Time For A Legitimate 3rd Party in the US?
he still stands
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Obama has lost support from nearly everybody except a few left-leaning moderates with the announcement of an escalation of the war in Afghanistan. He has done very little as hoped for by his liberal base and the majority of conservatives are still calling him a socialist. This massive divide in perception of political reality is absolutely staggering to me and I can't remember there ever being such a polarized yet consenting opinion of a president. Quite the paradox, eh?
Similarly, the Republican Party has lost many followers during the 8-year reign of Fuhrer Bush. It seems as though Palin, Beck, and Hannity are damaging the party too as many people are sick and tired of the sensationalist propaganda targeted for the malleable-brained neo-conservative audience. More and more, people are self-described "independents" and are becoming apathetic in regards to political policy.
Sure, there remain the fervent believers in the liberal and conservative parties, but as their leaders' voices grow louder and shriller, the thoughtful members of each party begin to fall off as the veil is lifted and conflicting voices are all exposed as rhetoric.
With the increase in citizens who have don't have a political philosophy in the mainstream that speaks to them, I think it is time for a legitimate 3rd party to rise up and become a viable choice for the "rest of us." What are our options? Their seems to be a social stigma with the libertarian party which has given the impression to many that it is run by a bunch of guys with pony-tails wearing suit coats that smell of cigars and brandy and a joint behind their ear. The green party likely will never gain traction simply because people will always be selfish and while the environment remains a priority, the personal well-being of the majority is the higher priority for the thoughtless who are stuck in the competitive anal-territorial circuit of reality.
So, the label of minor parties may be an obstacle to overcome because people can't open up their little primate brains. We are trapped in a self-defeating system of government and economy (based on forever increasing consumption/production of finite resources) but we are too stupid to think of an alternative, or maybe it is that we are too weak and spineless to do what is fundamentally responsible of the citizens of any country, which is to revolt. Either way, it is time for a legitimate 3rd party with honest ideals to step up and gain traction, but I don't see it ever happening because there is too much at stake for the democratic and republican monopoly.
Similarly, the Republican Party has lost many followers during the 8-year reign of Fuhrer Bush. It seems as though Palin, Beck, and Hannity are damaging the party too as many people are sick and tired of the sensationalist propaganda targeted for the malleable-brained neo-conservative audience. More and more, people are self-described "independents" and are becoming apathetic in regards to political policy.
Sure, there remain the fervent believers in the liberal and conservative parties, but as their leaders' voices grow louder and shriller, the thoughtful members of each party begin to fall off as the veil is lifted and conflicting voices are all exposed as rhetoric.
With the increase in citizens who have don't have a political philosophy in the mainstream that speaks to them, I think it is time for a legitimate 3rd party to rise up and become a viable choice for the "rest of us." What are our options? Their seems to be a social stigma with the libertarian party which has given the impression to many that it is run by a bunch of guys with pony-tails wearing suit coats that smell of cigars and brandy and a joint behind their ear. The green party likely will never gain traction simply because people will always be selfish and while the environment remains a priority, the personal well-being of the majority is the higher priority for the thoughtless who are stuck in the competitive anal-territorial circuit of reality.
So, the label of minor parties may be an obstacle to overcome because people can't open up their little primate brains. We are trapped in a self-defeating system of government and economy (based on forever increasing consumption/production of finite resources) but we are too stupid to think of an alternative, or maybe it is that we are too weak and spineless to do what is fundamentally responsible of the citizens of any country, which is to revolt. Either way, it is time for a legitimate 3rd party with honest ideals to step up and gain traction, but I don't see it ever happening because there is too much at stake for the democratic and republican monopoly.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
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Penn Jillette is a Libertarian and that describes him perfectly
edit: Penn claims to have never smoked pot????
If I had to label myself it would be as a "sympathetic Libertarian." I support a minimalist government, but since humans can't take care of each other since we stopped living in tribes, one of the functions of the government has to be supporting those in need. Unfortunately, it seems that most Libertarians don't feel the same way, which is why I added the word "sympathetic."
Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
Yeah and I guess I was echoing that sentiment when I mentioned that the libertarian and green parties aren't legitimate options. Existing democratic and republican candidates are viable and on the ballot (Dennis Kucinich, Ron Paul) but as you say, the voters will never support them.
Why is that? When I told my parents about Kucinich a few years ago they were like "why didn't we know about him?" He aligns perfectly with their political opinion, and I think the same would be true for many others who either don't know about him (because the media ignores him) or think he believes in aliens (because that is the only thing the media has ever brought forth about him).
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Ron Paul, and to a lesser degree Kucinich, are symptoms of the problem... not solutions to the problem. Paul and his mindless followers are often lacking in critical thinking skills, which is why so many people find them so damn annoying.
Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
nope. retarded idiots should not be allowed anywhere near a microphone. The only thing they accomplish is attracting more idiots to their retarded causes.
Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
I'm unclear as to whether or not you would support government supporting welfare programs?
Also, I still don't understand why people think Libertarians are so callous? When it comes to taking care of people, I believe that they are quite the opposite. I know I view it as a dis-service to the poor of this country (and elsewhere) by trusting government to see to the task of getting them the help they need-- especially since our tax dollars end up in giant slush funds that can be used for just about anything, including blowing people up on the other side of the world. What kind of charity work is that?
If charitable organizations had more support directly from their members and the community at large, they would have an easier time accomplishing their mission. Lifting a good deal of the tax burden on the working class of this country would be a start.
I live in a very rough city and own property there. I get taxed to death to do it-- still, I realize that the best way to protect myself, my family, and my property is to keep people being fed, clothed, and with shelter. (A big badass dog and a gun would rank 2nd and 3rd
If you were to take government out of "taking care" of people tomorrow, there would be a very obvious void to fill by the people, either out of the goodness out of their hearts, or even for pragmatic reasons. It would also take some effort by the impoverished to try and take care of themselves. It's the right thing to do, as well as the smart thing to do. It's having the bleeding heart, as a result of a well functioning brain or vice-versa.
Overall, Libertarians think this is a better mousetrap, with some very clearly defined lines, unlike our current system which has people falsely reliant on government to take care of them, in many cases to find out that they don't "qualify" for care.
The problem is that higher taxes have people like myself working more and more hours with diminishing results.
Do you think Paul and Kucinich are too idealistic?
Who would you like to see as the two (or more) main candidates in a presidential election?
So, who gets to judge?
*NYC 9/28/96 *NYC 9/29/96 *NJ 9/8/98 (front row "may i play drums with you")
*MSG 9/10/98 (backstage) *MSG 9/11/98 (backstage)
*Jones Beach 8/23/00 *Jones Beach 8/24/00 *Jones Beach 8/25/00
*Mansfield 8/29/00 *Mansfield 8/30/00 *Nassau 4/30/03 *Nissan VA 7/1/03
*Borgata 10/1/05 *Camden 5/27/06 *Camden 5/28/06 *DC 5/30/06
*VA Beach 6/17/08 *DC 6/22/08 *MSG 6/24/08 (backstage) *MSG 6/25/08
*EV DC 8/17/08 *EV Baltimore 6/15/09 *Philly 10/31/09
*Bristow VA 5/13/10 *MSG 5/20/10 *MSG 5/21/10
Yeah I support welfare programs... "one of the functions of the government has to be supporting those in need" which is why I call myself a "sympathetic" libertarian.
The libertarians that I have met aren't callous but they seem to think that the "welfare state" is the primary reason for their tax burden. Most are borderline social darwinists. But then again, I've met maybe a dozen or so in my life, so that is a relatively small sample size and might not be an accurate depiction of the "average" liberatarian.
I don't think most people would voluntarily participate in a community welfare system, and I don't see any evidence of that ever changing. That isn't to say that I wouldn't personally participate... I help out whereever possible already.
Otherwise, I think we are on the same page.
arthrudent! Who else?
not really, it's something i noticed years ago and the reason i think republicans are generally more successful than dems. they will circle the wagons, even around their embarrassing members. even though dubya was a moron, they stood by him becos he was their guy on their team and that was good enough becos they hate the other team so much. the dems/left will turn on their own as quickly as the oppositions becos they're too whiny and conciliatory. thus, im not remotely surprised that they've wasted no time in skewering obama for not being hugo chavez.
Blame the media and uneducated voters. Obama is labeled a socialist, yet he's not even a liberal. People like Nader and Kucinich will never be viable candidates in modern society because the media portrays them as left-wing buffoons, although their ideas are not really that radical.
This country needs a left wing and a progressive party. There really isn’t a balance in this country, and it really doesn’t represent the people. I thought Nader had a great chance to really build up the Green party over the last decade plus, but he seems to just disappear and reappear every 4 years when there's an election.
I don't know that liberals (and independents) are skewering him for "not being hugo chavez" but because he is escalating an unwinnable war. Nothing "socialist" with putting an end to needless death and suffering.
they had the fires burning and pitchforks out before he talked about escalation. hell, he's escalated forces before this and he said all campaign that's exactly what he was going to do. yet you act betrayed. :roll: the left was maybe 1 week behind the right in ripping him a new one. 'he's too compromising on health care, his bailouts aren't enough, etc'
Really? I didn't notice. Most of the liberals that I see (my wife and her friends) were fairly confident that eventually he'd wind down Iraq and Afghanistan (up until last month or so) and didn't lose confidence in him until very recently. I don't follow the shit closely enough to know if he campaigned for "an escalation in Afghantistan" but I sure as hell don't remember it...
And I don't feel "betrayed", as you put it, because I didn't vote for him.
america is not a socialistic country ... it's a me-first country ... nothing wrong with that ... but that is why the two main parties are centre and right ... there is nothing "left or socialist" about obama ...
in order for "progressive" type societies to work - most people have to subscribe to that ... that is not the case in america ...
or people holding their elected representatives accountable. we make ourselves victims by acting like all we can do is cast a vote every election cycle while telling ourselves not much will change but at least it's not the other guy....voting out of fear. there's a great interview of Ralph Nader where he talks about being a citizen in a democracy requires far more than just voting every few years and he's right. we can blame bush for lying or obama lying all we want but until we demand more nothing will change. what happened to all the rhetoric of yes, we can! ? or hope or change? before the election i hoped obama winning would lead to what the OP is asking but sadly i still see people making the same excuses they didn't accept from bush supporters. and before anyone goes off i am NOT saying this is indicative of every single obama supporter.
the campaigns are about PR, marketing and $, the debates are all but scripted with questions decided beforehand and anyone else excluded, empty promises and lying are accepted parts of politics and they know they have their base. it's a complete scam, american idol is more legit, and yet the majority continue to play along and support it
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
during the primaries someone did a poll of where voters stood and matched them with the candidates...the majority were more in line with Kucinich and Gravel but when it's their turn in the debate they are asked a question about aliens or when george stepanapolous interviewed them he would repeatedly say things like "you know you have no chance of winning, right? you realize you're a fringe candidate, don't you?...."
Nader doesn't disappear, he speaks, gives interviews, helps other causes like November5.org ....he gives a great interview on what the PEOPLE need to do. we can't just pass all the blame to the politicians, a lot of it is our own for supporting them and letting them get away with it. we're supposed to be their bosses but all we do is vote for the party we dislike the least and then complain to each other
http://dandelionsalad.wordpress.com/200 ... s-soapbox/
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
But that's just it (see Pepe's post below), a majority of Americans probably would vote for people like Kucinich if he wasn't written off as a left wing nut job by the media. People don't have the time or interest in researching candidates voting records and what they stand for. They're too lazy and settle for what the media spoon feeds them.
I can't access the article at work, but I'll check it out later tonight when I get home. And Nader is a ghost during non-election time as far as I'm concerned. Is he spending considerable time trying to loosen a lot of the bullshit ballot restrictions for 3rd party candidates? Is he out there in the mainstream media pushing his agenda and building up the Green party? I know he's "active," but I don't see him much, if at all.
a 3rd party means another place for sheep to blindly follow, let's actually focus on fixing what we have, in stead of expanding the problem. I know many feel the 3rd party is part of fixing things, I don't agree, but if a 3rd party emerges, I don't have a problem with that either.
Stop by:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=14678777351&ref=mf
it was always on his website that he'd redeploy troops to Afghanistan while he campaigned. although he did have this gem to say about Iraq while campaigning:
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama October 27, 2007
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
i think mainly he has been working with november5.org and he just wrote a book. as far as ballot restrictions because of their numbers last election in several states the party he ran on (he was on the ballot for different parties in different states) won't have to go through the great hurdles to get on the ballots for the election last month and on depending on the state. he's not a ghost, he just doesn't get as much coverage. i've seen lots of articles and interviews with him since the election
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
That said, America is a stupid country so it's probably never going to happen in my lifetime.
i wonder how many people have read your quote above from Obama, feigned 'outrage', and then moved on to the next thread.
be proactive, rather than reactive.
you can write to the Obama Administration at http://www.whitehouse.gov and convey your displeasure there.