Indeed. I think part of why I get sucked back in (from time to time, I am about ready to avoid these threads again) is my drive to disprove the erroneous view that "a reluctance to debate with me on here = my position is the right one". This is, in essence, a form of rigid thinking in which one's own sense of righteousness becomes so all-consuming that basic social phenomena ("I am sick of this debate because the other person has no respect for me or my position and its just getting painful") become construed as yet another source of evidence that one's ideological position is true in some universal sense ... A lot of the time, the reality is that it just gets tiring dealing with a few of the personalities on here. These personalities then go "See, they fall before the unrelenting power of TRUTH". Nope ... We fall before the unrelenting power of what comes across as poor social skills and extreme dogmatism.
Let the flaming ensue.
These people don't respond to your posts because they know there isn't any point, but they certainly don't agree with you.
+1 ...
At one time there were more people around here who had different perspectives on Israel-Palestine and the debate was a lot richer for it. Unfortunately, many of these people gave up arguing. They are either smarter or less stubborn than me.
how can anyone who is passionate or cares about the situation, no matter what side of the fence they sit on, remain silent? i know i can't.
private messages and the content of those are supposed to be private. it is completely disrespectful to use those in an argument. if people are too hesitant to voice their concerns about an issue in a thread, and would instead, prefer to resort to hiding behind private messages to pat you on your back, then so be it. personally i think they would be a lot better off supporting you in the thread and giving their own insight into the matter. maybe we can all learn something new.
What are they so afraid of? everyone knows Byrnzie is a great debator, but it's such a bullshit excuse that you 'gave up arguing' on the Palestine/Israel issue because there 'isn't any point". if you were passionate and cared enough about the conflict, you would never give up. and if you aren't passionate, then why would you even bother sending some random a PM. no one has to argue unless they want to. what would be so wrong with coming into a thread, voicing your opinion in a reasonable manner and then exiting? At the end of the day, who gives a shit what anyone else thinks?
hiding behind private messages, and using private messages to make a point on a message board when you know you can't disclose the content
"I feel like I'm witnessing the systematic destruction of a people's ability to survive. It's horrifying...It takes a while to get what's happening here. People here are trying to maintain their lives, trying to be happy. Sometimes I sit down to dinner with people and I realize there is a massive military machine surrounding us, trying to kill the people I'm having dinner with."
- Rachel Corrie
I've gotten more than a few PM's from people following our little disagreements who have told me not to even bother responding to you because you will always evade direct questions, get all of your information from a few very biased anti-Israel websites, and are always unable to think outside the narrow intellectual box you currently inhabit.
Anti-Israel websites, such as the BBC, The Guardian, Haaretz, http://www.un.org/en/, e.t.c. Because anyone who criticizes Israels illegal occupation is anti-Israel, right?
I'm telling you right now that if you tried to peddle your fringe quotations in the real world in any context outside of a meeting of the far-left radicals that produce those quotes you would simply be laughed at.
And what 'fringe quotations' might these be? Care to focus on anything in particular? Perhaps you're referring to the quotation that draws attention to the fact that every year at the U.N 156 countries vote in favour of U.N resolution 242, and are opposed by just the U.S and Israel. Does that qualify as a fringe fact in your scheme of things?
What I HAVE said is that Israel will not and should not unilaterally end the occupation, because this would put them in harms way if recent experience is to serve as precedent.
And like I said above, this is pure bullshit. Placing scattered settlements in amongst the Palestinians whose land you've stolen means they're already in harms way. You're just making excuses.
The international community, in supporting the Oslo peace process, has repeatedly and clearly given its support to Israel's right to seek to adjust the '67 line (which is an armistice line, not a settled border) in final border negotiations with the Palestinians, probably with Israel compensating the Palestinians for land they give up to Israel with Israeli land elsewhere adjacent to either the West Bank or Gaza.
The Apartheid Bantustan, Swiss Cheese proposals at Oslo were rightfully rejected by the Palestinians as they did not provide grounds for a legitimate Palestinian state.
http://www.reliefweb.int/rwarchive/rwb. ... enDocument 'Israel maintains its Gaza siege in its full fury, allowing only barely enough food and fuel to enter to stave off mass famine and disease. Such a policy of collective punishment, initiated by Israel to punish Gazans for political developments within the Gaza strip, constitutes a continuing flagrant and massive violation of international humanitarian law as laid down in Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.'
Yeah, the internet would seem to reward the most caustically authoritarian voices. If you scream loud enough and make debating you infuriating enough, reasonable people will simply stop wasting their time. That's what I did. I just walked away for a couple years until I found myself without a job and with nothing better to do. Anyways, once the reasonable people leave you get a nice, cozy little space where everyone will agree with you and no one will ever challenge your views. Which is probably why when someone wanders in with a different perspective you respond with such anger and venom, cause you simply can't abide a dissenting voice.
You did challenge my views, and now that you feel backed into a corner you've resorted to personally attacking me. I've blown every one of your arguments out of the water over the past two or three days which is why you're now resorting to this bullshit.
And at what point before today did I respond with anger and venom?
I said it before and I'll say it again, dnt fuck with Byrnzie. He knows his shit. And isn't it funny how when people have nothing else to say, thay attack you personally or they attack your grammar. Look there's two sides to every story. Everyone has there own opinions on them. Yosi I give u credit in defending your beliefs. I've even sent you two pm telling you that. It's just hard for any of us to believe your beliefs cuz speaking for
myself ONLY, your definition of Zionism is totaly different from what I believe them to be. Dnt hate me for it cuz I dnt hate you for your beliefs. In a perfect world all humans would be able to live free. Free from war, free from hate, just free. And until that day comes, just hold on to that hope that the day in coming. Dnt stop believeing, hoping and fighting for that day. God willing it'll come to all.
Indeed. I think part of why I get sucked back in (from time to time, I am about ready to avoid these threads again) is my drive to disprove the erroneous view that "a reluctance to debate with me on here = my position is the right one". This is, in essence, a form of rigid thinking in which one's own sense of righteousness becomes so all-consuming that basic social phenomena ("I am sick of this debate because the other person has no respect for me or my position and its just getting painful") become construed as yet another source of evidence that one's ideological position is true in some universal sense ... A lot of the time, the reality is that it just gets tiring dealing with a few of the personalities on here. These personalities then go "See, they fall before the unrelenting power of TRUTH". Nope ... We fall before the unrelenting power of what comes across as poor social skills and extreme dogmatism.
Let the flaming ensue.
This has nothing to do with any reluctance to debate with me on here. He was unable to respond to a particular post of mine and so he resorted to attacking my personality instead. You then decided to chime in and support him.
Though I can see how it may benefit some people here to reduce the debate to a lame discussion about 'personalities', 'positions' and 'righteousness'.
At one time there were more people around here who had different perspectives on Israel-Palestine and the debate was a lot richer for it. Unfortunately, many of these people gave up arguing. They are either smarter or less stubborn than me.
Such as? 'Jlew' & 'Last Exodus', aka 'The Face', AKA 'Brmlw', AKA 'Encinoman'?'
I'm telling you right now that if you tried to peddle your fringe quotations in the real world in any context outside of a meeting of the far-left radicals that produce those quotes you would simply be laughed at.
Care to provide an example of a 'fringe quotation'? Then when you've provided it, maybe you can enlighten us at to how what it says is false. Thanks. I'm waiting.
I don't feel backed into a corner. I just don't feel like there is much of a point in my continuing to respond to you. You clearly have no interest in a reasonable debate, and I say this not because you disagree with me, but because you consistently ignore most of what I have to say, and misrepresent the rest. You claim that you've blown my arguments out of the water, but in fact most of my arguments you have either ignored entirely or simply said that I am wrong without adducing anything as proof other than the opinion of others, which hardly constitute any sort of objective facts. I believe that the only one of your arguments I have not at one point addressed is the argument about ethnic nationalism, which I have declined to respond to because it is an entirely separate topic, and because I am getting very tired of screaming into the whirlwind.
Triumphant, the reason I can walk away from this thread is not because I don't care about the topics being discussed, but because I don't care about this thread. At the end of the day no one in the real world gives a shit about what is said here. This is just some small insignificant corner of the internet where a handful of very angry people preach to the choir about how terrible Israel is. I have no problem whatsoever walking away from that, and, like reborn, probably will very soon, if for no other reason than I'm tired of repeating myself in arguments with people too dogmatic in their thinking to even consider the validity of the points I make. I truely do care about these issues, and I fully intend to devote myself in some capacity, whether in my career or my free time, to addressing them productively IN THE REAL WORLD.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Triumphant, the reason I can walk away from this thread is not because I don't care about the topics being discussed, but because I don't care about this thread. At the end of the day no one in the real world gives a shit about what is said here. This is just some small insignificant corner of the internet where a handful of very angry people preach to the choir about how terrible Israel is. I have no problem whatsoever walking away from that, and, like reborn, probably will very soon, if for no other reason than I'm tired of repeating myself in arguments with people too dogmatic in their thinking to even consider the validity of the points I make. I truely do care about these issues, and I fully intend to devote myself in some capacity, whether in my career or my free time, to addressing them productively IN THE REAL WORLD.
even if one person in the world gives a shit about what is said here, and perhaps sees things in a different light, then it is infinitely worth it yosi.
kudos to you if you are going to be more active in the real world as you so call it. some of us are already doing that.
And when enough people do enough things, however small they are, then change takes place.
-Howard Zinn
Triumphant, the reason I can walk away from this thread is not because I don't care about the topics being discussed, but because I don't care about this thread. At the end of the day no one in the real world gives a shit about what is said here. This is just some small insignificant corner of the internet where a handful of very angry people preach to the choir about how terrible Israel is. I have no problem whatsoever walking away from that, and, like reborn, probably will very soon, if for no other reason than I'm tired of repeating myself in arguments with people too dogmatic in their thinking to even consider the validity of the points I make. I truely do care about these issues, and I fully intend to devote myself in some capacity, whether in my career or my free time, to addressing them productively IN THE REAL WORLD.
even if one person in the world gives a shit about what is said here, and perhaps sees things in a different light, then it is infinitely worth it yosi.
kudos to you if you are going to be more active in the real world as you so call it. some of us are already doing that.
And when enough people do enough things, however small they are, then change takes place.
-Howard Zinn
That is a very idealistic sentiment. Kudos to you for doing something productive.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Anyways, once the reasonable people leave you get a nice, cozy little space where everyone will agree with you and no one will ever challenge your views. Which is probably why when someone wanders in with a different perspective you respond with such anger and venom, cause you simply can't abide a dissenting voice.
You got him wrong.... B will debate and challenge with anyone who has similar or different perspectives. I have also seen him change his mind during such discussions. So personal attacks are really not necessary.
Yosi, I guess I can see you are Israeli, you will defend Israel (though you may be American, I don't know). Patriotism? Jewness (as you have already mentioned)? I don't know but really, but you seem to live with blinkers. Yes, there are people which have similar views to yours but all in all, you will find the contrary. Don't even respond talking about the couple of PMs you may have received, I'm talking worldwide... look at UN resolutions dealing with Israel and see how nations vote. That gives a good idea of how this issue is seen globally.
I don't feel backed into a corner. I just don't feel like there is much of a point in my continuing to respond to you. You clearly have no interest in a reasonable debate, and I say this not because you disagree with me, but because you consistently ignore most of what I have to say, and misrepresent the rest. You claim that you've blown my arguments out of the water, but in fact most of my arguments you have either ignored entirely or simply said that I am wrong without adducing anything as proof other than the opinion of others, which hardly constitute any sort of objective facts. I believe that the only one of your arguments I have not at one point addressed is the argument about ethnic nationalism, which I have declined to respond to because it is an entirely separate topic, and because I am getting very tired of screaming into the whirlwind.
Actually, I've responded to every one of your posts and addressed every point you've made. As for the 'opinions' of others that I've referred to; I've not simply posted opinions. I've posted detailed arguments from respected intellectuals that rely on the factual record. Though I understand how it would benefit you to steer away from the factual record and rely instead solely on your own drawn out spiels.
These people don't respond to your posts because they know there isn't any point, but they certainly don't agree with you.
+1 ...
At one time there were more people around here who had different perspectives on Israel-Palestine and the debate was a lot richer for it. Unfortunately, many of these people gave up arguing. They are either smarter or less stubborn than me.
how can anyone who is passionate or cares about the situation, no matter what side of the fence they sit on, remain silent? i know i can't.
private messages and the content of those are supposed to be private. it is completely disrespectful to use those in an argument. if people are too hesitant to voice their concerns about an issue in a thread, and would instead, prefer to resort to hiding behind private messages to pat you on your back, then so be it. personally i think they would be a lot better off supporting you in the thread and giving their own insight into the matter. maybe we can all learn something new.
What are they so afraid of? everyone knows Byrnzie is a great debator, but it's such a bullshit excuse that you 'gave up arguing' on the Palestine/Israel issue because there 'isn't any point". if you were passionate and cared enough about the conflict, you would never give up. and if you aren't passionate, then why would you even bother sending some random a PM. no one has to argue unless they want to. what would be so wrong with coming into a thread, voicing your opinion in a reasonable manner and then exiting? At the end of the day, who gives a shit what anyone else thinks?
hiding behind private messages, and using private messages to make a point on a message board when you know you can't disclose the content
=
L to tha AME
Well, a couple of things ... One, I am actually going pretty fuckin' public with my views on people's motives in this thread, which isn't really "hiding behind PMs" or anything to that effect. I stand by my earlier arguments about what some people in these threads really want to hear. Brynzie is highly intelligent and knows his shit. That does not translate into being a good debater. My view is that a good debater can synthesize multiple perspectives and largely stick to the facts. A good debater can account for facts that do not support his or her position, rather than distort them to fit and then resort to attacks on someone's intelligence when this is not successful. When emotional appeals are used, they should not be of the "even an idiot can see this" variety. L to the AME is being so stubborn and rigid that helpful discussion is completely precluded. Its even right there in the posting guidelines: "We can all learn something new". What a novel notion.
Also ... You're right, anyone passionate might stick around and keep arguing. How many responses did yosi and I provide over the last week or two? And yeah, maybe the others who left aren't that passionate. That's their business, I guess.
I said it before and I'll say it again, dnt fuck with Byrnzie. He knows his shit. And isn't it funny how when people have nothing else to say, thay attack you personally or they attack your grammar. Look there's two sides to every story. Everyone has there own opinions on them. Yosi I give u credit in defending your beliefs. I've even sent you two pm telling you that. It's just hard for any of us to believe your beliefs cuz speaking for
myself ONLY, your definition of Zionism is totaly different from what I believe them to be. Dnt hate me for it cuz I dnt hate you for your beliefs. In a perfect world all humans would be able to live free. Free from war, free from hate, just free. And until that day comes, just hold on to that hope that the day in coming. Dnt stop believeing, hoping and fighting for that day. God willing it'll come to all.
Yeah, pretty fucking funny. I think I got called a scumbag and a piece of shit the other night, by someone who had nothing else to say. Anyone remember that?
Such as? 'Jlew' & 'Last Exodus', aka 'The Face', AKA 'Brmlw', AKA 'Encinoman'?'
So let me get this straight ... You felt attacked, which presumably means that you aren't fond of that debate tactic. But you conclude your post by laughing at Jlew? What's the difference here, Brynzie?
I vaguely remember this incident as I was about 13 or so.
I remember someone in my family - although I can't remember exactly who it was - say it was her fault for being 'so stupid' to stand in front of the bulldozer like that... I just remember feeling really ashamed and frustrated by them saying that but not being old enough to talk back to them.
Thanks for the posts, byrnzie... It was compelling to grasp more understanding of this beautiful woman.
I think it takes a LOT of strength and bravery to go there and immerse herself and witness what suppressed people go through every day.
I know (and especially being female) I'm only able to do the things I do (university, work, freedom, expression... love) because I am lucky enough to live in a part of the world where I am free to do so. There's no way any of us can understand the feelings of those who have watched their children, parents, brothers, sisters, etc. die needlessly, or of those who have been beaten, stolen from, subordinated etc.
I don't support suicide bombing but who is to judge their motives when they have experienced so much hatred throughout their lives... I'd say it must be hard to not feel the need to hate others when you are raised in a situation like that.
Such as? 'Jlew' & 'Last Exodus', aka 'The Face', AKA 'Brmlw', AKA 'Encinoman'?'
So let me get this straight ... You felt attacked, which presumably means that you aren't fond of that debate tactic. But you conclude your post by laughing at Jlew? What's the difference here, Brynzie?
There's a reason why these characters aren't around here anymore, and it has nothing to do with them 'deciding to move on'.
I don't support suicide bombing but who is to judge their motives when they have experienced so much hatred throughout their lives... I'd say it must be hard to not feel the need to hate others when you are raised in a situation like that.
Perhaps you drove them off with your persistent negativity and refusal to engage in civil and constructive debate, which involves an actual give and take, and not, as some seem to think, a constant and unending attack on everything and anything that you disagree with.
you couldn't swing if you were hangin' from a palm tree in a hurricane
Perhaps you drove them off with your persistent negativity and refusal to engage in civil and constructive debate, which involves an actual give and take, and not, as some seem to think, a constant and unending attack on everything and anything that you disagree with.
Reborn, Oh I remember as a clear day in southern California. And I'll stand by what I said to you. You joke about a topic so close to me. My aunt married a Palestinian and I know the conflict personally. My positive message of hope I attached at the end WASNT meant for YOU. I could careless about you or your views. Any time kids are killed in any religion or nationality, it's a sad day EVERYWHERE. But to you, you take the time to joke about this or that. There isn't anything funny about death. Leave your comfy home in maple leaf land, go to the middle east, see what's really happening there. Maybe then one day you'll be like holyshit, no wonder why people like Angel, Pepe, and mr popularity winner Byrnzie are so compassionate about this cause. It's funny, someone pmd me and asked me to stop getting into a pissing match with you and I did. Then this morning I see you had to mention me calling you a scumbag again. So I mite as well stick by what I said and I will. You want to have a pissing match with me? Go right ahead. I'll decide how and when to respond to you reborn. I have no problem with yosi or anyone else on this thread EXCEPT YOU. Piss on me all you want. Attack my gramm-AR all you want. Attack my beliefs all you want. Now it's your turn to take a leak.
wow... my best friend's boyfriend works for Cat.
never realised.
good video except the end said the Palestinians may become customers to cat themselves to rebuild Gaza. they haven't been allowed to rebuild!
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Reborn, Oh I remember as a clear day in southern California. And I'll stand by what I said to you. You joke about a topic so close to me. My aunt married a Palestinian and I know the conflict personally. My positive message of hope I attached at the end WASNT meant for YOU. I could careless about you or your views. Any time kids are killed in any religion or nationality, it's a sad day EVERYWHERE. But to you, you take the time to joke about this or that. There isn't anything funny about death. Leave your comfy home in maple leaf land, go to the middle east, see what's really happening there. Maybe then one day you'll be like holyshit, no wonder why people like Angel, Pepe, and mr popularity winner Byrnzie are so compassionate about this cause. It's funny, someone pmd me and asked me to stop getting into a pissing match with you and I did. Then this morning I see you had to mention me calling you a scumbag again. So I mite as well stick by what I said and I will. You want to have a pissing match with me? Go right ahead. I'll decide how and when to respond to you reborn. I have no problem with yosi or anyone else on this thread EXCEPT YOU. Piss on me all you want. Attack my gramm-AR all you want. Attack my beliefs all you want. Now it's your turn to take a leak.
Its my turn to take a leak? I don't follow. In any event, if you won't take back your infantile name-calling, that's fine. I am not going to waste any more time responding to you directly.
Nevertheless, no amount of reading, attendance at conferences, documentary viewing and word of mouth could have prepared me for the reality of the situation here. You just can't imagine it unless you see it - and even then you are always well aware that your experience of it is not at all the reality: what with the difficulties the Israeli army would face if they shot an unarmed US citizen, and with the fact that I have money to buy water when the army destroys wells, and the fact, of course, that I have the option of leaving. Nobody in my family has been shot, driving in their car, by a rocket launcher from a tower at the end of a major street in my hometown. I have a home. I am allowed to go see the ocean. When I leave for school or work I can be relatively certain that there will not be a heavily armed soldier waiting halfway between Mud Bay and downtown Olympia at a checkpoint with the power to decide whether I can go about my business, and whether I can get home again when I'm done.
Nevertheless, no amount of reading, attendance at conferences, documentary viewing and word of mouth could have prepared me for the reality of the situation here. You just can't imagine it unless you see it - and even then you are always well aware that your experience of it is not at all the reality: what with the difficulties the Israeli army would face if they shot an unarmed US citizen, and with the fact that I have money to buy water when the army destroys wells, and the fact, of course, that I have the option of leaving. Nobody in my family has been shot, driving in their car, by a rocket launcher from a tower at the end of a major street in my hometown. I have a home. I am allowed to go see the ocean. When I leave for school or work I can be relatively certain that there will not be a heavily armed soldier waiting halfway between Mud Bay and downtown Olympia at a checkpoint with the power to decide whether I can go about my business, and whether I can get home again when I'm done.
- Rachel
I will pipe up and mention that I do like this particular quote ...
Comments
Let the flaming ensue.
how can anyone who is passionate or cares about the situation, no matter what side of the fence they sit on, remain silent? i know i can't.
private messages and the content of those are supposed to be private. it is completely disrespectful to use those in an argument. if people are too hesitant to voice their concerns about an issue in a thread, and would instead, prefer to resort to hiding behind private messages to pat you on your back, then so be it. personally i think they would be a lot better off supporting you in the thread and giving their own insight into the matter. maybe we can all learn something new.
What are they so afraid of? everyone knows Byrnzie is a great debator, but it's such a bullshit excuse that you 'gave up arguing' on the Palestine/Israel issue because there 'isn't any point". if you were passionate and cared enough about the conflict, you would never give up. and if you aren't passionate, then why would you even bother sending some random a PM. no one has to argue unless they want to. what would be so wrong with coming into a thread, voicing your opinion in a reasonable manner and then exiting? At the end of the day, who gives a shit what anyone else thinks?
hiding behind private messages, and using private messages to make a point on a message board when you know you can't disclose the content
=
L to tha AME
"I feel like I'm witnessing the systematic destruction of a people's ability to survive. It's horrifying...It takes a while to get what's happening here. People here are trying to maintain their lives, trying to be happy. Sometimes I sit down to dinner with people and I realize there is a massive military machine surrounding us, trying to kill the people I'm having dinner with."
- Rachel Corrie
Anti-Israel websites, such as the BBC, The Guardian, Haaretz, http://www.un.org/en/, e.t.c. Because anyone who criticizes Israels illegal occupation is anti-Israel, right?
And what 'fringe quotations' might these be? Care to focus on anything in particular? Perhaps you're referring to the quotation that draws attention to the fact that every year at the U.N 156 countries vote in favour of U.N resolution 242, and are opposed by just the U.S and Israel. Does that qualify as a fringe fact in your scheme of things?
And like I said above, this is pure bullshit. Placing scattered settlements in amongst the Palestinians whose land you've stolen means they're already in harms way. You're just making excuses.
Yes it does. Stop lying.
http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/RESOLU ... penElement
'Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war..'
'Withdrawal of armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict'
The armed conflict being the 1967 conflict. So where's the confusion? It's perfectly unambiguous.
The Apartheid Bantustan, Swiss Cheese proposals at Oslo were rightfully rejected by the Palestinians as they did not provide grounds for a legitimate Palestinian state.
Sure, Gaza is a fucking holiday camp.
http://www.reliefweb.int/rwarchive/rwb. ... enDocument
'Israel maintains its Gaza siege in its full fury, allowing only barely enough food and fuel to enter to stave off mass famine and disease. Such a policy of collective punishment, initiated by Israel to punish Gazans for political developments within the Gaza strip, constitutes a continuing flagrant and massive violation of international humanitarian law as laid down in Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.'
You did challenge my views, and now that you feel backed into a corner you've resorted to personally attacking me. I've blown every one of your arguments out of the water over the past two or three days which is why you're now resorting to this bullshit.
And at what point before today did I respond with anger and venom?
Your smugness really is something to behold.
myself ONLY, your definition of Zionism is totaly different from what I believe them to be. Dnt hate me for it cuz I dnt hate you for your beliefs. In a perfect world all humans would be able to live free. Free from war, free from hate, just free. And until that day comes, just hold on to that hope that the day in coming. Dnt stop believeing, hoping and fighting for that day. God willing it'll come to all.
This has nothing to do with any reluctance to debate with me on here. He was unable to respond to a particular post of mine and so he resorted to attacking my personality instead. You then decided to chime in and support him.
Though I can see how it may benefit some people here to reduce the debate to a lame discussion about 'personalities', 'positions' and 'righteousness'.
Not that you're fooling anyone.
Such as? 'Jlew' & 'Last Exodus', aka 'The Face', AKA 'Brmlw', AKA 'Encinoman'?'
Such as?
Care to provide an example of a 'fringe quotation'? Then when you've provided it, maybe you can enlighten us at to how what it says is false. Thanks. I'm waiting.
Triumphant, the reason I can walk away from this thread is not because I don't care about the topics being discussed, but because I don't care about this thread. At the end of the day no one in the real world gives a shit about what is said here. This is just some small insignificant corner of the internet where a handful of very angry people preach to the choir about how terrible Israel is. I have no problem whatsoever walking away from that, and, like reborn, probably will very soon, if for no other reason than I'm tired of repeating myself in arguments with people too dogmatic in their thinking to even consider the validity of the points I make. I truely do care about these issues, and I fully intend to devote myself in some capacity, whether in my career or my free time, to addressing them productively IN THE REAL WORLD.
kudos to you if you are going to be more active in the real world as you so call it. some of us are already doing that.
And when enough people do enough things, however small they are, then change takes place.
-Howard Zinn
That is a very idealistic sentiment. Kudos to you for doing something productive.
You got him wrong.... B will debate and challenge with anyone who has similar or different perspectives. I have also seen him change his mind during such discussions. So personal attacks are really not necessary.
Yosi, I guess I can see you are Israeli, you will defend Israel (though you may be American, I don't know). Patriotism? Jewness (as you have already mentioned)? I don't know but really, but you seem to live with blinkers. Yes, there are people which have similar views to yours but all in all, you will find the contrary. Don't even respond talking about the couple of PMs you may have received, I'm talking worldwide... look at UN resolutions dealing with Israel and see how nations vote. That gives a good idea of how this issue is seen globally.
Actually, I've responded to every one of your posts and addressed every point you've made. As for the 'opinions' of others that I've referred to; I've not simply posted opinions. I've posted detailed arguments from respected intellectuals that rely on the factual record. Though I understand how it would benefit you to steer away from the factual record and rely instead solely on your own drawn out spiels.
Damn right!:
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/6028713/ (Courtesy of Triumphant Angel)
to my American friends, please don't kill me.
haha.
and indeed, Byrnzie does know his shit.
Well, a couple of things ... One, I am actually going pretty fuckin' public with my views on people's motives in this thread, which isn't really "hiding behind PMs" or anything to that effect. I stand by my earlier arguments about what some people in these threads really want to hear. Brynzie is highly intelligent and knows his shit. That does not translate into being a good debater. My view is that a good debater can synthesize multiple perspectives and largely stick to the facts. A good debater can account for facts that do not support his or her position, rather than distort them to fit and then resort to attacks on someone's intelligence when this is not successful. When emotional appeals are used, they should not be of the "even an idiot can see this" variety. L to the AME is being so stubborn and rigid that helpful discussion is completely precluded. Its even right there in the posting guidelines: "We can all learn something new". What a novel notion.
Also ... You're right, anyone passionate might stick around and keep arguing. How many responses did yosi and I provide over the last week or two? And yeah, maybe the others who left aren't that passionate. That's their business, I guess.
Yeah, pretty fucking funny. I think I got called a scumbag and a piece of shit the other night, by someone who had nothing else to say. Anyone remember that?
So let me get this straight ... You felt attacked, which presumably means that you aren't fond of that debate tactic. But you conclude your post by laughing at Jlew? What's the difference here, Brynzie?
I remember someone in my family - although I can't remember exactly who it was - say it was her fault for being 'so stupid' to stand in front of the bulldozer like that... I just remember feeling really ashamed and frustrated by them saying that but not being old enough to talk back to them.
Thanks for the posts, byrnzie... It was compelling to grasp more understanding of this beautiful woman.
I think it takes a LOT of strength and bravery to go there and immerse herself and witness what suppressed people go through every day.
I know (and especially being female) I'm only able to do the things I do (university, work, freedom, expression... love) because I am lucky enough to live in a part of the world where I am free to do so. There's no way any of us can understand the feelings of those who have watched their children, parents, brothers, sisters, etc. die needlessly, or of those who have been beaten, stolen from, subordinated etc.
I don't support suicide bombing but who is to judge their motives when they have experienced so much hatred throughout their lives... I'd say it must be hard to not feel the need to hate others when you are raised in a situation like that.
There's a reason why these characters aren't around here anymore, and it has nothing to do with them 'deciding to move on'.
Don't mention it.
I remember both when Rachel Corrie was killed and when Tom Hurndall was killed. This was just when I had begun opening my eyes to this issue.
True.
Yep, that's it. You've got me sussed.
wow... my best friend's boyfriend works for Cat.
never realised.
good video except the end said the Palestinians may become customers to cat themselves to rebuild Gaza. they haven't been allowed to rebuild!
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
Its my turn to take a leak? I don't follow. In any event, if you won't take back your infantile name-calling, that's fine. I am not going to waste any more time responding to you directly.
- Rachel
I will pipe up and mention that I do like this particular quote ...