Scientific Illiteracy and "Climategate"

OnTheEdge

Personally I don't believe the earth is going to come to an end the way Al Gore says but I did notice this on MSNBC online page and figured i would share it. Again............this is MSNBC, so take it however you would like.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34392959/ns ... ?GT1=43001

catefrances

Jeanwah wrote:

I was simply pointing out that regardless of agreeing about global warming, it doesn't mean that we can't all respect our environment.
Personally, I think arguing about whether global warming exists is redundant, as it can't be proven. BUT climate change does exist, it has existed, and will continue. With or without us. Simply being aware of what we add to the air and water is simply being concious of our actions.

i agree... arguing about whether global warming exists or not is redundant.

one can be aware and conscious of what one is putting into the atmosphere and still not give a toss. im sure industry knows exactly what its doing. and as for carbom credits... they just shouldnt even enter any negotiation. how is allowing a country/corporation to continue to pollute at extraordinary levels so long as they pay for it in anyones best interests???

Commy

catefrances wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

I was simply pointing out that regardless of agreeing about global warming, it doesn't mean that we can't all respect our environment.
Personally, I think arguing about whether global warming exists is redundant, as it can't be proven. BUT climate change does exist, it has existed, and will continue. With or without us. Simply being aware of what we add to the air and water is simply being concious of our actions.

i agree... arguing about whether global warming exists or not is redundant.

one can be aware and conscious of what one is putting into the atmosphere and still not give a toss. im sure industry knows exactly what its doing. and as for carbom credits... they just shouldnt even enter any negotiation. how is allowing a country/corporation to continue to pollute at extraordinary levels so long as they pay for it in anyones best interests???

profit is the bottom line. it is about the only thing industry responds too. when it becomes cheaper to be cleaner they will.

catefrances

Commy wrote:

catefrances wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

I was simply pointing out that regardless of agreeing about global warming, it doesn't mean that we can't all respect our environment.
Personally, I think arguing about whether global warming exists is redundant, as it can't be proven. BUT climate change does exist, it has existed, and will continue. With or without us. Simply being aware of what we add to the air and water is simply being concious of our actions.

i agree... arguing about whether global warming exists or not is redundant.

one can be aware and conscious of what one is putting into the atmosphere and still not give a toss. im sure industry knows exactly what its doing. and as for carbom credits... they just shouldnt even enter any negotiation. how is allowing a country/corporation to continue to pollute at extraordinary levels so long as they pay for it in anyones best interests???

profit is the bottom line. it is about the only thing industry responds too. when it becomes cheaper to be cleaner they will.

well i just have to wonder how serious my own government is about the 'problem' when for example, there are no guidelines limiting the size of new housing and no alternate energy regulations. we can build these massive houses which will suck energy endlessly. theres no alternate transport systems in place either. people will continue to drive their cars if thats the only choice given them. i truly think its a management problem.

Smellyman

catefrances wrote:

Commy wrote:

catefrances wrote:

i agree... arguing about whether global warming exists or not is redundant.

one can be aware and conscious of what one is putting into the atmosphere and still not give a toss. im sure industry knows exactly what its doing. and as for carbom credits... they just shouldnt even enter any negotiation. how is allowing a country/corporation to continue to pollute at extraordinary levels so long as they pay for it in anyones best interests???

profit is the bottom line. it is about the only thing industry responds too. when it becomes cheaper to be cleaner they will.

well i just have to wonder how serious my own government is about the 'problem' when for example, there are no guidelines limiting the size of new housing and no alternate energy regulations. we can build these massive houses which will suck energy endlessly. theres no alternate transport systems in place either. people will continue to drive their cars if thats the only choice given them. i truly think its a management problem.

Regulation? You commie pinko

catefrances

Smellyman wrote:

Regulation? You commie pinko

oops.... should i have used the more friendly guidelines???

aerial

450 skeptical peer reviewed papers Supporting Skepticism of caused Global Warming
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/11/15/reference-450-skeptical-peer-reviewed-papers/


It’s getting ugly over there, from protesters being arrested by the hundreds, to journalists having their microphones being shut off when asking “inconvenient questions, protesters denying free speech when skeptic Lord Monckton holds a press conference, to hunger strike wizened vacuous talking eco-skeletons.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/


A Scientific agenda for climate policy?
Sonja a. boehmer-christiansen

http://nome.colorado.edu/HARC/Readings/Boehmer.pdf

Jeanwah

catefrances wrote:

Commy wrote:

catefrances wrote:

i agree... arguing about whether global warming exists or not is redundant.

one can be aware and conscious of what one is putting into the atmosphere and still not give a toss. im sure industry knows exactly what its doing. and as for carbom credits... they just shouldnt even enter any negotiation. how is allowing a country/corporation to continue to pollute at extraordinary levels so long as they pay for it in anyones best interests???

profit is the bottom line. it is about the only thing industry responds too. when it becomes cheaper to be cleaner they will.

well i just have to wonder how serious my own government is about the 'problem' when for example, there are no guidelines limiting the size of new housing and no alternate energy regulations. we can build these massive houses which will suck energy endlessly. theres no alternate transport systems in place either. people will continue to drive their cars if thats the only choice given them. i truly think its a management problem.

The reason there's no regulations is because of what commy said, profit exceeds "doing the right thing". Big Oil and Big Coal in Washington actually have more power than than Obama himself, with their sheer size and lobbying power. If they can buy their way into shifting the outlook of the EPA (they did w/ Bush's administration), they can do the same with Obama's if his EPA doesn't stand their ground about actually being about the environment. The last thing the fossil fuel industries want is regulations and an alternate power source entering their arena, lessening their money and power. That's a big reason why alternative energy is taking so long in coming around.

Jeanwah

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/1 ... 89783.html

'ClimateGate' Doesn't Show Global Warming Was Faked, AP Reports

LONDON - E-mails stolen from climate scientists show they stonewalled skeptics and discussed hiding data -- but the messages don't support claims that the science of global warming was faked, according to an exhaustive review by The Associated Press.

The 1,073 e-mails examined by the AP show that scientists harbored private doubts, however slight and fleeting, even as they told the world they were certain about climate change. However, the exchanges don't undercut the vast body of evidence showing the world is warming because of man-made greenhouse gas emissions....

OnTheEdge

Jeanwah wrote:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/12/climate-change-science-no_n_389783.html

'ClimateGate' Doesn't Show Global Warming Was Faked, AP Reports

LONDON - E-mails stolen from climate scientists show they stonewalled skeptics and discussed hiding data -- but the messages don't support claims that the science of global warming was faked, according to an exhaustive review by The Associated Press.

The 1,073 e-mails examined by the AP show that scientists harbored private doubts, however slight and fleeting, even as they told the world they were certain about climate change. However, the exchanges don't undercut the vast body of evidence showing the world is warming because of man-made greenhouse gas emissions....

Hmmmmm, another case of Associated Press fact finding.

catefrances

Jeanwah wrote:

catefrances wrote:

well i just have to wonder how serious my own government is about the 'problem' when for example, there are no guidelines limiting the size of new housing and no alternate energy regulations. we can build these massive houses which will suck energy endlessly. theres no alternate transport systems in place either. people will continue to drive their cars if thats the only choice given them. i truly think its a management problem.

The reason there's no regulations is because of what commy said, profit exceeds "doing the right thing". Big Oil and Big Coal in Washington actually have more power than than Obama himself, with their sheer size and lobbying power. If they can buy their way into shifting the outlook of the EPA (they did w/ Bush's administration), they can do the same with Obama's if his EPA doesn't stand their ground about actually being about the environment. The last thing the fossil fuel industries want is regulations and an alternate power source entering their arena, lessening their money and power. That's a big reason why alternative energy is taking so long in coming around.

oh im very aware of the reasons. im just very disappointed but really hardly surprised that once again my government is paying lip service to something that is touted as the beginning of the end of civlisation. whats going on in copenhagen is as expected... a great big talkfest where evryone looks to be doing something but really arent. its a political move and i dont support my prime minister travelling to the other end of the planet for what is ostensibly a photo op.

i dont know what the answer is but finding cleaner alternate viable energies has got to be a start if only so that we can drink our water and breath the air without barfing up a lung. our most precious resource is water and it is wasted in vast amounts by thsoe who can afford to waste it whilst others basically have none. surely somewhere in this world someone has the resources and technology so that everyone gets their fair share. i dont need a green lawn and flowers in my garden if somewhere children are dying of thirst and malnutrtion.

polaris_x

aerial wrote:

How refreshing it is to see there are a few others on here beside myself and prfctlefts
that get it........Thanks RoughMix & Battan1120 love your post....just hope it sinks in..

you guys DON"T get it ... none of you skeptics can argue the case against it ... all you do is post links from propaganda websites that time and time again get proven to be bullshit ... if you want to be a skeptic - that's fine but the fact that you know absolutely nothing about the science just shows that you are a sheep to lobbyists and PR firms that feed you those lies ...

i've been on this board and these threads all go the same way ... someone posts something they read from some think tank website and we go back and forth and it gets proven that they are lies and the OP goes silent ... see prfctlefts "BUSTED" thread ... it ALWAYS ends up the same way ...

what is truly sad is that you guys aren't making an honest effort to educate yourself on the science - just googling articles that support your biased opinions ...

anyhoo - you guys hate gov'ts ... too bad you didn't put the same effort in challenging big multi-antional corporations like the oil industry ... they are the ones truly fucking you over ... with the help of gov't of course

polaris_x

catefrances wrote:

hmmmmm i dont really know what to say about climate change except to say our climate has changed before and it will do say again with or without us.are humans escallating that change??? it would be a fool that thinks we have NO impact upon the planet, but is it as bad as were told? will the maldives sink beneath the pristine waters of the indian ocean??? not likely within our lifetimes. im not gonna be feared into believing that our planet is in dire threat of death. fear keeps us in line and i refuse to stand in a queue thats going nowhere.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/slide ... 16F0D66311

already islands are evacuating ... people who have lived their entire lives are now forced to find refuge elsewhere ...

i'm not sure where you live but i seem to think it's OZ ... did the long drought australia encounter not affect someone you know ...

it takes YEARS for us to feel the effects of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere - the extreme weather happening now is from emissions decades ago - it's only gonna get worse ... and as we turn a blind eye to the overwhelming science and evidence and show no true concern for those who have already suffered - all we are doing is bringing it one step closer to our doorstep ...

OnTheEdge

polaris_x wrote:

catefrances wrote:

hmmmmm i dont really know what to say about climate change except to say our climate has changed before and it will do say again with or without us.are humans escallating that change??? it would be a fool that thinks we have NO impact upon the planet, but is it as bad as were told? will the maldives sink beneath the pristine waters of the indian ocean??? not likely within our lifetimes. im not gonna be feared into believing that our planet is in dire threat of death. fear keeps us in line and i refuse to stand in a queue thats going nowhere.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/slide ... 16F0D66311

already islands are evacuating ... people who have lived their entire lives are now forced to find refuge elsewhere ...

i'm not sure where you live but i seem to think it's OZ ... did the long drought australia encounter not affect someone you know ...

it takes YEARS for us to feel the effects of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere - the extreme weather happening now is from emissions decades ago - it's only gonna get worse ... and as we turn a blind eye to the overwhelming science and evidence and show no true concern for those who have already suffered - all we are doing is bringing it one step closer to our doorstep ...

The only problem here is that all of the overwhelming science and evidence you are talking about has been tainted with, and the actual documents have either been thrown away or destroyed. Common sense evidence says that in the last ten years the earths atmosphere has actually cooled. I'm 38 years old and I think the earth should have died twice already and we were supposed to run out of oil 10 years ago.

polaris_x

mb262200 wrote:

The only problem here is that all of the overwhelming science and evidence you are talking about has been tainted with, and the actual documents have either been thrown away or destroyed. Common sense evidence says that in the last ten years the earths atmosphere has actually cooled. I'm 38 years old and I think the earth should have died twice already and we were supposed to run out of oil 10 years ago.

unfortunately for all of us - nothing you say is true (except likely your age) ... you will not have any credible source to prove otherwise - i know this for a fact because others have tried only to be proven to post links to uncredible websites ... you too will likely point to some article that shows that one year was cooler than the year before and therefore prove your cooling ... but the reality is the last 10 years have been the warmest on record ...

common sense would also tell you that the weather is fucked - it's -50 in some parts of canada now, much of the phillipines was under water this fall, it goes on and on ... and if you are going to refer to -50 as the earth cooling - all you are doing is showing you don't really understand the issue at all ...

aerial

polaris_x wrote:

mb262200 wrote:

The only problem here is that all of the overwhelming science and evidence you are talking about has been tainted with, and the actual documents have either been thrown away or destroyed. Common sense evidence says that in the last ten years the earths atmosphere has actually cooled. I'm 38 years old and I think the earth should have died twice already and we were supposed to run out of oil 10 years ago.

unfortunately for all of us - nothing you say is true (except likely your age) ... you will not have any credible source to prove otherwise - i know this for a fact because others have tried only to be proven to post links to uncredible websites ... you too will likely point to some article that shows that one year was cooler than the year before and therefore prove your cooling ... but the reality is the last 10 years have been the warmest on record ...

common sense would also tell you that the weather is fucked - it's -50 in some parts of canada now, much of the phillipines was under water this fall, it goes on and on ... and if you are going to refer to -50 as the earth cooling - all you are doing is showing you don't really understand the issue at all ...

First are you a scientist?
Second if these Leaders are genuinely concerned about the issue why would they create vast amounts of the pollution they are so concerned with?

Smellyman

aerial wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

mb262200 wrote:

The only problem here is that all of the overwhelming science and evidence you are talking about has been tainted with, and the actual documents have either been thrown away or destroyed. Common sense evidence says that in the last ten years the earths atmosphere has actually cooled. I'm 38 years old and I think the earth should have died twice already and we were supposed to run out of oil 10 years ago.

unfortunately for all of us - nothing you say is true (except likely your age) ... you will not have any credible source to prove otherwise - i know this for a fact because others have tried only to be proven to post links to uncredible websites ... you too will likely point to some article that shows that one year was cooler than the year before and therefore prove your cooling ... but the reality is the last 10 years have been the warmest on record ...

common sense would also tell you that the weather is fucked - it's -50 in some parts of canada now, much of the phillipines was under water this fall, it goes on and on ... and if you are going to refer to -50 as the earth cooling - all you are doing is showing you don't really understand the issue at all ...

First are you a scientist?
Second if these Leaders are genuinely concerned about the issue why would they create vast amounts of the pollution they are so concerned with?

even if he was a scientist, you have proven you don't believe them either.

catefrances

polaris_x wrote:

catefrances wrote:

hmmmmm i dont really know what to say about climate change except to say our climate has changed before and it will do say again with or without us.are humans escallating that change??? it would be a fool that thinks we have NO impact upon the planet, but is it as bad as were told? will the maldives sink beneath the pristine waters of the indian ocean??? not likely within our lifetimes. im not gonna be feared into believing that our planet is in dire threat of death. fear keeps us in line and i refuse to stand in a queue thats going nowhere.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/slide ... 16F0D66311

already islands are evacuating ... people who have lived their entire lives are now forced to find refuge elsewhere ...

i'm not sure where you live but i seem to think it's OZ ... did the long drought australia encounter not affect someone you know ...

it takes YEARS for us to feel the effects of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere - the extreme weather happening now is from emissions decades ago - it's only gonna get worse ... and as we turn a blind eye to the overwhelming science and evidence and show no true concern for those who have already suffered - all we are doing is bringing it one step closer to our doorstep ...

no i know noone who was affected by the drought. but then again i live in the biggest city in the country so why would i?? australia is a dry continent. droughts are part of the cycle. they come they go always have always will.


what extreme weather??? we have enough trouble predicting the weather next week and youre gonna sit there and tell me weve got a lock on future climate patterns??

im not denying a change in the climate, im just not gonna jump on the freaked out bandwagon that tells me were all doomed. the earth is how old??? has there been 'catastrophic' climate change before in her history?? im thinking yes.. so what were perhaps in the middle of here is a natural climatic cycle. could we cut pollution? of course we could. and we should. but until someone grabs the situation by the balls and does something absolutely constructive were all gonna continue to piss in the wind, choose sides and call each other playground names.

OutOfBreath

Just a few comments:

catefrances wrote:

what extreme weather??? we have enough trouble predicting the weather next week and youre gonna sit there and tell me weve got a lock on future climate patterns??

The two are actually not that related. It's like judging traffic on the roads vs knowing where that 1 particular individual is heading. You can know where the traffic flows, where it gets held up and so forth pretty accurately, although it's pretty hard to know where that red Ford is heading and whether it will get held up.

im not denying a change in the climate, im just not gonna jump on the freaked out bandwagon that tells me were all doomed. the earth is how old??? has there been 'catastrophic' climate change before in her history?? im thinking yes.. so what were perhaps in the middle of here is a natural climatic cycle. could we cut pollution? of course we could. and we should. but until someone grabs the situation by the balls and does something absolutely constructive were all gonna continue to piss in the wind, choose sides and call each other playground names.

"Natural climate changes" have killed off large portions of the planet's life before, so that's a weak argument not to worry. Then again the "We're all doomed" crowd can be a bit on the much side. We won't all die unless we do someting, but many will, and societal consequences of stuff like mass migration is anyone's guess. So since it seems we are influencing this, we should act to stop it. However, i find it unlikely to get much off the ground until things get desperate, unfortunately.

Peace
Dan

polaris_x

aerial wrote:

First are you a scientist?
Second if these Leaders are genuinely concerned about the issue why would they create vast amounts of the pollution they are so concerned with?

no ... but my degree is in environmental science and worked for two climate centres years ago ... but that is irrelevant as it has no bearing on my points ... you don't have to be a scientist - you just have to educate yourself on the science ...

global leaders have different agendas - i have said throughout that these guys deal more with the politics more than anything ... having said that - the main reason why they can't come to any agreement is simply because people continue to be ignorant to the issue and soak up lies and propaganda ...

yes - they should at least show some face to the topic by cutting their pollution but at the end of the day - it doesn't change the fact that many of the poor and undeveloped are suffering from the serious impacts of climate change and they will continue to do so ...