I work in a research lab and what I dont get is it takes up to 30 years sometimes to get drugs out on the market due to regulation and testing. H1N1 pops up and within a matter of months they have an instant cure all vaccine. Just seems a little fishy to me.
You do realize that vaccines don't work that way, don't you? I mean, since you work in a research lab and all. The method of action for vaccines is scientifically well understood and has been for many, many years. So there's a bit of a difference between approval of a vaccine for a new flu strain and the years of testing that needs to happen before the FDA can approve a new drug.
Yet the FDA rushed approval on the H1N1 and cut corners when it came to a complete safety analysis.
I work in a research lab and what I dont get is it takes up to 30 years sometimes to get drugs out on the market due to regulation and testing. H1N1 pops up and within a matter of months they have an instant cure all vaccine. Just seems a little fishy to me.
You do realize that vaccines don't work that way, don't you? I mean, since you work in a research lab and all. The method of action for vaccines is scientifically well understood and has been for many, many years. So there's a bit of a difference between approval of a vaccine for a new flu strain and the years of testing that needs to happen before the FDA can approve a new drug.
Yet the FDA rushed approval on the H1N1 and cut corners when it came to a complete safety analysis.
I work in a research lab and what I dont get is it takes up to 30 years sometimes to get drugs out on the market due to regulation and testing. H1N1 pops up and within a matter of months they have an instant cure all vaccine. Just seems a little fishy to me.
They were able to approve it so quickly because it's not a new drug. It's just another strain change to the same old flu shot, just like is done every year when they see what strains are circulating. The only reason this is given separately is because they didn't know about it in time to adjust the seasonal flu shot for it.
Also, no one is claiming it's an instant cure-all vaccine.
I work in a research lab and what I dont get is it takes up to 30 years sometimes to get drugs out on the market due to regulation and testing. H1N1 pops up and within a matter of months they have an instant cure all vaccine. Just seems a little fishy to me.
You do realize that vaccines don't work that way, don't you? I mean, since you work in a research lab and all. The method of action for vaccines is scientifically well understood and has been for many, many years. So there's a bit of a difference between approval of a vaccine for a new flu strain and the years of testing that needs to happen before the FDA can approve a new drug.
there is a difference between years of testing and conducting an initial thorough review
you tend to simplify the vaccine however the government and the media are portraying the swine flu as the deadly killer aiming to wipe out the human race. a bit of a contradiction......no?
I work in a research lab and what I dont get is it takes up to 30 years sometimes to get drugs out on the market due to regulation and testing. H1N1 pops up and within a matter of months they have an instant cure all vaccine. Just seems a little fishy to me.
They were able to approve it so quickly because it's not a new drug. It's just another strain change to the same old flu shot, just like is done every year when they see what strains are circulating. The only reason this is given separately is because they didn't know about it in time to adjust the seasonal flu shot for it.
Also, no one is claiming it's an instant cure-all vaccine.
they didn't know about the swine flu in time?
this has been going on for almost a year now
Exactly. Just goes to show that they didn't rush into it.
Out of curiosity, what factors into the decision-making process when a guy with a newborn who works with prison populations decides not to get vaccinated during a flu pandemic?
Do you think you are unlikely to get the flu? Or that, even if you or baby got it, it wouldn't be that serious? Or that even if it was serious, it could be easily cured? Or that whatever will be will be? Or that the vaccine doesn't work anyway? Or that the risks of the vaccine outweigh the risks of the flu for you, your child, & the people with whom you come into contact? Or that you don't want to get the shot based on some kind religious principle? Or that you don't want to get it based on principle because you feel pressured to get it? Or what?
I do not feel that I need to justify my decisions to you however this is just one of the reason......
I work in a research lab and what I dont get is it takes up to 30 years sometimes to get drugs out on the market due to regulation and testing. H1N1 pops up and within a matter of months they have an instant cure all vaccine. Just seems a little fishy to me.
SBC- there are other reasons.... but simply I feel that it is not as serious as it is being portrayed (yes it is serious) but not the matter of life and death that you and others make it out to be. I also feel that the regular flu is being miss diagnosed as the swine flu..... and yes my daughter is getting the regular flu vaccine. And yes I do not trust something that was seemingly created overnight and rushed, in haste, to the public. And no I do not think that it works as the saving grace that it is meant to be, next year it will be something else or the flu will mutate or something. I know people that get the seasonal flu shot and still get the flu.
Lastly I can not vaccinate the world, for example we are going to be flying in a week or so, 200 people in close proximity sharing the same air. Even if my wife and I get vaccinated the only way to truly protect my newborn is put her in a bubble or not let her leave the house for 6 months when she can get the vaccine herself. We are not that kind of parents, we have our daughter out as much as possible even when it 15 degrees in Chicago. So it is not so much about what will be will be..... but well.... we live in a world that is dangerous and what can I do about it other then live life and love life while I am here
*edit* BTW in the end if we get the shots it will solely be because of our newborn
GREECE
Deaths from Flu = 31
Deaths from Vaccine = 0
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
"Dec. 4, 2009 - Serious reactions after receiving the H1N1 swine flu vaccine are rare and not significantly higher than those seen from the seasonal flu vaccine, according to a briefing at the CDC today."
At this point I know several people who have gotten the vaccine, not one has had an adverse reaction beyond what I get when I get a regular flu shot. I know there are people somewhere in the world who have had really nasty reactions, but there are really nasty reactions in this world to peanuts--reactions that can kill a person. Most of us can eat them all day long, every day with no problem. For the average person, the benefits far outweigh the risks...although it is true that with anything in life that you put in your body, you could be Mr. or Ms. Lucky and die from it.
:roll:
I'd post interviews with the people who have had the worst nasty reactions to the flu itself, but they're all dead.
Please note that there was absolutely no evidence provided in this video that the GBS was CAUSED by the vaccine.
Please note as well that, though 52 million doses of H1N1 vaccine have been distributed (as of 11/24), only 10 TOTAL cases of GBS have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (and there could be multiple reports for the same case). But 80-160 cases of GBS are expected to occur EACH WEEK, regardless of vaccination.
How long has the vaccination been available? Since the last week of October? So let's say we're looking at 52 million vaccinations over a one month (4 week) period (10/24-11/24). Even without the vaccination, we should have seen 320-640 cases on GBS in this time period. Assuming there were not multiple reports of the same case, we have seen a whopping 10 cases in people who were vaccinated. Doesn't it seem likely that with up to 640 cases of GBS expected and 52 million people being vaccinated, that 10 (or just 1, as in the case of the video) people who WERE ALREADY GOING TO GET GBS THIS MONTH may have also coincidentally been vaccinated???
Also, have the overall cases of GBS increased? If not, you can't blame the vaccine.
For those questioning about how quickly the vaccine came out and was approved: I am pretty sure that I read somewher that the aswine flu is an off shoot of the asian flu, which has now been around for a long time.
Please note as well that, though 52 million doses of H1N1 vaccine have been distributed (as of 11/24), only 10 TOTAL cases of GBS have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (and there could be multiple reports for the same case). But 80-160 cases of GBS are expected to occur EACH WEEK, regardless of vaccination.
How long has the vaccination been available? Since the last week of October? So let's say we're looking at 52 million vaccinations over a one month (4 week) period (10/24-11/24). Even without the vaccination, we should have seen 320-640 cases on GBS in this time period. Assuming there were not multiple reports of the same case, we have seen a whopping 10 cases in people who were vaccinated. Doesn't it seem likely that with up to 640 cases of GBS expected and 52 million people being vaccinated, that 10 (or just 1, as in the case of the video) people who WERE ALREADY GOING TO GET GBS THIS MONTH may have also coincidentally been vaccinated???
Also, have the overall cases of GBS increased? If not, you can't blame the vaccine.
I could use the same logic for my point....
there are about 310 million people in the US, so far what 1200 have died from swine flue.... odds are, I won't die... I have a better chance of winning the Illinois Little Lotto which has odds of 1 in 500,000.
The seasonal flue kills on average 36,00 each year, so lets estimate that the swine flue will kill about 2000-2500 this year (however I suspect it will be less then 2,000) tell me again why I should fear the swine flu more then the seasonal flu which kills 18 times more people?
Lastly 440,000 people a year die from smoking, however that is still legal, if they put the same effort in ending smoking as they are in promoting vaccines for the swine flu they would save far more people from death.
Please note as well that, though 52 million doses of H1N1 vaccine have been distributed (as of 11/24), only 10 TOTAL cases of GBS have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (and there could be multiple reports for the same case). But 80-160 cases of GBS are expected to occur EACH WEEK, regardless of vaccination.
How long has the vaccination been available? Since the last week of October? So let's say we're looking at 52 million vaccinations over a one month (4 week) period (10/24-11/24). Even without the vaccination, we should have seen 320-640 cases on GBS in this time period. Assuming there were not multiple reports of the same case, we have seen a whopping 10 cases in people who were vaccinated. Doesn't it seem likely that with up to 640 cases of GBS expected and 52 million people being vaccinated, that 10 (or just 1, as in the case of the video) people who WERE ALREADY GOING TO GET GBS THIS MONTH may have also coincidentally been vaccinated???
Also, have the overall cases of GBS increased? If not, you can't blame the vaccine.
I could use the same logic for my point....
there are about 310 million people in the US, so far what 1200 have died from swine flue.... odds are, I won't die... I have a better chance of winning the Illinois Little Lotto which has odds of 1 in 500,000.
Uh, that’s not the same logic or even the same subject.
I was addressing the implication that the H1N1 vaccine CAUSED the guy in the video to develop GBS. I was pointing out that it’s a reasonable coincidence for 1 guy (or even 10 people) to get GBS AND have received a flu shot in the same month, and that just because this guy got GBS after receiving the vaccine does not indicate that the incidence of GBS has increased since the vaccine has been on the market, therefore there is no reason to believe that GBS is attributable to the vaccine.
You are saying there’s a greater chance that you won’t die from the swine flu than that you will. No shit, Sherlock! :roll: No one has ever, EVER said that the odds of you dying from the swine flu are greater than the odds that you won’t. EVER. It’s only been said that the odds of dying from the swine flu are greater than the odds of dying from the vaccination.
The seasonal flue kills on average 36,00 each year, so lets estimate that the swine flue will kill about 2000-2500 this year (however I suspect it will be less then 2,000) tell me again why I should fear the swine flu more then the seasonal flu which kills 18 times more people?
Because the swine flu is killing DIFFERENT POPULATIONS of people at different rates than the seasonal flu. With the seasonal flu, something like 90% of the people who die are over age 65. So those of us who are younger than 65 don’t have much cause for concern. With the swine flu, 91% of the people who are dying are UNDER age 65. So, FOR THE PEOPLE IN THESE YOUNGER POPULATIONS, we are at greater risk than normal.
Lastly 440,000 people a year die from smoking, however that is still legal, if they put the same effort in ending smoking as they are in promoting vaccines for the swine flu they would save far more people from death.
1. Apples & oranges.
2. “They” DO put considerably more effort into ending smoking than they put into promoting the swine flu vaccine. It’s just not considered newsworthy enough to be reported by whatever your source of information is.
3. What's your point? You seem to be suggesting that the H1N1 vaccine not be promoted because people smoke.
Please note as well that, though 52 million doses of H1N1 vaccine have been distributed (as of 11/24), only 10 TOTAL cases of GBS have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (and there could be multiple reports for the same case). But 80-160 cases of GBS are expected to occur EACH WEEK, regardless of vaccination.
How long has the vaccination been available? Since the last week of October? So let's say we're looking at 52 million vaccinations over a one month (4 week) period (10/24-11/24). Even without the vaccination, we should have seen 320-640 cases on GBS in this time period. Assuming there were not multiple reports of the same case, we have seen a whopping 10 cases in people who were vaccinated. Doesn't it seem likely that with up to 640 cases of GBS expected and 52 million people being vaccinated, that 10 (or just 1, as in the case of the video) people who WERE ALREADY GOING TO GET GBS THIS MONTH may have also coincidentally been vaccinated???
Also, have the overall cases of GBS increased? If not, you can't blame the vaccine.
I could use the same logic for my point....
there are about 310 million people in the US, so far what 1200 have died from swine flue.... odds are, I won't die... I have a better chance of winning the Illinois Little Lotto which has odds of 1 in 500,000.
Uh, that’s not the same logic or even the same subject.
I was addressing the implication that the H1N1 vaccine CAUSED the guy in the video to develop GBS. I was pointing out that it’s a reasonable coincidence for 1 guy (or even 10 people) to get GBS AND have received a flu shot in the same month, and that just because this guy got GBS after receiving the vaccine does not indicate that the incidence of GBS has increased since the vaccine has been on the market, therefore there is no reason to believe that GBS is attributable to the vaccine.
You are saying there’s a greater chance that you won’t die from the swine flu than that you will. No shit, Sherlock! :roll: No one has ever, EVER said that the odds of you dying from the swine flu are greater than the odds that you won’t. EVER. It’s only been said that the odds of dying from the swine flu are greater than the odds of dying from the vaccination.
The seasonal flue kills on average 36,00 each year, so lets estimate that the swine flue will kill about 2000-2500 this year (however I suspect it will be less then 2,000) tell me again why I should fear the swine flu more then the seasonal flu which kills 18 times more people?
Because the swine flu is killing DIFFERENT POPULATIONS of people at different rates than the seasonal flu. With the seasonal flu, something like 90% of the people who die are over age 65. So those of us who are younger than 65 don’t have much cause for concern. With the swine flu, 91% of the people who are dying are UNDER age 65. So, FOR THE PEOPLE IN THESE YOUNGER POPULATIONS, we are at greater risk than normal.
Lastly 440,000 people a year die from smoking, however that is still legal, if they put the same effort in ending smoking as they are in promoting vaccines for the swine flu they would save far more people from death.
1. Apples & oranges.
2. “They” DO put considerably more effort into ending smoking than they put into promoting the swine flu vaccine. It’s just not considered newsworthy enough to be reported by whatever your source of information is.
3. What's your point? You seem to be suggesting that the H1N1 vaccine not be promoted because people smoke.
Wait you mean apples and oranges, like your comparison earlier that getting the shot was like the lunch lady having to shave her head.....
there are about 310 million people in the US, so far what 1200 have died from swine flue.... odds are, I won't die... I have a better chance of winning the Illinois Little Lotto which has odds of 1 in 500,000. The seasonal flue kills on average 36,00 each year, so lets estimate that the swine flue will kill about 2000-2500 this year (however I suspect it will be less then 2,000) tell me again why I should fear the swine flu more then the seasonal flu which kills 18 times more people?
Lastly 440,000 people a year die from smoking, however that is still legal, if they put the same effort in ending smoking as they are in promoting vaccines for the swine flu they would save far more people from death.
Uh, that’s not the same logic or even the same subject.
I was addressing the implication that the H1N1 vaccine CAUSED the guy in the video to develop GBS. I was pointing out that it’s a reasonable coincidence for 1 guy (or even 10 people) to get GBS AND have received a flu shot in the same month, and that just because this guy got GBS after receiving the vaccine does not indicate that the incidence of GBS has increased since the vaccine has been on the market, therefore there is no reason to believe that GBS is attributable to the vaccine.
You are saying there’s a greater chance that you won’t die from the swine flu than that you will. No shit, Sherlock! :roll: No one has ever, EVER said that the odds of you dying from the swine flu are greater than the odds that you won’t. EVER. It’s only been said that the odds of dying from the swine flu are greater than the odds of dying from the vaccination.
Are you even serious??
Because the swine flu is killing DIFFERENT POPULATIONS of people at different rates than the seasonal flu. With the seasonal flu, something like 90% of the people who die are over age 65. So those of us who are younger than 65 don’t have much cause for concern. With the swine flu, 91% of the people who are dying are UNDER age 65. So, FOR THE PEOPLE IN THESE YOUNGER POPULATIONS, we are at greater risk than normal.
1. Apples & oranges.
2. “They” DO put considerably more effort into ending smoking than they put into promoting the swine flu vaccine. It’s just not considered newsworthy enough to be reported by whatever your source of information is.
3. What's your point? You seem to be suggesting that the H1N1 vaccine not be promoted because people smoke.
We could argue this forever so I will keep it short
1. it WAS the same logic, you were saying how rare it was to develop GBS from vaccine and I was saying that it was rare to die from the swine flu. (and yes I know that no one was saying I was going to die, but I also do not think I am going to die from the vaccine :roll:) Yes you might get sick but getting sick is part of being alive, I believe in the resilience of the human immune system
2. Yes I am serious are you?
3. Okay I will give you the age factor however if you remove everyone over 65 from the equation I will still take my odds
4. Who puts more effort into anti-smoking? Not the government which is what I was referring to, cigarette companies put more into anti-smoking campaigns then the government does. Stop kidding yourself, you know I was not suggesting that the H1N1 not be promoted becuase people smoke..... I was merely suggesting that smoking related deaths is much more of a pandemic then the swine flu.... IMO, I have lost far more.... far more family members and friends to smoking then I have to any flu or virus.....
We could argue this forever so I will keep it short
1. it WAS the same logic, you were saying how rare it was to develop GBS from vaccine and I was saying that it was rare to die from the swine flu. (and yes I know that no one was saying I was going to die, but I also do not think I am going to die from the vaccine :roll:) Yes you might get sick but getting sick is part of being alive, I believe in the resilience of the human immune system
2. Yes I am serious are you?
3. Okay I will give you the age factor however if you remove everyone over 65 from the equation I will still take my odds
4. Who puts more effort into anti-smoking? Not the government which is what I was referring to, cigarette companies put more into anti-smoking campaigns then the government does. Stop kidding yourself, you know I was not suggesting that the H1N1 not be promoted becuase people smoke..... I was merely suggesting that smoking related deaths is much more of a pandemic then the swine flu.... IMO, I have lost far more.... far more family members and friends to smoking then I have to any flu or virus.....
No, that's NOT what I was saying regarding GBS. I was saying that causation has not been established. I was talking about CAUSATION. You were talking about ODDS.
No one said you're going to die from the vaccine either.
We are talking about 3 different comparisons here:
1. The chances of dying of the flu versus not dying of the flu. No one is arguing that the former is greater than the latter, although this seems to be the comparison upon which your logic was based.
2. The chances of morbidity or mortality from the flu versus the chaces of morbidity or mortality from the vaccine. All the data shows that the former is considerably greater, especially in populations such as newborns or those at greater risk of catching the flu (like prison inmates).
3. The chances of flu-related morbidity or mortality in vaccinated versus unvaccinated populations. We know from the many years of flu vaccine data that risk is greater in unvaccinated populations.
# 1 is irrelevant. #s 2 & 3 indicate that overall risk is reduced by being vaccinated. That's just factual, objective data. It’s not a value statement. It’s not a guilt trip.
If you don’t want to get vaccinated, fine. Whatever. I don’t really give a shit. No one is forcing you to be vaccinated (despite your inflammatory thread title). Just make your decision based on the facts. The fact is that vaccination reduces risk - just like seat belts and car seats and hand-washing and condoms reduce risk – and that’s all anyone has been trying to say.
Regarding smoking, the field of public health (which is, in fact, largely funded by the government) puts more effort into anti-smoking campaigns than into H1N1 flu vaccine campaigns, though your statement is completely irrelevant anyway.
3. Okay I will give you the age factor however if you remove everyone over 65 from the equation I will still take my odds
One more thing, regarding the above statement:
I have never, until this year, chosen to receive the flu vaccine or any other vaccine. I'm horribly afraid of shots. I would rather die from the flu than get a shot. Personally, I'll take my odds too.
But I chose to be vaccinated this year, not for myself, but for the people around me. Not only would I never want to give the flu to my friends or family, but I work with pregnant women and newborns, who are particular risk from the flu. I may have a right to "take my odds" for myself, but I don't feel like I have a (moral) right to take that risk for someone else.
You said "being sick is part of being alive". Would that make you feel better if I got your baby sick?
lets estimate that the swine flue will kill about 2000-2500 this year (however I suspect it will be less then 2,000)
Swine flu has killed 10,000 Americans since April
More than 200,000 Americans had been hospitalized -- about the same number who are affected by seasonal flu in an entire year.
Thursday, December 10, 2009
CHICAGO (Reuters) - Swine flu has killed nearly 10,000 Americans, including 1,100 children and 7,500 younger adults, and infected one in six people in the United States since arriving last April, health officials said on Thursday.
"What we've seen for months is this is a flu that is much harder on younger people," Dr. Thomas Frieden, director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, told a media briefing.
He estimated that between April and November 14 there had been nearly 50 million cases of H1N1 influenza in the United States, mostly in younger adults and children. That was more than double the CDC's estimate in November of 22 million Americans.
Frieden said more than 200,000 Americans had been hospitalized -- about the same number who are affected by seasonal flu in an entire year.
"About 15 percent of the entire country has been infected with H1N1 influenza, or about one in six people," Frieden told a media briefing.
"That still leaves most people not having been infected and still remaining susceptible to H1N1 influenza," he said.
He said supplies of H1N1 vaccine had continued to improve, and some 85 million doses of the vaccine had been made available for distribution so far, with 12 million more doses added this week.
That is up from 73 million doses a week ago -- but still far fewer than had been hoped for by this week.
Even so, Frieden said vaccine supplies had opened up enough that states were beginning to distribute the vaccine to the general population.
He urged people not to be complacent about getting the vaccine because of reports the current wave of H1N1 influenza is waning.
"This is still a good window of opportunity to be vaccinated," he said. "Vaccination remains the most important thing you can do to protect yourself and your family from H1N1 influenza."
He said the seasonal flu season was beginning and it was not clear what would happen with H1N1 or whether there would be a third wave of the virus in the spring.
"We know that the more people who get vaccinated, the lower the likelihood will be of additional cases or a third wave," Frieden said.
In a typical year, seasonal influenza kills 36,000 Americans and puts 200,000 into the hospital
hey SCB, we can't let facts get in the way of people's decision making now can we...
True! Facts are such pesky things!
I don't mean to suggest that the facts should get in the way of people's decision making - only that the facts should get in the way of people's bullshit that they are presenting as facts.
I was glad to see all of the flu threads fall off of the main page in the past few days. People have moved on to "Climate Gate" and other political issues.
But here you go, bumping the topic! You not only had the last word on this thread, you had the last two posts.
hey SCB, we can't let facts get in the way of people's decision making now can we...
True! Facts are such pesky things!
I don't mean to suggest that the facts should get in the way of people's decision making - only that the facts should get in the way of people's bullshit that they are presenting as facts.
I know a lot of people. I don't know one person that has been diagnosed with h1n1. But your facts said 1 in 6 I believe.......seems odd.
I was glad to see all of the flu threads fall off of the main page in the past few days. People have moved on to "Climate Gate" and other political issues.
But here you go, bumping the topic! You not only had the last word on this thread, you had the last two posts.
:roll:
News flash: This topic & these threads aren't about what you want or about me having the last word. It's about factual information (although I understand how you could forget that, being so unfamiliar with the concept & all). Please note the date of the article I posted & you'll see that it just came out that day. How egotistical of me to think that newly released H1N1 prevalence data would be relevant to a thread where we're discussing the prevalence of H1N1! :roll:
If you don't like it or you aren't interested in the subject, you don't have to read the thread or bump/post in it. You can stick to the threads that interest you & I'll continue to stick to the threads that interest me.
I am sorry but those numbers are not fact, they are estimates
notice in the article that every time he reports a number the sentence starts with "about" or "approximately"
I am not doubting that it has killed a good number of people
so when someone comes out and says... "I estimate that it has killed about..."
I have a hard time accepting it
Hahahahaha.... you're cracking me up!
Are you actually suggesting that your "estimates" are more (or even equally) valid than the CDC rounding the numbers off???
"About" and "approximately" are completely different than "I'm totally pulling numbers right out of my ass".
1- Who is pulling numbers out of their ass? Not even sure why you say such thing
2- The CDC does not round off they estimate, note below how many times they use the word estimate, it is even in the URL addres :roll:
Taken from http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/estimates_2009_h1n1.htm
On Novebmer 12, 2009 CDC provided the first set of estimates on the numbers of 2009 H1N1 cases and related hospitalizations and deaths in the United States between April and October 17, 2009.
Estimates from April – October 17, 2009:
* CDC estimated that between 14 million and 34 million cases of 2009 H1N1 occurred between April and October 17, 2009. The mid-level in this range was about 22 million people infected with 2009 H1N1.
* CDC estimated that between about 63,000 and 153,000 2009 H1N1-related hospitalizations occurred between April and October 17, 2009. The mid-level in this range was about 98,000 H1N1-related hospitalizations.
* CDC estimated that between about 2,500 and 6,000 2009 H1N1-related deaths occurred between April and October 17, 2009. The mid-level in this range was about 3,900 2009 H1N1-related deaths.
Updated Estimates from April – November 14, 2009
Using the same methodology CDC has updated the estimates to include the time period from April through November 14, 2009.
* CDC estimates that between 34 million and 67 million cases of 2009 H1N1 occurred between April and November 14, 2009. The mid-level in this range is about 47 million people infected with 2009 H1N1.
* CDC estimates that between about 154,000 and 303,000 2009 H1N1-related hospitalizations occurred between April and November 14, 2009. The mid-level in this range is about 213,000 H1N1-related hospitalizations.
* CDC estimates that between about 7,070 and 13,930 2009 H1N1-related deaths occurred between April and November 14, 2009. The mid-level in this range is about 9,820 2009 H1N1-related deaths.
Note: More than 95% of the increases in the estimated numbers of 2009 H1N1 cases, hospitalizations and deaths between the November 12 and December 10 estimates occurred between October 17 and November 14, 2009. (Less than 5% of increases are the result of delayed reporting in cases, hospitalizations and deaths that occurred prior to October 17, 2009.)
hey SCB, we can't let facts get in the way of people's decision making now can we...
True! Facts are such pesky things!
I don't mean to suggest that the facts should get in the way of people's decision making - only that the facts should get in the way of people's bullshit that they are presenting as facts.
My facts are just as much fact as your facts..... even we even used some of the same numbers, shit the article you linked is hard to take as fact considering you pulled it from 1350 progessive talk radio
I was glad to see all of the flu threads fall off of the main page in the past few days. People have moved on to "Climate Gate" and other political issues.
But here you go, bumping the topic! You not only had the last word on this thread, you had the last two posts.
I was actually trying to let it die since I had started it...oh well
Comments
Well now that's debatable.
no it was directed at the person whom I quoted
they didn't know about the swine flu in time?
this has been going on for almost a year now
there is a difference between years of testing and conducting an initial thorough review
you tend to simplify the vaccine however the government and the media are portraying the swine flu as the deadly killer aiming to wipe out the human race. a bit of a contradiction......no?
Exactly. Just goes to show that they didn't rush into it.
Although I completley disagree with your final decision, I'm genuinely curious about the decision-making process.
I do not feel that I need to justify my decisions to you however this is just one of the reason......
SBC- there are other reasons.... but simply I feel that it is not as serious as it is being portrayed (yes it is serious) but not the matter of life and death that you and others make it out to be. I also feel that the regular flu is being miss diagnosed as the swine flu..... and yes my daughter is getting the regular flu vaccine. And yes I do not trust something that was seemingly created overnight and rushed, in haste, to the public. And no I do not think that it works as the saving grace that it is meant to be, next year it will be something else or the flu will mutate or something. I know people that get the seasonal flu shot and still get the flu.
Lastly I can not vaccinate the world, for example we are going to be flying in a week or so, 200 people in close proximity sharing the same air. Even if my wife and I get vaccinated the only way to truly protect my newborn is put her in a bubble or not let her leave the house for 6 months when she can get the vaccine herself. We are not that kind of parents, we have our daughter out as much as possible even when it 15 degrees in Chicago. So it is not so much about what will be will be..... but well.... we live in a world that is dangerous and what can I do about it other then live life and love life while I am here
*edit* BTW in the end if we get the shots it will solely be because of our newborn
Deaths from Flu = 31
Deaths from Vaccine = 0
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
http://www.webmd.com/cold-and-flu/news/ ... lu-vaccine
"Dec. 4, 2009 - Serious reactions after receiving the H1N1 swine flu vaccine are rare and not significantly higher than those seen from the seasonal flu vaccine, according to a briefing at the CDC today."
At this point I know several people who have gotten the vaccine, not one has had an adverse reaction beyond what I get when I get a regular flu shot. I know there are people somewhere in the world who have had really nasty reactions, but there are really nasty reactions in this world to peanuts--reactions that can kill a person. Most of us can eat them all day long, every day with no problem. For the average person, the benefits far outweigh the risks...although it is true that with anything in life that you put in your body, you could be Mr. or Ms. Lucky and die from it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctTxcBag ... r_embedded
:roll:
I'd post interviews with the people who have had the worst nasty reactions to the flu itself, but they're all dead.
Please note that there was absolutely no evidence provided in this video that the GBS was CAUSED by the vaccine.
Please note as well that, though 52 million doses of H1N1 vaccine have been distributed (as of 11/24), only 10 TOTAL cases of GBS have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (and there could be multiple reports for the same case). But 80-160 cases of GBS are expected to occur EACH WEEK, regardless of vaccination.
How long has the vaccination been available? Since the last week of October? So let's say we're looking at 52 million vaccinations over a one month (4 week) period (10/24-11/24). Even without the vaccination, we should have seen 320-640 cases on GBS in this time period. Assuming there were not multiple reports of the same case, we have seen a whopping 10 cases in people who were vaccinated. Doesn't it seem likely that with up to 640 cases of GBS expected and 52 million people being vaccinated, that 10 (or just 1, as in the case of the video) people who WERE ALREADY GOING TO GET GBS THIS MONTH may have also coincidentally been vaccinated???
Also, have the overall cases of GBS increased? If not, you can't blame the vaccine.
I could use the same logic for my point....
there are about 310 million people in the US, so far what 1200 have died from swine flue.... odds are, I won't die... I have a better chance of winning the Illinois Little Lotto which has odds of 1 in 500,000.
The seasonal flue kills on average 36,00 each year, so lets estimate that the swine flue will kill about 2000-2500 this year (however I suspect it will be less then 2,000) tell me again why I should fear the swine flu more then the seasonal flu which kills 18 times more people?
Lastly 440,000 people a year die from smoking, however that is still legal, if they put the same effort in ending smoking as they are in promoting vaccines for the swine flu they would save far more people from death.
Uh, that’s not the same logic or even the same subject.
I was addressing the implication that the H1N1 vaccine CAUSED the guy in the video to develop GBS. I was pointing out that it’s a reasonable coincidence for 1 guy (or even 10 people) to get GBS AND have received a flu shot in the same month, and that just because this guy got GBS after receiving the vaccine does not indicate that the incidence of GBS has increased since the vaccine has been on the market, therefore there is no reason to believe that GBS is attributable to the vaccine.
You are saying there’s a greater chance that you won’t die from the swine flu than that you will. No shit, Sherlock! :roll: No one has ever, EVER said that the odds of you dying from the swine flu are greater than the odds that you won’t. EVER. It’s only been said that the odds of dying from the swine flu are greater than the odds of dying from the vaccination.
Are you even serious??
Because the swine flu is killing DIFFERENT POPULATIONS of people at different rates than the seasonal flu. With the seasonal flu, something like 90% of the people who die are over age 65. So those of us who are younger than 65 don’t have much cause for concern. With the swine flu, 91% of the people who are dying are UNDER age 65. So, FOR THE PEOPLE IN THESE YOUNGER POPULATIONS, we are at greater risk than normal.
1. Apples & oranges.
2. “They” DO put considerably more effort into ending smoking than they put into promoting the swine flu vaccine. It’s just not considered newsworthy enough to be reported by whatever your source of information is.
3. What's your point? You seem to be suggesting that the H1N1 vaccine not be promoted because people smoke.
Wait you mean apples and oranges, like your comparison earlier that getting the shot was like the lunch lady having to shave her head.....
We could argue this forever so I will keep it short
1. it WAS the same logic, you were saying how rare it was to develop GBS from vaccine and I was saying that it was rare to die from the swine flu. (and yes I know that no one was saying I was going to die, but I also do not think I am going to die from the vaccine :roll:) Yes you might get sick but getting sick is part of being alive, I believe in the resilience of the human immune system
2. Yes I am serious are you?
3. Okay I will give you the age factor however if you remove everyone over 65 from the equation I will still take my odds
4. Who puts more effort into anti-smoking? Not the government which is what I was referring to, cigarette companies put more into anti-smoking campaigns then the government does. Stop kidding yourself, you know I was not suggesting that the H1N1 not be promoted becuase people smoke..... I was merely suggesting that smoking related deaths is much more of a pandemic then the swine flu.... IMO, I have lost far more.... far more family members and friends to smoking then I have to any flu or virus.....
No one said you're going to die from the vaccine either.
We are talking about 3 different comparisons here:
1. The chances of dying of the flu versus not dying of the flu. No one is arguing that the former is greater than the latter, although this seems to be the comparison upon which your logic was based.
2. The chances of morbidity or mortality from the flu versus the chaces of morbidity or mortality from the vaccine. All the data shows that the former is considerably greater, especially in populations such as newborns or those at greater risk of catching the flu (like prison inmates).
3. The chances of flu-related morbidity or mortality in vaccinated versus unvaccinated populations. We know from the many years of flu vaccine data that risk is greater in unvaccinated populations.
# 1 is irrelevant. #s 2 & 3 indicate that overall risk is reduced by being vaccinated. That's just factual, objective data. It’s not a value statement. It’s not a guilt trip.
If you don’t want to get vaccinated, fine. Whatever. I don’t really give a shit. No one is forcing you to be vaccinated (despite your inflammatory thread title). Just make your decision based on the facts. The fact is that vaccination reduces risk - just like seat belts and car seats and hand-washing and condoms reduce risk – and that’s all anyone has been trying to say.
Regarding smoking, the field of public health (which is, in fact, largely funded by the government) puts more effort into anti-smoking campaigns than into H1N1 flu vaccine campaigns, though your statement is completely irrelevant anyway.
One more thing, regarding the above statement:
I have never, until this year, chosen to receive the flu vaccine or any other vaccine. I'm horribly afraid of shots. I would rather die from the flu than get a shot. Personally, I'll take my odds too.
But I chose to be vaccinated this year, not for myself, but for the people around me. Not only would I never want to give the flu to my friends or family, but I work with pregnant women and newborns, who are particular risk from the flu. I may have a right to "take my odds" for myself, but I don't feel like I have a (moral) right to take that risk for someone else.
You said "being sick is part of being alive". Would that make you feel better if I got your baby sick?
Swine flu has killed 10,000 Americans since April
More than 200,000 Americans had been hospitalized -- about the same number who are affected by seasonal flu in an entire year.
Thursday, December 10, 2009
CHICAGO (Reuters) - Swine flu has killed nearly 10,000 Americans, including 1,100 children and 7,500 younger adults, and infected one in six people in the United States since arriving last April, health officials said on Thursday.
"What we've seen for months is this is a flu that is much harder on younger people," Dr. Thomas Frieden, director of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, told a media briefing.
He estimated that between April and November 14 there had been nearly 50 million cases of H1N1 influenza in the United States, mostly in younger adults and children. That was more than double the CDC's estimate in November of 22 million Americans.
Frieden said more than 200,000 Americans had been hospitalized -- about the same number who are affected by seasonal flu in an entire year.
"About 15 percent of the entire country has been infected with H1N1 influenza, or about one in six people," Frieden told a media briefing.
"That still leaves most people not having been infected and still remaining susceptible to H1N1 influenza," he said.
He said supplies of H1N1 vaccine had continued to improve, and some 85 million doses of the vaccine had been made available for distribution so far, with 12 million more doses added this week.
That is up from 73 million doses a week ago -- but still far fewer than had been hoped for by this week.
Even so, Frieden said vaccine supplies had opened up enough that states were beginning to distribute the vaccine to the general population.
He urged people not to be complacent about getting the vaccine because of reports the current wave of H1N1 influenza is waning.
"This is still a good window of opportunity to be vaccinated," he said. "Vaccination remains the most important thing you can do to protect yourself and your family from H1N1 influenza."
He said the seasonal flu season was beginning and it was not clear what would happen with H1N1 or whether there would be a third wave of the virus in the spring.
"We know that the more people who get vaccinated, the lower the likelihood will be of additional cases or a third wave," Frieden said.
In a typical year, seasonal influenza kills 36,000 Americans and puts 200,000 into the hospital
http://www.abqtalk.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=104668&article=6441627
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
notice in the article that every time he reports a number the sentence starts with "about" or "approximately"
I am not doubting that it has killed a good number of people
so when someone comes out and says... "I estimate that it has killed about..."
I have a hard time accepting it
like I said estimates are not fact, they are guesses
not to mention that there is free will and personal freedom
Hahahahaha.... you're cracking me up!
Are you actually suggesting that your "estimates" are more (or even equally) valid than the CDC rounding the numbers off???
"About" and "approximately" are completely different than "I'm totally pulling numbers right out of my ass".
True! Facts are such pesky things!
I don't mean to suggest that the facts should get in the way of people's decision making - only that the facts should get in the way of people's bullshit that they are presenting as facts.
I was glad to see all of the flu threads fall off of the main page in the past few days. People have moved on to "Climate Gate" and other political issues.
But here you go, bumping the topic! You not only had the last word on this thread, you had the last two posts.
I know a lot of people. I don't know one person that has been diagnosed with h1n1. But your facts said 1 in 6 I believe.......seems odd.
:roll:
News flash: This topic & these threads aren't about what you want or about me having the last word. It's about factual information (although I understand how you could forget that, being so unfamiliar with the concept & all). Please note the date of the article I posted & you'll see that it just came out that day. How egotistical of me to think that newly released H1N1 prevalence data would be relevant to a thread where we're discussing the prevalence of H1N1! :roll:
If you don't like it or you aren't interested in the subject, you don't have to read the thread or bump/post in it. You can stick to the threads that interest you & I'll continue to stick to the threads that interest me.
1- Who is pulling numbers out of their ass? Not even sure why you say such thing
2- The CDC does not round off they estimate, note below how many times they use the word estimate, it is even in the URL addres :roll:
Taken from http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/estimates_2009_h1n1.htm
On Novebmer 12, 2009 CDC provided the first set of estimates on the numbers of 2009 H1N1 cases and related hospitalizations and deaths in the United States between April and October 17, 2009.
Estimates from April – October 17, 2009:
* CDC estimated that between 14 million and 34 million cases of 2009 H1N1 occurred between April and October 17, 2009. The mid-level in this range was about 22 million people infected with 2009 H1N1.
* CDC estimated that between about 63,000 and 153,000 2009 H1N1-related hospitalizations occurred between April and October 17, 2009. The mid-level in this range was about 98,000 H1N1-related hospitalizations.
* CDC estimated that between about 2,500 and 6,000 2009 H1N1-related deaths occurred between April and October 17, 2009. The mid-level in this range was about 3,900 2009 H1N1-related deaths.
Updated Estimates from April – November 14, 2009
Using the same methodology CDC has updated the estimates to include the time period from April through November 14, 2009.
* CDC estimates that between 34 million and 67 million cases of 2009 H1N1 occurred between April and November 14, 2009. The mid-level in this range is about 47 million people infected with 2009 H1N1.
* CDC estimates that between about 154,000 and 303,000 2009 H1N1-related hospitalizations occurred between April and November 14, 2009. The mid-level in this range is about 213,000 H1N1-related hospitalizations.
* CDC estimates that between about 7,070 and 13,930 2009 H1N1-related deaths occurred between April and November 14, 2009. The mid-level in this range is about 9,820 2009 H1N1-related deaths.
Note: More than 95% of the increases in the estimated numbers of 2009 H1N1 cases, hospitalizations and deaths between the November 12 and December 10 estimates occurred between October 17 and November 14, 2009. (Less than 5% of increases are the result of delayed reporting in cases, hospitalizations and deaths that occurred prior to October 17, 2009.)
My facts are just as much fact as your facts..... even we even used some of the same numbers, shit the article you linked is hard to take as fact considering you pulled it from 1350 progessive talk radio
I was actually trying to let it die since I had started it...oh well