke. I have friends who could go there for free but they refuse.
Which highlights the problem I've pointed out before - if the conservatives would stop raiding Social Security for their own needs, we would still have it. And there's a really simple fix - remove the Social Security cap (currently at the first $100k). Do that and Social Security will stay robust for several generations at least, even maybe forever.
"It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
The VA is a joke. I have friends who could go there for free but they refuse.
Then why does our socialist military say this then?
WASHINGTON, Jan. 20, 2006 – Veterans continued to rate the care they receive through the Department of Veterans Affairs health care system higher than other Americans rate private-sector health care for the sixth consecutive year, a new annual report on customer satisfaction reveals.
For VA Secretary R. James Nicholson, the news is affirmation of what he called "the greatest story never told," that the VA offers top-quality care for its patients.
VA medical services received high marks during the annual American Customer Satisfaction Index, which has ranked customer satisfaction with various federal programs and private-sector industries and major companies since 1994.
Veterans who recently used VA services and were interviewed for the 2005 ACSI survey gave the VA's inpatient care a rating of 83 on a 100-point scale -- compared to a 73 rating for the private-sector health care industry. Veterans gave the VA a rating of 80 for outpatient care, five percentage points higher than the 75 rating for private-sector outpatient care and 9 percent higher than the average satisfaction rating for all federal services.
"Although VA has received many wonderful endorsements recently, the support of our veterans -- the people who know us best -- is the highest praise," Nicholson said.
"It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
how would giving people healthcare force you to work 3 jobs??
That's not what I said, is it? Stop putting words in my mouth. That's the second time you did that.
I made my point. Our government can't govern, yet we're supposed to let them run a health care system? hardworking people bust their ass to provide and do the right thing for their family, and I don't think they should have to pay for those that DON'T. I'm not saying our medical system isn't messed up, just that THIS is not the way.
I am done on this subject. Let's just enjoy the PJ shall we? My bad for commenting on this. I should have known better. Sorry.
over react much? i did NOT put words in your mouth twice. the first reply i asked you questions, ya see a '?' at the end of a sentence usually means the person is asking you, not telling you. i asked if you were ok with those things and you said no, though it is odd that spending money on health care makes you so angry and not those other things
\
So the only way to be a good person with good values is to work my ass off, 3 jobs, 70 hours a week and pay for other people to have what I have?
i did not understand the point of that. who asked you to work 3 jobs to pay for people to have what you have? if that's not relating to health care, which this thread is about, what are you talking about?
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Yeah! I'm really looking forward to paying for every body elses medical insurance. I can't wait. It's just not enough that I pay for everyone elses kid to go to public school while I pay good money to send mine to Catholic schools. Just can't wait.
And oh yeah ... we're going to let our government run this? Are you joking me?
Can't wait.
there's another flaw... Schools shouldn't be attached to religion. a school is a school... let the children make their own minds up about religion instead of having it force fed to them like french geese.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
Yeah! I'm really looking forward to paying for every body elses medical insurance. I can't wait. It's just not enough that I pay for everyone elses kid to go to public school while I pay good money to send mine to Catholic schools. Just can't wait.
And oh yeah ... we're going to let our government run this? Are you joking me?
Can't wait.
there's another flaw... Schools shouldn't be attached to religion. a school is a school... let the children make their own minds up about religion instead of having it force fed to them like french geese.
Not teaching a child that there is a God is teaching them there is no God Why would that be concidered more right
If parents wish their children to be brought up as Christians, or, for that matter, atheists, what right do others have to stop them?
Parents and grandparents have passed on family traditions and beliefs as far back as we know...why are we expected to stop that now....It’s crazy to know there are people out there that feel parents have no right to teach their children their ancestry .........it is the children’s birthright to know
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
Yeah! I'm really looking forward to paying for every body elses medical insurance. I can't wait. It's just not enough that I pay for everyone elses kid to go to public school while I pay good money to send mine to Catholic schools. Just can't wait.
And oh yeah ... we're going to let our government run this? Are you joking me?
Can't wait.
there's another flaw... Schools shouldn't be attached to religion. a school is a school... let the children make their own minds up about religion instead of having it force fed to them like french geese.
Not teaching a child that there is a God is teaching them there is no God Why would that be concidered more right
If parents wish their children to be brought up as Christians, or, for that matter, atheists, what right do others have to stop them?
Parents and grandparents have passed on family traditions and beliefs as far back as we know...why are we expected to stop that now....It’s crazy to know there are people out there that feel parents have no right to teach their children their ancestry .........it is the children’s birthright to know
Ummm.... I don't think anyone said that parents couldn't teach their children what they want.....
When it comes to schools, I believe the state has a duty to provide 'general' schooling open to all and hopefully 'offending' none , ie non religious values and no political biais. Should parents wish their children be educated differently, ie as catholics, muslims, jews, or whatever and a private school is their only option, so be it. Pay for private education. Though, where I live, not only do we hve national health, we also have FREE catholic schools!
Not teaching a child that there is a God is teaching them there is no God Why would that be concidered more right
If parents wish their children to be brought up as Christians, or, for that matter, atheists, what right do others have to stop them?
Parents and grandparents have passed on family traditions and beliefs as far back as we know...why are we expected to stop that now....It’s crazy to know there are people out there that feel parents have no right to teach their children their ancestry .........it is the children’s birthright to know
ancestry and religion are two completely separate things :?
I said I don't think children should be taught in a Catholic school just because their parents are Catholics. That is what church is for... let the school educate them on facts. Religion shouldn't even enter a child's head when they are at school... their minds are so innocent and sponge-like... shame to ruin that with religion at such a young age.
oh scary... 40000 morbidly obese christians wearing fanny packs invading europe is probably the least scariest thing since I watched an edited version of The Care Bears movie in an extremely brightly lit cinema.
I hope you suffer the same fate as some of my clients who are being completely bankrupted by their medical expenses. Honestly, there is ZERO excuse for allowing this to happen to people in this country!! It could happen to any of us.
96% of Canadians prefer their health system to ours. They still bitch about their system, and that's good. They should make sure it works as well as possible. But our system is not working at all. Pisses me the fuck off!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh, that's still a problem down there? I haven't noticed.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
I'm sorry, but we need to cover everyone, not just work on schemes to lower payments. And by taking competition out of the equation, we can lower the cost of healthcare because competition requires advertising and such.
You should be sorry, because that's the kind of attitude that's gotten us in the mess we're in today.
The very reason that you think "we need to cover everyone" is the fact that costs have gotten out of control with no competition and nobody with insurance giving a darn what medical care costs.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
I hope you suffer the same fate as some of my clients who are being completely bankrupted by their medical expenses. Honestly, there is ZERO excuse for allowing this to happen to people in this country!! It could happen to any of us.
96% of Canadians prefer their health system to ours. They still bitch about their system, and that's good. They should make sure it works as well as possible. But our system is not working at all. Pisses me the fuck off!!!!!!!!!!!
Good morning....
Always a pleasure to see you.....
Hope to have a drink with you at one of the upcoming shows......
Pearl Jam Rocks!!!!!!
I am opposed to comprehensive universal health insurance.
And because of that, do you really want me to end up bankrupt??? hehehe
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
I hope you suffer the same fate as some of my clients who are being completely bankrupted by their medical expenses. Honestly, there is ZERO excuse for allowing this to happen to people in this country!! It could happen to any of us.
96% of Canadians prefer their health system to ours. They still bitch about their system, and that's good. They should make sure it works as well as possible. But our system is not working at all. Pisses me the fuck off!!!!!!!!!!!
Good morning....
Always a pleasure to see you.....
Hope to have a drink with you at one of the upcoming shows......
Pearl Jam Rocks!!!!!!
I am opposed to comprehensive universal health insurance.
And because of that, do you really want me to end up bankrupt??? hehehe
Haha Speedy, yeah same here, except for me wanting you to go bankrupt of course. My original post was a heat-of-the-moment type thing. It could happen to you though. I'm just really tired of hearing these stories of good, hard working people having such problems when they reach what should be their golden years. And I'm sure there's many more stories of good people of all ages who have been screwed. There's no excuse for it, and part of the problem is our government doesn't inspire us to trust it to work for us.
You didn't know I was such a commie, did you? My hippie costume at the halloween show in Philly was really just my normal clothing (except for the wig and the tacky beads, that's actually true). When we have drinks at the next show, I'll get you to come around to my way of thinking... mark my words!! Whether the government will ever get around to my way of thinking... that seems a lot more difficult. Unfortunately I can't think of any elected politician on the national scene right now who makes me think "yes, that's the man/woman I want working for me". If you watch C-Span long enough (who doesn't love watching C-Span, right? :? ) there are some no-name representative who actually do leave me feeling inspired... but the ones who make the rounds on all of the news shows... eff them all!! I can't even watch anymore.
I'm sorry, but we need to cover everyone, not just work on schemes to lower payments. And by taking competition out of the equation, we can lower the cost of healthcare because competition requires advertising and such.
You should be sorry, because that's the kind of attitude that's gotten us in the mess we're in today.
The very reason that you think "we need to cover everyone" is the fact that costs have gotten out of control with no competition and nobody with insurance giving a darn what medical care costs.
I think some here have made the case better than I... so I'm not sure what else to say. We can cover everyone and lower the costs of health care. Are Americans incapable of doing what other countries do? That's not the attitude I want to have. I think we are capable.
I just learned of a woman who's health insurance premiums were just raised by $97 per month because she's too thin. Apparently her BMI is "too low" by 1 point. Unfuckingbelievable.
I just learned of a woman who's health insurance premiums were just raised by $97 per month because she's too thin. Apparently her BMI is "too low" by 1 point. Unfuckingbelievable.
is that a pre-existing condition? seriously, these insurance companies are worse than pimps...
There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow man; true nobility is being superior to your former self.- Hemingway
Not teaching a child that there is a God is teaching them there is no God Why would that be concidered more right
If parents wish their children to be brought up as Christians, or, for that matter, atheists, what right do others have to stop them?
Parents and grandparents have passed on family traditions and beliefs as far back as we know...why are we expected to stop that now....It’s crazy to know there are people out there that feel parents have no right to teach their children their ancestry .........it is the children’s birthright to know
So the First Amendment is of no consequence to you?
Nobody's saying that parents don't have a right to teach their kids religion. Heck, as far as I'm concerned, parents can teach their kids about old men with white beards in the sky directing traffic on earth, or that they're descended from pirates to spread Pastafarianism, or they're the Chosen One sent to unify the Force. But do it at home, not in the public schools.
Our public schools are there to teach the general population, not to cater to the whims of a few. Hence the First Amendment.
"It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
I just learned of a woman who's health insurance premiums were just raised by $97 per month because she's too thin. Apparently her BMI is "too low" by 1 point. Unfuckingbelievable.
is that a pre-existing condition? seriously, these insurance companies are worse than pimps...
Why not? Apparently some of them classify domestic violenceto be a pre-existing condition too. Get unlucky enough to be beat up by your boyfriend, you're caught in a double bind because your insurance company won't cover your treatment afterwards. :roll:
"It's not hard to own something. Or everything. You just have to know that it's yours, and then be willing to let it go." - Neil Gaiman, "Stardust"
I'm sorry, but we need to cover everyone, not just work on schemes to lower payments. And by taking competition out of the equation, we can lower the cost of healthcare because competition requires advertising and such.
You should be sorry, because that's the kind of attitude that's gotten us in the mess we're in today.
The very reason that you think "we need to cover everyone" is the fact that costs have gotten out of control with no competition and nobody with insurance giving a darn what medical care costs.
I think some here have made the case better than I... so I'm not sure what else to say. We can cover everyone and lower the costs of health care. Are Americans incapable of doing what other countries do? That's not the attitude I want to have. I think we are capable.
You really think you can cover more people with health insurance and lower the costs of health care....without doing anything to lower its cost other than provide more people insurance coverage. I don't get it.
The only people we should try to get even with...
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Yeah! I'm really looking forward to paying for every body elses medical insurance. I can't wait. It's just not enough that I pay for everyone elses kid to go to public school while I pay good money to send mine to Catholic schools. Just can't wait.
And oh yeah ... we're going to let our government run this? Are you joking me?
Can't wait.
there's another flaw... Schools shouldn't be attached to religion. a school is a school... let the children make their own minds up about religion instead of having it force fed to them like french geese.
Not teaching a child that there is a God is teaching them there is no God Why would that be concidered more right
If parents wish their children to be brought up as Christians, or, for that matter, atheists, what right do others have to stop them?
Parents and grandparents have passed on family traditions and beliefs as far back as we know...why are we expected to stop that now....It’s crazy to know there are people out there that feel parents have no right to teach their children their ancestry .........it is the children’s birthright to know
actually, not teaching a kid about god is nowhere near teaching them that there isn't a god! all through my school career vietnam wasn't brought up until college, does that mean before that i was being taught the vietnam war never happened? we never got to the korean war, either, and yet i don't feel my school system is a korean war denier.
secondly, we are talking about teaching religion in school, just because a person doesn't want religion in school doesn't mean they are telling you that you can't teach your kids about god at home.
you say it's their birthright and generations have passed it down....you can say that of every religion so which god should schools be pushing? because i doubt they'd have the time to cover all the major religions and outside of a project to expose kids to different religions i'd say it just doesn't belong in a public school system. the fight for it is rooted in hypocrisy because they usually only want their religion pushed, no one else's
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
bigballsbilly wrote: while I pay good money to send mine to Catholic schools
Then
dunkman wrote:there's another flaw... Schools shouldn't be attached to religion. a school is a school... let the children make their own minds up about religion instead of having it force fed to them like french geese.
So Pepe Silvia it looked to me that dunkman was sayiying we should not teach our children there faith....hence my post
God and the vietnam war are apples and oranges....
I do believe that prayer in school is okay but I was referring in my post to the fact some think it’s wrong to teach our own children about God...
“We the people are the rightful masters of bothCongress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln
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I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
I just learned of a woman who's health insurance premiums were just raised by $97 per month because she's too thin. Apparently her BMI is "too low" by 1 point. Unfuckingbelievable.
BMI is useless. I can't believe it can be used to deny coverage.
Comments
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Sewers
That's not what I said, is it? Stop putting words in my mouth. That's the second time you did that.
I made my point. Our government can't govern, yet we're supposed to let them run a health care system? hardworking people bust their ass to provide and do the right thing for their family, and I don't think they should have to pay for those that DON'T. I'm not saying our medical system isn't messed up, just that THIS is not the way.
I am done on this subject. Let's just enjoy the PJ shall we? My bad for commenting on this. I should have known better. Sorry.
10-31-2009 Spectrum
5-18-2010 Newark
:roll:
Oh wow. Some of you people need to stop swallowing right wing talking points and look at the facts. To name a few:
The highest customer satisfaction for health care insurance goes to 1. The Veterans Administration and 2. Medicare. The private insurance companies are a distant second. Guess who runs those two? The government.
You know how many payments Social Security has missed through its entire 40+ years of existence? I'll tell you at the bottom of this post.
Lastly, if the conservatives would stop undermining our current government safety nets (they've consistently borrowed from the Social Security trust fund for other funding, instead of, oh, submitting a PAYGO system like the so called fiscal conservatives they claim to be, or stop giving tax breaks to millionaires and billionaires) we would have a well run system of publis programs - we'd easily be able to fund Medicare Part E (Everyone), fully paid, if we stopped this stupid adventurism in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we restore tax rates to when Nixon was still President, we could easily restore our public school systems, public hospitals, and all of our crumbling infrastructure. Even with a simple thing like allowing Medicare to negotiate drug prices would have been hugely helpful, but the Bush Administration and the Republican Congress wouldn't allow that with Medicare Part D, and it was stripped out of the current health care bills even as Senator Dorgan had huge bipartisan support for this amendment.
The issue of health care costs are a different matter, and can be addressed elsewhere. What you fail to see is that your proposal still doesn't solve a salient problem: in every country where there's a non-profit system of health insurance, they spend an average of 3-6% of their GDP on costs. In our country, we're already spending 20%.It also doesn't prevent private insurance companies from dropping patients when they're deemed too sick to be covered (recission) and prescreening them for "pre-existing conditions". In a public program like Medicare, or in Canada or the UK, nobody's excluded from coverage.
It also doesn't prevent private insurance companies from jacking up their rates to whatever level they want, which is what we recently saw with Anthem/Blue Cross in CA - they just proposed rate increases up to 39%. It also doesn't prevent them from paying their CEOs hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation, including luxury resorts, private jets, and gold plated utensils. Considering that not one single insurance company provides any sort of health care - all they do is take our money, take their cut, and pay our doctors - I have no reason to believe they should exist.
Furthermore, we already know this system of "savings accounts" doesn't work, as evidenced by the way our pension systems were systematically undermined by the Reagan administration by proposing things like IRAs - which are subject to the whims of the stock market and will expire after they're exhausted - to replace pension funds, which are lifetime and do not expire. When the financial meltdown occured, IRAs were hit very hard, while very few pension funds were. And you're still asking people to pay a lot of money up front, whereas with a single payer system like Medicare, or Canada or France, you wind up paying a much smaller amount up front and you don't have to worry about things like deductibles, copayments, and other ways you're milked by the industry.
In addition, we're already seeing private insurance plans with deductibles as high as $10k and $50k. I don't know what kind of income you have, but very few people I know in this economy can put away that kind of money in a regular savings account, much less an HSA.
Another bogus claim. All you have to do is look at the deregulation of the credit card industry - two states wound up with all the credit card companies - South Dakota and Delaware - because they had very lax rules and very little regulation of the industry. As a result, states with strong protections for their citizens could not enforce those rules when the credit card company was based in a state with no rules. As long as there isn't a bottom line, strongly regulated insurance system, we're going to see the same thing happen.
Youre missing the point of having insurance. When you have a lot of people under an insurance system, the system has the ability to cover catastrophic injuries or illnesses without depleting their funds, and they have more leverage to negotiate things like prices for medicines and medical equipment. Leaving people to buy stuff on their own will single handedly assure higher costs for the average citizen.
So when you have an entire government being able to negotiate better prices, it will reduce costs for everyone. It works not only in other countries, but with the VA, which routinely spends 50% less than we do for drugs and medicines.
(Answer to how many payments Social Security has missed in its entire history: zero.)
They run the Veterans Administration and Medicare just fine. if "socialized medicine" is good enough for our troops and our seniors, and they really, really like their systems, why shouldn't it be good enough for you and me?
As far as I'm concerned, it's the private insurance companies that don't deserve our money.
And finally, this incredibly selfish attitude I see among some of you here is appalling. The whole point of having insurance is to spread the risks around so that nobody has to suffer a bankruptcy because they can't afford the hospital bills if they've had a car crash, a heart attack, or long term dialysis.
Should I then be allowed to not pay for the roads you're driving on because I don't use them? Or unemployment coverage in your state because I don't live there? Or defund your police force because I will never use their services? If one of your kids develops leukemia, should you be expected to pay for the chemo, the radiation, the outpatient care, etc, all on your own?
Of course not. That's the point of having government - you ,know, "We The People".
Which highlights the problem I've pointed out before - if the conservatives would stop raiding Social Security for their own needs, we would still have it. And there's a really simple fix - remove the Social Security cap (currently at the first $100k). Do that and Social Security will stay robust for several generations at least, even maybe forever.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Then why does our socialist military say this then?
WASHINGTON, Jan. 20, 2006 – Veterans continued to rate the care they receive through the Department of Veterans Affairs health care system higher than other Americans rate private-sector health care for the sixth consecutive year, a new annual report on customer satisfaction reveals.
For VA Secretary R. James Nicholson, the news is affirmation of what he called "the greatest story never told," that the VA offers top-quality care for its patients.
VA medical services received high marks during the annual American Customer Satisfaction Index, which has ranked customer satisfaction with various federal programs and private-sector industries and major companies since 1994.
Veterans who recently used VA services and were interviewed for the 2005 ACSI survey gave the VA's inpatient care a rating of 83 on a 100-point scale -- compared to a 73 rating for the private-sector health care industry. Veterans gave the VA a rating of 80 for outpatient care, five percentage points higher than the 75 rating for private-sector outpatient care and 9 percent higher than the average satisfaction rating for all federal services.
"Although VA has received many wonderful endorsements recently, the support of our veterans -- the people who know us best -- is the highest praise," Nicholson said.
over react much? i did NOT put words in your mouth twice. the first reply i asked you questions, ya see a '?' at the end of a sentence usually means the person is asking you, not telling you. i asked if you were ok with those things and you said no, though it is odd that spending money on health care makes you so angry and not those other things
the other was a reply to you saying
i did not understand the point of that. who asked you to work 3 jobs to pay for people to have what you have? if that's not relating to health care, which this thread is about, what are you talking about?
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
there's another flaw... Schools shouldn't be attached to religion. a school is a school... let the children make their own minds up about religion instead of having it force fed to them like french geese.
If parents wish their children to be brought up as Christians, or, for that matter, atheists, what right do others have to stop them?
Parents and grandparents have passed on family traditions and beliefs as far back as we know...why are we expected to stop that now....It’s crazy to know there are people out there that feel parents have no right to teach their children their ancestry .........it is the children’s birthright to know
Ummm.... I don't think anyone said that parents couldn't teach their children what they want.....
When it comes to schools, I believe the state has a duty to provide 'general' schooling open to all and hopefully 'offending' none , ie non religious values and no political biais. Should parents wish their children be educated differently, ie as catholics, muslims, jews, or whatever and a private school is their only option, so be it. Pay for private education. Though, where I live, not only do we hve national health, we also have FREE catholic schools!
ancestry and religion are two completely separate things :?
I said I don't think children should be taught in a Catholic school just because their parents are Catholics. That is what church is for... let the school educate them on facts. Religion shouldn't even enter a child's head when they are at school... their minds are so innocent and sponge-like... shame to ruin that with religion at such a young age.
Oh, that's still a problem down there? I haven't noticed.
The poison from the poison stream caught up to you ELEVEN years ago and you floated out of here. Sept. 14, 08
You should be sorry, because that's the kind of attitude that's gotten us in the mess we're in today.
The very reason that you think "we need to cover everyone" is the fact that costs have gotten out of control with no competition and nobody with insurance giving a darn what medical care costs.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Not in my community. We're facing large fines to the federal government due to a poor sewer system.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
The reason so many can't afford healthcare is that the costs are too high - thus forcing most people to need insurance.
So apparently the solution is not to try to lower those costs, but rather to just use tax dollars to cover everyone at super high costs?
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
Always a pleasure to see you.....
Hope to have a drink with you at one of the upcoming shows......
Pearl Jam Rocks!!!!!!
I am opposed to comprehensive universal health insurance.
And because of that, do you really want me to end up bankrupt??? hehehe
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Haha Speedy, yeah same here, except for me wanting you to go bankrupt of course. My original post was a heat-of-the-moment type thing. It could happen to you though. I'm just really tired of hearing these stories of good, hard working people having such problems when they reach what should be their golden years. And I'm sure there's many more stories of good people of all ages who have been screwed. There's no excuse for it, and part of the problem is our government doesn't inspire us to trust it to work for us.
You didn't know I was such a commie, did you? My hippie costume at the halloween show in Philly was really just my normal clothing (except for the wig and the tacky beads, that's actually true). When we have drinks at the next show, I'll get you to come around to my way of thinking... mark my words!! Whether the government will ever get around to my way of thinking... that seems a lot more difficult. Unfortunately I can't think of any elected politician on the national scene right now who makes me think "yes, that's the man/woman I want working for me". If you watch C-Span long enough (who doesn't love watching C-Span, right? :? ) there are some no-name representative who actually do leave me feeling inspired... but the ones who make the rounds on all of the news shows... eff them all!! I can't even watch anymore.
I think some here have made the case better than I... so I'm not sure what else to say. We can cover everyone and lower the costs of health care. Are Americans incapable of doing what other countries do? That's not the attitude I want to have. I think we are capable.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
So the First Amendment is of no consequence to you?
Nobody's saying that parents don't have a right to teach their kids religion. Heck, as far as I'm concerned, parents can teach their kids about old men with white beards in the sky directing traffic on earth, or that they're descended from pirates to spread Pastafarianism, or they're the Chosen One sent to unify the Force. But do it at home, not in the public schools.
Our public schools are there to teach the general population, not to cater to the whims of a few. Hence the First Amendment.
Why not? Apparently some of them classify domestic violenceto be a pre-existing condition too. Get unlucky enough to be beat up by your boyfriend, you're caught in a double bind because your insurance company won't cover your treatment afterwards. :roll:
You really think you can cover more people with health insurance and lower the costs of health care....without doing anything to lower its cost other than provide more people insurance coverage. I don't get it.
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
actually, not teaching a kid about god is nowhere near teaching them that there isn't a god! all through my school career vietnam wasn't brought up until college, does that mean before that i was being taught the vietnam war never happened? we never got to the korean war, either, and yet i don't feel my school system is a korean war denier.
secondly, we are talking about teaching religion in school, just because a person doesn't want religion in school doesn't mean they are telling you that you can't teach your kids about god at home.
you say it's their birthright and generations have passed it down....you can say that of every religion so which god should schools be pushing? because i doubt they'd have the time to cover all the major religions and outside of a project to expose kids to different religions i'd say it just doesn't belong in a public school system. the fight for it is rooted in hypocrisy because they usually only want their religion pushed, no one else's
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
So Pepe Silvia it looked to me that dunkman was sayiying we should not teach our children there faith....hence my post
God and the vietnam war are apples and oranges....
I do believe that prayer in school is okay but I was referring in my post to the fact some think it’s wrong to teach our own children about God...
BMI is useless. I can't believe it can be used to deny coverage.