why can you guys not see what we can? please? i don't get it.
I will take a deep breath and say yeah, this soldier looks sadistic and if that's the main point of the original post, I am on board.
i think the main point is this shit continues to happen and people like you appear to be fine with it. and you tell people like me i need a lobotomy...did you even watch the video before you started in on me?? all i said was state sponsored assault and battery was no laughing matter and you proceed to call it ufc 120. that is the part that shits me the most, you laugh about that situation over there...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
why can you guys not see what we can? please? i don't get it.
I will take a deep breath and say yeah, this soldier looks sadistic and if that's the main point of the original post, I am on board.
i think that answers your question as to why she's not playing shuffle board.
Regardless of the merit of my shuffleboard remark, the points yosi made about education still deserve consideration. Perhaps that has nothing to do with this soldier's behavior, but the thread cued a few responses that did not involve that which you guys wanted to hear. badbrains has some serious anger management issues to work out, but beyond that, the rest of you guys cannot concede that Palestinian society is going to need some serious work when/if (I hope when) the Israelis pull out? Even putting aside the fighting in the streets issue, these guys are going to have to figure out how to exist when the reason for the current culture of violence is gone.
why can you guys not see what we can? please? i don't get it.
I will take a deep breath and say yeah, this soldier looks sadistic and if that's the main point of the original post, I am on board.
i think the main point is this shit continues to happen and people like you appear to be fine with it. and you tell people like me i need a lobotomy...did you even watch the video before you started in on me?? all i said was state sponsored assault and battery was no laughing matter and you proceed to call it ufc 120. that is the part that shits me the most, you laugh about that situation over there...
Yes, I watched the video, for the record. If you're going to use that as an excuse to keep hammering away, I'll ask that you back off. For the third (I think?) time ... I get the point.
i wonder if either of you watched the video because what i saw around the 2:08 mark was the IDF shooting tear gas at the villagers, an old woman backing away and an IDF soldier hitting her in the face knocking her back with a fuckign smile on his face.....but yeah, stupid bitch had it comin, she should just go home or move
seriously, around that mark keeping hitting the play button and it'll be like slow-mo. she is backing away from him and he lunges at her and hits her with a big fucking grin[/quote]
i saw. its completely disgusting...how anyone can justify that is beyond me..[/quote]
Yeah, we get the point. Or, at least I do. I don't think yosi gets off on the video clip either, though.[/quote]
No, I certianly don't get off on it. As reborn said I kinda feel that saying that I don't support beating old ladies should go without saying, especially since I've gone to great pains to make clear that I don't support a lot of what Israel, and in this case individual Israelis, do. It's really frustrating actually that no matter how many times I make that clear, people ignore me, I suppose because I disagree with you on a lot of this Israel/Palestine stuff, and your thinking on this issue is so dogmatic and inflexible that you assume that anyone who disagrees with you must automatically support everything Israel does. Honestly, have any of you guys ever heard of nuance?
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
No, I certianly don't get off on it. As reborn said I kinda feel that saying that I don't support beating old ladies should go without saying, especially since I've gone to great pains to make clear that I don't support a lot of what Israel, and in this case individual Israelis, do. It's really frustrating actually that no matter how many times I make that clear, people ignore me, I suppose because I disagree with you on a lot of this Israel/Palestine stuff, and your thinking on this issue is so dogmatic and inflexible that you assume that anyone who disagrees with you must automatically support everything Israel does. Honestly, have any of you guys ever heard of nuance?
No, nuance is lost and unlikely to be found. There's also a little irony, in that gimmesometruth still seems hell bent on making me feel terrible for some poor-taste jokes (I admit, they were in poor taste).
No, I certianly don't get off on it. As reborn said I kinda feel that saying that I don't support beating old ladies should go without saying, especially since I've gone to great pains to make clear that I don't support a lot of what Israel, and in this case individual Israelis, do. It's really frustrating actually that no matter how many times I make that clear, people ignore me, I suppose because I disagree with you on a lot of this Israel/Palestine stuff, and your thinking on this issue is so dogmatic and inflexible that you assume that anyone who disagrees with you must automatically support everything Israel does. Honestly, have any of you guys ever heard of nuance?
No, nuance is lost and unlikely to be found. There's also a little irony, in that gimmesometruth still seems hell bent on making me feel terrible for some poor-taste jokes (I admit, they were in poor taste).
We should have a funeral for nuance, followed by a rocking wake.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
No, I certianly don't get off on it. As reborn said I kinda feel that saying that I don't support beating old ladies should go without saying, especially since I've gone to great pains to make clear that I don't support a lot of what Israel, and in this case individual Israelis, do. It's really frustrating actually that no matter how many times I make that clear, people ignore me, I suppose because I disagree with you on a lot of this Israel/Palestine stuff, and your thinking on this issue is so dogmatic and inflexible that you assume that anyone who disagrees with you must automatically support everything Israel does. Honestly, have any of you guys ever heard of nuance?
No, nuance is lost and unlikely to be found. There's also a little irony, in that gimmesometruth still seems hell bent on making me feel terrible for some poor-taste jokes (I admit, they were in poor taste).
yeah whatever, why don't you look in the mirror when you talk of inflexibility and dogma. remember, when you point one finger at someone else, there are three fingers pointing right back at you...
now leave me the hell out of this. i wasn't going to reply when you said i keep "hammering" you, i was going to let it go, but you brought me back into it with this most recent post/comment. i feel like i can't reply because you will accuse me of "hammering" you when i took you to task for joking about the situation. leave me the hell out of it now, deal??
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
No, I certianly don't get off on it. As reborn said I kinda feel that saying that I don't support beating old ladies should go without saying, especially since I've gone to great pains to make clear that I don't support a lot of what Israel, and in this case individual Israelis, do. It's really frustrating actually that no matter how many times I make that clear, people ignore me, I suppose because I disagree with you on a lot of this Israel/Palestine stuff, and your thinking on this issue is so dogmatic and inflexible that you assume that anyone who disagrees with you must automatically support everything Israel does. Honestly, have any of you guys ever heard of nuance?
No, nuance is lost and unlikely to be found. There's also a little irony, in that gimmesometruth still seems hell bent on making me feel terrible for some poor-taste jokes (I admit, they were in poor taste).
yeah whatever, why don't you look in the mirror when you talk of inflexibility and dogma. remember, when you point one finger at someone else, there are three fingers pointing right back at you...
now leave me the hell out of this. i wasn't going to reply when you said i keep "hammering" you, i was going to let it go, but you brought me back into it with this most recent post/comment. i feel like i can't reply because you will accuse me of "hammering" you when i took you to task for joking about the situation. leave me the hell out of it now, deal??
I hope people aren't pointing at me. It makes me self-conscious.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Reborn, your choice in humor are the reason I think you're a scumbag. Me need anger management? Sure I'll buy that. But maybe it's cuz seeing how those Palestinians are being treated by ALL aspects of life is making me snap. Then I get this smart ass attacking my fucken grammar/grammer. Who the fuck cares about my grammar. You're worrying about my grammar instead of the real concern. Ok, if that makes you feel better about yourself, attack my grammar all you want. Palestine remains the issue. Correct grammar or not.
To turn now from digits, and go back to the point about Palestinian society post-occupation (hopefully soon, though I wouldn't bet on it), I found this today:
Benny Morris: "The “moderate” Hamas leader Ismail Haniya almost daily repeats that Hamas will never recognize Israel, and less frequently says that it will continue the struggle until all of Palestine reverts to Palestinian Muslim rule. Hamas “extremists” such as Khalid Mashal speak even more firmly about Israel’s eventual demise and its replacement with a Muslim polity governed in line with sharia law. Indeed, sharia has been gradually imposed, without much fanfare, in the Gaza Strip since Hamas gained dominion there--no mixing of the sexes in public, harsh dress codes, no alcohol, no cinemas, no Internet cafes, and, gradually, no Christians (a few have been murdered, most have left)."
I also think there is the issue of the lionization of "shahids," which is to say those killed in the act of killing Israelis. I read the other day that after the Park Hotel/Passover bombing in Netanya, in which over 30 Israelis were killed, and dozens more injured, while they were having the Passover Seder, a Palestinian soccer tournament was named in honor of the suicide bomber responsible for the Netanya bombing. There are posters all over Palestinian villages and towns that celebrate such people as heroes, and there are regular mass celebrations in the street whenever there is a particularly successful (that is deadly) terror attack (by the way there were huge celebrations among Palestinians on September 11, which were documented on tape). There are also numerous videos of Palestinian children being taught that becoming a "Shahid" should be their greatest aspiration in life. My point in all this is that this seems like a very sick society. You can't just undo a death cult overnight. If you really care about the Palestinians this should worry you a lot.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Reborn, your choice in humor are the reason I think you're a scumbag. Me need anger management? Sure I'll buy that. But maybe it's cuz seeing how those Palestinians are being treated by ALL aspects of life is making me snap. Then I get this smart ass attacking my fucken grammar/grammer. Who the fuck cares about my grammar. You're worrying about my grammar instead of the real concern. Ok, if that makes you feel better about yourself, attack my grammar all you want. Palestine remains the issue. Correct grammar or not.
I feel just fine about myself, and its not because I attacked your spelling. I did this AFTER you told me to fuck off and called me a few other choice things. I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from acting like an asshole and blowing your lid, and I'll refrain from joking about any Palestine-related issues. Sure, I have a problem with using humor to deflect things when something makes me uncomfortable. I'll own up to that and I won't crack jokes in response to these sorts of posts anymore. I don't see how doing so makes me a scumbag, though. I'd appreciate it if you'd avoid the name-calling, and I will do my best to not set you off with bad jokes.
Yosi, dnt start lying about the christians in Palestine. Dnt u dare throw that lie out there cuz I have a friend in Butler New Jersey who belongs to the church of nativity and he will take you to task on that matter. Dnt u dare start playing the propaganda card. You know that's bull shit so dnt even start. I saw emails sent to his church in NJ. I read them personaly and that is not the case. So put a rest that bull shit talk. I gave you a lot of respect on your belief please dnt make me change my mind now.
Benny Morris: "The “moderate” Hamas leader Ismail Haniya almost daily repeats that Hamas will never recognize Israel, and less frequently says that it will continue the struggle until all of Palestine reverts to Palestinian Muslim rule. Hamas “extremists” such as Khalid Mashal speak even more firmly about Israel’s eventual demise and its replacement with a Muslim polity governed in line with sharia law. Indeed, sharia has been gradually imposed, without much fanfare, in the Gaza Strip since Hamas gained dominion there--no mixing of the sexes in public, harsh dress codes, no alcohol, no cinemas, no Internet cafes, and, gradually, no Christians (a few have been murdered, most have left)."
I also think there is the issue of the lionization of "shahids," which is to say those killed in the act of killing Israelis. I read the other day that after the Park Hotel/Passover bombing in Netanya, in which over 30 Israelis were killed, and dozens more injured, while they were having the Passover Seder, a Palestinian soccer tournament was named in honor of the suicide bomber responsible for the Netanya bombing. There are posters all over Palestinian villages and towns that celebrate such people as heroes, and there are regular mass celebrations in the street whenever there is a particularly successful (that is deadly) terror attack (by the way there were huge celebrations among Palestinians on September 11, which were documented on tape). There are also numerous videos of Palestinian children being taught that becoming a "Shahid" should be their greatest aspiration in life. My point in all this is that this seems like a very sick society. You can't just undo a death cult overnight. If you really care about the Palestinians this should worry you a lot.
There was a documentary on CBC television pretty recently about female suicide bombers. Among other topics, a Palestinian couple was interviewed, and they mentioned that they would attain great honor in the neighborhood if their daughter committed a suicide bombing. An Israeli woman who had lost her daughter in a grocery store bombing was being interviewed at the same time and in the same room ... She outright asked
the father if he personally would be proud if his daughter did such a thing, and he refused to answer the question. In this case, silence spoke volumes, I think. In fairness, my wife pointed out that the guy was being interviewed on camera, and perhaps he was afraid to share his real views on that issue for fear that neighbours would see the clip and accuse him of being a traitor. I'd like to believe my wife's take.
I hope people aren't pointing at me. It makes me self-conscious.
no, when you point at others with your index finger, your three remaining fingers point back at you. its an old midwestern saying...
Even a cursory glance at my recent posts on Israel-Palestine reveals that I am anything but dogmatic about this issue. I may not qualify everything I say in every post about Palestinian behavior, but I do freely concede that Israeli behavior is a huge problem in this situation.
Yosi, dnt start lying about the christians in Palestine. Dnt u dare throw that lie out there cuz I have a friend in Butler New Jersey who belongs to the church of nativity and he will take you to task on that matter. Dnt u dare start playing the propaganda card. You know that's bull shit so dnt even start. I saw emails sent to his church in NJ. I read them personaly and that is not the case. So put a rest that bull shit talk. I gave you a lot of respect on your belief please dnt make me change my mind now.
The thing about the Christians in Gaza (which by the way isn't where the Church of the Nativity is, it is in Bethlehem, in the West Bank) was part of a quote from Benny Morris, one of the leading scholars on the Israeli-Arab conflict. I'm not sure why you feel this is propaganda. As I understand it many Palestinian Christians have been treated somewhat less than well by their Muslim neighbors. I have personally spoken to Christian Palestinians from Beit Sahur (a Christian suburb of Bethlehem) who told me about how Muslim Palestinian terrorists forced people in their village to allow them to use their houses and church steeples as bases to shoot at nearby Israeli neighborhoods, which was bad enough, except that it also made their village into a target for Israeli counter-attacks, which was even worse. I don't feel that this is propaganda at all. I'm simply relating to you what I have seen myself and been told by people to whom this actually happened.
But could you please explain what you mean? Your post was more than a little vague. What is not the case? What do you think is bullshit? I'd also like to know what your thoughts are on the rest of my post aside from Benny Morris' one line about Christians in Gaza?
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Benny Morris: "The “moderate” Hamas leader Ismail Haniya almost daily repeats that Hamas will never recognize Israel, and less frequently says that it will continue the struggle until all of Palestine reverts to Palestinian Muslim rule. Hamas “extremists” such as Khalid Mashal speak even more firmly about Israel’s eventual demise and its replacement with a Muslim polity governed in line with sharia law. Indeed, sharia has been gradually imposed, without much fanfare, in the Gaza Strip since Hamas gained dominion there--no mixing of the sexes in public, harsh dress codes, no alcohol, no cinemas, no Internet cafes, and, gradually, no Christians (a few have been murdered, most have left)."
I also think there is the issue of the lionization of "shahids," which is to say those killed in the act of killing Israelis. I read the other day that after the Park Hotel/Passover bombing in Netanya, in which over 30 Israelis were killed, and dozens more injured, while they were having the Passover Seder, a Palestinian soccer tournament was named in honor of the suicide bomber responsible for the Netanya bombing. There are posters all over Palestinian villages and towns that celebrate such people as heroes, and there are regular mass celebrations in the street whenever there is a particularly successful (that is deadly) terror attack (by the way there were huge celebrations among Palestinians on September 11, which were documented on tape). There are also numerous videos of Palestinian children being taught that becoming a "Shahid" should be their greatest aspiration in life. My point in all this is that this seems like a very sick society. You can't just undo a death cult overnight. If you really care about the Palestinians this should worry you a lot.
There was a documentary on CBC television pretty recently about female suicide bombers. Among other topics, a Palestinian couple was interviewed, and they mentioned that they would attain great honor in the neighborhood if their daughter committed a suicide bombing. An Israeli woman who had lost her daughter in a grocery store bombing was being interviewed at the same time and in the same room ... She outright asked
the father if he personally would be proud if his daughter did such a thing, and he refused to answer the question. In this case, silence spoke volumes, I think. In fairness, my wife pointed out that the guy was being interviewed on camera, and perhaps he was afraid to share his real views on that issue for fear that neighbours would see the clip and accuse him of being a traitor. I'd like to believe my wife's take.
I think I've seen the same film, or else it sounds like clips from the film I saw were used in this CBS piece. It was a great movie. I think that the families weren't actually in the same room but were talking to each other through a video live feed, and what made it so compelling was that the Palestinian family's daughter was the bomber that killed the Israeli family's daughter. I remember that what struck me about the movie was that all the Palestinians kept talking about how the most important thing is resisting the occupation, and that this had become like a sort of mantra, to the point that "resistance" (which it was clear meant in this context violent resistance) had morphed from being a means to an end (ending the occupation) into an end in itself. That is to say that the link between resistance and the efficacy of resistance was no longer there. Suffice it to say that I came away from the film very depressed.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Yes, that's the one, you have much better memory for the details than I do. I think my memory was fogged by how disgusting I found the implications of what I was watching to be, quite frankly. And this sort of thing is WHY I raised the whole issue of Palestinian society in this thread in the first place, I guess. You watch a clip of this soldier, which cues knowledge of the other side's atrocities. I also remember the revolting feelings I got when I first heard about 9-11, and then later watching that clip of those people cheering in the streets. That stuff sticks with me, big time.
Yosi, dnt start lying about the christians in Palestine. Dnt u dare throw that lie out there cuz I have a friend in Butler New Jersey who belongs to the church of nativity and he will take you to task on that matter. Dnt u dare start playing the propaganda card. You know that's bull shit so dnt even start. I saw emails sent to his church in NJ. I read them personaly and that is not the case. So put a rest that bull shit talk. I gave you a lot of respect on your belief please dnt make me change my mind now.
The thing about the Christians in Gaza (which by the way isn't where the Church of the Nativity is, it is in Bethlehem, in the West Bank) was part of a quote from Benny Morris, one of the leading scholars on the Israeli-Arab conflict. I'm not sure why you feel this is propaganda. As I understand it many Palestinian Christians have been treated somewhat less than well by their Muslim neighbors. I have personally spoken to Christian Palestinians from Beit Sahur (a Christian suburb of Bethlehem) who told me about how Muslim Palestinian terrorists forced people in their village to allow them to use their houses and church steeples as bases to shoot at nearby Israeli neighborhoods, which was bad enough, except that it also made their village into a target for Israeli counter-attacks, which was even worse. I don't feel that this is propaganda at all. I'm simply relating to you what I have seen myself and been told by people to whom this actually happened.
But could you please explain what you mean? Your post was more than a little vague. What is not the case? What do you think is bullshit? I'd also like to know what your thoughts are on the rest of my post aside from Benny Morris' one line about Christians in Gaza?
After looking into the Christian thing a little further there seems to be opinions both ways about whether they are or not being persecuted in Gaza. Some claim that they are, others claim that they aren't and cite interviews with Gaza Christians as proof, to which people respond that the interviews can't be trusted because the interviewees are afraid to speak the truth while still living in Gaza. I'm frankly not sure what to make of all this, so I'll say that I don't know what is going on with Christians in Gaza. The story about Beit Sahur is absolutely true however, and the rest of my post that did not have anything to do with Christians I stand by 100%. I hope this cleared up some stuff.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Yes, that's the one, you have much better memory for the details than I do. I think my memory was fogged by how disgusting I found the implications of what I was watching to be, quite frankly. And this sort of thing is WHY I raised the whole issue of Palestinian society in this thread in the first place, I guess. You watch a clip of this soldier, which cues knowledge of the other side's atrocities. I also remember the revolting feelings I got when I first heard about 9-11, and then later watching that clip of those people cheering in the streets. That stuff sticks with me, big time.
It's a really sad story. The bomber and the victim were pretty much the same age (16 I think), and even looked almost identical. In the movie they put pictures of them side by side and its shocking how similar they look. It's a gimmick, but a powerful one I thought. And then the Israeli Mom just goes on this mission to speak with the parents of her daughter's murderer, cause she just can't rest unless she can talk to them, and try to get some understanding, but at the end of the day neither side can really communicate with the other.
Which reminds me of another story from the NY Times from a few weeks back, more optimistic sort of, about two families, one Israeli and one Palestinian, who's kids have become friends in the Israeli hospital where they are both being treated. You know what you guys should read it for yourselves:
the rest of you guys cannot concede that Palestinian society is going to need some serious work when/if (I hope when) the Israelis pull out? Even putting aside the fighting in the streets issue, these guys are going to have to figure out how to exist when the reason for the current culture of violence is gone.
other than the fact that it's not a culture of violence (that's actually a pretty disrespectful thing to say considering you're applying the actions of a minority to millions of people), I agree with you. Palestinian society is absolutely going to have to work hard after achieving any form of independence - but that's the point, they have no independence right now. Not in the West Bank and not in Gaza. The West Bank's government is infiltrated by crooks and collaborators, who work hand in hand with the Israelis to make life in the West Bank miserable for the 2.5 million Palestinians. Hamas, on the other hand, in Gaza has not been able to properly govern due to its isolation from the world caused by Israel's illegal blockade. Both of these problems are inherently at the fault of Israel. Basically, Israel needs to stop trying to infiltrate any form of Palestinian organization (whether it be through corrupting politicians, assassinating leaders, or isolating over a million people), and withdraw to the '67 borders. Once the Palestinians can be properly assured that their future prospects will be granted, this type of conversation will be more useful.
the rest of you guys cannot concede that Palestinian society is going to need some serious work when/if (I hope when) the Israelis pull out? Even putting aside the fighting in the streets issue, these guys are going to have to figure out how to exist when the reason for the current culture of violence is gone.
other than the fact that it's not a culture of violence (that's actually a pretty disrespectful thing to say considering you're applying the actions of a minority to millions of people), I agree with you. Palestinian society is absolutely going to have to work hard after achieving any form of independence - but that's the point, they have no independence right now. Not in the West Bank and not in Gaza. The West Bank's government is infiltrated by crooks and collaborators, who work hand in hand with the Israelis to make life in the West Bank miserable for the 2.5 million Palestinians. Hamas, on the other hand, in Gaza has not been able to properly govern due to its isolation from the world caused by Israel's illegal blockade. Both of these problems are inherently at the fault of Israel. Basically, Israel needs to stop trying to infiltrate any form of Palestinian organization (whether it be through corrupting politicians, assassinating leaders, or isolating over a million people), and withdraw to the '67 borders. Once the Palestinians can be properly assured that their future prospects will be granted, this type of conversation will be more useful.
I just think that they have to start building the society they would like to have now. I'm glad that you recognize that there is a lot of stuff that they'll have to work on, but I disagree that we should excuse all the problems until the occupation is over. I feel this way because I think that if the Palestinians started to mend their own society it would contribute in itself to resolving the conflict, and I also simply don't think that the occupation excuses a lot of what goes on. There have been other societies in other times and places that have also been horribly oppressed that did not allow their oppression to warp their society, or at least struggled to do so seeing it as a form of resistance to maintain the dignity of their society in the face of oppression. To be clear I think I understand why Palestinian society has become what it has become, I just don't think it has to be that way regardless of the conditions they find themselves in.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
the rest of you guys cannot concede that Palestinian society is going to need some serious work when/if (I hope when) the Israelis pull out? Even putting aside the fighting in the streets issue, these guys are going to have to figure out how to exist when the reason for the current culture of violence is gone.
other than the fact that it's not a culture of violence (that's actually a pretty disrespectful thing to say considering you're applying the actions of a minority to millions of people), I agree with you. Palestinian society is absolutely going to have to work hard after achieving any form of independence - but that's the point, they have no independence right now. Not in the West Bank and not in Gaza. The West Bank's government is infiltrated by crooks and collaborators, who work hand in hand with the Israelis to make life in the West Bank miserable for the 2.5 million Palestinians. Hamas, on the other hand, in Gaza has not been able to properly govern due to its isolation from the world caused by Israel's illegal blockade. Both of these problems are inherently at the fault of Israel. Basically, Israel needs to stop trying to infiltrate any form of Palestinian organization (whether it be through corrupting politicians, assassinating leaders, or isolating over a million people), and withdraw to the '67 borders. Once the Palestinians can be properly assured that their future prospects will be granted, this type of conversation will be more useful.
Well, would you get offended if I called U.S. society a culture of violence? Because I have before (albeit for different reasons). The fact of the matter is that in Palestinian society, suicide bombers are heroes and the society is currently structured around violent resistance. Hamas holds the political reigns in Gaza, do they not? The facts might not be easy to take, but they are not disrespectful. Saying this is not an inditement of all the people involved; obviously, a great many Palestinians are not violent people and they probably just want to live their lives in peace. There is nevertheless a clear trend towards violentization in Palestine. Even if the Israelis are held to be solely accountable for this, the trend is real. Think about it. You guys say much the same about the Israelis, and is that not on par with my label?
All that said? Great post, and I agree with the rest of what you said.
the rest of you guys cannot concede that Palestinian society is going to need some serious work when/if (I hope when) the Israelis pull out? Even putting aside the fighting in the streets issue, these guys are going to have to figure out how to exist when the reason for the current culture of violence is gone.
other than the fact that it's not a culture of violence (that's actually a pretty disrespectful thing to say considering you're applying the actions of a minority to millions of people), I agree with you. Palestinian society is absolutely going to have to work hard after achieving any form of independence - but that's the point, they have no independence right now. Not in the West Bank and not in Gaza. The West Bank's government is infiltrated by crooks and collaborators, who work hand in hand with the Israelis to make life in the West Bank miserable for the 2.5 million Palestinians. Hamas, on the other hand, in Gaza has not been able to properly govern due to its isolation from the world caused by Israel's illegal blockade. Both of these problems are inherently at the fault of Israel. Basically, Israel needs to stop trying to infiltrate any form of Palestinian organization (whether it be through corrupting politicians, assassinating leaders, or isolating over a million people), and withdraw to the '67 borders. Once the Palestinians can be properly assured that their future prospects will be granted, this type of conversation will be more useful.
Well, would you get offended if I called U.S. society a culture of violence? Because I have before (albeit for different reasons). The fact of the matter is that in Palestinian society, suicide bombers are heroes and the society is currently structured around violent resistance. Hamas holds the political reigns in Gaza, do they not? The facts might not be easy to take, but they are not disrespectful. Saying this is not an inditement of all the people involved; obviously, a great many Palestinians are not violent people and they probably just want to live their lives in peace. There is nevertheless a clear trend towards violentization in Palestine. Even if the Israelis are held to be solely accountable for this, the trend is real. Think about it. You guys say much the same about the Israelis, and is that not on par with my label?
All that said? Great post, and I agree with the rest of what you said.
"Violentization"
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
I know, its sounds like a made-up word. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violentization
Violentization is a process described by criminologist Lonnie Athens whereby individuals are inured and trained to commit violence. Athens' research suggests individuals' paths to violence almost always involve social conditioning to favor violent resolutions for social situations.
I know, its sounds like a made-up word. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violentization
Violentization is a process described by criminologist Lonnie Athens whereby individuals are inured and trained to commit violence. Athens' research suggests individuals' paths to violence almost always involve social conditioning to favor violent resolutions for social situations.
Wow, learn something new every day.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Comments
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Regardless of the merit of my shuffleboard remark, the points yosi made about education still deserve consideration. Perhaps that has nothing to do with this soldier's behavior, but the thread cued a few responses that did not involve that which you guys wanted to hear. badbrains has some serious anger management issues to work out, but beyond that, the rest of you guys cannot concede that Palestinian society is going to need some serious work when/if (I hope when) the Israelis pull out? Even putting aside the fighting in the streets issue, these guys are going to have to figure out how to exist when the reason for the current culture of violence is gone.
Yes, I watched the video, for the record. If you're going to use that as an excuse to keep hammering away, I'll ask that you back off. For the third (I think?) time ... I get the point.
seriously, around that mark keeping hitting the play button and it'll be like slow-mo. she is backing away from him and he lunges at her and hits her with a big fucking grin[/quote]
i saw. its completely disgusting...how anyone can justify that is beyond me..[/quote]
Yeah, we get the point. Or, at least I do. I don't think yosi gets off on the video clip either, though.[/quote]
No, I certianly don't get off on it. As reborn said I kinda feel that saying that I don't support beating old ladies should go without saying, especially since I've gone to great pains to make clear that I don't support a lot of what Israel, and in this case individual Israelis, do. It's really frustrating actually that no matter how many times I make that clear, people ignore me, I suppose because I disagree with you on a lot of this Israel/Palestine stuff, and your thinking on this issue is so dogmatic and inflexible that you assume that anyone who disagrees with you must automatically support everything Israel does. Honestly, have any of you guys ever heard of nuance?
No, nuance is lost and unlikely to be found. There's also a little irony, in that gimmesometruth still seems hell bent on making me feel terrible for some poor-taste jokes (I admit, they were in poor taste).
We should have a funeral for nuance, followed by a rocking wake.
now leave me the hell out of this. i wasn't going to reply when you said i keep "hammering" you, i was going to let it go, but you brought me back into it with this most recent post/comment. i feel like i can't reply because you will accuse me of "hammering" you when i took you to task for joking about the situation. leave me the hell out of it now, deal??
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I hope people aren't pointing at me. It makes me self-conscious.
no, when you point at others with your index finger, your three remaining fingers point back at you. its an old midwestern saying...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Benny Morris: "The “moderate” Hamas leader Ismail Haniya almost daily repeats that Hamas will never recognize Israel, and less frequently says that it will continue the struggle until all of Palestine reverts to Palestinian Muslim rule. Hamas “extremists” such as Khalid Mashal speak even more firmly about Israel’s eventual demise and its replacement with a Muslim polity governed in line with sharia law. Indeed, sharia has been gradually imposed, without much fanfare, in the Gaza Strip since Hamas gained dominion there--no mixing of the sexes in public, harsh dress codes, no alcohol, no cinemas, no Internet cafes, and, gradually, no Christians (a few have been murdered, most have left)."
I also think there is the issue of the lionization of "shahids," which is to say those killed in the act of killing Israelis. I read the other day that after the Park Hotel/Passover bombing in Netanya, in which over 30 Israelis were killed, and dozens more injured, while they were having the Passover Seder, a Palestinian soccer tournament was named in honor of the suicide bomber responsible for the Netanya bombing. There are posters all over Palestinian villages and towns that celebrate such people as heroes, and there are regular mass celebrations in the street whenever there is a particularly successful (that is deadly) terror attack (by the way there were huge celebrations among Palestinians on September 11, which were documented on tape). There are also numerous videos of Palestinian children being taught that becoming a "Shahid" should be their greatest aspiration in life. My point in all this is that this seems like a very sick society. You can't just undo a death cult overnight. If you really care about the Palestinians this should worry you a lot.
I feel just fine about myself, and its not because I attacked your spelling. I did this AFTER you told me to fuck off and called me a few other choice things. I'd appreciate it if you would refrain from acting like an asshole and blowing your lid, and I'll refrain from joking about any Palestine-related issues. Sure, I have a problem with using humor to deflect things when something makes me uncomfortable. I'll own up to that and I won't crack jokes in response to these sorts of posts anymore. I don't see how doing so makes me a scumbag, though. I'd appreciate it if you'd avoid the name-calling, and I will do my best to not set you off with bad jokes.
There was a documentary on CBC television pretty recently about female suicide bombers. Among other topics, a Palestinian couple was interviewed, and they mentioned that they would attain great honor in the neighborhood if their daughter committed a suicide bombing. An Israeli woman who had lost her daughter in a grocery store bombing was being interviewed at the same time and in the same room ... She outright asked
the father if he personally would be proud if his daughter did such a thing, and he refused to answer the question. In this case, silence spoke volumes, I think. In fairness, my wife pointed out that the guy was being interviewed on camera, and perhaps he was afraid to share his real views on that issue for fear that neighbours would see the clip and accuse him of being a traitor. I'd like to believe my wife's take.
Even a cursory glance at my recent posts on Israel-Palestine reveals that I am anything but dogmatic about this issue. I may not qualify everything I say in every post about Palestinian behavior, but I do freely concede that Israeli behavior is a huge problem in this situation.
The thing about the Christians in Gaza (which by the way isn't where the Church of the Nativity is, it is in Bethlehem, in the West Bank) was part of a quote from Benny Morris, one of the leading scholars on the Israeli-Arab conflict. I'm not sure why you feel this is propaganda. As I understand it many Palestinian Christians have been treated somewhat less than well by their Muslim neighbors. I have personally spoken to Christian Palestinians from Beit Sahur (a Christian suburb of Bethlehem) who told me about how Muslim Palestinian terrorists forced people in their village to allow them to use their houses and church steeples as bases to shoot at nearby Israeli neighborhoods, which was bad enough, except that it also made their village into a target for Israeli counter-attacks, which was even worse. I don't feel that this is propaganda at all. I'm simply relating to you what I have seen myself and been told by people to whom this actually happened.
But could you please explain what you mean? Your post was more than a little vague. What is not the case? What do you think is bullshit? I'd also like to know what your thoughts are on the rest of my post aside from Benny Morris' one line about Christians in Gaza?
I think I've seen the same film, or else it sounds like clips from the film I saw were used in this CBS piece. It was a great movie. I think that the families weren't actually in the same room but were talking to each other through a video live feed, and what made it so compelling was that the Palestinian family's daughter was the bomber that killed the Israeli family's daughter. I remember that what struck me about the movie was that all the Palestinians kept talking about how the most important thing is resisting the occupation, and that this had become like a sort of mantra, to the point that "resistance" (which it was clear meant in this context violent resistance) had morphed from being a means to an end (ending the occupation) into an end in itself. That is to say that the link between resistance and the efficacy of resistance was no longer there. Suffice it to say that I came away from the film very depressed.
After looking into the Christian thing a little further there seems to be opinions both ways about whether they are or not being persecuted in Gaza. Some claim that they are, others claim that they aren't and cite interviews with Gaza Christians as proof, to which people respond that the interviews can't be trusted because the interviewees are afraid to speak the truth while still living in Gaza. I'm frankly not sure what to make of all this, so I'll say that I don't know what is going on with Christians in Gaza. The story about Beit Sahur is absolutely true however, and the rest of my post that did not have anything to do with Christians I stand by 100%. I hope this cleared up some stuff.
It's a really sad story. The bomber and the victim were pretty much the same age (16 I think), and even looked almost identical. In the movie they put pictures of them side by side and its shocking how similar they look. It's a gimmick, but a powerful one I thought. And then the Israeli Mom just goes on this mission to speak with the parents of her daughter's murderer, cause she just can't rest unless she can talk to them, and try to get some understanding, but at the end of the day neither side can really communicate with the other.
Which reminds me of another story from the NY Times from a few weeks back, more optimistic sort of, about two families, one Israeli and one Palestinian, who's kids have become friends in the Israeli hospital where they are both being treated. You know what you guys should read it for yourselves:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/world ... ner&st=cse
I just think that they have to start building the society they would like to have now. I'm glad that you recognize that there is a lot of stuff that they'll have to work on, but I disagree that we should excuse all the problems until the occupation is over. I feel this way because I think that if the Palestinians started to mend their own society it would contribute in itself to resolving the conflict, and I also simply don't think that the occupation excuses a lot of what goes on. There have been other societies in other times and places that have also been horribly oppressed that did not allow their oppression to warp their society, or at least struggled to do so seeing it as a form of resistance to maintain the dignity of their society in the face of oppression. To be clear I think I understand why Palestinian society has become what it has become, I just don't think it has to be that way regardless of the conditions they find themselves in.
Well, would you get offended if I called U.S. society a culture of violence? Because I have before (albeit for different reasons). The fact of the matter is that in Palestinian society, suicide bombers are heroes and the society is currently structured around violent resistance. Hamas holds the political reigns in Gaza, do they not? The facts might not be easy to take, but they are not disrespectful. Saying this is not an inditement of all the people involved; obviously, a great many Palestinians are not violent people and they probably just want to live their lives in peace. There is nevertheless a clear trend towards violentization in Palestine. Even if the Israelis are held to be solely accountable for this, the trend is real. Think about it. You guys say much the same about the Israelis, and is that not on par with my label?
All that said? Great post, and I agree with the rest of what you said.
"Violentization"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violentization
Violentization is a process described by criminologist Lonnie Athens whereby individuals are inured and trained to commit violence. Athens' research suggests individuals' paths to violence almost always involve social conditioning to favor violent resolutions for social situations.
Wow, learn something new every day.
Social scientists, always making shit up!