Well, on that note I would say that Domestic Violence isn't exclusive to alcoholics OR drug addicts. Sober or not. So am I to understand you've been just venting frustration over these "former friends"? And were they sober or still actively drinking? Suppose that doesn't matter in the big picture. The fact is that BOTH DV and alcoholism/drug addiction are deadly serious.
Agreed! And I never said that DV is exclusive to alcoholics. It just so happens to be in the case of these, 'former friends'.
DV is inexcusable, regardless of your state of mind!
Fair enough, I got too worked up over this as well. Have a good night.
I can comment on it because you pretty much referred to all alcoholics as wife beaters when that is far from the case. Like I said I have been through this with a number of people who have ruined their lives because of alcohol but never laid a hand on anyone in their family, so it is pretty fucking offensive for you to refer to alcoholics as wife beaters and saying AA is worthless.
Wow - this conversation sure took a strange turn. :?
For the record, my friend's husband has never laid a hand on her and he never would. He's a wonderful man - which is why she's stayed with him these many years - but he has a problem. And when he's "off the wagon" he's completely irresponsible & impossible to rationally communicate with, which is why their marriage suffers & why she won't have kids with him. He thinks he can beat this problem all on his own, but he can't. She would give anything for him to join AA. I don't know why it's validity would even be in question.
Wow - this conversation sure took a strange turn. :?
For the record, my friend's husband has never laid a hand on her and he never would. He's a wonderful man - which is why she's stayed with him these many years - but he has a problem. And when he's "off the wagon" he's completely irresponsible & impossible to rationally communicate with, which is why their marriage suffers & why she won't have kids with him. He thinks he can beat this problem all on his own, but he can't. She would give anything for him to join AA. I don't know why it's validity would even be in question.
scb , this suggestion may have got lost in the turn the thread took. So, I'll suggest it again. She might find some relief for herself in alanon. If nothing else she can find some people who are in a similar situation and who understand what she goes through. It's REAL difficult to live with us , much less love us. Good luck to her.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
one of my best friends is in AA & has recently started drinking again "in moderation"...not a good idea. he was on shaky ground to begin with (with his health, wife, friends & family), and i fear that this may cause him to lose some--or all--of his life as knows it. from what i know, it's a very slippery slope & i hope that he re-enters the program. his wife is going to Al-Anon & I think that's helped her a bit. so, i'd agree with those statements about not drinking in moderation & going to Al-Anon.
and to crazypjfan....i'm sorry that you've had to witness some of the effects of alcoholism, but that doesn't give you any reason to be cold & callous or to make broad generalizations. it seems like you need to re-evaluate your morals and use the standard advice of "think before you speak."
First off alcoholism is a disease just like any other disease. Domestic violence is inexcusable and alcoholism is no excuse for it. To bunch alcoholics with domestic vioence is stupid. An alcoholic cannot drink in moderation...Maybe they think they can control it for a period of time but eventually it will get out of hand. There is also no excuse for stupidity. Don't talk about something unless you know the facts. One must hit there bottom before they can really give it all up.
Alcohol availability is closely related to violent assaults. Communities and neighborhoods that have more bars and liquor stores per capita experience more assaults. 1
• Alcohol use is frequently associated with violence between intimate partners. Two-thirds of victims of intimate partner violence reported that alcohol was involved in the incident. 2
• In one study of interpersonal violence, men had been drinking in an estimated 45 percent of cases and women had been drinking in 20 percent of cases. 3
• Women whose partners abused alcohol were 3.6 times more likely than other women to be assaulted by their partners. 4
• In 1997, 40 percent of convicted rape and sexual assault offenders said that they were drinking at the time of their crime. 5
• In 2002, more than 70,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 were victims of alcohol-related sexual assault in the U.S. 6
• In those violent incidents recorded by the police in which alcohol was a factor, about nine percent of the offenders and nearly 14 percent of the victims were under age 21. 7
• Twenty-eight percent of suicides by children ages nine to 15 were attributable to alcohol. 8
• An estimated 480,000 children are mistreated each year by a caretaker with alcohol problems. 9
So from your first post in this thread to this , you say fuck the one program that has PROVEN (if only anecdotal proof) to help people who CANNOT control their drinking to not drink. And cannot or will not offer up another solution that would help these people not drink.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I've always thought there are 2 kinds of alcoholics.
A problem drinker and a drinker who has problems.
Both are dependent on alcohol but with a problem drinker their life gets effected by drinking. Relationships, their job, their health. It is causing a major problem in their life. They are often moody or unhappy when drinking even violent.
Now a drinker who has problems unrelated to alcohol they drink to ease these problems. To relieve stress and to relax, to escape, to be more comfortable in a social setting or for pure enjoyment.
Both are alcoholics because of dependency issues.
The problem drinker can not drink, must quit and never drink again because its a problem
The drinker with problems can drink moderately and maybe should if it is actually helping their sense of well-being and not a health issue.
I've always thought there are 2 kinds of alcoholics.
A problem drinker and a drinker who has problems.
Both are dependent on alcohol but with a problem drinker their life gets effected by drinking. Relationships, their job, their health. It is causing a major problem in their life. They are often moody or unhappy when drinking even violent.
Now a drinker who has problems unrelated to alcohol they drink to ease these problems. To relieve stress and to relax, to escape, to be more comfortable in a social setting or for pure enjoyment.
Both are alcoholics because of dependency issues.
The problem drinker can not drink, must quit and never drink again because its a problem
The drinker with problems can drink moderately and maybe should if it is actually helping their sense of well-being and not a health issue.
the drinker who has problems might not be an actual alcoholic.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Wow....Just wow. I was married to an Alcoholic for over 12 years. Not once did he lay a hand on me. NEVER.
He has come close to drinking himself to death at least 25 times but never once hit me. He's still trying to stay sober, lives in a sober living home in LA, that's what he has to do. I got the tools I needed thru Alanon.
I would never call AA a bullshit program. This crazypjfan is just that, crazy.
The best use of Life is Love.
The best expression of Love is Time.
The best time to Love is Now.
Yeah, as some of the others on here have stated, no, a recovering alcoholic can't just all of a sudden start casually drinking like a non-alcoholic. They may be able to stay in control for a little while, but at some point, genetics, biology and all that stuff catch up.
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
My VERY lay opinion is based on research for my psych thesis which was about the "alcohol gene". I have always been an nurture over nature proponent. I believe that one's environment plays a far bigger role in addiction than one's genetics. Alcoholism is a learned behavior, and the "disease" is literally in the mind. Either way, there is no middle ground. An alcoholic can never just have one.
My VERY lay opinion is based on research for my psych thesis which was about the "alcohol gene". I have always been an nurture over nature proponent. I believe that one's environment plays a far bigger role in addiction than one's genetics. Alcoholism is a learned behavior, and the "disease" is literally in the mind. Either way, there is no middle ground. An alcoholic can never just have one.
while true , there is also a physical component. I don't process alcohol the same as a nonalcoholic does. Seems I lack a key enzyme used in the breaking down of alcohol in the body. Now whether I was born without this or damaged myself in the process of drinking to excess , who can say. But from the VERY first time I drank , it was to excess. Compelled to do it and seek out more. That lsted until I asked for help. And I believe the same would be true for me if I was to pick up a drink today.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Wow - this conversation sure took a strange turn. :?
For the record, my friend's husband has never laid a hand on her and he never would. He's a wonderful man - which is why she's stayed with him these many years - but he has a problem. And when he's "off the wagon" he's completely irresponsible & impossible to rationally communicate with, which is why their marriage suffers & why she won't have kids with him. He thinks he can beat this problem all on his own, but he can't. She would give anything for him to join AA. I don't know why it's validity would even be in question.
scb , this suggestion may have got lost in the turn the thread took. So, I'll suggest it again. She might find some relief for herself in alanon. If nothing else she can find some people who are in a similar situation and who understand what she goes through. It's REAL difficult to live with us , much less love us. Good luck to her.
Thanks so much, mickeyrat - I knew I could count on you!
I have suggested alanon to her before, and counseling as well, and she's always said she doesn't have time. She feels so overwhelmed trying to make a living and take care of all the responsibilities at the same time. But one time she actually found an alanon group that has online meetings. (It's amazing to me how much the internet has changed life.) She "attended" one meeting and found it helpful, but then he quit drinking. (I think her seeking out that kind of support, as well as the books she ordered about it that came in the mail for him to see, kind of drove the message home for him that this is a serious problem for her, whether or not he thinks it's a serious problem for him.) When he quit drinking, she didn't feel like she needed alanon anymore. I'll encourage her to go back though.
It's hard for the other person, because they can get so stuck in their cycles as well with regard to how they view and handle things, and how they can feel helpless & hopeless, ya know?
I've always thought there are 2 kinds of alcoholics.
A problem drinker and a drinker who has problems.
Both are dependent on alcohol but with a problem drinker their life gets effected by drinking. Relationships, their job, their health. It is causing a major problem in their life. They are often moody or unhappy when drinking even violent.
Now a drinker who has problems unrelated to alcohol they drink to ease these problems. To relieve stress and to relax, to escape, to be more comfortable in a social setting or for pure enjoyment.
Both are alcoholics because of dependency issues.
The problem drinker can not drink, must quit and never drink again because its a problem
The drinker with problems can drink moderately and maybe should if it is actually helping their sense of well-being and not a health issue.
the drinker who has problems might not be an actual alcoholic.
I had this exact conversation with a friend the other day. He said he really don't think that I'm an alcoholic.
He almost said word for word what pandora said about me being a drinker with problems.
He believes that I would have had a much harder time giving up the drinking , especially with all that has been going on in my life at the moment than I have. I really have had no problems at all. There has been 3 times when I wanted to drink in the past 46 days. One was after a funeral.
it came up because someone told me they were proud of me for not drinking. for some reason that makes me feel weak. I don't know why.
I would much rather be in control and be able to drink on a social level, not so much for the alcohol itself, but at least I would feel like I have control over it.
By just not drinking, it feels like I am saying that it's stronger than I am. Which it very well could be.
I don't know this though, because I have never stopped drinking this long to see.
It's funny though, many of the people who have been telling me for years I need to chill on the drinking, are now telling me they don't think I have to give it up completley because I'm not an alcoholic.
I don't know.
to stay on the actual topic, I do think AA works for those who make it work for them.
I myself am not the type of person to go to AA. I just said I've had enough, for at least awhile, and stopped drinking.
the thought of sitting in a group of people talking about the problems of alcohol depresses the shit out of me.
but, I do think that AA works as a whole. Just not my thing.
Post edited by the wolf on
Peace, Love.
"To question your government is not unpatriotic --
to not question your government is unpatriotic."
-- Sen. Chuck Hagel
Alcohol availability is closely related to violent assaults. Communities and neighborhoods that have more bars and liquor stores per capita experience more assaults. 1
• Alcohol use is frequently associated with violence between intimate partners. Two-thirds of victims of intimate partner violence reported that alcohol was involved in the incident. 2
• In one study of interpersonal violence, men had been drinking in an estimated 45 percent of cases and women had been drinking in 20 percent of cases. 3
• Women whose partners abused alcohol were 3.6 times more likely than other women to be assaulted by their partners. 4
• In 1997, 40 percent of convicted rape and sexual assault offenders said that they were drinking at the time of their crime. 5
• In 2002, more than 70,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 were victims of alcohol-related sexual assault in the U.S. 6
• In those violent incidents recorded by the police in which alcohol was a factor, about nine percent of the offenders and nearly 14 percent of the victims were under age 21. 7
• Twenty-eight percent of suicides by children ages nine to 15 were attributable to alcohol. 8
• An estimated 480,000 children are mistreated each year by a caretaker with alcohol problems. 9
I'm against domestic violence as much as anyone else (probably moreso) but this is irrelevant to this thread.
Also, if you are trying to suggest that most alcoholics commit domestic violence, this data doesn't show that (and it's probably not true). You seem to be confusing "most/many incidences of domestic violence were preceded by alcohol consumption" with "most/many incidences of alcoholism/alcohol consumption lead to domestic violence," which is a basic fallacy in logic.
I've always thought there are 2 kinds of alcoholics.
A problem drinker and a drinker who has problems.
Both are dependent on alcohol but with a problem drinker their life gets effected by drinking. Relationships, their job, their health. It is causing a major problem in their life. They are often moody or unhappy when drinking even violent.
Now a drinker who has problems unrelated to alcohol they drink to ease these problems. To relieve stress and to relax, to escape, to be more comfortable in a social setting or for pure enjoyment.
Both are alcoholics because of dependency issues.
The problem drinker can not drink, must quit and never drink again because its a problem
The drinker with problems can drink moderately and maybe should if it is actually helping their sense of well-being and not a health issue.
Good point. But I think the two aren't mutually exclusive, or at least they're part of a vicious cycle. It's almost a chicken & egg kind of question, ya know? For my friend's husband, I'd say he has problems which lead him to drink, but also his drinking exacurbates his problems.
Alcohol availability is closely related to violent assaults. Communities and neighborhoods that have more bars and liquor stores per capita experience more assaults. 1
• Alcohol use is frequently associated with violence between intimate partners. Two-thirds of victims of intimate partner violence reported that alcohol was involved in the incident. 2
• In one study of interpersonal violence, men had been drinking in an estimated 45 percent of cases and women had been drinking in 20 percent of cases. 3
• Women whose partners abused alcohol were 3.6 times more likely than other women to be assaulted by their partners. 4
• In 1997, 40 percent of convicted rape and sexual assault offenders said that they were drinking at the time of their crime. 5
• In 2002, more than 70,000 students between the ages of 18 and 24 were victims of alcohol-related sexual assault in the U.S. 6
• In those violent incidents recorded by the police in which alcohol was a factor, about nine percent of the offenders and nearly 14 percent of the victims were under age 21. 7
• Twenty-eight percent of suicides by children ages nine to 15 were attributable to alcohol. 8
• An estimated 480,000 children are mistreated each year by a caretaker with alcohol problems. 9
I'm against domestic violence as much as anyone else (probably moreso) but this is irrelevant to this thread.
Also, if you are trying to suggest that most alcoholics commit domestic violence, this data doesn't show that (and it's probably not true). You seem to be confusing "most/many incidences of domestic violence were preceded by alcohol consumption" with "most/many incidences of alcoholism/alcohol consumption lead to domestic violence," which is a basic fallacy in logic.
Alcohol may be a factor in a high percentage of domestic violence and sexual assault, but that doesn't mean the reverse is true.
One of the sayings in AA is " Carry the message NOT the drunk" And in a sense she is carrying the drunk. For those in alanon , the see how alcoholism affects THEIR life.They are given specific "tools" to deal with that. Continueing to "carry" the drunk is actually doing more harm than good in the long run. In many ways the loved ones of an alcoholic have it far worse than the alcoholic themselves. I know for me , the burden my drinking put on me was bad enough. I can't really imagine the burden the loved one has. Had a brief taste of it when my exwife(met and married while in AA) chose to end the marriage and go back to drinking.
On the one hand that was a gift to me from her , seeing the other side of our Step 1. Yes , very much so a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness. Through nthat I was able to see some areas of improvement for myself. Still painful to go through.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
someone told me they were proud of me for not drinking. for some reason that makes me feel weak. I don't know why.
I would much rather be in control and be able to drink on a social level, not so much for the alcohol itself, but at least I would feel like I have control over it.
By just not drinking, it feels like I am saying that it's stronger than I am.
I think my friend's husband feels this way, and I think my ex-boyfriend felt this way as well. They don't want to feel like they have something wrong with them so that they can't have a drink with their friends. It's really important to them to be able to think they can control it and drink normally and have a good time like everyone else. And I feel badly for treating them different, like there's something wrong with them that they can't just make the decision to drink socially like I do.
But, for example, my friend once told her husband (who very much wants kids) that if he would stop drinking for a year she would consider it. So he stopped for the longest amount of time ever - 9 months. It was all looking so good, 'til he went on the annual camping trip with his buddies and thought he could just have a beer around the campfire with them like no big deal. And my friend didn't even hold it against him. But after his buddies left town, he went back to his old ways of drinking from the time he got up in the morning (3 AM) until he passed out at night with the bird left outside to freeze and dinner left on the stove to catch on fire.
So she knows how this "drinking in moderation" will turn out. But she feels bad for treating him like a child and getting upset by "just one harmless drink". Not that she even has the energy to fight with him anymore. But one drink ending a streak of sobriety and all her hopes for her/their future & family go right down the drain. And then he gets all hurt that she doesn't have faith in him.
One of the sayings in AA is " Carry the message NOT the drunk" And in a sense she is carrying the drunk. For those in alanon , the see how alcoholism affects THEIR life.They are given specific "tools" to deal with that. Continueing to "carry" the drunk is actually doing more harm than good in the long run. In many ways the loved ones of an alcoholic have it far worse than the alcoholic themselves. I know for me , the burden my drinking put on me was bad enough. I can't really imagine the burden the loved one has. Had a brief taste of it when my exwife(met and married while in AA) chose to end the marriage and go back to drinking.
On the one hand that was a gift to me from her , seeing the other side of our Step 1. Yes , very much so a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness. Through nthat I was able to see some areas of improvement for myself. Still painful to go through.
I'm not sure I fully understand what "Carry the message, not the drunk" means.
I understand about enabling him, and I think she does that. I try to encourage her not to, but she feels stuck in some ways. For instance, they work together and he makes more money than she does. She is constantly covering for him at work for fear that he'll lose his job, which would put both of them in a bind financially. Plus, I know from my own experience that it's hard to not do things to help the people you love - like make their doctors' appointments for them and try to force them to go, etc. It's hard.
One of the sayings in AA is " Carry the message NOT the drunk" And in a sense she is carrying the drunk. For those in alanon , the see how alcoholism affects THEIR life.They are given specific "tools" to deal with that. Continueing to "carry" the drunk is actually doing more harm than good in the long run. In many ways the loved ones of an alcoholic have it far worse than the alcoholic themselves. I know for me , the burden my drinking put on me was bad enough. I can't really imagine the burden the loved one has. Had a brief taste of it when my exwife(met and married while in AA) chose to end the marriage and go back to drinking.
On the one hand that was a gift to me from her , seeing the other side of our Step 1. Yes , very much so a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness. Through nthat I was able to see some areas of improvement for myself. Still painful to go through.
I'm not sure I fully understand what "Carry the message, not the drunk" means.
I understand about enabling him, and I think she does that. I try to encourage her not to, but she feels stuck in some ways. For instance, they work together and he makes more money than she does. She is constantly covering for him at work for fear that he'll lose his job, which would put both of them in a bind financially. Plus, I know from my own experience that it's hard to not do things to help the people you love - like make their doctors' appointments for them and try to force them to go, etc. It's hard.
I know it would affect her , but THAT is carrying the drunk.
As for the phrase , it refers to encourageing the working of the 12 steps.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I've always thought there are 2 kinds of alcoholics.
A problem drinker and a drinker who has problems.
Both are dependent on alcohol but with a problem drinker their life gets effected by drinking. Relationships, their job, their health. It is causing a major problem in their life. They are often moody or unhappy when drinking even violent.
Now a drinker who has problems unrelated to alcohol they drink to ease these problems. To relieve stress and to relax, to escape, to be more comfortable in a social setting or for pure enjoyment.
Both are alcoholics because of dependency issues.
The problem drinker can not drink, must quit and never drink again because its a problem
The drinker with problems can drink moderately and maybe should if it is actually helping their sense of well-being and not a health issue.
Good point. But I think the two aren't mutually exclusive, or at least they're part of a vicious cycle. It's almost a chicken & egg kind of question, ya know? For my friend's husband, I'd say he has problems which lead him to drink, but also his drinking exacurbates his problems.
From what you said it sounds to me that your friend's husband is a problem drinker. He might have problems that lead him to drink but drinking is a big problem in itself now. He's fucking(pardon my french but needed here) his life up which is the key.
AA of course is a great institution. No arguing that. AA here in the south, which maybe the same all over, is heavily faith based- Christian. A strong belief in God is needed to overcome alcoholism is one of the 12 steps at least from people I've known who have joined that is what I'm told.
AA here in the south, which maybe the same all over, is heavily faith based- Christian. A strong belief in God is needed to overcome alcoholism is one of the 12 steps at least from people I've known who have joined that is what I'm told.
AA says to turn yourself over to a higher power (or words to that effect)...it doesn't have to be any specific religion
There is a fundamental believe in AA that you have to turn your life over to a higher power....it does not say God...In some areas people may over emphasize the god part but trully it is just a higher power not god.
Comments
Fair enough, I got too worked up over this as well. Have a good night.
Really?
For the record, my friend's husband has never laid a hand on her and he never would. He's a wonderful man - which is why she's stayed with him these many years - but he has a problem. And when he's "off the wagon" he's completely irresponsible & impossible to rationally communicate with, which is why their marriage suffers & why she won't have kids with him. He thinks he can beat this problem all on his own, but he can't. She would give anything for him to join AA. I don't know why it's validity would even be in question.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
and to crazypjfan....i'm sorry that you've had to witness some of the effects of alcoholism, but that doesn't give you any reason to be cold & callous or to make broad generalizations. it seems like you need to re-evaluate your morals and use the standard advice of "think before you speak."
www.cluthelee.com
www.cluthe.com
What IS your deal, exactly?
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
www.cluthelee.com
www.cluthe.com
A problem drinker and a drinker who has problems.
Both are dependent on alcohol but with a problem drinker their life gets effected by drinking. Relationships, their job, their health. It is causing a major problem in their life. They are often moody or unhappy when drinking even violent.
Now a drinker who has problems unrelated to alcohol they drink to ease these problems. To relieve stress and to relax, to escape, to be more comfortable in a social setting or for pure enjoyment.
Both are alcoholics because of dependency issues.
The problem drinker can not drink, must quit and never drink again because its a problem
The drinker with problems can drink moderately and maybe should if it is actually helping their sense of well-being and not a health issue.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
He has come close to drinking himself to death at least 25 times but never once hit me. He's still trying to stay sober, lives in a sober living home in LA, that's what he has to do. I got the tools I needed thru Alanon.
I would never call AA a bullshit program. This crazypjfan is just that, crazy.
The best expression of Love is Time.
The best time to Love is Now.
I'm never as good as when you're there.........
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
"what a long, strange trip it's been"
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Thanks so much, mickeyrat - I knew I could count on you!
I have suggested alanon to her before, and counseling as well, and she's always said she doesn't have time. She feels so overwhelmed trying to make a living and take care of all the responsibilities at the same time. But one time she actually found an alanon group that has online meetings. (It's amazing to me how much the internet has changed life.) She "attended" one meeting and found it helpful, but then he quit drinking. (I think her seeking out that kind of support, as well as the books she ordered about it that came in the mail for him to see, kind of drove the message home for him that this is a serious problem for her, whether or not he thinks it's a serious problem for him.) When he quit drinking, she didn't feel like she needed alanon anymore. I'll encourage her to go back though.
It's hard for the other person, because they can get so stuck in their cycles as well with regard to how they view and handle things, and how they can feel helpless & hopeless, ya know?
I had this exact conversation with a friend the other day. He said he really don't think that I'm an alcoholic.
He almost said word for word what pandora said about me being a drinker with problems.
He believes that I would have had a much harder time giving up the drinking , especially with all that has been going on in my life at the moment than I have. I really have had no problems at all. There has been 3 times when I wanted to drink in the past 46 days. One was after a funeral.
it came up because someone told me they were proud of me for not drinking. for some reason that makes me feel weak. I don't know why.
I would much rather be in control and be able to drink on a social level, not so much for the alcohol itself, but at least I would feel like I have control over it.
By just not drinking, it feels like I am saying that it's stronger than I am. Which it very well could be.
I don't know this though, because I have never stopped drinking this long to see.
It's funny though, many of the people who have been telling me for years I need to chill on the drinking, are now telling me they don't think I have to give it up completley because I'm not an alcoholic.
I don't know.
to stay on the actual topic, I do think AA works for those who make it work for them.
I myself am not the type of person to go to AA. I just said I've had enough, for at least awhile, and stopped drinking.
the thought of sitting in a group of people talking about the problems of alcohol depresses the shit out of me.
but, I do think that AA works as a whole. Just not my thing.
"To question your government is not unpatriotic --
to not question your government is unpatriotic."
-- Sen. Chuck Hagel
I'm against domestic violence as much as anyone else (probably moreso) but this is irrelevant to this thread.
Also, if you are trying to suggest that most alcoholics commit domestic violence, this data doesn't show that (and it's probably not true). You seem to be confusing "most/many incidences of domestic violence were preceded by alcohol consumption" with "most/many incidences of alcoholism/alcohol consumption lead to domestic violence," which is a basic fallacy in logic.
Good point. But I think the two aren't mutually exclusive, or at least they're part of a vicious cycle. It's almost a chicken & egg kind of question, ya know? For my friend's husband, I'd say he has problems which lead him to drink, but also his drinking exacurbates his problems.
One of the sayings in AA is " Carry the message NOT the drunk" And in a sense she is carrying the drunk. For those in alanon , the see how alcoholism affects THEIR life.They are given specific "tools" to deal with that. Continueing to "carry" the drunk is actually doing more harm than good in the long run. In many ways the loved ones of an alcoholic have it far worse than the alcoholic themselves. I know for me , the burden my drinking put on me was bad enough. I can't really imagine the burden the loved one has. Had a brief taste of it when my exwife(met and married while in AA) chose to end the marriage and go back to drinking.
On the one hand that was a gift to me from her , seeing the other side of our Step 1. Yes , very much so a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness. Through nthat I was able to see some areas of improvement for myself. Still painful to go through.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I think my friend's husband feels this way, and I think my ex-boyfriend felt this way as well. They don't want to feel like they have something wrong with them so that they can't have a drink with their friends. It's really important to them to be able to think they can control it and drink normally and have a good time like everyone else. And I feel badly for treating them different, like there's something wrong with them that they can't just make the decision to drink socially like I do.
But, for example, my friend once told her husband (who very much wants kids) that if he would stop drinking for a year she would consider it. So he stopped for the longest amount of time ever - 9 months. It was all looking so good, 'til he went on the annual camping trip with his buddies and thought he could just have a beer around the campfire with them like no big deal. And my friend didn't even hold it against him. But after his buddies left town, he went back to his old ways of drinking from the time he got up in the morning (3 AM) until he passed out at night with the bird left outside to freeze and dinner left on the stove to catch on fire.
So she knows how this "drinking in moderation" will turn out. But she feels bad for treating him like a child and getting upset by "just one harmless drink". Not that she even has the energy to fight with him anymore. But one drink ending a streak of sobriety and all her hopes for her/their future & family go right down the drain. And then he gets all hurt that she doesn't have faith in him.
I'm not sure I fully understand what "Carry the message, not the drunk" means.
I understand about enabling him, and I think she does that. I try to encourage her not to, but she feels stuck in some ways. For instance, they work together and he makes more money than she does. She is constantly covering for him at work for fear that he'll lose his job, which would put both of them in a bind financially. Plus, I know from my own experience that it's hard to not do things to help the people you love - like make their doctors' appointments for them and try to force them to go, etc. It's hard.
As for the phrase , it refers to encourageing the working of the 12 steps.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
AA of course is a great institution. No arguing that. AA here in the south, which maybe the same all over, is heavily faith based- Christian. A strong belief in God is needed to overcome alcoholism is one of the 12 steps at least from people I've known who have joined that is what I'm told.
AA says to turn yourself over to a higher power (or words to that effect)...it doesn't have to be any specific religion