is most of the world antisemtic?

Pepe Silvia

or is there something to it?

this poll was taken in 2007 and only 4 countries had a majority holding a positive view of Israel and their actions (US, Nigeria, Kenya who were 38/37 positive/negative view and India 24/22)

the poll shows Iran and Israel with the lowest ratings of any countries, Israel being the lowest of any country polled

a picture of the results is here
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/ ... graph1.jpg

article is here
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/ ... 5&nid=&id=

Israel and Iran Share Most Negative Ratings in Global Poll

March 22, 2007

A majority of people polled for the BBC World Service across 27 countries believe Israel and Iran have a mainly negative influence in the world with almost as many saying the same about North Korea and the United States.

Respondents were asked to rate 12 countries -- Britain, Canada, China, France, India, Iran, Israel, Japan, North Korea, Russia, the USA, Venezuela -- and the European Union, as having a positive or negative influence.

Canada, Japan, the European Union, and France were judged most positively. Britain, China, and India received more positive than negative evaluations while Russia was viewed slightly more negatively than positively. Opinions about Venezuela were evenly divided.

(Details of the evaluations of the United States were released separately by the BBC on 23 January and are available here).

The BBC has been tracking opinions about countries' influence in the world over three years (2005 - 2007). Nineteen of the 27 countries have been tracked over the entire period. During that time most ratings have remained relatively stable. There has been improvement in ratings of India, a slight decline in views about Britain and a significant fall in positive evaluations of the United States. Russia, China, and France also lost ground over the period, mainly between 2005 and 2006.

"It appears that people around the world tend to look negatively on countries whose profile is marked by the use or pursuit of military power," said Steven Kull, director of PIPA. This includes Israel and the US, who have recently used military force, and North Korea and Iran, who are perceived as trying to develop nuclear weapons."

"Countries that relate to the world primarily through soft power, like Japan, France, and the EU in general, tend to be viewed positively," he added.

GlobeScan president Doug Miller said: "India is the only country that has significantly improved its global stature in the past year, and is now even with China. Britain, while slipping a bit since 2005, appears to be avoiding the steep decline that its war partner, the US, is suffering. And it is fascinating that Chavez's Venezuela seems to be appealing to as many people as it is displeasing."

The poll was conducted for the BBC World Service by the international polling firm GlobeScan together with the Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) at the University of Maryland. GlobeScan coordinated the fieldwork between November 2006 and January 2007. Each country's rating is based on half-samples.

Israel

Israel is viewed quite negatively in the world, possibly because the poll was conducted less than six months following the Israel/Hezbollah war in Lebanon. On average, 56 percent have a mainly negative view of the country, and just 17 percent have a positive view, the least positive rating for any country evaluated. In 23 countries the most common view is negative, with only two leaning towards a positive view and two divided.

Unsurprisingly, the most negative views of Israel are found in the predominantly Muslim countries in the Middle East, with very large majorities in Lebanon (85%), Egypt (78%), Turkey (76%), and the UAE (73%) having negative views.

Large majorities also have negative views in Europe, including Germany (77%), Greece (68%) and France (66%). Indonesia (71%), Australia (68%) and South Korea (62%) are the most negative countries in the Asia/Pacific region. Brazilians (72%) are the most negative in Latin America.

The two countries that tend to view Israel positively do so in modest numbers. Forty-five percent of Nigerians and 41 percent of Americans have positive views of Israel's influence in the world, while nearly one-third in each country has negative views. The Kenyan and Indian populations have divided views of Israel.

Because this is the first time the survey has included Israel among the countries rated, there is no evidence that its current ratings are better or worse than before.
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Pepe Silvia

oh, i thought for certain mr in it to win it yosi or prfctlfts would have something to say :(

in 2007 only 17% held a positive view of Israel, i wonder what they thought in 2003??
http://www.defencetalk.com/israel-is-no ... poll-1223/

Europeans view Israel as the No 1 threat to world peace, ahead of Iran and North Korea, according to a European Commission survey yesterday.

EU residents found that 59 per cent deemed Israel "a threat to peace in the world", with the figures rising to 60 per cent in Britain, 65 in Germany, 69 in Austria and 74 in Holland.

maybe you should stop crying anti-semitism unless you are saying 3/4 of Holland, 65% of Germany, 69% of Austria, 60% of the UK....are anti-semtic?

perhaps you should stop playing the victim card and realize the majority of the world doesn't buy it

yosi

I love it! "The world says so, so it must be true." That is just about the most juvenile argument imaginable! If the world (through a poll of course) told you to jump off a bridge...Let me see, the world isn't flat, bathing doesn't cause illness, bleeding is not a good way to cure disease, there is a continent called America between Europe and Asia, Hitler really did mean what he said about killing Jews, Stalin really did intentionally starve Ukraine, Jesus was just some dude, Mohammad, likewise, was just some dude, who knows if Moses even existed let alone Abraham, there is no such thing as a dragon...Seriously, "the world" shouldn't be trusted for anything. Most people are dumb as dirt, they always have been, just now with the internet they flatter themselves that they actually know something. Please!

Pepe Silvia

yosi wrote:

I love it! "The world says so, so it must be true." That is just about the most juvenile argument imaginable! If the world (through a poll of course) told you to jump off a bridge...Let me see, the world isn't flat, bathing doesn't cause illness, bleeding is not a good way to cure disease, there is a continent called America between Europe and Asia, Hitler really did mean what he said about killing Jews, Stalin really did intentionally starve Ukraine, Jesus was just some dude, Mohammad, likewise, was just some dude, who knows if Moses even existed let alone Abraham, there is no such thing as a dragon...Seriously, "the world" shouldn't be trusted for anything. Most people are dumb as dirt, they always have been, just now with the internet they flatter themselves that they actually know something. Please!

or maybe people think Israel should stop it's inhumane treatment of the Palestinians where settlers and the IDF beat arabs with impunity while illegally expanding illegal settlements as they take 80% of the water giving the Palestinians only 20% and fire white phosphorus on top of a UN building with over 700 innocent people hiding from the bombing (and then basically doing nothing to punish this breach of law other than put a note in 2 officers files)

maybe you should consider a lot of people don't buy the argument every oppressive act is self defense and what the Palestinians forced them to do.

maybe being critical of Israel's actions has nothing to do with 'hating jews' but actually based on valid points?

or maybe some can continue to bury their head and play the poor victim while calling anyone critical of their actions or calling for actual accountability a racist

yosi

I would never say that someone simply voicing criticism or asking for accountability is a racist. I would however say that anti-semites have taken to couching their bigotry in terms of "legitimate criticism" of Israel, because, you know, it isn't really acceptable anymore to just say that you dislike Jews. It's all a matter of tone. Seriously, what did you expect?! You rant and rave about how demonic Israel is and refuse to accept any of the nuances of the situation, and yet you're surprised when someone questions your motives?!

What if I was talking about affirmative action (a legitimate topic for debate that people can honestly disagree on) except that the entire tone of my argument was hysterically demonizing of black people. I'd probably be called a racist (and rightly so). Either you are an anti-semite, or you are so lacking in self-awareness, and so utterly tone deaf as to knowingly walk into a minefield and be surprised when your leg gets blown off!

gimmesometruth27

i would not say that most of the world is anti-jew, but more anti isreal and anti isreal's government and its above the law behavior...

musicismylife78

i am all for exposing and rooting out anti semitism or hatred or prejudice wherever it lies. but i also, think the whole ADL thing is out of control. and its alot more muddied and not black and white like they seem to make it out to be. The black community and jewish community have often throughout history been at odds with one another. The ADL seems to suggest that anyone who espouses anti jewish, or percieved anti jewish statements, should be run out of town. people are complex. someone can have amazing ideas, and theories and can be very self empowering, but they can also say hurtful things. does that mean we throw out EVERYTHING they say?

additionally, the whole israel palestine issue is also muddied and complex.

the majority of the western world may be pro israel, but the rest of the world, and rightly so, has major problems with the us support of israel. How can one side be more valued over the other? When a israel child dies, thats a tragedy, and rightly so, but conversely, so is a palestinean child dying. the western world doesnt view this as accurate.

the fact of the matter is, that al qeada and the taliban have been vocal in their assertion that they hate the u.s. in large part because of their indifference to palestinean death, or any middle east death. the u.s. has the gal to go on national tv and when asked if sanctions that killed 500,000 iraqis, troubled them, they replied no (madeline albright said this on national tv). Anytime a palestinean dies, they die by a bullet, from a gun, financed by the united states. to question this, to suggest that the world shouldnt be like this, that the u.s. shouldnt choose sides, and shouldnt fund murder, is not antisemetic.

anytime anyone suggests palestineans have rights, or that the u.s. shouldnt fund the israelis, the term antisemite is used. this is outrageous

musicismylife78

the joke of the matter is that the u.s. doesnt give a damn about any type of racism or genocide or whatever. anyone who thinks those senators or presidents lie awake at night thinking about the abuse and harassment, and murdered endured by jews or any other group of folks, is sorely mistaken.

there are many ways to address and deal with the very real issue of antisemitism, or any type of racism, or bigotry. but funding the murder of palestinean children sure aint helping any of us.

Pepe Silvia

yosi wrote:

I would never say that someone simply voicing criticism or asking for accountability is a racist. I would however say that anti-semites have taken to couching their bigotry in terms of "legitimate criticism" of Israel, because, you know, it isn't really acceptable anymore to just say that you dislike Jews. It's all a matter of tone. Seriously, what did you expect?! You rant and rave about how demonic Israel is and refuse to accept any of the nuances of the situation, and yet you're surprised when someone questions your motives?!

What if I was talking about affirmative action (a legitimate topic for debate that people can honestly disagree on) except that the entire tone of my argument was hysterically demonizing of black people. I'd probably be called a racist (and rightly so). Either you are an anti-semite, or you are so lacking in self-awareness, and so utterly tone deaf as to knowingly walk into a minefield and be surprised when your leg gets blown off!

can you show me where i've demonized jews?

yosi

I said you've demonized Israel, which to my mind goes well beyond simply criticizing the country's policies. From reading how you discuss Israel, the tone and manner you employ when doing so, I have come to doubt your motives. To me you (and for that matter a few other people on this thread) don't sound like reasonable people offering reasonable criticism. You sound hysterical, and hateful, and at times irrational, paranoid, and conspiratorial. In other words, while you don't come out and demonize Jews, at times it seems that your criticism of Israel may be masking something worse. That is not to say that your arguments are inherently invalid, just that your motives, to my mind, are suspect.

unsung

Pepe Silvia wrote:

or is there something to it?

That is like saying is most of the World racist? Or do (fill in the blank) just not want to (fill in the blank).

Pepe Silvia

yosi wrote:

I said you've demonized Israel, which to my mind goes well beyond simply criticizing the country's policies. From reading how you discuss Israel, the tone and manner you employ when doing so, I have come to doubt your motives. To me you (and for that matter a few other people on this thread) don't sound like reasonable people offering reasonable criticism. You sound hysterical, and hateful, and at times irrational, paranoid, and conspiratorial. In other words, while you don't come out and demonize Jews, at times it seems that your criticism of Israel may be masking something worse. That is not to say that your arguments are inherently invalid, just that your motives, to my mind, are suspect.

but in your comparison you said:

What if I was talking about affirmative action (a legitimate topic for debate that people can honestly disagree on) except that the entire tone of my argument was hysterically demonizing of black people. I'd probably be called a racist (and rightly so). Either you are an anti-semite, or you are so lacking in self-awareness, and so utterly tone deaf as to knowingly walk into a minefield and be surprised when your leg gets blown off!

demonizing black people is not the same as being critical of Israel's actions. on the 1 hand you are talking about a government, not the entire populace, in your comparison 'black people' is NOT a government, it is an entire group of people, all encompassing. so, to make your comparison work i would have to be demonizing all jews

what have i said that was hysterical?

but let's stick with your comparison of black people. if you were posting about abuses towards black people and their human rights and i went to the extent to defend it, like you do with Israel, you would surely call me a racist. what would your reaction be if the us government commemorated the kkk in all their lynchings and killings of black people? i'm sure pretty anyone who doesn't dislike black people would think that is fucked up and yet you don't have a problem with Israel commemorating a terrorist organization that targeted civilians and committed massacres.

but to stay with your comparison a little more and to make it correct, i would be the one posting about abuses against black people and you would be accusing me, per se, of hating all white people.

and since you think there's a good possibility i am anti-semitic that would mean i hate all jews, even though i dated several jewish girls in my life including 1 for about for 9 months last year

yosi

You dated a Jewish girl...so some of your closest friends are Jewish?

You're nit-picking with the black thing. My point is that your criticism of Israel seems so hateful that I find it hard to believe that you judge Israel by the same standards as other countries. I haven't seen you spew anything hateful about Sudan, or China, or Russia, or Saudi Arabia, or Syria, or Lybia, or Iran, or Burma, all of which are arguably as guilty if not more so of human rights abuses as Israel. You single out one country whose defining characteristic relative to these other countries is that it is a Jewish state. So you'll forgive me if I think your motivations are a little sketchy.

yosi

You know, I think I've touched a nerve. Why so defensive? Do you recognize some truth in the charge that makes you uncomfortable? Cause you could just say that "yes, you're right, I've crossed a line in terms of tone, I apologize and, while I will continue to offer my criticisms of Israeli policy, I will endeavor to be more restrained in the future." Somehow, though, I don't think this is going to happen.

Wobbie

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

i would not say that most of the world is anti-jew, but more anti isreal and anti isreal's government and its above the law behavior...

my take, too.

yosi wrote:

I haven't seen you spew anything hateful about Sudan, or China, or Russia, or Saudi Arabia, or Syria, or Lybia, or Iran, or Burma, all of which are arguably as guilty if not more so of human rights abuses as Israel. .

yeah, but no one holds Syria, Lybia, Iran, etc. as a paragon of anything. For me (honestly), a lot of what Israel does today just seems so at odds with its history of being a "victim."

yosi

See I have a huge problem with that. So what are we saying? When certain countries violate human rights we ignore it because that's just how they are, but Israel we should hold to a higher standard. That is exactly why human rights strikes me as such a joke in practical terms. Because to be frank the world (or the western world) doesn't seem to give a shit when arabs kill arabs, or asians kill asians. It's only when "Europeans" are involved that anyone in the west gives a shit. So there's a huge uproar when a Palestinian is killed by Israel, which is seen as a European society, but when Hamas or Fatah kill Palestinians, or when Jordan or another Arab state kills them, no one says anything. Frankly I think its kind of racist. It's a "oh, thats just how Arabs are. They're primitive and violent" kind of attitute, and that is bullshit. It makes human rights completely meaningless.

Wobbie

yosi wrote:

See I have a huge problem with that. So what are we saying? When certain countries violate human rights we ignore it because that's just how they are, but Israel we should hold to a higher standard. That is exactly why human rights strikes me as such a joke in practical terms. Because to be frank the world (or the western world) doesn't seem to give a shit when arabs kill arabs, or asians kill asians. It's only when "Europeans" are involved that anyone in the west gives a shit. So there's a huge uproar when a Palestinian is killed by Israel, which is seen as a European society, but when Hamas or Fatah kill Palestinians, or when Jordan or another Arab state kills them, no one says anything. Frankly I think its kind of racist. It's a "oh, thats just how Arabs are. They're primitive and violent" kind of attitute, and that is bullshit. It makes human rights completely meaningless.

You're right, yosi...we do do that. I get your point and "we" should care about that other stuff but, for the most part, "we" don't. I guess people expect more of Israel....

I don't want to get too far into this and maybe misrepresent myself.......but so much of what goes on is just money driven political bullshit. There was a thing on 60 Minutes last night about the Armenian genocide carried out by Turkey in 1915. Because Turkey is a political ally of our government, we never call them out on it. Some frustration is because we are so beholden to Israel (and vice versa), our goverment looks the other way. We don't look the other way when Africans kill other Africans but, like you say, we (our goverment) doesn't really care :roll: . It's a fucked up world.

dimitrispearljam

imalive wrote:

I don't want to get too far into this and maybe misrepresent myself.......but so much of what goes on is just money driven political bullshit. There was a thing on 60 Minutes last night about the Armenian genocide carried out by Turkey in 1915. Because Turkey is a political ally of our government, we never call them out on it. Some frustration is because we are so beholden to Israel (and vice versa), our goverment looks the other way. We don't look the other way when Africans kill other Africans but, like you say, we (our goverment) doesn't really care :roll: . It's a fucked up world.

Thank God people know more Bad guys than Israel
Cyprus...the only FREE country in the world that have WALL in their capital city..
but guess what...?they product Oranges and Bananas..NOT OIL.....SO.......FUCK THEM

Pepe Silvia

yosi wrote:

You dated a Jewish girl...so some of your closest friends are Jewish?

You're nit-picking with the black thing. My point is that your criticism of Israel seems so hateful that I find it hard to believe that you judge Israel by the same standards as other countries. I haven't seen you spew anything hateful about Sudan, or China, or Russia, or Saudi Arabia, or Syria, or Lybia, or Iran, or Burma, all of which are arguably as guilty if not more so of human rights abuses as Israel. You single out one country whose defining characteristic relative to these other countries is that it is a Jewish state. So you'll forgive me if I think your motivations are a little sketchy.

no, it's not nitpicking, it is debasing your faulty comparison. sorry if you dislike that but i guess you're going to have to get over it. you're comparison was invalid, too bad.

i have 'spewed' stuff about other countries, however those countries aren't helping commit those violations with my tax money. also, this is current events. why don't YOU post articles about those countries? why doesn't anyone here?

and once again you are incorrect, the defining characteristic is not that it is a jewish state, stop being a baby and trying to denounce everyone as possibly being a racist. my country isn't giving any of those countries my tax money and weapons to help commit these acts. how is what i or anyone said hateful?

yosi

Your tone is hateful, and the obsessiveness of your focus is worrisome. I don't think I'm off base in saying that you don't discuss this issue in a manner that invites calm and reasoned debate. You portray Israel as essentially the second coming of Nazi Germany, and scream bloody murder if anyone dares to disagree with you.

rebornFixer

yosi wrote:

See I have a huge problem with that. So what are we saying? When certain countries violate human rights we ignore it because that's just how they are, but Israel we should hold to a higher standard. That is exactly why human rights strikes me as such a joke in practical terms. Because to be frank the world (or the western world) doesn't seem to give a shit when arabs kill arabs, or asians kill asians. It's only when "Europeans" are involved that anyone in the west gives a shit. So there's a huge uproar when a Palestinian is killed by Israel, which is seen as a European society, but when Hamas or Fatah kill Palestinians, or when Jordan or another Arab state kills them, no one says anything. Frankly I think its kind of racist. It's a "oh, thats just how Arabs are. They're primitive and violent" kind of attitute, and that is bullshit. It makes human rights completely meaningless.

This is an awesome post that captures some of my thoughts on WHY everyone targets Israel, while Darfur (for example) barely warrants a glance.

yosi

Thanks. I've thought this for a long time, that human rights has become a sort of euphemism for European guilt over their colonial history, mixed with an unspoken and unreformed sort of racism. To me it's all summed up in the comparison between Rwanda and Kosovo. Africans killing Africans and nothing gets done, cause hey, that's just par for the course, but when the killers are white Europe goes Rambo (or as Rambo as Europe knows how to go these days, which isn't much since they leave pretty much all their fighting to the US). This is exactly why I also get so frustrated by people pointing to UN resolutions condemning Israel, because those same resolutions reflect the same pattern. I think that something like 1/3 of all UN resolutions condemning human rights abuses have been levelled against Israel, which given the other dudes on the block, so to speak, is absolutely ludicrous. If the same actions were being taken against the Palestinians by Jordan it would be just as much a tragedy, but I guarantee that no one would care about it.

rebornFixer

yosi wrote:

Thanks. I've thought this for a long time, that human rights has become a sort of euphemism for European guilt over their colonial history, mixed with an unspoken and unreformed sort of racism. To me it's all summed up in the comparison between Rwanda and Kosovo. Africans killing Africans and nothing gets done, cause hey, that's just par for the course, but when the killers are white Europe goes Rambo (or as Rambo as Europe knows how to go these days, which isn't much since they leave pretty much all their fighting to the US). This is exactly why I also get so frustrated by people pointing to UN resolutions condemning Israel, because those same resolutions reflect the same pattern. I think that something like 1/3 of all UN resolutions condemning human rights abuses have been levelled against Israel, which given the other dudes on the block, so to speak, is absolutely ludicrous. If the same actions were being taken against the Palestinians by Jordan it would be just as much a tragedy, but I guarantee that no one would care about it.

Indeed, and the majority of the people leveling the condemnations in the UN are guilty of all kinds of human rights abuses and so-called war crimes themselves. The UN has become little more than an organized forum for harassing Israel, which to my way of thinking damages its legitimacy. I'd feel differently if these resolutions went to whomever deserves them, but that's not the reality. The reality is that "European" and "white" societies are expected to behave 100% of the time, and meanwhile everyone else can keep running their dirty little outfits called "governments" with nary a care.

gimmesometruth27

imalive wrote:

yeah, but no one holds Syria, Lybia, Iran, etc. as a paragon of anything. For me (honestly), a lot of what Israel does today just seems so at odds with its history of being a "victim."

exactly, i would think that isreal, of all countries, given its history of being a victim would try to be above victimizing others. its the same thing with the US, yes we were victims for one day, but we are making iraqis and afghans victime for over 2000 days now..

JOEJOEJOE

Pepe Silvia wrote:

yosi wrote:

I would never say that someone simply voicing criticism or asking for accountability is a racist. I would however say that anti-semites have taken to couching their bigotry in terms of "legitimate criticism" of Israel, because, you know, it isn't really acceptable anymore to just say that you dislike Jews. It's all a matter of tone. Seriously, what did you expect?! You rant and rave about how demonic Israel is and refuse to accept any of the nuances of the situation, and yet you're surprised when someone questions your motives?!

What if I was talking about affirmative action (a legitimate topic for debate that people can honestly disagree on) except that the entire tone of my argument was hysterically demonizing of black people. I'd probably be called a racist (and rightly so). Either you are an anti-semite, or you are so lacking in self-awareness, and so utterly tone deaf as to knowingly walk into a minefield and be surprised when your leg gets blown off!

can you show me where i've demonized jews?

You are very cowardly in the way you try to express your extreme views. You post other people's opinions with which you agree, and then you play innocent when people call you out.

Why not just state your opinions, and if someone questions you hatred, just own up to it.

Take ownership of your hatred.

yosi

I'm all for trying to hold countries to a high moral standard. I have a problem when there is a blatent double standard wherein one country is singled out for constant rebuke, while everyone else gets a pass. I will stop being indignant about how Israel is treated by the human rights community when Israel is no longer the target of a patently absurd double standard.

rebornFixer

rebornFixer wrote:

Indeed, and the majority of the people leveling the condemnations in the UN are guilty of all kinds of human rights abuses and so-called war crimes themselves. The UN has become little more than an organized forum for harassing Israel, which to my way of thinking damages its legitimacy. I'd feel differently if these resolutions went to whomever deserves them, but that's not the reality. The reality is that "European" and "white" societies are expected to behave 100% of the time, and meanwhile everyone else can keep running their dirty little outfits called "governments" with nary a care.

Just to clarify my own point ... I am NOT trying to pretend that European societies have it super-rough on the international stage. I don't think Western nations need anyone's pity or sympathy. But there IS a double standard at work in terms of Israel's treatment in the UN, big time.

fuck

yosi wrote:

Thanks. I've thought this for a long time, that human rights has become a sort of euphemism for European guilt over their colonial history, mixed with an unspoken and unreformed sort of racism. To me it's all summed up in the comparison between Rwanda and Kosovo. Africans killing Africans and nothing gets done, cause hey, that's just par for the course, but when the killers are white Europe goes Rambo (or as Rambo as Europe knows how to go these days, which isn't much since they leave pretty much all their fighting to the US). This is exactly why I also get so frustrated by people pointing to UN resolutions condemning Israel, because those same resolutions reflect the same pattern. I think that something like 1/3 of all UN resolutions condemning human rights abuses have been levelled against Israel, which given the other dudes on the block, so to speak, is absolutely ludicrous. If the same actions were being taken against the Palestinians by Jordan it would be just as much a tragedy, but I guarantee that no one would care about it.

what's the point of this post? you have such weak logic, this post is full of irregularities and stupid hypotheticals. First of all, it doesn't matter whether there is some conspiracy behind human rights activists who call out Israel because such a conspiracy does not make their offenses any less wrong. The fact of the matter is that DESPITE all this 'negative attention' that your beloved Israel has received, it still manages to commit massacres, to deny basic humanitarian needs to millions of people as the entire world watches. And you actually have the audacity to say "why is Israel getting all this attention when it goes on elsewhere". If you had any true moral value to your name you would be asking "why is Israel getting all this attention BUT NOTHING IS BEING DONE ABOUT IT" or "why won't Israel start abiding by international law since the entire world seems to want it to". And yet you try to bring up distractions like "stop focusing so much on Israel". That's like saying those people who pushed so hard and devoted their lives to ending apartheid in South Africa shouldn't have done so because racism, discrimination, segregation, etc, goes on elsewhere in the world. Secondly, to make the assumption that none of us would call out Jordan if they massacred Palestinians is just plain stupid because it's a baseless assumption and a weak argument. You don't know any of us.

If there were more people like you yosi the world would be a worse place than it is right now. Your double standards are hilarious. No one else here has shown any double standard by the way. You've tried countless times to try to justify Israel's crimes by either distracting from the main issue, that is Israel's continued violation of and disregard for international law, or trying to provide reasoning to make Israel's actions seem appropriate and rational. The fact is that Israel's violation of international law had been going on for decades before Hamas existed, and is the real issue here. You talk to us as if we're stupid and blind and can't see the other side; of course we can see the other side. of course we know why Israel reacts the way it does but it's wrong. the entire world sees this, and this isn't the same as is the world flat, that was a belief based on nothing, the fact of the matter is that there is ample evidence that documents Israel's continued violations. I suggest you read the Goldstone report but if you have I assume you will have one of two responses: 1. Goldstone, despite being a Zionist himself, is biased, anti-semitic, or any other garbage response you'll have or 2. it also condemns Hamas for violating the law, which is beside the fucking point because Hamas' violations have been proven to have far less ramifications than Israeli actions have caused. you try to argue using rhetoric way too much "hamas wants to destroy all of Israel" whereas Israeli actions, and not rhetoric, have proven to be far more destructive in this conflict.

fuck

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

yosi wrote:

I would never say that someone simply voicing criticism or asking for accountability is a racist. I would however say that anti-semites have taken to couching their bigotry in terms of "legitimate criticism" of Israel, because, you know, it isn't really acceptable anymore to just say that you dislike Jews. It's all a matter of tone. Seriously, what did you expect?! You rant and rave about how demonic Israel is and refuse to accept any of the nuances of the situation, and yet you're surprised when someone questions your motives?!

What if I was talking about affirmative action (a legitimate topic for debate that people can honestly disagree on) except that the entire tone of my argument was hysterically demonizing of black people. I'd probably be called a racist (and rightly so). Either you are an anti-semite, or you are so lacking in self-awareness, and so utterly tone deaf as to knowingly walk into a minefield and be surprised when your leg gets blown off!

can you show me where i've demonized jews?

You are very cowardly in the way you try to express your extreme views. You post other people's opinions with which you agree, and then you play innocent when people call you out.

Why not just state your opinions, and if someone questions you hatred, just own up to it.

Take ownership of your hatred.

There is somethign wrong with the world when all of a sudden preaching coexistence becomes considered as "extreme views." pepe has suggested the same solution everyone in the world, including Hamas, has agreed to: a two-state solution on the '67 borders. The only ones that have been stalling this process is Israel and the U.S. pepe wants Israel to stop not allowing food, building materials, medicine, etc, to the Palestinian people so they could live normal lives. He doesn't like the fact that the malnutrition rate in Gaza is over 60%, that the unemployment rate is what, maybe 50%? in Gaza, that there are innocent people dying from easily curable diseases due to the Israeli blockade. That in the West Bank, pregnant women die giving birth at Israeli checkpoints because the Israeli army does not let them go to a hospital. if these are extreme views, then I don't ever want to be considered "normal" by your standards Joe.

Pepe Silvia

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

yosi wrote:

I would never say that someone simply voicing criticism or asking for accountability is a racist. I would however say that anti-semites have taken to couching their bigotry in terms of "legitimate criticism" of Israel, because, you know, it isn't really acceptable anymore to just say that you dislike Jews. It's all a matter of tone. Seriously, what did you expect?! You rant and rave about how demonic Israel is and refuse to accept any of the nuances of the situation, and yet you're surprised when someone questions your motives?!

What if I was talking about affirmative action (a legitimate topic for debate that people can honestly disagree on) except that the entire tone of my argument was hysterically demonizing of black people. I'd probably be called a racist (and rightly so). Either you are an anti-semite, or you are so lacking in self-awareness, and so utterly tone deaf as to knowingly walk into a minefield and be surprised when your leg gets blown off!

can you show me where i've demonized jews?

You are very cowardly in the way you try to express your extreme views. You post other people's opinions with which you agree, and then you play innocent when people call you out.

Why not just state your opinions, and if someone questions you hatred, just own up to it.

Take ownership of your hatred.

because i don't hate jews, ever consider that? :roll:

Pepe Silvia

rebornFixer wrote:

rebornFixer wrote:

Indeed, and the majority of the people leveling the condemnations in the UN are guilty of all kinds of human rights abuses and so-called war crimes themselves. The UN has become little more than an organized forum for harassing Israel, which to my way of thinking damages its legitimacy. I'd feel differently if these resolutions went to whomever deserves them, but that's not the reality. The reality is that "European" and "white" societies are expected to behave 100% of the time, and meanwhile everyone else can keep running their dirty little outfits called "governments" with nary a care.

Just to clarify my own point ... I am NOT trying to pretend that European societies have it super-rough on the international stage. I don't think Western nations need anyone's pity or sympathy. But there IS a double standard at work in terms of Israel's treatment in the UN, big time.

i would disagree. can you name another country that has violated nearly as many resolutions and laws and had virtually nothing done to it? no sanctions, no arms embargoes, nothing. just like yosi argues every instance of abuse towards a palestinian by the idf or settlers is 'rare' and 'isolated' the fact is there is no punishment when these happen, no matter how infrequent you want to argue they are. and you're a smart guy, what do ya think happens if there is no accountability or punishment for a crime, when absolutely nothing is done? do you honestly think those people will just for some reason never do it again? don't you think others will say 'well, nothing happened to him...' you know how the gang mentality works, especially in combat