Should pro-choice politicians be denied communion?
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34116639/ns/us_news-faith/page/2/print/1/displaymode/1098/
Kennedy dispute reveals a Catholic divide
Debate over how politicians should reconcile faith with their public duties
The Associated Press
updated 4:59 p.m. MT, Mon., Nov . 23, 2009
EAST PROVIDENCE, R.I. - A bitter dispute over abortion that prompted Rhode Island's Roman Catholic bishop to ask Rep. Patrick Kennedy not to receive Holy Communion has revealed the depth of the divide among Catholics over how politicians should reconcile their faith with their public duties.
Bishop Thomas Tobin on Sunday said he made the request because of the Democratic lawmaker's support for abortion rights. The news prompted debate among Catholics around the country and within Rhode Island, the nation's most Catholic state, about whether it was right for Tobin to publicly shame Kennedy for breaking with the church on what its leaders consider a paramount moral issue.
Angel Madera, 20, a Marine visiting his home in Providence for Thanksgiving, said before attending Sunday evening Mass that Tobin was wrong to assail Kennedy's faith.
"If they believe they're a true Catholic, who's to say that they're not?" he said.
‘Be a Catholic’
Others, like Kay Willis, of Smithfield, applauded Tobin for calling Kennedy to account over the conflict between his professed faith and voting record.
"If you're going to be a Catholic, be a Catholic," she said.
The fight began escalating shortly after the death of Kennedy's father, Sen. Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts, and came to a head on the 46th anniversary of the assassination of his uncle, President John F. Kennedy.
Tobin told The Associated Press in an interview Sunday that he's praying for the younger Kennedy, who has been in and out of treatment for substance abuse, and said Kennedy has been acting "erratically."
"He attacked the church. He attacked the position of the church on health care, on abortion, on funding," Tobin said. "And that required that I respond. I don't go out looking for these guys. I don't go out picking these fights."
Their simmering dispute escalated in October when Kennedy criticized Catholic bishops for threatening to oppose an overhaul of the nation's health care system unless lawmakers included tighter restrictions on abortion, which have since been added to the House version of the bill. Tobin said he felt Kennedy made an unprovoked attack on the church and demanded an apology.
Public feud
Since then, their feud has played out in public. Tobin, who has said he might have gone into politics were he not ordained, has written sharp public letters questioning Kennedy's faith and saying his position is scandalous and unacceptable to the church. Kennedy has said his disagreement with the church hierarchy does not make him any less of a Catholic.
Two weeks ago, after a planned meeting between the two fell through, Kennedy said he wanted to stop discussing his faith in public. But then he told The Providence Journal in a story published Sunday that Tobin instructed him not to receive Communion. He also claimed the bishop had told diocesan priests not to give him Communion. Kennedy and his spokespeople did not return repeated requests from the AP seeking comment.
Tobin said he wrote to Kennedy in February 2007 asking him not to receive Communion, but never formally banned Kennedy from receiving Communion nor instructed any priest not to give it to him.
Kennedy said this month that he receives Communion, but he did not say whether his priest is in the Diocese of Providence. Tobin only has authority over priests in Rhode Island, which has a higher percentage of Catholics than any other state.
The bishop said he would probably not personally give Kennedy Communion and might have "a little conversation" with any priest who regularly gave Kennedy the sacrament.
Tobin would not say Sunday whether he had sent similar letters to other pro-choice Catholic politicians, including Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I. Reed said in a statement that he respected Tobin's authority on matters of faith but added that "any discussions we've had are between the two of us."
Split over the issue
Catholics nationally have been split over the issue.
Michael Sean Winters, author of "Left At The Altar: How the Democrats Lost the Catholics and How the Catholics Can Save the Democrats," said he found the public dispute unseemly, even though he opposes abortion and thinks Kennedy is wrong. He said bishops are not making appropriate distinctions when penalizing people over abortion.
There's "a difference between being an abortion doctor, procuring an abortion for yourself or your spouse and saying, 'I don't think abortion should be illegal,'" he said.
Abortion is a major concern for Catholic bishops because opposition to the procedure is based on the church's earliest teachings on preserving human life, which have not changed. By comparison, church teaching on the death penalty is not as definitive and has changed over time, making it difficult for church leaders to demand that Catholic lawmakers agree.
A small number of prelates have publicly asked a Catholic politician to voluntarily abstain from the sacrament.
Mark Silk, director of the Greenberg Center for the Study of Religion in Public Life, said statements made in 2004 by St. Louis Archbishop Raymond Burke, who threatened to deny Communion to Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry, intensified the debate.
"There's real disagreement as far as anybody can tell among the bishops, but they don't like to publicly criticize each other," Silk said.
Other Catholic politicians have wrestled with the same issue Kennedy faces.
In 1984, former Democratic New York Gov. Mario Cuomo, a Catholic who supported abortion rights and was at the time a potential presidential candidate, delivered a speech at the University of Notre Dame explaining that Catholic lawmakers shouldn't be pressured by church leaders to work for anti-abortion legislation. He said Sunday it's dangerous for the church to pressure politicians because of the potential for unintended consequences.
"If you're required (by the church) to make everybody follow your Catholic role, then nobody would vote for Catholics because it's clear that when you get the authority, you're going to be guided by your faith," the former governor told the AP.
Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34116639/ns ... th/page/2/
MSN Privacy . Legal
© 2009 MSNBC.com
Kennedy dispute reveals a Catholic divide
Debate over how politicians should reconcile faith with their public duties
The Associated Press
updated 4:59 p.m. MT, Mon., Nov . 23, 2009
EAST PROVIDENCE, R.I. - A bitter dispute over abortion that prompted Rhode Island's Roman Catholic bishop to ask Rep. Patrick Kennedy not to receive Holy Communion has revealed the depth of the divide among Catholics over how politicians should reconcile their faith with their public duties.
Bishop Thomas Tobin on Sunday said he made the request because of the Democratic lawmaker's support for abortion rights. The news prompted debate among Catholics around the country and within Rhode Island, the nation's most Catholic state, about whether it was right for Tobin to publicly shame Kennedy for breaking with the church on what its leaders consider a paramount moral issue.
Angel Madera, 20, a Marine visiting his home in Providence for Thanksgiving, said before attending Sunday evening Mass that Tobin was wrong to assail Kennedy's faith.
"If they believe they're a true Catholic, who's to say that they're not?" he said.
‘Be a Catholic’
Others, like Kay Willis, of Smithfield, applauded Tobin for calling Kennedy to account over the conflict between his professed faith and voting record.
"If you're going to be a Catholic, be a Catholic," she said.
The fight began escalating shortly after the death of Kennedy's father, Sen. Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts, and came to a head on the 46th anniversary of the assassination of his uncle, President John F. Kennedy.
Tobin told The Associated Press in an interview Sunday that he's praying for the younger Kennedy, who has been in and out of treatment for substance abuse, and said Kennedy has been acting "erratically."
"He attacked the church. He attacked the position of the church on health care, on abortion, on funding," Tobin said. "And that required that I respond. I don't go out looking for these guys. I don't go out picking these fights."
Their simmering dispute escalated in October when Kennedy criticized Catholic bishops for threatening to oppose an overhaul of the nation's health care system unless lawmakers included tighter restrictions on abortion, which have since been added to the House version of the bill. Tobin said he felt Kennedy made an unprovoked attack on the church and demanded an apology.
Public feud
Since then, their feud has played out in public. Tobin, who has said he might have gone into politics were he not ordained, has written sharp public letters questioning Kennedy's faith and saying his position is scandalous and unacceptable to the church. Kennedy has said his disagreement with the church hierarchy does not make him any less of a Catholic.
Two weeks ago, after a planned meeting between the two fell through, Kennedy said he wanted to stop discussing his faith in public. But then he told The Providence Journal in a story published Sunday that Tobin instructed him not to receive Communion. He also claimed the bishop had told diocesan priests not to give him Communion. Kennedy and his spokespeople did not return repeated requests from the AP seeking comment.
Tobin said he wrote to Kennedy in February 2007 asking him not to receive Communion, but never formally banned Kennedy from receiving Communion nor instructed any priest not to give it to him.
Kennedy said this month that he receives Communion, but he did not say whether his priest is in the Diocese of Providence. Tobin only has authority over priests in Rhode Island, which has a higher percentage of Catholics than any other state.
The bishop said he would probably not personally give Kennedy Communion and might have "a little conversation" with any priest who regularly gave Kennedy the sacrament.
Tobin would not say Sunday whether he had sent similar letters to other pro-choice Catholic politicians, including Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I. Reed said in a statement that he respected Tobin's authority on matters of faith but added that "any discussions we've had are between the two of us."
Split over the issue
Catholics nationally have been split over the issue.
Michael Sean Winters, author of "Left At The Altar: How the Democrats Lost the Catholics and How the Catholics Can Save the Democrats," said he found the public dispute unseemly, even though he opposes abortion and thinks Kennedy is wrong. He said bishops are not making appropriate distinctions when penalizing people over abortion.
There's "a difference between being an abortion doctor, procuring an abortion for yourself or your spouse and saying, 'I don't think abortion should be illegal,'" he said.
Abortion is a major concern for Catholic bishops because opposition to the procedure is based on the church's earliest teachings on preserving human life, which have not changed. By comparison, church teaching on the death penalty is not as definitive and has changed over time, making it difficult for church leaders to demand that Catholic lawmakers agree.
A small number of prelates have publicly asked a Catholic politician to voluntarily abstain from the sacrament.
Mark Silk, director of the Greenberg Center for the Study of Religion in Public Life, said statements made in 2004 by St. Louis Archbishop Raymond Burke, who threatened to deny Communion to Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry, intensified the debate.
"There's real disagreement as far as anybody can tell among the bishops, but they don't like to publicly criticize each other," Silk said.
Other Catholic politicians have wrestled with the same issue Kennedy faces.
In 1984, former Democratic New York Gov. Mario Cuomo, a Catholic who supported abortion rights and was at the time a potential presidential candidate, delivered a speech at the University of Notre Dame explaining that Catholic lawmakers shouldn't be pressured by church leaders to work for anti-abortion legislation. He said Sunday it's dangerous for the church to pressure politicians because of the potential for unintended consequences.
"If you're required (by the church) to make everybody follow your Catholic role, then nobody would vote for Catholics because it's clear that when you get the authority, you're going to be guided by your faith," the former governor told the AP.
Copyright 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
URL: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34116639/ns ... th/page/2/
MSN Privacy . Legal
© 2009 MSNBC.com
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Comments
Thoughts?
Hey, a church can be as inclusive or exclusive as it wants, but I think that it's a slippery slope to deny people of communion based on one belief. I'd be willing to bet that there is a decent percentage of Catholics who are pro life or like the article said, people who just don't think that abortion should be illegal. I think that if you are going to deny one random politician communion, you have to be consistent with the rest of the congregation.
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
But let's face it, the Catholic Church doesn't need any more bad press than it has already. If they deny enough people for the wrong reasons, they will lose parishoners, and it will be their problem. Looking at it from their standpoint, do they lose more people by NOT taking a hardline stance against people that choose not to reform? That's tough to say, seeing as how almost NOBODY in Church on Sunday should be on the "breadline." Technically, all of us Catholics are asked to NOT receive communion if we are not in a state of grace, which means to be free of Mortal Sin on the soul. Look up a list of what the Catholic Church considers to be Mortal Sin, and I guarantee we all have committed at least one in the last week. According to the Church, it is an even HUGER sin to receive Holy Communion in a state of sin. If this Bishop and his priests firmly believe and follow the Catechism, they are actually doing Kennedy a favor by not letting him receive Communion, assuming that he hasn't been to confession before mass and made an active attempt to since reform.
Those Kennedys... Always getting special priveleges that the rest of us will never get
It is the duty of the priest to save as many souls as possible. If this bishop feels he is allowing Kennedy's soul to fall by allowing him to receive Communion, he is not fulfilling his obligations to the Church.
Simply for the amount of influence they have. A priest will never know if you or I was at a pro-choice rally, unless one of us happened to show up on the news in an interview, and the priest actually happened to recognize you as one in his congregation. At that point, he STILL wouldn't deny you outright-- he doesn't know for a fact that you have or haven't been to confession since the rally. Also, if you became "public" and influential enough while claiming to be a Catholic, they ASK that you either don't receive communion several times before they actually madate each other not to give it to you. This is a very rare case we're talking about here in this thread, and still I bet that Kennedy could find a Catholic Church within a half hour from his current parish to find a priest that would still give him Communion.
this is not a uniform thing though. the priest at the parish my parents go to apparently went off during his sermon during the 04 electionbecos people had been flyering people's cars with pro-bush literature (largely based on abortion). he basically told them it was not theirs or the church's position to use the pulpit as a political platform and decisions about people's votes should be up to their own conscience.
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
this kinda shit really pisses me off. that said, as a former catholic, daughter to two very religious/observant catholics.....i still say this is bullshit. one can be true to their faith AND still perform their rightful duty as a representative of the government and the people. this is key - you are representative of the people, NOT your own beliefs, alone. being pro-choice does NOT make you pro-abortion, but rather, supporting the citizen's rights to make such distinctions for themselves. no where in the preaching of jesus have i ever read him suggesting people, or government, FORCE people to do things 'his way'...or what he/god deem as right. it was, and always is, about choice. sometimes it seems catholics forget that. jesus wanted you to choose the 'right way'...all on your own. personally, if he were alive today, i think jesus would absolutely be pro-choice.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Or could it mean that they care about the separation of church and state?
This brings up all sorts of interesting issues/questions. Like the difference between being "pro-life" and thinking that abortion should be illegal. Is it enough for Catholics to not commit the "sin" of having an abortion themselves or, to be free of sin, must they also use their (voting) power to prevent others from legally having abortions as well? If it's the latter, is this true of other "sins" too?
Thanks for that explanation for those of us who don't fully understand all the Catholic ritual.
Let me ask you this: If Kennedy has every intention of receiving Communion when he's not in a state of grace, does the priest refusing to allow it make him any less of a sinner in the eyes of God?
I think there's a difference between being public and being influential. Being public is what makes the prist aware of your pro-choice views, but being influential is what allows you to really support abortion rights in an effective way, ya know? They guy at the rally can't make abortion legal in the same way the politian can.
So my question is, is there a difference with regard to sin? Are we sinners because of our beliefs or because of our actions? And then I think this takes us back to the possible distinction between what you do in your own life and what you would have be illegal for others.
Ooohh.... you raise 2 excellent questions/points!
1. Can people who are members of a religion even BE politicians, or are these mutually exclusive pursuits?
2. If people follow a set of religious beliefs because they are forced to by law/society, does it count in the eyes of God?
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
If this opinion holds true.. then, shouldn't politicians (or any other profession or vocation) who supports the Death Penalty or War be denied communion, too?
Hail, Hail!!!
I don't think I can really answer that question with any real certainty, because I'm not God-- or if I am partly God, I'm no more Him than anyone else-- if we all came from the same start, aren't we all part of the being that started us
If I had to guess wildly, I would think he might be slightly less of a sinner-- Catholics do believe the thoughts are almost as bad as the actions. It sounds crazy, because it is. But, there is certainly still a difference between thoughts and actions-- how different would all of our lives be if we acted on all of our thoughts, specifcally those we think to be morally wrong? You're not a murderer, or even an attempted murder until you pull the trigger...
If nothing else, the bishop is probably looking out for his own soul as much as he is looking out for Kennedy's, if not more. He is doing what he believes to be right-- and it has taken him years before he has decided to outright deny Kennedy of the Sacrament.
Other reasons for Catholic officials being so hard on the famous / influential versus the rest of us:
They believe a Catholic Baptism gives you great power, that can easily swing in either direction-- good or evil-- it's almost like Star Wars and the two sides of the FORCE
Now, I don't know about a Catholic Baptism or talent putting any of the Kennedys where they are today... I would think money and a name has more to do with it, but hey, ya never know.
thing is tho, who's to say that supporting a pro-choice stance is a mortal sin?
i *get* that having an abortion may be considered one, but leaving the choice to others - well to me, that is following jesus's example. so yes...i still call bullshit on it.
god may have "laws", but he wants YOU to CHOOSE to follow them, not have someone else deny you the right to make that choice for yourself.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
The Pope and the Vatican Council, I believe, decide what is a mortal sin and what isn't-- a tradition that started with Peter, and continues through to today. It may have even been a mortal sin to even support or vote for a "pro-choice" candidate, although I'm not sure that's still the case.
I can't speak for God, so I don't know if He wants us to accomplish goodness for all mankind through the use of law written by man, or He just wants us to WAKE THE FUCK UP and treat each other, ourselves, and the earth with love and respect. I know I'm not a huge fan of laws myself. I'm totally fine with Jesus' one law, LOVE THY NEIGHBOR.
My current stance on abortion is that abortion is more of a symptom of a problem than the problem itself. I'm fine with the law being whatever it is-- even if it changes. Why? Because no one likes abortion, and no one wants to have them-- but they will continue happen whether there are laws against it or not, so long as there is a demand for them. They are in demand for a myriad of reasons-- the minority of these reasons are medical conditions beyond anyone's control. The majority of these cases are either preventable or would be manageable if we could all work to provide a better life for our own friends, family, and even perfect strangers.
To the Church, life has and always will begin at conception. Or will it? Did you know that the Catholic Church is now accepting Anglican Priests who convert, even if they are married? That's right. You will have married men serving on the alter as more than just the deacons in Church-- actual priests. That's the most progress we've seen from Rome since they apologized for trying to discredit Galileo!
Hey, you can call bullshit all you want. If you want to receive Communion, just don't become a public figure and speak against any of the Church's rules. Actually, as far as I can tell, this one is the biggie for them, and probably the only one they are that strict about. You don't ever hear about them turning away divorcees at the altar, because they are not supposed to receive Communion either (unless your marriage gets annulled by the Church).
It's an exclusive club. All the more reason to join it, or not to join it. I claim to be a Catholic, and I'm not even sure I'm in the club! I think your mind is made up, and so is Mr. Kennedy's... I like Soulsinging's idea. Start your own church! If Al Bundy can do it, so can you!
All in all, I'd rather see us who claim this religion to be good Christians before being good Catholics. The pyramid that runs the show firmly believes that the two are exactly the same thing. I can say that I personally don't agree with that 100%.
Clearly the Catholic Church feels a place in the political arena with their views and, apparently, threats. That's why they're picking not only on politicians, I feel, but the most famous Catholic politicians we have: the Kennedys. Of course this Kennedey criticized the Church, also. But it's clear that the Catholic Church feels that they have a big voice when it comes to politics which is completely against the priciples this country was founded on: Separation of the Church and State.
The Catholic Church better be careful, as they certainly don't have a good track level to push their ancient beliefs around. Which brings another point in the article, about the Church changing it's mind on the death penalty. So they can pick and choose their battles, but some are out of the question?
For the record, I'm not entirely sure this is true. The Catholic church didn't take a highly active anti-abortion role until the 1800s. Also, I'm not sure they've always been opposed to "menstual regualtion". We've got to remember that the science of conception wasn't always as fully understood as it is now.
Not that it matters though.
I'm still not precisely clear about the church's rules though. Is it really against the rules to believe abortion shouldn't be legislated? Does anyone know what the Pope says about sin and the politics of abortion in particular?
I wondered about that too. If the priest feels that merely being pro-choice is the sin, and Kennedy is openly still pro-choice, maybe he figures it's no secret that he hasn't repented or changed his evils ways regarding that issue?
I met a woman last spring who was pregnant. She already has a kid and knew from that pregnancy and from the nature of her job that she can't work and carry a pregnancy to term. She had an abortion. She had tried previously to get her tubes tied but was told she didn't qualify, so after the abortion she got an IUD. IUDs are the most effective contraceptive you can get. Today she called me, pregnant again, IUD still in place. She's going to have another abortion and try again to get her tubes tied.
Even if Kennedy is still openly pro-choice, and perhaps even touts it, I still wonder if the Church has any place being so publicly inclined to bash him about not receiving communion. Denouncing is one thing, but this public display is another.
Sounds like it's an eye for an eye since he "attacked the church" by saying it wasn't their place to demand an anti-abortion amendment to the healthcare reform bill. Personally, I disagree that promoting the separation of church and state is an attack on the church.
For sure. I completely agree with your whole position on this.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Ooh... another good question raised! Who's church is it, really?