well, the husband and i sat down to watch this doc last night....very good! a lot of it i already knew about as i read a lot on this topic, but there was still some fresh information in it. funny too, b/c i am always telling hubby stuff i read and yet...didn't really hit home until he watched this last night. it is amazing how our food production seemingly is in the hands of just a handful of corporations and that is a tragedy for both farmers and consumers alike. idk really how much we can change that, which is even scarier...
oh and after seeing it i can definitively say it is entirely focused on the USA food system. i would've seen this doc eventually, but thanks pj for getting it in my hands sooner.
well, the husband and i sat down to watch this doc last night....very good! a lot of it i already knew about as i read a lot on this topic, but there was still some fresh information in it. funny too, b/c i am always telling hubby stuff i read and yet...didn't really hit home until he watched this last night. it is amazing how our food production seemingly is in the hands of just a handful of corporations and that is a tragedy for both farmers and consumers alike. idk really how much we can change that, which is even scarier...
oh and after seeing it i can definitively say it is entirely focused on the USA food system. i would've seen this doc eventually, but thanks pj for getting it in my hands sooner.
so is it full of untruths then?
obviously i am no expert, but from all my readings.....no.
are there some? perhaps.
however, overall...i thought it was pretty accurate to what i've heard/known before.
also, it seems to me that 90% of the discussion in THIS thread does not even actually pertain to the documentary. if one knew NOTHING about the topic it may be shocking, but anyone who reads at ALL about health, nutrition and/or animal rights, factory farming.....really, the most surprising thing imo is the corporate control of our food supply, how farmers are very much dictated to if they are involved with these few corporations, etc. i really didn't think it painted farmers in a bad light at all. if anything, it made me feel a lot of sympathy for them. talk about being between a rock and a hard place! idk why one would even want to be a farmer today. seems a rough livelihood with not much payoff. as so many things, corporate interests seem to override all.
This doc. looks just like The Future of Food, which was very good, but I'm not going to watch Food, Inc. if it's basically the same info. Is it? Anyone? D2D?
So great that there is mass media production of the goings on in the food industry. Hopefully, this film will instigate some thought, conversation and change on what we put into our bodies. I have a strong belief that food is a connection to the earth and the world around you and the community aspect of culitivating your own food and preparing and sharing with your neighbors is very important to me. It needs to be out there that food wasn't meant to be manipulated for mass consumption. My life changed when I started consuming "whole" food and my community grew (in my own eyes) as I've started to meet the growers, farmers who raise the food I eat. It seems a more rich and full life now with some very basic changes.
Barbara Kingsolver has a wonderful book out - "animal, vegetable, miracle" and it took that book to open my eyes to the manipulation of the seed industry and thank goodness there are still purists who exist- (Seed Savers Exchange, Native Seeds, Heritage Farmers).
got a car...got some gas...oh let's get out of here-get out of here fast...
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
This doc. looks just like The Future of Food, which was very good, but I'm not going to watch Food, Inc. if it's basically the same info. Is it? Anyone? D2D?
i can't say as i've not seen the future of food. so no help there.
embrace - nice post!
i've seen that book and have considered picking it up a few times...perhaps i finally will!
way back when, when i was veggie....i read soooo many books on food, animal rights, factory farming, etc, etc. while i have not maintained that lifestyle, i do try to always find that ever elusive 'balance'...
just a few:
...
Most farms are corporate farms. Untrue: 98% of farms in the US are owned by individuals.
...
E Coli only exists because cattle eat corn. Untrue: E Coli exists in the digestive tract of all animals, whether grazing on pasture or fed grain.
Organic crops are better for you and the environment. Untrue: Farmers still have to spray these with "natural" pesticides that include things like copper and sulfur, but since they are less effective they have to use higher amounts which is worse for the environment and for you. People have DIED from this, no one has ever died because of "normal" pesticides used (like RoundUp).
Antibiotics aren't necessary for production of meat. Untrue: (if you can't afford $20 / lb for ground beef and $100 for a steak) Maintenance doses allow farmers to not use "therapeutic" doses when the animal gets sick. Therapeutic doses are dangerous to the person eating the animal. Maintenance doses are not.
...
1-The film doesn't say most American farmers are corporate. It recognizes that family farmers *have to* sell to large corporations regardless of whether the farms are "owned" by corporations.
2-The film did not say that "E Coli only exists because cattle eat corn," but it did say that e coli in their systems is vastly reduced when they switched to a grass diet for just a few days. This leaves even the possibility of feeding them corn to grown them, and then just switching them to grass for the last week of their lives before they are slaughtered so that less and less of things like this happen: http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/11/03/be ... ll.e.coli/
3-Whether "Organic crops are better for you and the environment" simply depends on how you define "Better." So it is simply unfair to say that it's "untrue." Organic crops may not be more nutritious, but whether they are "better" depends on what you mean by "better." That is all.
4-It is also unfair to say that it is "untrue" that "Antibiotics aren't necessary for production of meat." Assuming the film says that, (and I do not think it says anything against using antibiotics when an animal is sick), antibiotics simply are not necessary for the production of meat. Whether they're "necessary" for a large profitable farming business or for something else is another question. Also, it depends on what you mean by "necessary."
Frankly, I think Food, Inc. is an excellent film. A lot more balanced than Earthlings, which just makes you feel horrible and doesn't offer a whole lot of solutions.
decidestodream, as a third generation farmer, i greatly appreciate the empathy towards the American farmer.
Pres. Kenedy supposedly (I wasn't alive nor have I seen a transcript) gave speech once stating that the U.S. farmer is the only businessman that has no say in the price we pay for our inputs (i.e. Monsanto), and we have the prices paid for our goods dictated to us (ADM & Cargill).
Don't get me wrong, we have a little wiggle room for our fretilizers and seed, maybe 5-7%. And our fixed costs drive us to be Very mindful of the Chicago Board of Trade in pricing our grain. Large fertilizer companies nearly doubled their prices of fertilizers b/c of World demand this past growing season. Many farmers have tried to "wait out" the market in hopes the high cost of fertilizers goes back down.
Basically my point I'm getting to is that our high costs of doing business drives the industry towards larger operations so they can take advantage of economies of scale - both for farmers and the indusrties we do business. We farm 1,000 acres and we are one of the smaller operations in our end of our county. We are also 3rd generation Pioneer seed dealers, most of our key customers farm 2,500, 3,400, a couple at 5,000 and one at 6,000 acres. Now, if you were to meet these fine folks, they are Very nice common people. Many Are LLC corps., but only b/c they Are actually "family farms" thad had to form a corp. for tax purposes as the operation changed hands through the generations. Ad to this trend is the average age of the US farmer is very old. So as farmers retire, some of these larger farm operations end up renting the retired farmer's land.
And no, I'm not complaing. Farming is a Life Style choice as much as anything. It Is very rewarding to look at the end of the day and see the work you've done and know that ultimately you are helping to feed many.
I’ll say your prayers I’ll take your side
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
This doc. looks just like The Future of Food, which was very good, but I'm not going to watch Food, Inc. if it's basically the same info. Is it? Anyone? D2D?
i can't say as i've not seen the future of food. so no help there.
embrace - nice post!
i've seen that book and have considered picking it up a few times...perhaps i finally will!
way back when, when i was veggie....i read soooo many books on food, animal rights, factory farming, etc, etc. while i have not maintained that lifestyle, i do try to always find that ever elusive 'balance'...
(btw - sad i did not see you in philly!)
Hiya :wave: Missed seeing you as well - hopefully Spring!!! and we can share a bottle of red
If you are a reader you should def check it out- she weaves a personal quest (to eat everything local for 1 year) with a lot of fact about the corporate food system. It has a lot of the same truths that are relayed in Food Inc.
One of the most jaw-dropping stories involves a lawsuit in Canada where a large producer of commercial corn ends up suing small farmers on nearby farms because they are growing the genetically altered varietal (more "hardy" in their eyes) for which they own the rights...corn is pollinated in the air so its not that these farmers sought out the corn but that it ended up on their land due to proximity...It's the eye-opening, get it out to the masses which is so right on for me- Freedom of Speech and Thought and educate yourself at least some of these nasty "hidden truths" are seeing some sunlight.
got a car...got some gas...oh let's get out of here-get out of here fast...
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
One of the most jaw-dropping stories involves a lawsuit in Canada where a large producer of commercial corn ends up suing small farmers on nearby farms because they are growing the genetically altered varietal (more "hardy" in their eyes) for which they own the rights...corn is pollinated in the air so its not that these farmers sought out the corn but that it ended up on their land due to proximity...It's the eye-opening, get it out to the masses which is so right on for me- Freedom of Speech and Thought and educate yourself at least some of these nasty "hidden truths" are seeing some sunlight.
This was covered in The Future of Food. Which is why I'm wondering if Food, etc. is just a repetition somewhat from that documentary.
One of the most jaw-dropping stories involves a lawsuit in Canada where a large producer of commercial corn ends up suing small farmers on nearby farms because they are growing the genetically altered varietal (more "hardy" in their eyes) for which they own the rights...corn is pollinated in the air so its not that these farmers sought out the corn but that it ended up on their land due to proximity...It's the eye-opening, get it out to the masses which is so right on for me- Freedom of Speech and Thought and educate yourself at least some of these nasty "hidden truths" are seeing some sunlight.
This was covered in The Future of Food. Which is why I'm wondering if Food, etc. is just a repetition somewhat from that documentary.
I also heard about that case through a student presentation in one of my lectures last semester.
Absolutely insane. I think they won too didn't they?
One of the most jaw-dropping stories involves a lawsuit in Canada where a large producer of commercial corn ends up suing small farmers on nearby farms because they are growing the genetically altered varietal (more "hardy" in their eyes) for which they own the rights...corn is pollinated in the air so its not that these farmers sought out the corn but that it ended up on their land due to proximity...It's the eye-opening, get it out to the masses which is so right on for me- Freedom of Speech and Thought and educate yourself at least some of these nasty "hidden truths" are seeing some sunlight.
This was covered in The Future of Food. Which is why I'm wondering if Food, etc. is just a repetition somewhat from that documentary.
Right- She uses some of the same facts as fact basis for her story. I think though that part of the aim is to get the "big" stuff out there in every media form possible (ie- some ppl just don't read) and the lawsuit was a massive shocker hurting the small farmer for doing what?! I'm not familiar with future of food but I would bet that there are similarities in all of them as the root of the issue seems common. In the book (Animal Veg Miracle) the author also covers CAFO and the chicken plight. AVM is the author's personal experience of growing her own food, buying local and allows the reader to see how change could be made on a personal level if desired.
got a car...got some gas...oh let's get out of here-get out of here fast...
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
well, the husband and i sat down to watch this doc last night....very good! a lot of it i already knew about as i read a lot on this topic, but there was still some fresh information in it. funny too, b/c i am always telling hubby stuff i read and yet...didn't really hit home until he watched this last night. it is amazing how our food production seemingly is in the hands of just a handful of corporations and that is a tragedy for both farmers and consumers alike. idk really how much we can change that, which is even scarier...
oh and after seeing it i can definitively say it is entirely focused on the USA food system. i would've seen this doc eventually, but thanks pj for getting it in my hands sooner.
so is it full of untruths then?
obviously i am no expert, but from all my readings.....no.
are there some? perhaps.
however, overall...i thought it was pretty accurate to what i've heard/known before.
also, it seems to me that 90% of the discussion in THIS thread does not even actually pertain to the documentary. if one knew NOTHING about the topic it may be shocking, but anyone who reads at ALL about health, nutrition and/or animal rights, factory farming.....really, the most surprising thing imo is the corporate control of our food supply, how farmers are very much dictated to if they are involved with these few corporations, etc. i really didn't think it painted farmers in a bad light at all. if anything, it made me feel a lot of sympathy for them. talk about being between a rock and a hard place! idk why one would even want to be a farmer today. seems a rough livelihood with not much payoff. as so many things, corporate interests seem to override all.
Thanks D2D
Well rounded analysis... I'm unsure why sustainability-minded and family run farmers in this thread have taken such offense to what the documentary seems to be talking about. From the get-go I'm unsure if anyone was even criticizing them, especially if they are on the receiving end of large corporation's negative impacts.
I think it has to be stressed that you need to look beyond the borders of your own farm or your own country to realise what is happening. I know a lot of peasant farms get bought out in Latin America, with large corporations obtaining more and more land and lowering the prices for crops so local farmers cannot compete.
I'm no farmer so you might criticize me for not "knowing" anything, but my boyfriend is Guatemalan and this is exactly what happened to the land and coffee farm his parents owned in Guatemala.
One of the most jaw-dropping stories involves a lawsuit in Canada where a large producer of commercial corn ends up suing small farmers on nearby farms because they are growing the genetically altered varietal (more "hardy" in their eyes) for which they own the rights...corn is pollinated in the air so its not that these farmers sought out the corn but that it ended up on their land due to proximity...It's the eye-opening, get it out to the masses which is so right on for me- Freedom of Speech and Thought and educate yourself at least some of these nasty "hidden truths" are seeing some sunlight.
This was covered in The Future of Food. Which is why I'm wondering if Food, etc. is just a repetition somewhat from that documentary.
I also heard about that case through a student presentation in one of my lectures last semester.
Absolutely insane. I think they won too didn't they?
unfortuantely- yes-
"Monsanto also sued a Canadian farmer for using genetically engineered seeds. The farmer protested that the seeds had pollinated his land, and that it was not his fault. He lost. The court ruled that Monsanto's seeds are Monsanto's seeds, and that if you benefit from them, you should pay. [22] Monsanto has filed 138 intellectual property lawsuits over the past 10 years, and won all 9 cases that went to trial. [23] One reason that lawsuits are not more common is that Monsanto inserts something called a "terminator gene" into its crops to prevent them from cross pollinating. This also minimizes the risk of sustainable IP theft from developing countries that might ignore Monsanto's patents"
edit- thought Monsanto "won" Schmeiser didn't have to pay so it was considered a draw.
internet source - http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Monsanto_Company_(MON) - this link slays me because you can see the monster corporate giant that is Monsanto- they control the seeds and amazingly these seeds are resistant to most forms of disease- except those that can be treated with roundup (because they have to keep the sales up on that too ;0 )
Post edited by embrace on
got a car...got some gas...oh let's get out of here-get out of here fast...
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
obviously i am no expert, but from all my readings.....no.
are there some? perhaps.
however, overall...i thought it was pretty accurate to what i've heard/known before.
also, it seems to me that 90% of the discussion in THIS thread does not even actually pertain to the documentary. if one knew NOTHING about the topic it may be shocking, but anyone who reads at ALL about health, nutrition and/or animal rights, factory farming.....really, the most surprising thing imo is the corporate control of our food supply, how farmers are very much dictated to if they are involved with these few corporations, etc. i really didn't think it painted farmers in a bad light at all. if anything, it made me feel a lot of sympathy for them. talk about being between a rock and a hard place! idk why one would even want to be a farmer today. seems a rough livelihood with not much payoff. as so many things, corporate interests seem to override all.
Thanks D2D
Well rounded analysis... I'm unsure why sustainability-minded and family run farmers in this thread have taken such offense to what the documentary seems to be talking about. From the get-go I'm unsure if anyone was even criticizing them, especially if they are on the receiving end of large corporation's negative impacts.
I think it has to be stressed that you need to look beyond the borders of your own farm or your own country to realise what is happening. I know a lot of peasant farms get bought out in Latin America, with large corporations obtaining more and more land and lowering the prices for crops so local farmers cannot compete.
I'm no farmer so you might criticize me for not "knowing" anything, but my boyfriend is Guatemalan and this is exactly what happened to the land and coffee farm his parents owned in Guatemala.
i think, like many things...people "judge" without the first-hand experience. as in, many who are doing the omplaining, have not actually seen the film. and of those who did, perhaps they have their own deeply ingrained biases that they could not fully view it with an open mind? oftentimes, when one feels under attack or criticised, rightly or wrongly....it is difficult to be objective.
also, food inc. does not discuss the canadian issue discussed above. again, it focuses entirely on the USA. it also is quite braod. i think it's a great film for anyone truly unfamiliar with it all. it certainly is not the end-all, be-all, i think it sewrves it's role well - t- spark further thought, discussion, and perhaps action.
the thing that bothers me about this movie is that some of the claims are just outright lies. not based in science but using scare tactics instead. it's good to know where one's food comes from, and while michael pollan, who is involved in the movie, is a good writer, he's also a radical activist. an elitist one, the worst kind.
i just find it disappointing that pearl jam would back something like this without offering a counter-perspective, i.e. one that does involve some actual science. i work with a ce specialist who talks about ag biotech, and she's also a scientist, so we approach the issues from that point of view. the anti-gmo folks have some good points, but unfortunately a lot is just plain incorrect. i'l have to share some more links to help educate folks here when i have time, just because i feel that it is unfair to offer one side of the issue.
Embrace, I went to the link you provided and it provided several stories, but I didn't see the one regarding the "terminator gene" you spoke of. As a grower of both Round-Up Ready (RR)(TM) (( I put that in there so they won't sue me! )) corn and soybeans, please believe me when I tell you all that both products will readily reproduce from the grain they produce. I sell these products for a competitive company, Pioneer, and in meetings we have discussed this issue at length. We referred to it Monsanto making the grains be some how sterile. It is a known fact in our business group that the "terminator gene" is urban legend and another nasty rumor to come out of the Monsanto camp as a scare tactic towards growers.
To keep growers from saving back the RR soybeans as seed for next year, Monsanto makes growers sign a technology agreement stating they will Not save back grain as seed for the next crop year. This is where their lawyers get involved. If Monsanto would catch a grower saving seed the grower could face serious letigation and fines; reportedly up to a $1,000 an acre penalty on acres where the saved seed was planted.
When RR technology was launched, reportedly (again, urban legend?) it was said that Monsanto had budgeted more for attorny/letigation fees than it budgeted for research.
Though we are basically "forced" to do buniness w/ Monsanto, we refer to them as the "Evil Empire!"
I'll explain further later...
I’ll say your prayers I’ll take your side
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
Embrace, I went to the link you provided and it provided several stories, but I didn't see the one regarding the "terminator gene" you spoke of. As a grower of both Round-Up Ready (RR)(TM) (( I put that in there so they won't sue me! )) corn and soybeans, please believe me when I tell you all that both products will readily reproduce from the grain they produce. I sell these products for a competitive company, Pioneer, and in meetings we have discussed this issue at length. We referred to it Monsanto making the grains be some how sterile. It is a known fact in our business group that the "terminator gene" is urban legend and another nasty rumor to come out of the Monsanto camp as a scare tactic towards growers.
To keep growers from saving back the RR soybeans as seed for next year, Monsanto makes growers sign a technology agreement stating they will Not save back grain as seed for the next crop year. This is where their lawyers get involved. If Monsanto would catch a grower saving seed the grower could face serious letigation and fines; reportedly up to a $1,000 an acre penalty on acres where the saved seed was planted.
When RR technology was launched, reportedly (again, urban legend?) it was said that Monsanto had budgeted more for attorny/letigation fees than it budgeted for research.
Though we are basically "forced" to do buniness w/ Monsanto, we refer to them as the "Evil Empire!"
I'll explain further later...
I need to find the actual summation that I have because I am summarizing and do not want to mix facts. (back soon) What you write of is part of what needs to "get out there" because it seems you have a real world daily view on this- it seems silly to me that a farmer couldn't save seeds for replanting. Without purists and small farms or hobby growers we are actually at risk of losing plants, vegs and fruits that are "all naturals"/herilooms - the "extinction of purity" in my mind. I think that science has its place in this world but I also indulge in the pleasure of having something that was here on this planet and grew of its own will. I was jaw shocked when I discovered that the majority of seeds out there for purchase are actually altered in some way. Funny (and beautiful) to imagine corn actually is fairly gnarly in its natural state and multicolored- not the perfect shaped- neat rows- sun yellow we are used to seeing. Please share what you experience in the real world...I revert to caveman mentality on this topic...hunters and gatherers didn't have scientists or lawyers to help them feed their tribes. Will post my "facts" later today regarding my earlier post.
Post edited by embrace on
got a car...got some gas...oh let's get out of here-get out of here fast...
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
Embrace, I went to the link you provided and it provided several stories, but I didn't see the one regarding the "terminator gene" you spoke of. As a grower of both Round-Up Ready (RR)(TM) (( I put that in there so they won't sue me! )) corn and soybeans, please believe me when I tell you all that both products will readily reproduce from the grain they produce. I sell these products for a competitive company, Pioneer, and in meetings we have discussed this issue at length. We referred to it Monsanto making the grains be some how sterile. It is a known fact in our business group that the "terminator gene" is urban legend and another nasty rumor to come out of the Monsanto camp as a scare tactic towards growers.
To keep growers from saving back the RR soybeans as seed for next year, Monsanto makes growers sign a technology agreement stating they will Not save back grain as seed for the next crop year. This is where their lawyers get involved. If Monsanto would catch a grower saving seed the grower could face serious letigation and fines; reportedly up to a $1,000 an acre penalty on acres where the saved seed was planted.
When RR technology was launched, reportedly (again, urban legend?) it was said that Monsanto had budgeted more for attorny/letigation fees than it budgeted for research.
Though we are basically "forced" to do buniness w/ Monsanto, we refer to them as the "Evil Empire!"
I'll explain further later...
my ref to "terminator" was actually enclosed in the quote from the link I provided- the info I have on "terminator" states that the "terminator gene" is a unnatural product of genetic engineering and it causes the crop to "commit genetic suicide" after one generation thus causing the grower to buy more of these seeds year after year rather than taking the time to save and replant ... BUT if I am reading you right, this is not true- the plant CAN reproduce? (goes to show that there is hard evidence on both sides because I do pretty good homework
got a car...got some gas...oh let's get out of here-get out of here fast...
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
Embrace, thanks for nice exchange. This is the dialogue I was hoping for when I started this thread.
I really have only watched the trailer to Food Inc., and it really fired me up. This type of work focuses on the anomalies of the ag industry, NOT the norm.
I saw a previous post you made referring to CAFO's. Though my experiences with poultry production is less than minimal, my family raised hogs for several years. I have good friends with CAFO swine units, and believe me, they would embrace concerned citizens to call ahead and visit. Hogs are Very smart creatures. These feeding units are designed to be ergonomically as confortable for the hogs as possible. For example, these hogs have a roof to protect them from the elements, and are provided heat in enclosed buildingsin the cold midwestern winters, and the same buildings can be opened up in the summer, and are ventilated with large fans about the size of airplane propellers. I can provide more details later, but just know hogs defecate at one end of their long pens, and eat and sleep at the opposite end (I can't keep the song "Rats" outta my head now-thanks). I told ya, they're smart...and tasty, sorry..."that's how I feel."
We as an animal husbandry industry most definitely need to do a much better job of policing thyself. Nothing pisses me off more than irresponsible producers who do not take care of their animals. Seeing too many horses in a lot where the horses have little to eat, that Really fires me up. The whole Michael Vick ordeal, NOT what any livestock producer wanted to hear. That whole tragedy just fans the flames of groups like PETA.
I’ll say your prayers I’ll take your side
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
Embrace, thanks for nice exchange. This is the dialogue I was hoping for when I started this thread.
I really have only watched the trailer to Food Inc., and it really fired me up. This type of work focuses on the anomalies of the ag industry, NOT the norm.
I saw a previous post you made referring to CAFO's. Though my experiences with poultry production is less than minimal, my family raised hogs for several years. I have good friends with CAFO swine units, and believe me, they would embrace concerned citizens to call ahead and visit. Hogs are Very smart creatures. These feeding units are designed to be ergonomically as confortable for the hogs as possible. For example, these hogs have a roof to protect them from the elements, and are provided heat in enclosed buildingsin the cold midwestern winters, and the same buildings can be opened up in the summer, and are ventilated with large fans about the size of airplane propellers. I can provide more details later, but just know hogs deficate at one end of their long pens, and eat and sleep at the opposite end (I can't keep the song "Rats" outta my head now-thanks). I told ya, they're smart...and tasty, sorry..."that's how I feel."
We as an animal husbandry industry most definitely need to do a much better job of policing thyself. Nothing pisses me off more than irresponsible producers who do not take care of their animals. Seeing too many horses in a lot where the horses have little to eat, that Really fires me up. The whole Michael Vick ordeal, NOT what any livestock producer wanted to hear. That whole tragedy just fans the flames of groups like PETA.
I will admit - don't know much about hog CAFOs and I haven't visited one for cows(note to self for field trip) BUT I am hard up against them. Chickens standing in their excrement and bred to have massive breasts so they can't stand up and their legs break under their weight saddens me- never seeing the light of day...is food so important that this is the only way. Cows on corn and in tight quarters ... its just not for me. I have the choice and I choose not to eat these bi-products of the industry...
The importance of this film to me lies in getting facts out there or triggering someone just to think about where their food comes from and to make the choice to consume or not. We can't avoid giants like Monsanto (or other corporate monopolies) but we can make personal changes.
got a car...got some gas...oh let's get out of here-get out of here fast...
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
Embrace, yep unfortunately I believe your "terminator gene" theory to be false. When I saw your site started w/ the "wiki" preface, I thought to myself, "oh boy, this should be good." Goofballs can ad whatever they want on there.
I could easily get pictures of what we call "volunteer corn," which is corn that comes up growing in our soybean fields the next crop year (we rotate corn-soybeans every other year). Now the fun part, we plant RR (tm) corn, so the ears we miss at harvest this fall will sprout next year and show up "vulentarily" in our, yes you guessed it, they show up in our RR (tm) soybean fields the next year. Sooo, we get to ad another chemical to our spray mix next summer to get what is basically another weed out there. Soybean processors we sell our grain to don't like volunteer corn grain in the soybeans, we get docked or discounted for it.
In our recently harvested soybean fields, if any soybeans are spilled, many times you'll see little sprouts of beans a week or so later, especially where we load our semi.
embrace you seem to be very well spoken and smart, we'll have to exchange more later...i have Got to get back out to the farm.
this Food Inc thread is my crack this week...and that damn Gitmo thread...you ladies are much friendlier :P
I’ll say your prayers I’ll take your side
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
ok, another quick one.
embrace check what i posted on another thread.
Beef cattle feed lots large or small allow cattle to walk about their lots. A large "corporate" feed lot is made up of many consecutive pens, many a half an acre to an acre (about the size of many lots houses sit upon).
Most video coverage is of "feeding time" when the cattle are being fed in a long bunk, where they are sticking their head through a gate to eat. When they are done, they are free to "roam" about their pen. Many producers have large dirt mounds in these pens that allow the cattle to seek "high ground" when it rains.
Many large dairy operations have gone to a similar method of feeding their milk cows. Many times you see similar footage of the cows eating, but they are free to move about when they are done. Many states have out-lawed "tethered" feeding practices of any livestock.
I could arrange a visit to any number of cattle feed lots, whenever you plan your field trip
I also will find a site or two, let alone a DVD i once had.
I’ll say your prayers I’ll take your side
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
internet source - http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Monsanto_Company_(MON) - this link slays me because you can see the monster corporate giant that is Monsanto- they control the seeds and amazingly these seeds are resistant to most forms of disease- except those that can be treated with roundup (because they have to keep the sales up on that too ;0 )
Embrace, I went to the link you provided and it provided several stories, but I didn't see the one regarding the "terminator gene" you spoke of. As a grower of both Round-Up Ready (RR)(TM) (( I put that in there so they won't sue me! )) corn and soybeans, please believe me when I tell you all that both products will readily reproduce from the grain they produce. I sell these products for a competitive company, Pioneer, and in meetings we have discussed this issue at length. We referred to it Monsanto making the grains be some how sterile. It is a known fact in our business group that the "terminator gene" is urban legend and another nasty rumor to come out of the Monsanto camp as a scare tactic towards growers.
To keep growers from saving back the RR soybeans as seed for next year, Monsanto makes growers sign a technology agreement stating they will Not save back grain as seed for the next crop year. This is where their lawyers get involved. If Monsanto would catch a grower saving seed the grower could face serious letigation and fines; reportedly up to a $1,000 an acre penalty on acres where the saved seed was planted.
When RR technology was launched, reportedly (again, urban legend?) it was said that Monsanto had budgeted more for attorny/letigation fees than it budgeted for research. Though we are basically "forced" to do buniness w/ Monsanto, we refer to them as the "Evil Empire!"I'll explain further later...
So, you've been forced to farm with Monsanto, that's what you're saying, vedderman, right? You also sell genetically created seed for Pioneer, which is really Monsanto seed, obviously, correct? I'm saying this because Monsanto has basically created the one true monopoly of genetically created seeds, and is pretty much taking over the world at this point. Round Up and Monsanta have quite the business partnership, as seen in The Future of Food, I can't really put it well into words here, but basically, Round Up will kill everything in it's path EXCEPT the Monsanto seeds. Keeps them both in business and very profitable. I don't remember anything about the terminator gene, it didn't stick out to me. But what I remember specifically is that Monsanto won't let farmers keep their original seeds, which can be up to hundreds of years old: their original seeds that farmers have made a living on. Once Monsanto gets a hold of a farmers crop, and livelyhood, they force these farmers to destroy all of their original seed, therefore the only seed being used to grow our corn, soybeans, etc. is owned by Monsanto. We're all consuming genetically modified food. And if all the farmers are bought / sued out of their original seed, well, Monsanto will rule the world. There will be no "original" seeds left. So what will we be eating exactly? What's in these seeds? That's what the documentaries are about, is that we truly don't know what we're eating. (Almost) everything we think is true to form because it comes from a farm, is really coming from a lab!
ok, another quick one.
embrace check what i posted on another thread.
Beef cattle feed lots large or small allow cattle to walk about their lots. A large "corporate" feed lot is made up of many consecutive pens, many a half an acre to an acre (about the size of many lots houses sit upon).
Most video coverage is of "feeding time" when the cattle are being fed in a long bunk, where they are sticking their head through a gate to eat. When they are done, they are free to "roam" about their pen. Many producers have large dirt mounds in these pens that allow the cattle to seek "high ground" when it rains.
Many large dairy operations have gone to a similar method of feeding their milk cows. Many times you see similar footage of the cows eating, but they are free to move about when they are done. Many states have out-lawed "tethered" feeding practices of any livestock.
I could arrange a visit to any number of cattle feed lots, whenever you plan your field trip
I also will find a site or two, let alone a DVD i once had.
ha- mb we can arrange a group field trip- I'm def in! Keep the info coming- I love it but I know there are nasty situations out there and I feel that cows/chix etc would be less stressed and thus taste better if they are free to roam (I know I do better when I'm out in nature and the world rather than being couped up in an office.) I am into the idea of buying a cow from a local farmer who feeds on grass and either splitting the cow with my friends and neighbors (and I mean the entire cow) or I really dig on the idea of having my own and using it as long as I can for milk and land cultivation and then consumation when necessary- more the lion in the pride/circle of life view than world domination and green disease ( ) Many countries have animals goats/cows etc which are part of the family and they've worked to purchase and come the day they sacrifice for the well-being of their family...hmmm "walking the cow" comes to mind...
got a car...got some gas...oh let's get out of here-get out of here fast...
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
Jeanwah, you ask some very good questions...where to start?
When genetic suppliers are breeding both soybean and seed corn, we refer to the modification as an "event."
Monsanto (w/ funding from Pioneer, a DuPont Co.) developed the RR (tm) traits, they then in turn let all seed companies purchase their "event" to breed into our existing genetics. That's where the technology fee that Monsanto charges the seed co.'s, then we charge our customer, the farmer. There in-lies farmers resentment for Monsanto, they pay BOTH the tech fee, and then for the Round Up itself. A monopoly for sure. Some representatives in D.C. are looking into an anti-trust suite aimed at Monsanto.
By the way, the "event" is what is registered with the Federal Patent office. Which brings me to the next little known fact. The chemical that is Round-Up, generically known as Glyphosate, well R-Up in it's original form lost it's exclusive patent status a few years ago. Just about any chemical company could manufacture it and sell it to farmers. Guess what country got into the generic glyphosate market? U guessed it, CHINA. Here's the kicker, Monsanto then made a bold move almost 2 yrs ago. Yep, they started buying up the generic manufacturers all over. HELLO more anti-trust fodder.
The R-Up you might see advertised and the R-Up you can buy to kill weeds on your property, well that is still glyphosate but with crop oils and surfactents added to it. Basically those are very harmless additives that helps the glyphosate stick to the leaves better and thus work more effectively and faster.
Monsanto never forced or asked growers to destroy any soybean seed we kept back (we used to call it "bin-run" seed). The use and acceptance of the technology just made the bin run seed obsolete. Growers did not want run the risk of getting it mixed up and then spray the wrong field and inadvertently kill a whole field of non RR (tm) soybeans.
When I said we were "forced" to use and accept the RR (tm) technology, I was speaking as a farmer. Here's the snenario: R-up makes fields clean of weeds in a Very Effective manner. So if your neighbors' fields are all clean as a pin, the you look like a half-ass farmer. AND these older retired farmer land-lords, they pay attention to this. And, to be honest, the shit works Really well.
Growers do have the option to raise non R-Up crops. The soybeans as grain prolly gets made into tufu for all I know. We, as Pioneer dealers, have a couple large growers that raise these non GMO beans for about a $0.50 premium per bushel.
And just know, companies like Pioneer (one of the oldest seed companies) still have a Huge inventory of older seed genetics. Also ag universities like Purdue, Univ of Illinois and Iowa State used to be providers of soybean seed to farmers. I am very confident they a large inventory of older seed.
I can post info on how we breed seed corn and how hybrid seed corn is bred...yes bred, we cross different inbreds to make the seed corn we plant.
Also, guess what company has bought up many older smaller regional seed companies like Crowes and Golden Harvest? I'll give you 2 guesses...
Post edited by vedderman71 on
I’ll say your prayers I’ll take your side
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
i can't believe the band handed this shit out to people.
no one forced you to take it....
don't compete; coexist
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
the thing that bothers me about this movie is that some of the claims are just outright lies. not based in science but using scare tactics instead. it's good to know where one's food comes from, and while michael pollan, who is involved in the movie, is a good writer, he's also a radical activist. an elitist one, the worst kind.
i just find it disappointing that pearl jam would back something like this without offering a counter-perspective, i.e. one that does involve some actual science. i work with a ce specialist who talks about ag biotech, and she's also a scientist, so we approach the issues from that point of view. the anti-gmo folks have some good points, but unfortunately a lot is just plain incorrect. i'l have to share some more links to help educate folks here when i have time, just because i feel that it is unfair to offer one side of the issue.
The thing that bothers me about your post is that I'm still looking for an "outright lie" in the film. I think calling Pollan "a radical activist. an elitist one, the worst kind" doesn't prove that anyone is lying.
Beef cattle feed lots large or small allow cattle to walk about their lots. A large "corporate" feed lot is made up of many consecutive pens, many a half an acre to an acre (about the size of many lots houses sit upon).
Most video coverage is of "feeding time" when the cattle are being fed in a long bunk, where they are sticking their head through a gate to eat. When they are done, they are free to "roam" about their pen. Many producers have large dirt mounds in these pens that allow the cattle to seek "high ground" when it rains.
Many large dairy operations have gone to a similar method of feeding their milk cows. Many times you see similar footage of the cows eating, but they are free to move about when they are done. Many states have out-lawed "tethered" feeding practices of any livestock.
showing them during feeding time isn't a lie, particularly if it's shown during the part of the film when they're talking about what the cattle eat. Having driven past many of these large feed lots, and seeing what a waste of the earth they are and not being able to breathe for miles around them, I don't consider them any more humane than tethering them, and they are certainly not "good" for the planet, in my definition of "good."
Anyway, I saw this article today, and it made me come back to this thread...
"Farmers feed 1 million to 2 million tons of poultry litter to their cattle annually, according to FDA estimates."
poultry litter includes feces, spilled chicken feed, feathers and poultry farm detritus http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-f ... 7725.story
In watching the trailer, yes I could tell you as an Ag Education major and Animal Science minor that this film would present many anomolies, Not the normal conditions of the majority of growers. For instance, the quick image of cattle in a lot (the first 1/3rd, couldn't get a time), that image bothers me as being very unclean, and Not the norm. That producer needs to clean up his farm.
If anything, if this type of film and movement forces our industry to do a better job of "policing thyself" then some good Can come out of this film for our industry.
Also the statement that the ag industry does Not want the public to know what is in their food or what goes into your foods, I couldn't dissagree more. Many of us embrace the public coming out to visit the farm or our feedlots.
GlttrGrrl, i Did read your link. Unfortunately poultry manure is very high in urea, and cattle, their unique 4 chambered stomach can break down the urea and use it as protein. Again, I can't say we would feed our cattle poultry manure or would any good producer I know would either. A good friend of mine from college has a masters in ruminant nutrition, I'll send him an e-mail and ask how common this feeding practice is and if he would recommend it in a ration.
And..you wrote this:
"Having driven past many of these large feed lots, and seeing what a waste of the earth they are and not being able to breathe for miles around them, I don't consider them any more humane than tethering them, and they are certainly not "good" for the planet, in my definition of "good.""
It is obviously your choice to not eat beef, but if those cattle provide nutrition to several thousand people, then I can't see them as a "waste of space." Sorry if the smell bothers you, but when I travel to many major cities, it smells like a mix of puke and ass to me, so are those humans living there a waste as well? ha, j/k, just tryin to make a counter point...
I’ll say your prayers I’ll take your side
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
Comments
so is it full of untruths then?
obviously i am no expert, but from all my readings.....no.
are there some? perhaps.
however, overall...i thought it was pretty accurate to what i've heard/known before.
also, it seems to me that 90% of the discussion in THIS thread does not even actually pertain to the documentary. if one knew NOTHING about the topic it may be shocking, but anyone who reads at ALL about health, nutrition and/or animal rights, factory farming.....really, the most surprising thing imo is the corporate control of our food supply, how farmers are very much dictated to if they are involved with these few corporations, etc. i really didn't think it painted farmers in a bad light at all. if anything, it made me feel a lot of sympathy for them. talk about being between a rock and a hard place! idk why one would even want to be a farmer today. seems a rough livelihood with not much payoff. as so many things, corporate interests seem to override all.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
So great that there is mass media production of the goings on in the food industry. Hopefully, this film will instigate some thought, conversation and change on what we put into our bodies. I have a strong belief that food is a connection to the earth and the world around you and the community aspect of culitivating your own food and preparing and sharing with your neighbors is very important to me. It needs to be out there that food wasn't meant to be manipulated for mass consumption. My life changed when I started consuming "whole" food and my community grew (in my own eyes) as I've started to meet the growers, farmers who raise the food I eat. It seems a more rich and full life now with some very basic changes.
Barbara Kingsolver has a wonderful book out - "animal, vegetable, miracle" and it took that book to open my eyes to the manipulation of the seed industry and thank goodness there are still purists who exist- (Seed Savers Exchange, Native Seeds, Heritage Farmers).
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
i can't say as i've not seen the future of food. so no help there.
embrace - nice post!
i've seen that book and have considered picking it up a few times...perhaps i finally will!
way back when, when i was veggie....i read soooo many books on food, animal rights, factory farming, etc, etc. while i have not maintained that lifestyle, i do try to always find that ever elusive 'balance'...
(btw - sad i did not see you in philly!)
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
(or if you believe your response is entirely accurate)
1-The film doesn't say most American farmers are corporate. It recognizes that family farmers *have to* sell to large corporations regardless of whether the farms are "owned" by corporations.
2-The film did not say that "E Coli only exists because cattle eat corn," but it did say that e coli in their systems is vastly reduced when they switched to a grass diet for just a few days. This leaves even the possibility of feeding them corn to grown them, and then just switching them to grass for the last week of their lives before they are slaughtered so that less and less of things like this happen: http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/11/03/be ... ll.e.coli/
3-Whether "Organic crops are better for you and the environment" simply depends on how you define "Better." So it is simply unfair to say that it's "untrue." Organic crops may not be more nutritious, but whether they are "better" depends on what you mean by "better." That is all.
4-It is also unfair to say that it is "untrue" that "Antibiotics aren't necessary for production of meat." Assuming the film says that, (and I do not think it says anything against using antibiotics when an animal is sick), antibiotics simply are not necessary for the production of meat. Whether they're "necessary" for a large profitable farming business or for something else is another question. Also, it depends on what you mean by "necessary."
Frankly, I think Food, Inc. is an excellent film. A lot more balanced than Earthlings, which just makes you feel horrible and doesn't offer a whole lot of solutions.
Pres. Kenedy supposedly (I wasn't alive nor have I seen a transcript) gave speech once stating that the U.S. farmer is the only businessman that has no say in the price we pay for our inputs (i.e. Monsanto), and we have the prices paid for our goods dictated to us (ADM & Cargill).
Don't get me wrong, we have a little wiggle room for our fretilizers and seed, maybe 5-7%. And our fixed costs drive us to be Very mindful of the Chicago Board of Trade in pricing our grain. Large fertilizer companies nearly doubled their prices of fertilizers b/c of World demand this past growing season. Many farmers have tried to "wait out" the market in hopes the high cost of fertilizers goes back down.
Basically my point I'm getting to is that our high costs of doing business drives the industry towards larger operations so they can take advantage of economies of scale - both for farmers and the indusrties we do business. We farm 1,000 acres and we are one of the smaller operations in our end of our county. We are also 3rd generation Pioneer seed dealers, most of our key customers farm 2,500, 3,400, a couple at 5,000 and one at 6,000 acres. Now, if you were to meet these fine folks, they are Very nice common people. Many Are LLC corps., but only b/c they Are actually "family farms" thad had to form a corp. for tax purposes as the operation changed hands through the generations. Ad to this trend is the average age of the US farmer is very old. So as farmers retire, some of these larger farm operations end up renting the retired farmer's land.
And no, I'm not complaing. Farming is a Life Style choice as much as anything. It Is very rewarding to look at the end of the day and see the work you've done and know that ultimately you are helping to feed many.
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
Hiya :wave: Missed seeing you as well - hopefully Spring!!! and we can share a bottle of red
If you are a reader you should def check it out- she weaves a personal quest (to eat everything local for 1 year) with a lot of fact about the corporate food system. It has a lot of the same truths that are relayed in Food Inc.
One of the most jaw-dropping stories involves a lawsuit in Canada where a large producer of commercial corn ends up suing small farmers on nearby farms because they are growing the genetically altered varietal (more "hardy" in their eyes) for which they own the rights...corn is pollinated in the air so its not that these farmers sought out the corn but that it ended up on their land due to proximity...It's the eye-opening, get it out to the masses which is so right on for me- Freedom of Speech and Thought and educate yourself at least some of these nasty "hidden truths" are seeing some sunlight.
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
Absolutely insane. I think they won too didn't they?
Right- She uses some of the same facts as fact basis for her story. I think though that part of the aim is to get the "big" stuff out there in every media form possible (ie- some ppl just don't read) and the lawsuit was a massive shocker hurting the small farmer for doing what?! I'm not familiar with future of food but I would bet that there are similarities in all of them as the root of the issue seems common. In the book (Animal Veg Miracle) the author also covers CAFO and the chicken plight. AVM is the author's personal experience of growing her own food, buying local and allows the reader to see how change could be made on a personal level if desired.
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
Thanks D2D
Well rounded analysis... I'm unsure why sustainability-minded and family run farmers in this thread have taken such offense to what the documentary seems to be talking about. From the get-go I'm unsure if anyone was even criticizing them, especially if they are on the receiving end of large corporation's negative impacts.
I think it has to be stressed that you need to look beyond the borders of your own farm or your own country to realise what is happening. I know a lot of peasant farms get bought out in Latin America, with large corporations obtaining more and more land and lowering the prices for crops so local farmers cannot compete.
I'm no farmer so you might criticize me for not "knowing" anything, but my boyfriend is Guatemalan and this is exactly what happened to the land and coffee farm his parents owned in Guatemala.
unfortuantely- yes-
"Monsanto also sued a Canadian farmer for using genetically engineered seeds. The farmer protested that the seeds had pollinated his land, and that it was not his fault. He lost. The court ruled that Monsanto's seeds are Monsanto's seeds, and that if you benefit from them, you should pay. [22] Monsanto has filed 138 intellectual property lawsuits over the past 10 years, and won all 9 cases that went to trial. [23] One reason that lawsuits are not more common is that Monsanto inserts something called a "terminator gene" into its crops to prevent them from cross pollinating. This also minimizes the risk of sustainable IP theft from developing countries that might ignore Monsanto's patents"
edit- thought Monsanto "won" Schmeiser didn't have to pay so it was considered a draw.
internet source - http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/Monsanto_Company_(MON) - this link slays me because you can see the monster corporate giant that is Monsanto- they control the seeds and amazingly these seeds are resistant to most forms of disease- except those that can be treated with roundup (because they have to keep the sales up on that too ;0 )
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
i think, like many things...people "judge" without the first-hand experience. as in, many who are doing the omplaining, have not actually seen the film. and of those who did, perhaps they have their own deeply ingrained biases that they could not fully view it with an open mind? oftentimes, when one feels under attack or criticised, rightly or wrongly....it is difficult to be objective.
also, food inc. does not discuss the canadian issue discussed above. again, it focuses entirely on the USA. it also is quite braod. i think it's a great film for anyone truly unfamiliar with it all. it certainly is not the end-all, be-all, i think it sewrves it's role well - t- spark further thought, discussion, and perhaps action.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
i just find it disappointing that pearl jam would back something like this without offering a counter-perspective, i.e. one that does involve some actual science. i work with a ce specialist who talks about ag biotech, and she's also a scientist, so we approach the issues from that point of view. the anti-gmo folks have some good points, but unfortunately a lot is just plain incorrect. i'l have to share some more links to help educate folks here when i have time, just because i feel that it is unfair to offer one side of the issue.
To keep growers from saving back the RR soybeans as seed for next year, Monsanto makes growers sign a technology agreement stating they will Not save back grain as seed for the next crop year. This is where their lawyers get involved. If Monsanto would catch a grower saving seed the grower could face serious letigation and fines; reportedly up to a $1,000 an acre penalty on acres where the saved seed was planted.
When RR technology was launched, reportedly (again, urban legend?) it was said that Monsanto had budgeted more for attorny/letigation fees than it budgeted for research.
Though we are basically "forced" to do buniness w/ Monsanto, we refer to them as the "Evil Empire!"
I'll explain further later...
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
I need to find the actual summation that I have because I am summarizing and do not want to mix facts. (back soon) What you write of is part of what needs to "get out there" because it seems you have a real world daily view on this- it seems silly to me that a farmer couldn't save seeds for replanting. Without purists and small farms or hobby growers we are actually at risk of losing plants, vegs and fruits that are "all naturals"/herilooms - the "extinction of purity" in my mind. I think that science has its place in this world but I also indulge in the pleasure of having something that was here on this planet and grew of its own will. I was jaw shocked when I discovered that the majority of seeds out there for purchase are actually altered in some way. Funny (and beautiful) to imagine corn actually is fairly gnarly in its natural state and multicolored- not the perfect shaped- neat rows- sun yellow we are used to seeing. Please share what you experience in the real world...I revert to caveman mentality on this topic...hunters and gatherers didn't have scientists or lawyers to help them feed their tribes. Will post my "facts" later today regarding my earlier post.
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
my ref to "terminator" was actually enclosed in the quote from the link I provided- the info I have on "terminator" states that the "terminator gene" is a unnatural product of genetic engineering and it causes the crop to "commit genetic suicide" after one generation thus causing the grower to buy more of these seeds year after year rather than taking the time to save and replant ... BUT if I am reading you right, this is not true- the plant CAN reproduce? (goes to show that there is hard evidence on both sides because I do pretty good homework
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
I really have only watched the trailer to Food Inc., and it really fired me up. This type of work focuses on the anomalies of the ag industry, NOT the norm.
I saw a previous post you made referring to CAFO's. Though my experiences with poultry production is less than minimal, my family raised hogs for several years. I have good friends with CAFO swine units, and believe me, they would embrace concerned citizens to call ahead and visit. Hogs are Very smart creatures. These feeding units are designed to be ergonomically as confortable for the hogs as possible. For example, these hogs have a roof to protect them from the elements, and are provided heat in enclosed buildingsin the cold midwestern winters, and the same buildings can be opened up in the summer, and are ventilated with large fans about the size of airplane propellers. I can provide more details later, but just know hogs defecate at one end of their long pens, and eat and sleep at the opposite end (I can't keep the song "Rats" outta my head now-thanks). I told ya, they're smart...and tasty, sorry..."that's how I feel."
We as an animal husbandry industry most definitely need to do a much better job of policing thyself. Nothing pisses me off more than irresponsible producers who do not take care of their animals. Seeing too many horses in a lot where the horses have little to eat, that Really fires me up. The whole Michael Vick ordeal, NOT what any livestock producer wanted to hear. That whole tragedy just fans the flames of groups like PETA.
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
I will admit - don't know much about hog CAFOs and I haven't visited one for cows(note to self for field trip) BUT I am hard up against them. Chickens standing in their excrement and bred to have massive breasts so they can't stand up and their legs break under their weight saddens me- never seeing the light of day...is food so important that this is the only way. Cows on corn and in tight quarters ... its just not for me. I have the choice and I choose not to eat these bi-products of the industry...
The importance of this film to me lies in getting facts out there or triggering someone just to think about where their food comes from and to make the choice to consume or not. We can't avoid giants like Monsanto (or other corporate monopolies) but we can make personal changes.
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
I could easily get pictures of what we call "volunteer corn," which is corn that comes up growing in our soybean fields the next crop year (we rotate corn-soybeans every other year). Now the fun part, we plant RR (tm) corn, so the ears we miss at harvest this fall will sprout next year and show up "vulentarily" in our, yes you guessed it, they show up in our RR (tm) soybean fields the next year. Sooo, we get to ad another chemical to our spray mix next summer to get what is basically another weed out there. Soybean processors we sell our grain to don't like volunteer corn grain in the soybeans, we get docked or discounted for it.
In our recently harvested soybean fields, if any soybeans are spilled, many times you'll see little sprouts of beans a week or so later, especially where we load our semi.
embrace you seem to be very well spoken and smart, we'll have to exchange more later...i have Got to get back out to the farm.
this Food Inc thread is my crack this week...and that damn Gitmo thread...you ladies are much friendlier :P
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
embrace check what i posted on another thread.
Beef cattle feed lots large or small allow cattle to walk about their lots. A large "corporate" feed lot is made up of many consecutive pens, many a half an acre to an acre (about the size of many lots houses sit upon).
Most video coverage is of "feeding time" when the cattle are being fed in a long bunk, where they are sticking their head through a gate to eat. When they are done, they are free to "roam" about their pen. Many producers have large dirt mounds in these pens that allow the cattle to seek "high ground" when it rains.
Many large dairy operations have gone to a similar method of feeding their milk cows. Many times you see similar footage of the cows eating, but they are free to move about when they are done. Many states have out-lawed "tethered" feeding practices of any livestock.
I could arrange a visit to any number of cattle feed lots, whenever you plan your field trip
I also will find a site or two, let alone a DVD i once had.
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
So, you've been forced to farm with Monsanto, that's what you're saying, vedderman, right? You also sell genetically created seed for Pioneer, which is really Monsanto seed, obviously, correct? I'm saying this because Monsanto has basically created the one true monopoly of genetically created seeds, and is pretty much taking over the world at this point. Round Up and Monsanta have quite the business partnership, as seen in The Future of Food, I can't really put it well into words here, but basically, Round Up will kill everything in it's path EXCEPT the Monsanto seeds. Keeps them both in business and very profitable. I don't remember anything about the terminator gene, it didn't stick out to me. But what I remember specifically is that Monsanto won't let farmers keep their original seeds, which can be up to hundreds of years old: their original seeds that farmers have made a living on. Once Monsanto gets a hold of a farmers crop, and livelyhood, they force these farmers to destroy all of their original seed, therefore the only seed being used to grow our corn, soybeans, etc. is owned by Monsanto. We're all consuming genetically modified food. And if all the farmers are bought / sued out of their original seed, well, Monsanto will rule the world. There will be no "original" seeds left. So what will we be eating exactly? What's in these seeds? That's what the documentaries are about, is that we truly don't know what we're eating. (Almost) everything we think is true to form because it comes from a farm, is really coming from a lab!
ha- mb we can arrange a group field trip- I'm def in! Keep the info coming- I love it but I know there are nasty situations out there and I feel that cows/chix etc would be less stressed and thus taste better if they are free to roam (I know I do better when I'm out in nature and the world rather than being couped up in an office.) I am into the idea of buying a cow from a local farmer who feeds on grass and either splitting the cow with my friends and neighbors (and I mean the entire cow) or I really dig on the idea of having my own and using it as long as I can for milk and land cultivation and then consumation when necessary- more the lion in the pride/circle of life view than world domination and green disease (
I hope you get this message but your not home...I will be there in just a minute or so...
I want to go but I want to go with you.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime. -MT
I've had enough, said enough, felt enough. I'm fine, still in it.
When genetic suppliers are breeding both soybean and seed corn, we refer to the modification as an "event."
Monsanto (w/ funding from Pioneer, a DuPont Co.) developed the RR (tm) traits, they then in turn let all seed companies purchase their "event" to breed into our existing genetics. That's where the technology fee that Monsanto charges the seed co.'s, then we charge our customer, the farmer. There in-lies farmers resentment for Monsanto, they pay BOTH the tech fee, and then for the Round Up itself. A monopoly for sure. Some representatives in D.C. are looking into an anti-trust suite aimed at Monsanto.
By the way, the "event" is what is registered with the Federal Patent office. Which brings me to the next little known fact. The chemical that is Round-Up, generically known as Glyphosate, well R-Up in it's original form lost it's exclusive patent status a few years ago. Just about any chemical company could manufacture it and sell it to farmers. Guess what country got into the generic glyphosate market? U guessed it, CHINA. Here's the kicker, Monsanto then made a bold move almost 2 yrs ago. Yep, they started buying up the generic manufacturers all over. HELLO more anti-trust fodder.
The R-Up you might see advertised and the R-Up you can buy to kill weeds on your property, well that is still glyphosate but with crop oils and surfactents added to it. Basically those are very harmless additives that helps the glyphosate stick to the leaves better and thus work more effectively and faster.
Monsanto never forced or asked growers to destroy any soybean seed we kept back (we used to call it "bin-run" seed). The use and acceptance of the technology just made the bin run seed obsolete. Growers did not want run the risk of getting it mixed up and then spray the wrong field and inadvertently kill a whole field of non RR (tm) soybeans.
When I said we were "forced" to use and accept the RR (tm) technology, I was speaking as a farmer. Here's the snenario: R-up makes fields clean of weeds in a Very Effective manner. So if your neighbors' fields are all clean as a pin, the you look like a half-ass farmer. AND these older retired farmer land-lords, they pay attention to this. And, to be honest, the shit works Really well.
Growers do have the option to raise non R-Up crops. The soybeans as grain prolly gets made into tufu for all I know. We, as Pioneer dealers, have a couple large growers that raise these non GMO beans for about a $0.50 premium per bushel.
And just know, companies like Pioneer (one of the oldest seed companies) still have a Huge inventory of older seed genetics. Also ag universities like Purdue, Univ of Illinois and Iowa State used to be providers of soybean seed to farmers. I am very confident they a large inventory of older seed.
I can post info on how we breed seed corn and how hybrid seed corn is bred...yes bred, we cross different inbreds to make the seed corn we plant.
Also, guess what company has bought up many older smaller regional seed companies like Crowes and Golden Harvest? I'll give you 2 guesses...
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime
no one forced you to take it....
what are you but my reflection? who am i to judge or strike you down?
"I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank." - Barack Obama
when you told me 'if you can't beat 'em, join 'em'
i was thinkin 'death before dishonor'
The thing that bothers me about your post is that I'm still looking for an "outright lie" in the film. I think calling Pollan "a radical activist. an elitist one, the worst kind" doesn't prove that anyone is lying.
Even the following isn't a lie:
showing them during feeding time isn't a lie, particularly if it's shown during the part of the film when they're talking about what the cattle eat. Having driven past many of these large feed lots, and seeing what a waste of the earth they are and not being able to breathe for miles around them, I don't consider them any more humane than tethering them, and they are certainly not "good" for the planet, in my definition of "good."
Anyway, I saw this article today, and it made me come back to this thread...
"Farmers feed 1 million to 2 million tons of poultry litter to their cattle annually, according to FDA estimates."
poultry litter includes feces, spilled chicken feed, feathers and poultry farm detritus
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-f ... 7725.story
If anything, if this type of film and movement forces our industry to do a better job of "policing thyself" then some good Can come out of this film for our industry.
Also the statement that the ag industry does Not want the public to know what is in their food or what goes into your foods, I couldn't dissagree more. Many of us embrace the public coming out to visit the farm or our feedlots.
GlttrGrrl, i Did read your link. Unfortunately poultry manure is very high in urea, and cattle, their unique 4 chambered stomach can break down the urea and use it as protein. Again, I can't say we would feed our cattle poultry manure or would any good producer I know would either. A good friend of mine from college has a masters in ruminant nutrition, I'll send him an e-mail and ask how common this feeding practice is and if he would recommend it in a ration.
And..you wrote this:
"Having driven past many of these large feed lots, and seeing what a waste of the earth they are and not being able to breathe for miles around them, I don't consider them any more humane than tethering them, and they are certainly not "good" for the planet, in my definition of "good.""
It is obviously your choice to not eat beef, but if those cattle provide nutrition to several thousand people, then I can't see them as a "waste of space." Sorry if the smell bothers you, but when I travel to many major cities, it smells like a mix of puke and ass to me, so are those humans living there a waste as well?
I promise a way to make light...
What's saved could be one last lifetime