The Official New York Yankees Thread

RW81233

you guys are acting as if these guys aren't bionic already. i mean many players have taken parts of their body meant for a different use and stuck in another spot so that they can continue to perform. what isn't bionic about that? you can choose not to have such surgeries, but then your playing days are over or your performance is severely hindered. OR you can choose to have such a surgery and join the fray. How is that different from steroids? You can choose to use them and probably perform at a higher level and/or recover from injury faster, OR you can choose not to and live the "clean" life like Curt Schilling who won baseball games in the ALCS with a cadavers sheath making up for the fact that his natural body broke down.

RW81233

JonnyPistachio wrote:

well, since its just entertainment, and there's no level playing field, and each player should just shoot themselves full of anything that makes them better...maybe one day, there will just be robots playing baseball. it'll be great.

This is where my logic has led me. If we can't level the playing field because it is systemically impossible why even try? And, for the record, baseball during the steroid era was motherfucking AWESOME. Bonds with 73 bombs, Gagne saving like 75 games in a row throwing dirty changeups to back up a 98 mph heater, Sosa going over 50 homers every year like it was nothing, pitching staffs that had like 6 relievers throwing 98+, and a couple starters up in that zone, players recovering from injury faster to keep us all entertained. I don't see why anyone laments a return to that.

Bathgate66

polaris_x

RW81233 wrote:

so then we are back to the "level playing field" idea - the santa claus myth right? no one comes from the same background right? i mean should barry zito, or tim hudson have to brave the waters from cuba everytime we add a cuban import to "level the playing field"? should american baseball hopefuls be starved, taught broken spanish and no english until they are 13 then put in intensive baseball academies where they are signed for pennies on the dollar like dominicans to "level the playing field"? there's no such thing as a level playing field for anything. we don't drug test in other industries and other professions to level the playing field, so, again, why sport? to me it's a secondary remedy for a systemic problem put in place to make us feel better about something mythological.

but your philosophy only leaves room for one of two options ... rules or no rules ... and there are rules in all manners of society ... we have laws everywhere ... if you write an exam - there are guidelines ... no university factors in what schooling you got or what your heritage might be ... everyone is assumed equal on those fronts ... saying they don't exist in real life is patently

RW81233

polaris_x wrote:

RW81233 wrote:

so then we are back to the "level playing field" idea - the santa claus myth right? no one comes from the same background right? i mean should barry zito, or tim hudson have to brave the waters from cuba everytime we add a cuban import to "level the playing field"? should american baseball hopefuls be starved, taught broken spanish and no english until they are 13 then put in intensive baseball academies where they are signed for pennies on the dollar like dominicans to "level the playing field"? there's no such thing as a level playing field for anything. we don't drug test in other industries and other professions to level the playing field, so, again, why sport? to me it's a secondary remedy for a systemic problem put in place to make us feel better about something mythological.

but your philosophy only leaves room for one of two options ... rules or no rules ... and there are rules in all manners of society ... we have laws everywhere ... if you write an exam - there are guidelines ... no university factors in what schooling you got or what your heritage might be ... everyone is assumed equal on those fronts ... saying they don't exist in real life is patently

polaris i agree with you on a great many things, and I see your "this isn't 'Nam" point. However PED testing seems a rather arbitrary thing to go after in the grand scheme of things especially as they improve on the health benefits of steroids and other PEDs. Imagine if you didn't have to use a testosterone mask to pass a test but could just use the drug as is, because it is good for you?

As for Universities looking at your schooling and heritage they certainly do to level the playing field. In my field a degree from Maryland, Florida State, Queen's, or Iowa is looked at favorably against applicants of other schools, plus, when hiring, there is often a race and gender component that is again brought up to "level the playing field". Sometimes it works out that a woman or ethnic minority who wouldn't have normally been given a shot, because the hiring committee is sexist or racist, gets a job and dominates. Other times, good candidates from dominant backgrounds (white, male, straight) don't get the job because the position is a "minority" hire. These are certainly attempts to "level the playing field" to make up for systemic issues. Does having a ban on PEDs have merit - sure. However, it's not changing the culture of sport with the end goal of being the biggest, fastest, and strongest. If we don't change that, no PED ban is ever going to work.

polaris_x

well i've already said that if its proven that PEDs are safe then sure ... i'm all for allowing it ... but i'm not gonna support something that forces someone to risk their health in order to compete for a job ...

also, as it relates to PEDs - it's often not necessarily the use of the drug that bothers me as it is the asshole behaviour that accompanies someone who wants to lie about it ... if you read the lance armstrong threads - you will see that for me, it wasn't that he took drugs that bothered me - it was the fact he sued, bullied, lied and ran clean athletes and decent people out of the sport ... it's really the behaviour of these guys that irks me the most ... it's why i commented originally on AROD ...

RW81233

believe me it's hard to support arod...he's a dick

JonnyPistachio

RW, as I asked a few pages back, are you not concerned that if PEDs are allowed, that kids in college, high school, and maybe earlier will want to take them? Would you be OK if you had a 14 year old that said they wanted steroids for x-mas?

RW81233

JonnyPistachio wrote:

RW, as I asked a few pages back, are you not concerned that if PEDs are allowed, that kids in college, high school, and maybe earlier will want to take them? Would you be OK if you had a 14 year old that said they wanted steroids for x-mas?

you're acting like this doesn't already happen....I have friends who coach high school football, and it's a part of the game at some levels. There are two ways around it. One we educate people on proper PED use, get prescriptions, and hope that people follow those prescriptions so that the damage done to the body is minimal. Two we change sport from the hypercompetitive win-at-all costs mentality. Which is more likely?

Or, put differently, are you at all worried that because the Beatles made great music (some would say anyway) on coke, LSD, weed and whatever else aspiring musicians will do the same?

Jearlpam0925

The beauty of this country is you can get a PhD in anything,

JonnyPistachio

RW81233 wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

RW, as I asked a few pages back, are you not concerned that if PEDs are allowed, that kids in college, high school, and maybe earlier will want to take them? Would you be OK if you had a 14 year old that said they wanted steroids for x-mas?

you're acting like this doesn't already happen....I have friends who coach high school football, and it's a part of the game at some levels. There are two ways around it. One we educate people on proper PED use, get prescriptions, and hope that people follow those prescriptions so that the damage done to the body is minimal. Two we change sport from the hypercompetitive win-at-all costs mentality. Which is more likely?

Or, put differently, are you at all worried that because the Beatles made great music (some would say anyway) on coke, LSD, weed and whatever else aspiring musicians will do the same?

I am not acting like it doesnt happen already, I just asked you a personal quesiton if you would be OK if your own kids did PEDs. But you cant answer it, I get it. I know the shit is out there. I played with several people in high school who I know for a fact did steroids. And it fucked them up.

And seriously, the analogies of LSD and the Beatles are way, way off base. just stick to baseball and the facts if you honestly want to debate it. These ridiculous analogies really weaken your point and take away frpm what were talking about.

RW81233

JonnyPistachio wrote:

RW81233 wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

RW, as I asked a few pages back, are you not concerned that if PEDs are allowed, that kids in college, high school, and maybe earlier will want to take them? Would you be OK if you had a 14 year old that said they wanted steroids for x-mas?

you're acting like this doesn't already happen....I have friends who coach high school football, and it's a part of the game at some levels. There are two ways around it. One we educate people on proper PED use, get prescriptions, and hope that people follow those prescriptions so that the damage done to the body is minimal. Two we change sport from the hypercompetitive win-at-all costs mentality. Which is more likely?

Or, put differently, are you at all worried that because the Beatles made great music (some would say anyway) on coke, LSD, weed and whatever else aspiring musicians will do the same?

I am not acting like it doesnt happen already, I just asked you a personal quesiton if you would be OK if your own kids did PEDs. But you cant answer it, I get it. I know the shit is out there. I played with several people in high school who I know for a fact did steroids. And it fucked them up.

And seriously, the analogies of LSD and the Beatles are way, way off base. just stick to baseball and the facts if you honestly want to debate it. These ridiculous analogies really weaken your point and take away frpm what were talking about.

To directly answer your question. I would really like to live in a world where people don't feel they need to stick themselves with needles or eat magic gummies or put some clear substance on their body to be the BEST at something, or just recover enough to get on the field, or just be good enough to make a paycheck. No I don't want my kid or any kids to feel like they have to do this to be a pro athlete.

However, the reality is that we live in a world the privileges hyper-competition and a win-at-all costs mentality. In a profession where billionaires are paying millionaires to put their bodies on the line so they can make more billions for the wealthy few, I really don't see this changing. Given this reality, and it's been clearly demonstrated with the current penalty system, players will always try to get around it for a variety of reasons. It's sick and disgusting, but that's the world we live in. To try and make up some band aid where the commissioner gets hand wrapped court cases but doesn't really actually do a great job investigating makes little sense to me.

I hate being lied to over this shit (particularly the part that MLB cares about its athletes health), and at a certain point I realized that I don't really actually care about the players lives after they finish their careers. As such, why should I care what they put in their bodies to entertain me. The analogies to music are then very pertinent. If I care about PEDs in sports, and they are simply just entertainers to me, why would I look at what they do any differently than say whatever Kurt Cobain or Eddie Vedder put into their bodies to make the music they did/do. If they were a relative, friend, or someone who meant something more to me than an entertainer then, as you pointed out, I might feel differently.

Finally, PEDs is also a rather arbitrary thing no? I mean at a basic level isn't drinking a cup of coffee in the morning a form of PED usage? What about the air force pilots who are forced to use amphetamines to be better fighters? What about the kid in my class who used non-script adderol to write the best paper I've ever read? Should they then receive a 0? Why, I guess, does this matter to us in sports when the point is to watch human bodies do the most amazing things?

JonnyPistachio

RW, you make some good points about where the line is. I agree, to some degree. But the point with PEDs, is that they can detect them. and some people dont want to do that shit, so its not a good way to run a business.

If its something I cant encourage my kids to do, I dont think its good to encourage on any level, (regarding sports).

And the reason why I disagree with the music analogies is that the Beatles music doesnt make Pearl Jams music any worse. its not a competition. Its not a sport that relies on physical capabilities.

But, to fight this stuff is a waste of time, ultimately...because sooner or later, some chemist is going to come up with non-detectable, non-threatening, PEDs. Thats why I mentioned the robot thing earlier...I wasnt kidding.

RW81233

i think you make a good point about maybe why they should stay black market...the chemists must get better to get around the tests. if we make a free for all now and they are detectable then maybe the chemists stop getting better. we've been always moving towards robots or bionic humans...isn't that the job of doctors to make bodies that don't "work" right be more fit to work right?

lukin2006

Mark Cuban criticizes A-Rod suspension

http://thescore.com/mlb/articles/124900 ... suspension

Mark Cuban, flamboyant billionaire and owner of the NBA's Dallas Mavericks, expressed his displeasure with the harsh penalty levied on Alex Rodriguez during a Thursday appearance on The Tonight Show.
Rodriguez was handed a 211-game suspension by Major League Baseball on Monday for his involvement with the Biogenesis clinic.
"Horrible. No, I think it’s disgraceful what Major League Baseball is trying to do to him," Cuban said of Rodriguez. "Not that he doesn’t deserve to be suspended, he does. But they have policies in place. First time offenders… 50 games, second time 100. 214 games? That’s personal…"
Cuban's ire was directed largely at MLB commissioner Bud Selig, accusing the longtime executive of questionable business practices. Cuban unsuccessfully attempted to buy the Texas Rangers in a bankruptcy auction back in 2010.
"It’s basically become Bud Selig’s mafia. He runs it the way he wants to run it… When I was trying to buy the Rangers, it was an open auction. And I sat in there with my good hard-earned money trying to bid and they did everything possible to keep me from buying the team. They had lawyers in their trying to change the rules, they had people trying to put up more money… it was horrible!"

Bathgate66

Im praying tonights game isnt rained out.
Wonder how A Rod will be received in the pinstripes.

Cliffy6745

THA fuck happened in here?

I would love a rainout tonight. Going to be in AC and not able to see it.

At least this team didn't do anything stupid to make a run. A fucking shame Mo is going out like this.

The last song here is awesome

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/ ... kup-music/

mickeyrat

RW81233 wrote:

JonnyPistachio wrote:

well, since its just entertainment, and there's no level playing field, and each player should just shoot themselves full of anything that makes them better...maybe one day, there will just be robots playing baseball. it'll be great.

This is where my logic has led me. If we can't level the playing field because it is systemically impossible why even try? And, for the record, baseball during the steroid era was motherfucking AWESOME. Bonds with 73 bombs, Gagne saving like 75 games in a row throwing dirty changeups to back up a 98 mph heater, Sosa going over 50 homers every year like it was nothing, pitching staffs that had like 6 relievers throwing 98+, and a couple starters up in that zone, players recovering from injury faster to keep us all entertained. I don't see why anyone laments a return to that.

Then they need to stop referring to the idea that it is as pure as mom and apple pie.

Truth in advertising as it were.

RW81233

Mickey I agree...there's never been anything pure about baseball. Well anything other than A-Rod's sweet swing against Justing Verlander

lukin2006

RW81233 wrote:

Mickey I agree...there's never been anything pure about baseball. Well anything other than A-Rod's sweet swing against Justing Verlander

Or Miggy's against Mariano .