Time For A Legitimate 3rd Party in the US?

Pepe Silvia

arthurdent wrote:

we already have 2 fucked up parties. what makes you think a third will be any improvement? We just need a better class of voter, that's all.

or people holding their elected representatives accountable. we make ourselves victims by acting like all we can do is cast a vote every election cycle while telling ourselves not much will change but at least it's not the other guy....voting out of fear. there's a great interview of Ralph Nader where he talks about being a citizen in a democracy requires far more than just voting every few years and he's right. we can blame bush for lying or obama lying all we want but until we demand more nothing will change. what happened to all the rhetoric of yes, we can! ? or hope or change? before the election i hoped obama winning would lead to what the OP is asking but sadly i still see people making the same excuses they didn't accept from bush supporters. and before anyone goes off i am NOT saying this is indicative of every single obama supporter.

the campaigns are about PR, marketing and $, the debates are all but scripted with questions decided beforehand and anyone else excluded, empty promises and lying are accepted parts of politics and they know they have their base. it's a complete scam, american idol is more legit, and yet the majority continue to play along and support it

Pepe Silvia

JD Sal wrote:

he still stands wrote:

arthurdent wrote:

we already have 2 fucked up parties. what makes you think a third will be any improvement? We just need a better class of voter, that's all.

Yeah and I guess I was echoing that sentiment when I mentioned that the libertarian and green parties aren't legitimate options. Existing democratic and republican candidates are viable and on the ballot (Dennis Kucinich, Ron Paul) but as you say, the voters will never support them.

Why is that? When I told my parents about Kucinich a few years ago they were like "why didn't we know about him?" He aligns perfectly with their political opinion, and I think the same would be true for many others who either don't know about him (because the media ignores him) or think he believes in aliens (because that is the only thing the media has ever brought forth about him).

Blame the media and uneducated voters. Obama is labeled a socialist, yet he's not even a liberal. People like Nader and Kucinich will never be viable candidates in modern society because the media portrays them as left-wing buffoons, although their ideas are not really that radical.

This country needs a left wing and a progressive party. There really isn’t a balance in this country, and it really doesn’t represent the people. I thought Nader had a great chance to really build up the Green party over the last decade plus, but he seems to just disappear and reappear every 4 years when there's an election.

during the primaries someone did a poll of where voters stood and matched them with the candidates...the majority were more in line with Kucinich and Gravel but when it's their turn in the debate they are asked a question about aliens or when george stepanapolous interviewed them he would repeatedly say things like "you know you have no chance of winning, right? you realize you're a fringe candidate, don't you?...."

Nader doesn't disappear, he speaks, gives interviews, helps other causes like November5.org ....he gives a great interview on what the PEOPLE need to do. we can't just pass all the blame to the politicians, a lot of it is our own for supporting them and letting them get away with it. we're supposed to be their bosses but all we do is vote for the party we dislike the least and then complain to each other

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/200 ... s-soapbox/

JD Sal

polaris_x wrote:

JD Sal wrote:

Blame the media and uneducated voters. Obama is labeled a socialist, yet he's not even a liberal. People like Nader and Kucinich will never be viable candidates in modern society because the media portrays them as left-wing buffoons, although their ideas are not really that radical.

This country needs a left wing and a progressive party. There really isn’t a balance in this country, and it really doesn’t represent the people. I thought Nader had a great chance to really build up the Green party over the last decade plus, but he seems to just disappear and reappear every 4 years when there's an election.

america is not a socialistic country ... it's a me-first country ... nothing wrong with that ... but that is why the two main parties are centre and right ... there is nothing "left or socialist" about obama ...

in order for "progressive" type societies to work - most people have to subscribe to that ... that is not the case in america ...

But that's just it (see Pepe's post below), a majority of Americans probably would vote for people like Kucinich if he wasn't written off as a left wing nut job by the media. People don't have the time or interest in researching candidates voting records and what they stand for. They're too lazy and settle for what the media spoon feeds them.

Pepe Silvia wrote:

during the primaries someone did a poll of where voters stood and matched them with the candidates...the majority were more in line with Kucinich and Gravel but when it's their turn in the debate they are asked a question about aliens or when george stepanapolous interviewed them he would repeatedly say things like "you know you have no chance of winning, right? you realize you're a fringe candidate, don't you?...."

Nader doesn't disappear, he speaks, gives interviews, helps other causes like November5.org ....he gives a great interview on what the PEOPLE need to do. we can't just pass all the blame to the politicians, a lot of it is our own for supporting them and letting them get away with it. we're supposed to be their bosses but all we do is vote for the party we dislike the least and then complain to each other

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/200 ... s-soapbox/

I can't access the article at work, but I'll check it out later tonight when I get home. And Nader is a ghost during non-election time as far as I'm concerned. Is he spending considerable time trying to loosen a lot of the bullshit ballot restrictions for 3rd party candidates? Is he out there in the mainstream media pushing his agenda and building up the Green party? I know he's "active," but I don't see him much, if at all.

beachdweller

don't see how a 3rd party will change anything since the majority of voting eligible citizens in the U.S. aren't informed as well as they should be when they vote, IMO

a 3rd party means another place for sheep to blindly follow, let's actually focus on fixing what we have, in stead of expanding the problem. I know many feel the 3rd party is part of fixing things, I don't agree, but if a 3rd party emerges, I don't have a problem with that either.

Jeanwah

Pepe Silvia wrote:

JD Sal wrote:

he still stands wrote:

Why is that? When I told my parents about Kucinich a few years ago they were like "why didn't we know about him?" He aligns perfectly with their political opinion, and I think the same would be true for many others who either don't know about him (because the media ignores him) or think he believes in aliens (because that is the only thing the media has ever brought forth about him).

Blame the media and uneducated voters. Obama is labeled a socialist, yet he's not even a liberal. People like Nader and Kucinich will never be viable candidates in modern society because the media portrays them as left-wing buffoons, although their ideas are not really that radical.

during the primaries someone did a poll of where voters stood and matched them with the candidates...the majority were more in line with Kucinich and Gravel but when it's their turn in the debate they are asked a question about aliens or when george stepanapolous interviewed them he would repeatedly say things like "you know you have no chance of winning, right? you realize you're a fringe candidate, don't you?...."

I can't feel sorry for any voter who relys on the media to deliver them the information necessary to make an educated vote. He Still Stands - you need to tell your parents to research better than just watching what manipulative reporters ask the candidates and to consider the fluff involved when it comes to 'interviewing' electoral candidates. Kucinich was given a low blow on purpose by the media, and we should be smarter than to fall for it. The sad thing is that Kucinich is on the Dem ticket, when he's nothing like the other Dems. He should create his own 3rd party.

Pepe Silvia

he still stands wrote:

soulsinging wrote:

they had the fires burning and pitchforks out before he talked about escalation. hell, he's escalated forces before this and he said all campaign that's exactly what he was going to do. yet you act betrayed. :roll: the left was maybe 1 week behind the right in ripping him a new one. 'he's too compromising on health care, his bailouts aren't enough, etc'

Really? I didn't notice. Most of the liberals that I see (my wife and her friends) were fairly confident that eventually he'd wind down Iraq and Afghanistan (up until last month or so) and didn't lose confidence in him until very recently. I don't follow the shit closely enough to know if he campaigned for "an escalation in Afghantistan" but I sure as hell don't remember it...

And I don't feel "betrayed", as you put it, because I didn't vote for him.

it was always on his website that he'd redeploy troops to Afghanistan while he campaigned. although he did have this gem to say about Iraq while campaigning:

"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama October 27, 2007

Pepe Silvia

JD Sal wrote:

polaris_x wrote:

JD Sal wrote:

Blame the media and uneducated voters. Obama is labeled a socialist, yet he's not even a liberal. People like Nader and Kucinich will never be viable candidates in modern society because the media portrays them as left-wing buffoons, although their ideas are not really that radical.

This country needs a left wing and a progressive party. There really isn’t a balance in this country, and it really doesn’t represent the people. I thought Nader had a great chance to really build up the Green party over the last decade plus, but he seems to just disappear and reappear every 4 years when there's an election.

america is not a socialistic country ... it's a me-first country ... nothing wrong with that ... but that is why the two main parties are centre and right ... there is nothing "left or socialist" about obama ...

in order for "progressive" type societies to work - most people have to subscribe to that ... that is not the case in america ...

But that's just it (see Pepe's post below), a majority of Americans probably would vote for people like Kucinich if he wasn't written off as a left wing nut job by the media. People don't have the time or interest in researching candidates voting records and what they stand for. They're too lazy and settle for what the media spoon feeds them.

Pepe Silvia wrote:

during the primaries someone did a poll of where voters stood and matched them with the candidates...the majority were more in line with Kucinich and Gravel but when it's their turn in the debate they are asked a question about aliens or when george stepanapolous interviewed them he would repeatedly say things like "you know you have no chance of winning, right? you realize you're a fringe candidate, don't you?...."

Nader doesn't disappear, he speaks, gives interviews, helps other causes like November5.org ....he gives a great interview on what the PEOPLE need to do. we can't just pass all the blame to the politicians, a lot of it is our own for supporting them and letting them get away with it. we're supposed to be their bosses but all we do is vote for the party we dislike the least and then complain to each other

http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/200 ... s-soapbox/

I can't access the article at work, but I'll check it out later tonight when I get home. And Nader is a ghost during non-election time as far as I'm concerned. Is he spending considerable time trying to loosen a lot of the bullshit ballot restrictions for 3rd party candidates? Is he out there in the mainstream media pushing his agenda and building up the Green party? I know he's "active," but I don't see him much, if at all.

i think mainly he has been working with november5.org and he just wrote a book. as far as ballot restrictions because of their numbers last election in several states the party he ran on (he was on the ballot for different parties in different states) won't have to go through the great hurdles to get on the ballots for the election last month and on depending on the state. he's not a ghost, he just doesn't get as much coverage. i've seen lots of articles and interviews with him since the election

mca47

I'm all for a 3rd, hell...or as many parties as it takes.

That said, America is a stupid country so it's probably never going to happen in my lifetime.

TriumphantAngel

Pepe Silvia wrote:

it was always on his website that he'd redeploy troops to Afghanistan while he campaigned. although he did have this gem to say about Iraq while campaigning:

"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama October 27, 2007

i wonder how many people have read your quote above from Obama, feigned 'outrage', and then moved on to the next thread.

be proactive, rather than reactive.
you can write to the Obama Administration at http://www.whitehouse.gov and convey your displeasure there.

Jeanwah

TriumphantAngel wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

it was always on his website that he'd redeploy troops to Afghanistan while he campaigned. although he did have this gem to say about Iraq while campaigning:

"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama October 27, 2007

i wonder how many people have read your quote above from Obama, feigned 'outrage', and then moved on to the next thread.

be proactive, rather than reactive.
you can write to the Obama Administration at http://www.whitehouse.gov and convey your displeasure there.

Fantastic! I admit, I'm guilty of reading that, and feeling depressed afterward. I'm writing right now, as I do love to bug the shit out of politicians. (I do, really.)

TriumphantAngel

Jeanwah wrote:

TriumphantAngel wrote:

Pepe Silvia wrote:

it was always on his website that he'd redeploy troops to Afghanistan while he campaigned. although he did have this gem to say about Iraq while campaigning:

"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama October 27, 2007

i wonder how many people have read your quote above from Obama, feigned 'outrage', and then moved on to the next thread.

be proactive, rather than reactive.
you can write to the Obama Administration at http://www.whitehouse.gov and convey your displeasure there.

Fantastic! I admit, I'm guilty of reading that, and feeling depressed afterward. I'm writing right now, as I do love to bug the shit out of politicians. (I do, really.)

right on jeanwah. we must speak out.
like howard zinn said, small acts, when multiplied by millions of people, can transform the world.

polaris_x

JD Sal wrote:

But that's just it (see Pepe's post below), a majority of Americans probably would vote for people like Kucinich if he wasn't written off as a left wing nut job by the media. People don't have the time or interest in researching candidates voting records and what they stand for. They're too lazy and settle for what the media spoon feeds them.

although i am just a canuck - i do spend lots of time down in the states and i am pretty sure the populace as a whole are not progressives ... sure, there is probably max 30% that could stand to have kucinich in office but the other 70% would probably revolt (which would at least show that people care) ... between the apathetic, the selfish and the ignorant - those are 3 major barriers to a progressive society ...

and for the peeps that think this is a "i hate US" rant - canada is moving in the exact same direction

Jeanwah

polaris_x wrote:

JD Sal wrote:

But that's just it (see Pepe's post below), a majority of Americans probably would vote for people like Kucinich if he wasn't written off as a left wing nut job by the media. People don't have the time or interest in researching candidates voting records and what they stand for. They're too lazy and settle for what the media spoon feeds them.

although i am just a canuck - i do spend lots of time down in the states and i am pretty sure the populace as a whole are not progressives ... sure, there is probably max 30% that could stand to have kucinich in office but the other 70% would probably revolt (which would at least show that people care) ... between the apathetic, the selfish and the ignorant - those are 3 major barriers to a progressive society ...

and for the peeps that think this is a "i hate US" rant - canada is moving in the exact same direction

I think you're right, not the majority are progressives (unfortunately, we sure could use some more people thinking this way), but to believe that people would actually revolt against someone like Kucinich in office? That would mean they'd have to miss American Idol and Fox News...it would just never happen. The entertainment box and just not caring is of utmost importance to this stereotype.