I'm just annoyed there was no Columbus Day parade in Philly this year which is a big Italian American holiday in South Philly. I guess after 50 years of uncontested Democratic rule (which to many here would be a utopia but in reality is the murder capital of America), the city is finally bankrupt. The New Year's Day parade and St. Patrick's Day parade were almost canceled earlier this year too. And the Steuben's Day, Pulaski Day and Puerto Rican Day parades were cut in half.
I get your point, I was really just wondering when some of you here would propose to teach the 100% truth.
I know this was for someone else... but my answer would be TODAY. Yes, including all the stuff that would be uncomfortable... as long as it is relevant.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
I get your point, I was really just wondering when some of you here would propose to teach the 100% truth.
I know this was for someone else... but my answer would be TODAY. Yes, including all the stuff that would be uncomfortable... as long as it is relevant.
Not at what date, but at what age? Should we teach 2nd graders about raping and pillaging?
My whole life
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
I don't think it is news to most people that Columbus didn't really do much, or anything, to deserve a national holiday.
Yes, there were Viking settlements in Newfoundland I think around 1000 CE. (Year 2706 of our Lady Discord, 969 years before the Era of Tranquility).
There is evidence of trade between the Egyptians and Mayans (Incans?) 2000 years before that. (see coca and coffee remnants - not found outside S. America - found in Egyptian tombs)
So, it seems that the Americas were discovered AT LEAST 500 years before Columbus and probably more like 2500 years before Columbus... not to mention the fact that people traveled across Asia 25,000 years ago and discovered the Americas.
...and it's possible that the Chinese were here before the Europeans....but the reason that Columbus's voyages matter is that they began the mass-movement of Europeans to the continents...and the extinction of many of the natives. Everybody else came and went without making a permanent mark (e.g. the Vikings).
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
I don't think it is news to most people that Columbus didn't really do much, or anything, to deserve a national holiday.
Yes, there were Viking settlements in Newfoundland I think around 1000 CE. (Year 2706 of our Lady Discord, 969 years before the Era of Tranquility).
There is evidence of trade between the Egyptians and Mayans (Incans?) 2000 years before that. (see coca and coffee remnants - not found outside S. America - found in Egyptian tombs)
So, it seems that the Americas were discovered AT LEAST 500 years before Columbus and probably more like 2500 years before Columbus... not to mention the fact that people traveled across Asia 25,000 years ago and discovered the Americas.
...and it's possible that the Chinese were here before the Europeans....but the reason that Columbus's voyages matter is that they began the mass-movement of Europeans to the continents...and the extinction of many of the natives. Everybody else came and went without making a permanent mark (e.g. the Vikings).
yeah I would agree that his voyages "matter" in that regard, but I said that he "didn't really do much, or anything, to deserve a national holiday."
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
yeah I would agree that his voyages "matter" in that regard, but I said that he "didn't really do much, or anything, to deserve a national holiday."
Take that up with the Italian-American lobby or the Roman Catholic lobby or the Knights of Columbus lobby....Most of us had no say in the matter. :twisted:
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
yeah I would agree that his voyages "matter" in that regard, but I said that he "didn't really do much, or anything, to deserve a national holiday."
Take that up with the Italian-American lobby or the Roman Catholic lobby or the Knights of Columbus lobby....Most of us had no say in the matter. :twisted:
we don't do anything around here to make changes... we just bitch
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
yeah I would agree that his voyages "matter" in that regard, but I said that he "didn't really do much, or anything, to deserve a national holiday."
Take that up with the Italian-American lobby or the Roman Catholic lobby or the Knights of Columbus lobby....Most of us had no say in the matter. :twisted:
we don't do anything around here to make changes... we just bitch
Not bitching about anything....only reason that I was off is because Monday is my scheduled day off anyway....hell, Columbus Day is so far off the radar...that the best way to deal with it is to ignore it...just another paid "holiday" that government employees get instead of a pay raise.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
And as I pointed out, Columbus's actions have ramifications even today. From the prison sentence of Lenoard Peltier
I'm not seeing the link between Columbus and an FBI shootout in North Dakota
the link between columbus and the modern day enslavement and degradation of native americans I think is pretty damn self evident.
A society and culture that disrespects and treats native americans as less than human and worthy of being slaughtered, is the same culture whether we are in the 1400's or are in 2009.
As I said, the Fighting Illinis and their supporters, or the supporters who think that the mascot and the dance the mascot performs are acceptable, are essentially doing the same thing that people did in Columbus' day, which is to make the Native American the other, to marginalize, trivialize and exploit the Native American culture.
If you are willing to have a mascot and dance that completely degrades a culture, it isnt a huge leap to not care when a Native American named Leonard Peltier spends 20 plus years in jail.
A former friend of the family who was active in trying to free Peltier once told me that she had spoken to the FBI and police involved in this case, and that they had admitted that Peltier was innocent and that they knew this, and frankly didnt care.
The line from Columbus to the modern day, with all its capitalist exploitation, globalization, environmental degradation, is a straight line
A society and culture that disrespects and treats native americans as less than human and worthy of being slaughtered, is the same culture whether we are in the 1400's or are in 2009.
As I said, the Fighting Illinis and their supporters, or the supporters who think that the mascot and the dance the mascot performs are acceptable, are essentially doing the same thing that people did in Columbus' day, which is to make the Native American the other, to marginalize, trivialize and exploit the Native American culture.
A) No, this is NOT the same culture that existed in the 1400s...not by a long shot. That culture was tightly ruled by a single form of a single religion. Anything outside of those narrow confines was deemed unacceptable...and destroyed by the church through its control of the royal households of Europe. Human rights did not exist in any shape or form.
The Illini are extinct as a tribe. They are gone....and they ain't coming back. Florida State pays the Seminole tribe for the use of the mascot. Now, "Redskins"...yes, that is offensive.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
A society and culture that disrespects and treats native americans as less than human and worthy of being slaughtered, is the same culture whether we are in the 1400's or are in 2009.
As I said, the Fighting Illinis and their supporters, or the supporters who think that the mascot and the dance the mascot performs are acceptable, are essentially doing the same thing that people did in Columbus' day, which is to make the Native American the other, to marginalize, trivialize and exploit the Native American culture.
A) No, this is NOT the same culture that existed in the 1400s...not by a long shot. That culture was tightly ruled by a single form of a single religion. Anything outside of those narrow confines was deemed unacceptable...and destroyed by the church through its control of the royal households of Europe. Human rights did not exist in any shape or form.
The Illini are extinct as a tribe. They are gone....and they ain't coming back. Florida State pays the Seminole tribe for the use of the mascot. Now, "Redskins"...yes, that is offensive.
the Illini mascot is offensive. I am not sure how you can say it isnt. The mascot comes out, during halftime and does this "authentic indian dance" and its billed as such. The mascot does this dance, and it obviously isnt a native american dance at all, its made up, and its disrespectful. Imagine being a native american in that crowd, being proud as hell about being native american, and you expect to see what it is billed as "an authentic and true honoring of the dances of Native Americans" and then to have this idiot in a costume blatantly disrespect and spit on your culture. I cant imagine it. So yeah, that is beyond offensive to me. Its gross. Is it alright for a restauraunt to have an african american with big lips as its logo? Would you say that was okay?
Do yourself a favor and go watch the dance this mascot does, and go watch some interviews with actual Native Americans who respond to the Illinis mascot and how it makes them feel. Then come back here and tell us about what you feel.
Your right things have changed since the 1400's, but alot hasnt. I made the point multiple times about the conditions in the reservations, the mascot issue, ward churchill being called a liar and fired because he said native americans were given small pox blankets, and leonard peltiers prison sentence. All these are modern day examples of egregious and unthinkable treatment on the part of larger society to modern day Native Americans.
My point is as I said, self evident. You really think we as a society in 2009, treat native americans and Native American culture with the respect and honor it deserves? Have we as a society really done squat, to rectify even in a small way, our ancestors genocide of the Native Americans? Have we accepted completely what actually was done to the native americans, taking into account what I mentioned, about how Ward Churchill was treated when he talked about the small pox blankets. How about the issue of peyote and religion, and about how the government still doesnt allow native americans to use peyote for religious purposes. Are we really treating the indigeonous cultures, wherever they may be, in other parts of the world with respect and compassion?
A society that allows someone like Peltier to waste away in prison, is completely analogous to the the society that existed in columbus' time. In the 1400's native american and indigenous people were subhuman, worthless and werent worthy of respect. In 2009, we still have people like tybird, suggesting that mascots that are overtly offensive are acceptable, because "the illinis are gone and arent coming back".
A society and culture that disrespects and treats native americans as less than human and worthy of being slaughtered, is the same culture whether we are in the 1400's or are in 2009.
As I said, the Fighting Illinis and their supporters, or the supporters who think that the mascot and the dance the mascot performs are acceptable, are essentially doing the same thing that people did in Columbus' day, which is to make the Native American the other, to marginalize, trivialize and exploit the Native American culture.
A) No, this is NOT the same culture that existed in the 1400s...not by a long shot. That culture was tightly ruled by a single form of a single religion. Anything outside of those narrow confines was deemed unacceptable...and destroyed by the church through its control of the royal households of Europe. Human rights did not exist in any shape or form.
The Illini are extinct as a tribe. They are gone....and they ain't coming back. Florida State pays the Seminole tribe for the use of the mascot. Now, "Redskins"...yes, that is offensive.
the Illini mascot is offensive. I am not sure how you can say it isnt. The mascot comes out, during halftime and does this "authentic indian dance" and its billed as such. The mascot does this dance, and it obviously isnt a native american dance at all, its made up, and its disrespectful. Imagine being a native american in that crowd, being proud as hell about being native american, and you expect to see what it is billed as "an authentic and true honoring of the dances of Native Americans" and then to have this idiot in a costume blatantly disrespect and spit on your culture. I cant imagine it. So yeah, that is beyond offensive to me. Its gross. Is it alright for a restauraunt to have an african american with big lips as its logo? Would you say that was okay?
Do yourself a favor and go watch the dance this mascot does, and go watch some interviews with actual Native Americans who respond to the Illinis mascot and how it makes them feel. Then come back here and tell us about what you feel.
Your right things have changed since the 1400's, but alot hasnt. I made the point multiple times about the conditions in the reservations, the mascot issue, ward churchill being called a liar and fired because he said native americans were given small pox blankets, and leonard peltiers prison sentence. All these are modern day examples of egregious and unthinkable treatment on the part of larger society to modern day Native Americans.
My point is as I said, self evident. You really think we as a society in 2009, treat native americans and Native American culture with the respect and honor it deserves? Have we as a society really done squat, to rectify even in a small way, our ancestors genocide of the Native Americans? Have we accepted completely what actually was done to the native americans, taking into account what I mentioned, about how Ward Churchill was treated when he talked about the small pox blankets. How about the issue of peyote and religion, and about how the government still doesnt allow native americans to use peyote for religious purposes. Are we really treating the indigeonous cultures, wherever they may be, in other parts of the world with respect and compassion?
A society that allows someone like Peltier to waste away in prison, is completely analogous to the the society that existed in columbus' time. In the 1400's native american and indigenous people were subhuman, worthless and werent worthy of respect. In 2009, we still have people like tybird, suggesting that mascots that are overtly offensive are acceptable, because "the illinis are gone and arent coming back".
Ignorant much?
It's a fucking mascot, Mr. Aintgotalife....there are NO Illini to be offended by it...if it were the Sioux or some other extant tribe....it would be offensive.....The use of of the "Fightin' Sioux by one of the universities in South Dakota is offensive for example. Your attachment to the Illini mascot is undefendable. Repeat after me.....there are no Illini left to offend....there are no Illini to offend
You best watch calling people offensive names.
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Speaking as someone who respects and values Native cultures (an insider via marriage? I don't know ...), I can understand some of the concerns around venerating Columbus ... At the same time, is acknowledging a darn pretty significant period in the history of this continent really only a bad thing? No one talks seriously about packing up and heading back to Europe, so maybe some form of acknowledgment that Europeans arrived is OK?
what's interesting is that in this thread columbus is apparently 100% responsible for ALL our choices, for our capitalistic society, acting entirely on his own, etc. that's quite laughable really. columbus was a product of his times. if he didn't do it, someone else would've. europeans regularly waged war with one another, and history even further back shows how many european tribes did try to eliminate others, etc. i am not dismissing the wrong-doings, certainly not suggesting they are/were 'right'...just simply looking at it all in context.
i do believe children could easily be taught the truth, in degrees. there is no reason to go into the gory details, but certainly could show how columbus would up here, the whys of it, the culture of europe at the time and that yes....it lead to great bloodshed of indigineous peoples. the more detailed explanations could await HS, but young children don't need to be presented with a false history either. columbus is not alone is such behaviors either, he just got the most press. i believe, mistakenly, "columbus day" is meant to be looked upon as the birth of our country, but it really shouldn't be. thus, you bet, should not be 'celebrated' with a national holiday. we have independence day. that works just fine.
Burning Spear has always had it right: Christopher Columbus is a damn blasted liar!
CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS (by Burning Spear)
Cristopher Columbus is a damn blasted liar
Cristopher Columbus is a damn blasted liar, yes Jah
He say 'im that he's the first one
Who discover Jamaica, I an' I say that:
What about the Awarak indians ?
And the few black man who were down here before him ?
The indians could'n hang on a long long
Here comes black man an'oman an' children
A ina Jam Dung run ya
Whole heap a mix up, mix up
Whole heap a ben up, ben up
Ha fi straighten out
Cristopher Columbus is a damn blasted liar
Cristopher Columbus is a damn blasted liar, yes Jah
What a long stay from home
I an' I longing to go home
Within a red, green an' gold robe
Come on, twelve tribe of Israel
Come on, twelve tribe of Israel
A outa Jam Dung land ya
A whole heap a mix up, mix up
A whole heap a ben up, ben up
Come on, twelve tribe of Israel
Come on, twelve tribe of Israel
A outa Jam Dung land ya, yes Jah
Cristopher Columbus is a damn blasted liar
Cristopher Columbus is a damn blasted liar, yes Jah
He's a liar, yes Jah
He's a liar, yes Jah
Columbus he's a liar, yes Jah
I was alone and far away when I heard the band start playing!
...I was always a DeadHead, but when I first heard Winston Rodney, aka the Burning Spear, sing, I became a SpearHead too!
Not bitching about anything....only reason that I was off is because Monday is my scheduled day off anyway....hell, Columbus Day is so far off the radar...that the best way to deal with it is to ignore it...just another paid "holiday" that government employees get instead of a pay raise.
Maybe for you that's all it represents. Though I doubt that's all it represents for everyone in the U.S.
what's interesting is that in this thread columbus is apparently 100% responsible for ALL our choices, for our capitalistic society, acting entirely on his own, etc. that's quite laughable really.
what's interesting is that in this thread columbus is apparently 100% responsible for ALL our choices, for our capitalistic society, acting entirely on his own, etc. that's quite laughable really.
guess i should've been more specific in pointing to the OP's many points - and sure, i over-dramatized with my comments, b/c i felt others were over-dramatized:
The line from Columbus to the modern day, with all its capitalist exploitation, globalization, environmental degradation, is a straight line
that 'straight line' is not only from columbus, but the society he came from. the responsibilty of all that, therefore, does not lie at the feet of columbus, but at the society that spawned it all.
and as to the columbus/hitler comparison....ummm....really?
columbus behaved in ways - deplorable to us - but totally acceptible to his times. hitler did not. therein lies the difference to me. columbus did many, many horrendous things, i don't think anyone here denies that, nor believes he as a man deserves to be 'celebrated'...but to think he acted outside the norm of his times seems incorrect. hilter, on the other hand, very much stepped outside what was acceptible. thus why hitler was villified within his own lifetime, was fought and defeated...whereas columbus certainly was not. hitler made his choices on his own and then gathered those to support him, whereas columbus was acting on the behalf of spain, no? thus why i suggest he was a product of his times. it's all context. that's all.
and as to the columbus/hitler comparison....ummm....really?
columbus behaved in ways - deplorable to us - but totally acceptible to his times. hitler did not. therein lies the difference to me. columbus did many, many horrendous things, i don't think anyone here denies that, nor believes he as a man deserves to be 'celebrated'...but to think he acted outside the norm of his times seems incorrect. hilter, on the other hand, very much stepped outside what was acceptible. thus why hitler was villified within his own lifetime, was fought and defeated...whereas columbus certainly was not. hitler made his choices on his own and then gathered those to support him, whereas columbus was acting on the behalf of spain, no? thus why i suggest he was a product of his times. it's all context. that's all.
Firstly, how do you know that Columbus's actions were considered 'totally acceptable' by the people of that time? Sounds like a bit of a generalization to me. They certainly weren't acceptable to the people on the receiving end.
Secondly, Hitlers actions were considered acceptable by many millions of people. He was a product of his times, just as King Leopold of Belgium was a product of his times when he murdered between 15 and 30 million Congolese at the turn of the 20th Century. Also at the turn of the century up to 1 million Armenians were massacred by the Turks. Hitler's actions therefore weren't anything out of the ordinary. Hitler was a product of his times in much the same way as Columbus. Hitler didn't emerge out of a vacuum in history. To suppose that he did is pretty naive. That period in history also produced Stalin, and the Japanese leadership in the East who were responsible for many atrocities, including the rape of Nanjing in 1937.
and as to the columbus/hitler comparison....ummm....really?
columbus behaved in ways - deplorable to us - but totally acceptible to his times. hitler did not. therein lies the difference to me. columbus did many, many horrendous things, i don't think anyone here denies that, nor believes he as a man deserves to be 'celebrated'...but to think he acted outside the norm of his times seems incorrect. hilter, on the other hand, very much stepped outside what was acceptible. thus why hitler was villified within his own lifetime, was fought and defeated...whereas columbus certainly was not. hitler made his choices on his own and then gathered those to support him, whereas columbus was acting on the behalf of spain, no? thus why i suggest he was a product of his times. it's all context. that's all.
Firstly, how do you know that Columbus's actions were considered 'totally acceptable' by the people of that time? Sounds like a bit of a generalization to me. They certainly weren't acceptable to the people on the receiving end.
Secondly, Hitlers actions were considered acceptable by many millions of people. He was a product of his times, just as King Leopold of Belgium was a product of his times when he murdered between 15 and 30 million Congolese at the turn of the 20th Century. Also at the turn of the century up to 1 million Armenians were massacred by the Turks. Hitler's actions therefore weren't anything out of the ordinary. Hitler was a product of his times in much the same way as Columbus. Hitler didn't emerge out of a vacuum in history. To suppose that he did is pretty naive. That period in history also produced Stalin, and the Japanese leadership in the East who were responsible for many atrocities, including the rape of Nanjing in 1937.
it is a generalization. and yes, it is about his own culture finding it perfectly acceptable, as in, europe. obviously not the native populations.
as to hitler, again, no naivete. of course he didn't grow up in a vacuum, but nor did anyone else in his culture, and yet they all didn't decide they wanted to ethnically cleanse the world of jews. he did. sure, many did support him and his ideas...but they were his ideas. there are horrific people in all time periods within history. the difference i was pointing to was that within those times periods, were these evil people lauded or villified within their lifetimes? did their socieites encourage or fight against their actions? thus again, context.
also if you read my entire first post in this thread, i ws in no way dismissing colubus's atrocities, and did specifically say he does not deserve celebrating. i just do not simply believe that b/c of him and his actions, that the world is an evil place, that there is this 'direct line' from him to our current issues today. if one wants to point to the european society of that time period as the beginnings, sure...i can go with that. but to lie it at the feet of one evil man, who i do not believe was even considered evil by his own wider society, just doesn't fit imo.
from another columbus thread in AET started by the OP.
(ty i hope you don't mind me borrowing your words)
what European wasn't an Imperialist Bastard in the 1400's?
The poor folks in the Balkans weren't.....under Ottoman rule at the time....hey, it was a totally different world...we really shouldn't judge people from 500 years ago based on contemporary morals and standards.
When you live in an iron-clad society, thinking outside of the box most often resulted in a public execution. You tend to take everything that society tells you with a granite-like belief...that includes classifying those of different skin color, religion and origin as less than human....actually no better than wild animals. It's still no excuse for rape and murder, but I can see the reasoning behind some of their actions. However, folks like Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot......they knew what they were doing....and that it was wrong.
kinda sums it up for me, in the most direct, simplistic way.
disagree, fine, it's merely my persepective on it.
from another columbus thread in AET started by the OP.
(ty i hope you don't mind me borrowing your words)
You are more than welcome, darling...great minds think alike, eh :twisted:
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
there are horrific people in all time periods within history. the difference i was pointing to was that within those times periods, were these evil people lauded or villified within their lifetimes? did their socieites encourage or fight against their actions? thus again, context.
I expect that if the majority of people were aware of what was happening that they'd have been appalled. Maybe the fact that they didn't have t.v and newspapers back then is a factor worth considering. There's nothing to suggest that people 600 years ago were any different to us, despite the fact that they didn't have stripy toothpaste and atom bombs.
[ There's nothing to suggest that people 600 years ago were any different to us
Really? I find it hard to believe that you actually believe what you just wrote.
I'm certain that people 600 years ago were very different from the people today as the environment and society they lived in was completely different. Unless you think that has no effect on someone's personality and what they believe to be right or wrong.
[ There's nothing to suggest that people 600 years ago were any different to us
Really? I find it hard to believe that you actually believe what you just wrote.
I'm certain that people 600 years ago were very different from the people today as the environment and society they lived in was completely different. Unless you think that has no effect on someone's personality and what they believe to be right or wrong.
600 years isn't such a long time.
There are plenty of books out there which were written 1000 years ago and which deal with concerns no different to what we experience today - the fact that they used swords instead of guns notwithstanding.
Also, Shakespeare lived just 500 years ago. Do you think that he, and the people who appreciated his plays, were so much different to the people of today? If so, then why is his work still so relevant to us?
Why was Cervantes' book 'Don Quixote' recently voted the most influential novel of all time by the worlds major writers? To believe that people 500 or 1000 years ago were so different to us is just lazy thinking.
Don Quixote is the world's best book say the world's top authors
he Guardian, Wednesday 8 May 2002
'Don Quixote, the tale of a Spanish knight driven mad by reading too many chivalric romances, was yesterday voted the best book of all time in a survey of around 100 of the world's best authors.
"If there is one novel you should read before you die, it is Don Quixote," the Nigerian author Ben Okri said at the Norwegian Nobel Institute as he announced the results of history's most expansive authors' poll. "Don Quixote has the most wonderful and elaborated story, yet it is simple."
Around 100 well-known authors from 54 countries voted for the "most meaningful book of all time" in a poll organised by editors at the Norwegian Book Clubs in Oslo...
Miguel de Cervantes' tale of misguided heroism gained 50% more votes than any other book, eclipsing works by Shakespeare, Homer and Tolstoy. '
If Chris was such a bad guy...how come Jamaica is using a quote from him in their current TV ad campaign???? :roll:
All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a thousand enemies, and whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first they must catch you, digger, listener, runner, prince with the swift warning. Be cunning and full of tricks and your people shall never be destroyed.
Comments
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I know this was for someone else... but my answer would be TODAY. Yes, including all the stuff that would be uncomfortable... as long as it is relevant.
Not at what date, but at what age? Should we teach 2nd graders about raping and pillaging?
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
my answer would be high school ...
yeah I would agree that his voyages "matter" in that regard, but I said that he "didn't really do much, or anything, to deserve a national holiday."
we don't do anything around here to make changes... we just bitch
the link between columbus and the modern day enslavement and degradation of native americans I think is pretty damn self evident.
A society and culture that disrespects and treats native americans as less than human and worthy of being slaughtered, is the same culture whether we are in the 1400's or are in 2009.
As I said, the Fighting Illinis and their supporters, or the supporters who think that the mascot and the dance the mascot performs are acceptable, are essentially doing the same thing that people did in Columbus' day, which is to make the Native American the other, to marginalize, trivialize and exploit the Native American culture.
If you are willing to have a mascot and dance that completely degrades a culture, it isnt a huge leap to not care when a Native American named Leonard Peltier spends 20 plus years in jail.
A former friend of the family who was active in trying to free Peltier once told me that she had spoken to the FBI and police involved in this case, and that they had admitted that Peltier was innocent and that they knew this, and frankly didnt care.
The line from Columbus to the modern day, with all its capitalist exploitation, globalization, environmental degradation, is a straight line
the Illini mascot is offensive. I am not sure how you can say it isnt. The mascot comes out, during halftime and does this "authentic indian dance" and its billed as such. The mascot does this dance, and it obviously isnt a native american dance at all, its made up, and its disrespectful. Imagine being a native american in that crowd, being proud as hell about being native american, and you expect to see what it is billed as "an authentic and true honoring of the dances of Native Americans" and then to have this idiot in a costume blatantly disrespect and spit on your culture. I cant imagine it. So yeah, that is beyond offensive to me. Its gross. Is it alright for a restauraunt to have an african american with big lips as its logo? Would you say that was okay?
Do yourself a favor and go watch the dance this mascot does, and go watch some interviews with actual Native Americans who respond to the Illinis mascot and how it makes them feel. Then come back here and tell us about what you feel.
Your right things have changed since the 1400's, but alot hasnt. I made the point multiple times about the conditions in the reservations, the mascot issue, ward churchill being called a liar and fired because he said native americans were given small pox blankets, and leonard peltiers prison sentence. All these are modern day examples of egregious and unthinkable treatment on the part of larger society to modern day Native Americans.
My point is as I said, self evident. You really think we as a society in 2009, treat native americans and Native American culture with the respect and honor it deserves? Have we as a society really done squat, to rectify even in a small way, our ancestors genocide of the Native Americans? Have we accepted completely what actually was done to the native americans, taking into account what I mentioned, about how Ward Churchill was treated when he talked about the small pox blankets. How about the issue of peyote and religion, and about how the government still doesnt allow native americans to use peyote for religious purposes. Are we really treating the indigeonous cultures, wherever they may be, in other parts of the world with respect and compassion?
A society that allows someone like Peltier to waste away in prison, is completely analogous to the the society that existed in columbus' time. In the 1400's native american and indigenous people were subhuman, worthless and werent worthy of respect. In 2009, we still have people like tybird, suggesting that mascots that are overtly offensive are acceptable, because "the illinis are gone and arent coming back".
Ignorant much?
You best watch calling people offensive names.
i do believe children could easily be taught the truth, in degrees. there is no reason to go into the gory details, but certainly could show how columbus would up here, the whys of it, the culture of europe at the time and that yes....it lead to great bloodshed of indigineous peoples. the more detailed explanations could await HS, but young children don't need to be presented with a false history either. columbus is not alone is such behaviors either, he just got the most press. i believe, mistakenly, "columbus day" is meant to be looked upon as the birth of our country, but it really shouldn't be. thus, you bet, should not be 'celebrated' with a national holiday. we have independence day. that works just fine.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
CHRISTOPHER COLUMBUS (by Burning Spear)
Cristopher Columbus is a damn blasted liar
Cristopher Columbus is a damn blasted liar, yes Jah
He say 'im that he's the first one
Who discover Jamaica, I an' I say that:
What about the Awarak indians ?
And the few black man who were down here before him ?
The indians could'n hang on a long long
Here comes black man an'oman an' children
A ina Jam Dung run ya
Whole heap a mix up, mix up
Whole heap a ben up, ben up
Ha fi straighten out
Cristopher Columbus is a damn blasted liar
Cristopher Columbus is a damn blasted liar, yes Jah
What a long stay from home
I an' I longing to go home
Within a red, green an' gold robe
Come on, twelve tribe of Israel
Come on, twelve tribe of Israel
A outa Jam Dung land ya
A whole heap a mix up, mix up
A whole heap a ben up, ben up
Come on, twelve tribe of Israel
Come on, twelve tribe of Israel
A outa Jam Dung land ya, yes Jah
Cristopher Columbus is a damn blasted liar
Cristopher Columbus is a damn blasted liar, yes Jah
He's a liar, yes Jah
He's a liar, yes Jah
Columbus he's a liar, yes Jah
...I was always a DeadHead, but when I first heard Winston Rodney, aka the Burning Spear, sing, I became a SpearHead too!
Maybe for you that's all it represents. Though I doubt that's all it represents for everyone in the U.S.
Really? I must have missed that.
So was Hitler.
that 'straight line' is not only from columbus, but the society he came from. the responsibilty of all that, therefore, does not lie at the feet of columbus, but at the society that spawned it all.
and as to the columbus/hitler comparison....ummm....really?
columbus behaved in ways - deplorable to us - but totally acceptible to his times. hitler did not. therein lies the difference to me. columbus did many, many horrendous things, i don't think anyone here denies that, nor believes he as a man deserves to be 'celebrated'...but to think he acted outside the norm of his times seems incorrect. hilter, on the other hand, very much stepped outside what was acceptible. thus why hitler was villified within his own lifetime, was fought and defeated...whereas columbus certainly was not. hitler made his choices on his own and then gathered those to support him, whereas columbus was acting on the behalf of spain, no? thus why i suggest he was a product of his times. it's all context. that's all.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
Firstly, how do you know that Columbus's actions were considered 'totally acceptable' by the people of that time? Sounds like a bit of a generalization to me. They certainly weren't acceptable to the people on the receiving end.
Secondly, Hitlers actions were considered acceptable by many millions of people. He was a product of his times, just as King Leopold of Belgium was a product of his times when he murdered between 15 and 30 million Congolese at the turn of the 20th Century. Also at the turn of the century up to 1 million Armenians were massacred by the Turks. Hitler's actions therefore weren't anything out of the ordinary. Hitler was a product of his times in much the same way as Columbus. Hitler didn't emerge out of a vacuum in history. To suppose that he did is pretty naive. That period in history also produced Stalin, and the Japanese leadership in the East who were responsible for many atrocities, including the rape of Nanjing in 1937.
it is a generalization. and yes, it is about his own culture finding it perfectly acceptable, as in, europe. obviously not the native populations.
as to hitler, again, no naivete. of course he didn't grow up in a vacuum, but nor did anyone else in his culture, and yet they all didn't decide they wanted to ethnically cleanse the world of jews. he did. sure, many did support him and his ideas...but they were his ideas. there are horrific people in all time periods within history. the difference i was pointing to was that within those times periods, were these evil people lauded or villified within their lifetimes? did their socieites encourage or fight against their actions? thus again, context.
also if you read my entire first post in this thread, i ws in no way dismissing colubus's atrocities, and did specifically say he does not deserve celebrating. i just do not simply believe that b/c of him and his actions, that the world is an evil place, that there is this 'direct line' from him to our current issues today. if one wants to point to the european society of that time period as the beginnings, sure...i can go with that. but to lie it at the feet of one evil man, who i do not believe was even considered evil by his own wider society, just doesn't fit imo.
from another columbus thread in AET started by the OP.
(ty i hope you don't mind me borrowing your words)
kinda sums it up for me, in the most direct, simplistic way.
disagree, fine, it's merely my persepective on it.
Let's just breathe...
I am myself like you somehow
I expect that if the majority of people were aware of what was happening that they'd have been appalled. Maybe the fact that they didn't have t.v and newspapers back then is a factor worth considering. There's nothing to suggest that people 600 years ago were any different to us, despite the fact that they didn't have stripy toothpaste and atom bombs.
Really? I find it hard to believe that you actually believe what you just wrote.
I'm certain that people 600 years ago were very different from the people today as the environment and society they lived in was completely different. Unless you think that has no effect on someone's personality and what they believe to be right or wrong.
600 years isn't such a long time.
There are plenty of books out there which were written 1000 years ago and which deal with concerns no different to what we experience today - the fact that they used swords instead of guns notwithstanding.
Also, Shakespeare lived just 500 years ago. Do you think that he, and the people who appreciated his plays, were so much different to the people of today? If so, then why is his work still so relevant to us?
Why was Cervantes' book 'Don Quixote' recently voted the most influential novel of all time by the worlds major writers? To believe that people 500 or 1000 years ago were so different to us is just lazy thinking.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/ma ... ties.books
Don Quixote is the world's best book say the world's top authors
he Guardian, Wednesday 8 May 2002
'Don Quixote, the tale of a Spanish knight driven mad by reading too many chivalric romances, was yesterday voted the best book of all time in a survey of around 100 of the world's best authors.
"If there is one novel you should read before you die, it is Don Quixote," the Nigerian author Ben Okri said at the Norwegian Nobel Institute as he announced the results of history's most expansive authors' poll. "Don Quixote has the most wonderful and elaborated story, yet it is simple."
Around 100 well-known authors from 54 countries voted for the "most meaningful book of all time" in a poll organised by editors at the Norwegian Book Clubs in Oslo...
Miguel de Cervantes' tale of misguided heroism gained 50% more votes than any other book, eclipsing works by Shakespeare, Homer and Tolstoy. '