is most of the world antisemtic?

yosi

Thanks. I've thought this for a long time, that human rights has become a sort of euphemism for European guilt over their colonial history, mixed with an unspoken and unreformed sort of racism. To me it's all summed up in the comparison between Rwanda and Kosovo. Africans killing Africans and nothing gets done, cause hey, that's just par for the course, but when the killers are white Europe goes Rambo (or as Rambo as Europe knows how to go these days, which isn't much since they leave pretty much all their fighting to the US). This is exactly why I also get so frustrated by people pointing to UN resolutions condemning Israel, because those same resolutions reflect the same pattern. I think that something like 1/3 of all UN resolutions condemning human rights abuses have been levelled against Israel, which given the other dudes on the block, so to speak, is absolutely ludicrous. If the same actions were being taken against the Palestinians by Jordan it would be just as much a tragedy, but I guarantee that no one would care about it.

rebornFixer

yosi wrote:

Thanks. I've thought this for a long time, that human rights has become a sort of euphemism for European guilt over their colonial history, mixed with an unspoken and unreformed sort of racism. To me it's all summed up in the comparison between Rwanda and Kosovo. Africans killing Africans and nothing gets done, cause hey, that's just par for the course, but when the killers are white Europe goes Rambo (or as Rambo as Europe knows how to go these days, which isn't much since they leave pretty much all their fighting to the US). This is exactly why I also get so frustrated by people pointing to UN resolutions condemning Israel, because those same resolutions reflect the same pattern. I think that something like 1/3 of all UN resolutions condemning human rights abuses have been levelled against Israel, which given the other dudes on the block, so to speak, is absolutely ludicrous. If the same actions were being taken against the Palestinians by Jordan it would be just as much a tragedy, but I guarantee that no one would care about it.

Indeed, and the majority of the people leveling the condemnations in the UN are guilty of all kinds of human rights abuses and so-called war crimes themselves. The UN has become little more than an organized forum for harassing Israel, which to my way of thinking damages its legitimacy. I'd feel differently if these resolutions went to whomever deserves them, but that's not the reality. The reality is that "European" and "white" societies are expected to behave 100% of the time, and meanwhile everyone else can keep running their dirty little outfits called "governments" with nary a care.

gimmesometruth27

imalive wrote:

yeah, but no one holds Syria, Lybia, Iran, etc. as a paragon of anything. For me (honestly), a lot of what Israel does today just seems so at odds with its history of being a "victim."

exactly, i would think that isreal, of all countries, given its history of being a victim would try to be above victimizing others. its the same thing with the US, yes we were victims for one day, but we are making iraqis and afghans victime for over 2000 days now..

JOEJOEJOE

Pepe Silvia wrote:

yosi wrote:

I would never say that someone simply voicing criticism or asking for accountability is a racist. I would however say that anti-semites have taken to couching their bigotry in terms of "legitimate criticism" of Israel, because, you know, it isn't really acceptable anymore to just say that you dislike Jews. It's all a matter of tone. Seriously, what did you expect?! You rant and rave about how demonic Israel is and refuse to accept any of the nuances of the situation, and yet you're surprised when someone questions your motives?!

What if I was talking about affirmative action (a legitimate topic for debate that people can honestly disagree on) except that the entire tone of my argument was hysterically demonizing of black people. I'd probably be called a racist (and rightly so). Either you are an anti-semite, or you are so lacking in self-awareness, and so utterly tone deaf as to knowingly walk into a minefield and be surprised when your leg gets blown off!

can you show me where i've demonized jews?

You are very cowardly in the way you try to express your extreme views. You post other people's opinions with which you agree, and then you play innocent when people call you out.

Why not just state your opinions, and if someone questions you hatred, just own up to it.

Take ownership of your hatred.

yosi

I'm all for trying to hold countries to a high moral standard. I have a problem when there is a blatent double standard wherein one country is singled out for constant rebuke, while everyone else gets a pass. I will stop being indignant about how Israel is treated by the human rights community when Israel is no longer the target of a patently absurd double standard.

rebornFixer

rebornFixer wrote:

Indeed, and the majority of the people leveling the condemnations in the UN are guilty of all kinds of human rights abuses and so-called war crimes themselves. The UN has become little more than an organized forum for harassing Israel, which to my way of thinking damages its legitimacy. I'd feel differently if these resolutions went to whomever deserves them, but that's not the reality. The reality is that "European" and "white" societies are expected to behave 100% of the time, and meanwhile everyone else can keep running their dirty little outfits called "governments" with nary a care.

Just to clarify my own point ... I am NOT trying to pretend that European societies have it super-rough on the international stage. I don't think Western nations need anyone's pity or sympathy. But there IS a double standard at work in terms of Israel's treatment in the UN, big time.

fuck

yosi wrote:

Thanks. I've thought this for a long time, that human rights has become a sort of euphemism for European guilt over their colonial history, mixed with an unspoken and unreformed sort of racism. To me it's all summed up in the comparison between Rwanda and Kosovo. Africans killing Africans and nothing gets done, cause hey, that's just par for the course, but when the killers are white Europe goes Rambo (or as Rambo as Europe knows how to go these days, which isn't much since they leave pretty much all their fighting to the US). This is exactly why I also get so frustrated by people pointing to UN resolutions condemning Israel, because those same resolutions reflect the same pattern. I think that something like 1/3 of all UN resolutions condemning human rights abuses have been levelled against Israel, which given the other dudes on the block, so to speak, is absolutely ludicrous. If the same actions were being taken against the Palestinians by Jordan it would be just as much a tragedy, but I guarantee that no one would care about it.

what's the point of this post? you have such weak logic, this post is full of irregularities and stupid hypotheticals. First of all, it doesn't matter whether there is some conspiracy behind human rights activists who call out Israel because such a conspiracy does not make their offenses any less wrong. The fact of the matter is that DESPITE all this 'negative attention' that your beloved Israel has received, it still manages to commit massacres, to deny basic humanitarian needs to millions of people as the entire world watches. And you actually have the audacity to say "why is Israel getting all this attention when it goes on elsewhere". If you had any true moral value to your name you would be asking "why is Israel getting all this attention BUT NOTHING IS BEING DONE ABOUT IT" or "why won't Israel start abiding by international law since the entire world seems to want it to". And yet you try to bring up distractions like "stop focusing so much on Israel". That's like saying those people who pushed so hard and devoted their lives to ending apartheid in South Africa shouldn't have done so because racism, discrimination, segregation, etc, goes on elsewhere in the world. Secondly, to make the assumption that none of us would call out Jordan if they massacred Palestinians is just plain stupid because it's a baseless assumption and a weak argument. You don't know any of us.

If there were more people like you yosi the world would be a worse place than it is right now. Your double standards are hilarious. No one else here has shown any double standard by the way. You've tried countless times to try to justify Israel's crimes by either distracting from the main issue, that is Israel's continued violation of and disregard for international law, or trying to provide reasoning to make Israel's actions seem appropriate and rational. The fact is that Israel's violation of international law had been going on for decades before Hamas existed, and is the real issue here. You talk to us as if we're stupid and blind and can't see the other side; of course we can see the other side. of course we know why Israel reacts the way it does but it's wrong. the entire world sees this, and this isn't the same as is the world flat, that was a belief based on nothing, the fact of the matter is that there is ample evidence that documents Israel's continued violations. I suggest you read the Goldstone report but if you have I assume you will have one of two responses: 1. Goldstone, despite being a Zionist himself, is biased, anti-semitic, or any other garbage response you'll have or 2. it also condemns Hamas for violating the law, which is beside the fucking point because Hamas' violations have been proven to have far less ramifications than Israeli actions have caused. you try to argue using rhetoric way too much "hamas wants to destroy all of Israel" whereas Israeli actions, and not rhetoric, have proven to be far more destructive in this conflict.

fuck

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

yosi wrote:

I would never say that someone simply voicing criticism or asking for accountability is a racist. I would however say that anti-semites have taken to couching their bigotry in terms of "legitimate criticism" of Israel, because, you know, it isn't really acceptable anymore to just say that you dislike Jews. It's all a matter of tone. Seriously, what did you expect?! You rant and rave about how demonic Israel is and refuse to accept any of the nuances of the situation, and yet you're surprised when someone questions your motives?!

What if I was talking about affirmative action (a legitimate topic for debate that people can honestly disagree on) except that the entire tone of my argument was hysterically demonizing of black people. I'd probably be called a racist (and rightly so). Either you are an anti-semite, or you are so lacking in self-awareness, and so utterly tone deaf as to knowingly walk into a minefield and be surprised when your leg gets blown off!

can you show me where i've demonized jews?

You are very cowardly in the way you try to express your extreme views. You post other people's opinions with which you agree, and then you play innocent when people call you out.

Why not just state your opinions, and if someone questions you hatred, just own up to it.

Take ownership of your hatred.

There is somethign wrong with the world when all of a sudden preaching coexistence becomes considered as "extreme views." pepe has suggested the same solution everyone in the world, including Hamas, has agreed to: a two-state solution on the '67 borders. The only ones that have been stalling this process is Israel and the U.S. pepe wants Israel to stop not allowing food, building materials, medicine, etc, to the Palestinian people so they could live normal lives. He doesn't like the fact that the malnutrition rate in Gaza is over 60%, that the unemployment rate is what, maybe 50%? in Gaza, that there are innocent people dying from easily curable diseases due to the Israeli blockade. That in the West Bank, pregnant women die giving birth at Israeli checkpoints because the Israeli army does not let them go to a hospital. if these are extreme views, then I don't ever want to be considered "normal" by your standards Joe.

Pepe Silvia

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

yosi wrote:

I would never say that someone simply voicing criticism or asking for accountability is a racist. I would however say that anti-semites have taken to couching their bigotry in terms of "legitimate criticism" of Israel, because, you know, it isn't really acceptable anymore to just say that you dislike Jews. It's all a matter of tone. Seriously, what did you expect?! You rant and rave about how demonic Israel is and refuse to accept any of the nuances of the situation, and yet you're surprised when someone questions your motives?!

What if I was talking about affirmative action (a legitimate topic for debate that people can honestly disagree on) except that the entire tone of my argument was hysterically demonizing of black people. I'd probably be called a racist (and rightly so). Either you are an anti-semite, or you are so lacking in self-awareness, and so utterly tone deaf as to knowingly walk into a minefield and be surprised when your leg gets blown off!

can you show me where i've demonized jews?

You are very cowardly in the way you try to express your extreme views. You post other people's opinions with which you agree, and then you play innocent when people call you out.

Why not just state your opinions, and if someone questions you hatred, just own up to it.

Take ownership of your hatred.

because i don't hate jews, ever consider that? :roll:

Pepe Silvia

rebornFixer wrote:

rebornFixer wrote:

Indeed, and the majority of the people leveling the condemnations in the UN are guilty of all kinds of human rights abuses and so-called war crimes themselves. The UN has become little more than an organized forum for harassing Israel, which to my way of thinking damages its legitimacy. I'd feel differently if these resolutions went to whomever deserves them, but that's not the reality. The reality is that "European" and "white" societies are expected to behave 100% of the time, and meanwhile everyone else can keep running their dirty little outfits called "governments" with nary a care.

Just to clarify my own point ... I am NOT trying to pretend that European societies have it super-rough on the international stage. I don't think Western nations need anyone's pity or sympathy. But there IS a double standard at work in terms of Israel's treatment in the UN, big time.

i would disagree. can you name another country that has violated nearly as many resolutions and laws and had virtually nothing done to it? no sanctions, no arms embargoes, nothing. just like yosi argues every instance of abuse towards a palestinian by the idf or settlers is 'rare' and 'isolated' the fact is there is no punishment when these happen, no matter how infrequent you want to argue they are. and you're a smart guy, what do ya think happens if there is no accountability or punishment for a crime, when absolutely nothing is done? do you honestly think those people will just for some reason never do it again? don't you think others will say 'well, nothing happened to him...' you know how the gang mentality works, especially in combat

rebornFixer

Pepe Silvia wrote:

i would disagree. can you name another country that has violated nearly as many resolutions and laws and had virtually nothing done to it? no sanctions, no arms embargoes, nothing. just like yosi argues every instance of abuse towards a palestinian by the idf or settlers is 'rare' and 'isolated' the fact is there is no punishment when these happen, no matter how infrequent you want to argue they are. and you're a smart guy, what do ya think happens if there is no accountability or punishment for a crime, when absolutely nothing is done? do you honestly think those people will just for some reason never do it again? don't you think others will say 'well, nothing happened to him...' you know how the gang mentality works, especially in combat

I can agree with some of this, although I maintain that the bulk of the world's nations worry about "international law" and the like only when it suits them to do so. Why Israel's actions receive a full 1/3rd of the UN's attention is baffling, when you consider the long history of atrocities in Africa, Asia, South/Central America ... The UN DID take action in the former Yugoslavia (and again, people of European decent were involved), but they stood idly by in Rwanda and still do with regards to the Congo and Darfur and Zimbabwe. This pattern cannot be a coincidence, really.

Byrnzie

Pepe Silvia wrote:

and since you think there's a good possibility i am anti-semitic that would mean i hate all jews, even though i dated several jewish girls in my life including 1 for about for 9 months last year

I wouldn't use that line of defense Pepe. Hitler dated a Jewish girl in his youth.

catefrances

Pepe Silvia wrote:

or is there something to it?

this poll was taken in 2007 and only 4 countries had a majority holding a positive view of Israel and their actions (US, Nigeria, Kenya who were 38/37 positive/negative view and India 24/22)

im curious as to who was asked to take part in this poll and what countries didnt take part. and what exactly do they mean by 'the world'. do you know anyone who took part in this poll?? a friend who knows someone who did will suffice. asking if most of 'the world' is antisemitic without asking the entire world is a little bit bullshit imo. im fairly sure there are peoples in this world who dont even know israel exists.

alls i can say without a shadow of a doubt is that I am not antisemitic though i am absolutely opposed to the actions of the israeli govt just as i cant condone suicide bombings and rocket attacks by the palestinians.

Byrnzie

yosi wrote:

I love it! "The world says so, so it must be true." That is just about the most juvenile argument imaginable!

Of course, everybody's wrong, except Israel, AIPAC, and Alan Dershowitz

yosi

_outlaw wrote:

yosi wrote:

Thanks. I've thought this for a long time, that human rights has become a sort of euphemism for European guilt over their colonial history, mixed with an unspoken and unreformed sort of racism. To me it's all summed up in the comparison between Rwanda and Kosovo. Africans killing Africans and nothing gets done, cause hey, that's just par for the course, but when the killers are white Europe goes Rambo (or as Rambo as Europe knows how to go these days, which isn't much since they leave pretty much all their fighting to the US). This is exactly why I also get so frustrated by people pointing to UN resolutions condemning Israel, because those same resolutions reflect the same pattern. I think that something like 1/3 of all UN resolutions condemning human rights abuses have been levelled against Israel, which given the other dudes on the block, so to speak, is absolutely ludicrous. If the same actions were being taken against the Palestinians by Jordan it would be just as much a tragedy, but I guarantee that no one would care about it.

what's the point of this post? you have such weak logic, this post is full of irregularities and stupid hypotheticals. First of all, it doesn't matter whether there is some conspiracy behind human rights activists who call out Israel because such a conspiracy does not make their offenses any less wrong. The fact of the matter is that DESPITE all this 'negative attention' that your beloved Israel has received, it still manages to commit massacres, to deny basic humanitarian needs to millions of people as the entire world watches. And you actually have the audacity to say "why is Israel getting all this attention when it goes on elsewhere". If you had any true moral value to your name you would be asking "why is Israel getting all this attention BUT NOTHING IS BEING DONE ABOUT IT" or "why won't Israel start abiding by international law since the entire world seems to want it to". And yet you try to bring up distractions like "stop focusing so much on Israel". That's like saying those people who pushed so hard and devoted their lives to ending apartheid in South Africa shouldn't have done so because racism, discrimination, segregation, etc, goes on elsewhere in the world. Secondly, to make the assumption that none of us would call out Jordan if they massacred Palestinians is just plain stupid because it's a baseless assumption and a weak argument. You don't know any of us.

If there were more people like you yosi the world would be a worse place than it is right now. Your double standards are hilarious. No one else here has shown any double standard by the way. You've tried countless times to try to justify Israel's crimes by either distracting from the main issue, that is Israel's continued violation of and disregard for international law, or trying to provide reasoning to make Israel's actions seem appropriate and rational. The fact is that Israel's violation of international law had been going on for decades before Hamas existed, and is the real issue here. You talk to us as if we're stupid and blind and can't see the other side; of course we can see the other side. of course we know why Israel reacts the way it does but it's wrong. the entire world sees this, and this isn't the same as is the world flat, that was a belief based on nothing, the fact of the matter is that there is ample evidence that documents Israel's continued violations. I suggest you read the Goldstone report but if you have I assume you will have one of two responses: 1. Goldstone, despite being a Zionist himself, is biased, anti-semitic, or any other garbage response you'll have or 2. it also condemns Hamas for violating the law, which is beside the fucking point because Hamas' violations have been proven to have far less ramifications than Israeli actions have caused. you try to argue using rhetoric way too much "hamas wants to destroy all of Israel" whereas Israeli actions, and not rhetoric, have proven to be far more destructive in this conflict.

Oh, I'm so sorry that I make the world a worse place by disagreeing with you! My bad. Next time I'll remember to check my reason at the door and blindly agree with whatever you say. I forgot that dissenting opinions aren't welcome here.

puremagic

I don't think most people are antisemtic. I do believe that people in general are feed up with Israel's excuse of their right to exist because they see double standards being used in Gaza and against the Palestinians as a whole. They see Israel leaders always adding on another condition when it comes to peace talks or a Palestine state. Israel is a sovereign country so the excuses begins to appear pity and meaningless.

I do believe that politicians and world leaders are privately frustrated with the tactics utilized by Israel within the Middle East and its affect on the rest of the Arab world. The Dubai incident being just another one of those tactics. Israel appears to want to create an all out conflict within the region because Israel was made promises under the Bush Administration that have not come to fruition.


Dubai to use profiling to detect Israeli arrivals
Associated Press ^ | March 1, 2010 | BARBARA SURK

Posted on Monday, March 01, 2010 12:33:37 by Free ThinkerNY

DUBAI, United Arab Emirates (AP) - Following the assassination of a Hamas operative, Dubai police will use voice and face profiling to detect Israelis arriving on foreign passports, the police chief said Monday.

Israelis have always been forbidden from traveling to the United Arab Emirates on their passports, but dual-nationals could use their alternative passport to enter the country.
Lt. Gen. Dahi Khalfan Tamim said that now travelers suspected of being Israeli will not be allowed into the Gulf country even if they arrive on another passport. The Emirates will "deny entry to anyone suspected of having Israeli citizenship," Tamim said. Dual nationality is fairly common in Israel.

dunkman

catefrances wrote:

im fairly sure there are peoples in this world who dont even know israel exists.

very true Cate... i've found some of them being interviewed for a documentary:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q566ys0sqVQ

fuck

most of the world is not anti-semitic but those who actively expose Israel's crimes are.

yosi

Byrnzie

If you look at this map and can't see that Israel is merely defending itself then you are an Anti-Semite:


"1947 UN Partition" and on the right, "2010 Occupation"