2lbs of Beef Produce the Greenhouse Gas Emissions of a 3hr d

Lauri

haffajappa wrote:

and then you have the fucking DUGGARS :roll: uggghhh.

once again though, problem isn't population so much as consumption!
and don't gimme none of this globarl warming is a conspiracy bullshit. regardless of the temperature of the earth and the debate whether or not its natural or not, just go look at the shit in the oceans and the smog in shanghai, the populations of animals WE'VE depleted (SHARKS, for instance - mostly for sake of STATUS symbols)... it doesn't matter, we're just committing suicide. the earth'll be here LONG after we kill ourselves through our own stupidity.

American women have more children than any other western country. I read recently that it's still 2 or 2.5 on average in the U.S. while in western Europe it's dropped to something like 1. Americans are more obsessed with reproduction. And Americans are the last people on earth who should be. My mother always says "well if they can afford so many kids, it's their choice." Well no one can afford the externalities of adding additional Americans to the planet. Every additional kid you have is millions of extra tons of pollution and just tons and tons of natural resource depletion and waste creation. I'm not saying people shouldn't have kids, but at a certain point having so many is just selfish. I think the Mr. & Mrs. Duggar should be sued in class action law suit for the rest of the planet.

And anyone who thinks "global warming" is bullshit or a conspiracy has not seen the data. period. they've watched fox news and taken it as gospel. Climate change is natural yes, but not like this. Before the industrial revolution, climate did not change as fast as it has been since. The amount of CO2 in the ice core shoots up right at the time of the industrial revolution as does the climate data. And there's no doubt that the greenhouse effect is a real phenomenon. It seems absurd to me to think that humans have not influenced climate change through combustion of fossil fuels. Scientists have been studying the idea of human induced climate change since the 1960s- it was not invented by Al Gore. And what do the conspiracy theorists think the scientists' motives are? I don't get that, what do they have to gain? Climate scientists want to live in a comfortable home with electricity as much as anyone else...

decides2dream

haffajappa wrote:

LikeAnOcean wrote:

Well more people means more consumption.. correct me if I'm wrong.

not to repeat myself (sorry) but, all i have to say is, USA consumes more than china doesn't it? it consumes more than india?
i think they are both problems, but when you look at consumption vs population north americans use way more than other countries with even bigger populations...

absolutely.
consumption is far worse than merely population. and we, the USA, are definitely a great/terrible example of that.

TravisTheSky wrote:

It seems to me that Americans are slowly going infertile. Many potential causes have been raised: Genetically modified 'Frankenfood,' vaccine ingredients, hormones in food animals, hormone mimickers in plastic, chemicals in the water, electromagnetic radiation from the countless machines in modern life, vitamin/mineral deficiencies, and so on.

My small sphere of acquaintances may or may not be typical: Two friends from high school, who are 36 just like me, have been unable to make babies. One has never become pregnant. The other was briefly pregnant one time, but had an early miscarriage. A third friend dreamt of having 3 children. She eventually had one. That child is 9 1/2, and there have been no siblings. My auntie, who is only a decade older than me, wanted a baby since her teenage years. She managed to have one child when she was 30. That baby, now my 17 year old cousin, is an only child. So are all 3 of my other maternal relatives born in the years since her birth. I've not heard of any singleton-child families in my ancestry before the 1990s.

also, as to infertility, while obviously there are myriad causes, known and unknown, i've read more than a few times in reputable journals/experts that a great factor on the infertility issue is AGE. i know no one likes to say it, but it does seem a big factor. i've read about it too many times. one doctor stated plainly, if more women went back to having children in their early 20s rather than early 30s, that the infertility issue would not be nearly the problem that it is today. yes, there are many, many factors that contribute to infertility but it is hypothesized that a large proportion of the issues are due to couples waiting longer to reproduce.


just read back a bit, excellent post:

haffa jappa wrote:

once again though, problem isn't population so much as consumption!
and don't gimme none of this globarl warming is a conspiracy bullshit. regardless of the temperature of the earth and the debate whether or not its natural or not, just go look at the shit in the oceans and the smog in shanghai, the populations of animals WE'VE depleted (SHARKS, for instance - mostly for sake of STATUS symbols)... it doesn't matter, we're just committing suicide. the earth'll be here LONG after we kill ourselves through our own stupidity.

and i might add to your last statement:

...and the planet, along with almost all it's inhabitants, will be all the more happier and healthier without us as well.

tybird

haffajappa wrote:

the populations of animals WE'VE depleted (SHARKS, for instance - mostly for sake of STATUS symbols)... it doesn't matter, we're just committing suicide. the earth'll be here LONG after we kill ourselves through our own stupidity.

Is your reference to shark consumption and status symbols pointing to shark fin soup???? Any shark consumption that I have partaken in has only been shark steaks, not fins or soup. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the fin soup an Asian status thing...like tiger penis soup....or male potency drugs/powder made from rhino horn.

decides2dream

tybird wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

the populations of animals WE'VE depleted (SHARKS, for instance - mostly for sake of STATUS symbols)... it doesn't matter, we're just committing suicide. the earth'll be here LONG after we kill ourselves through our own stupidity.

Is your reference to shark consumption and status symbols pointing to shark fin soup???? Any shark consumption that I have partaken in has only been shark steaks, not fins or soup. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the fin soup an Asian status thing...like tiger penis soup....or male potency drugs/powder made from rhino horn.

for one who supposedly hasn't imbibed, sure are well versed on these delicacies/potions....;)

i keed, i keeed.....i've read about such whacked out things myself.

haffajappa

tybird wrote:

haffajappa wrote:

the populations of animals WE'VE depleted (SHARKS, for instance - mostly for sake of STATUS symbols)... it doesn't matter, we're just committing suicide. the earth'll be here LONG after we kill ourselves through our own stupidity.

Is your reference to shark consumption and status symbols pointing to shark fin soup???? Any shark consumption that I have partaken in has only been shark steaks, not fins or soup. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the fin soup an Asian status thing...like tiger penis soup....or male potency drugs/powder made from rhino horn.

yeah it was. its not just finnning that is a cause of them dying but its a good example of needless waste.
by we i mean humans, not north americans.

haffajappa

decides2dream wrote:

just read back a bit, excellent post:

haffa jappa wrote:

once again though, problem isn't population so much as consumption!
and don't gimme none of this globarl warming is a conspiracy bullshit. regardless of the temperature of the earth and the debate whether or not its natural or not, just go look at the shit in the oceans and the smog in shanghai, the populations of animals WE'VE depleted (SHARKS, for instance - mostly for sake of STATUS symbols)... it doesn't matter, we're just committing suicide. the earth'll be here LONG after we kill ourselves through our own stupidity.

and i might add to your last statement:

...and the planet, along with almost all it's inhabitants, will be all the more happier and healthier without us as well.

noooo kidding. i'm sure every rhino and elephant and bear and insect on earth will be crying in unison, ding dong the humans are gone

in my opinion, people who deny global warming just use it as a political view to use in their favour for being lazy. its easier to label a global problem as a conspiracy than it is to change your lifestyle and put a little effort into using normal plates instead of paper plates, driving a smaller car instead of a hummer, being conscious of what they are consuming etc... people don't want to face the reality so they come up with some excuse why they shouldn't have to do anything.

holes in the ozone, deforestation, drought, water shortages, food distribution, landfills, toxins in your water, companies tapping into your water, wildlife extinction, encroachment, nani nani nani i could go on and on. climate change isn't the only evidence of how humans treat their planet and treat each other.

wah wah the earth warms naturally, i can still order twice as much as i need and throw half of it away. :roll:

callen

I heart Scout Niblett wrote:

http://www.alternet.org/bloggers/joshua/143170/two_pounds_of_beef_produce_the_greenhouse_gas_emissions_of_a_three-hour_drive/

Two Pounds of Beef Produce the Greenhouse Gas Emissions of a Three-Hour Drive While leaving all the lights at home burning bright during the trip.

New Scientist: "Meat is Murder on the Environment" ...

A kilogram of beef is responsible for more greenhouse gas emissions and other pollution than driving for 3 hours while leaving all the lights on back home.

This is among the conclusions of a study by Akifumi Ogino of the National Institute of Livestock and Grassland Science in Tsukuba, Japan, and colleagues, which has assessed the effects of beef production on global warming, water acidification and eutrophication, and energy consumption...

Their analysis showed that producing a kilogram of beef ... is responsible for the equivalent of the amount of CO2 emitted by the average European car every 250 kilometres, and burns enough energy to light a 100-watt bulb for nearly 20 days.

Hat-tip to Ezra Klein, who anticipates the inevitable cries that these kinds of studies set the stage for the proverbial jack-booted thugs to take away Americans' God-given right to a nice Salisbury steak:

As always, the issue isn't that people shouldn't eat burgers. They should just know what's entailed in eating that burger. Plenty of folks are appalled to see a living room light left on but would never think to trade the cheeseburger for a grilled cheese.

we're carnivours....we need human population control.

callen

haffajappa wrote:

LikeAnOcean wrote:

Well more people means more consumption.. correct me if I'm wrong.

not to repeat myself (sorry) but, all i have to say is, USA consumes more than china doesn't it? it consumes more than india?
i think they are both problems, but when you look at consumption vs population north americans use way more than other countries with even bigger populations...

problem is humans.....we're satans spawn.

haffajappa

callen wrote:

problem is humans..... we're satans spawn.

yeeuuuppp

TravisTheSky

decides2dream wrote:

also, as to infertility, while obviously there are myriad causes, known and unknown, i've read more than a few times in reputable journals/experts that a great factor on the infertility issue is AGE. i know no one likes to say it, but it does seem a big factor. i've read about it too many times. one doctor stated plainly, if more women went back to having children in their early 20s rather than early 30s, that the infertility issue would not be nearly the problem that it is today. yes, there are many, many factors that contribute to infertility but it is hypothesized that a large proportion of the issues are due to couples waiting longer to reproduce.

The friends I mentioned have all been vigorously trying to become pregnant since their early twenties. Yes, I understand that if they just began to try now at 36 years of age, their chances are not great. It could of course be the men that have fertility issues, but it leads to the same result.

---

Also: I think that most of the increase in U.S. population is due to immigration, not reproduction. It's unfair to state that without referencing a source, so feel free to ignore.

decides2dream

TravisTheSky wrote:

decides2dream wrote:

also, as to infertility, while obviously there are myriad causes, known and unknown, i've read more than a few times in reputable journals/experts that a great factor on the infertility issue is AGE. i know no one likes to say it, but it does seem a big factor. i've read about it too many times. one doctor stated plainly, if more women went back to having children in their early 20s rather than early 30s, that the infertility issue would not be nearly the problem that it is today. yes, there are many, many factors that contribute to infertility but it is hypothesized that a large proportion of the issues are due to couples waiting longer to reproduce.

The friends I mentioned have all been vigorously trying to become pregnant since their early twenties. Yes, I understand that if they just began to try now at 36 years of age, their chances are not great. It could of course be the men that have fertility issues, but it leads to the same result.

---

Also: I think that most of the increase in U.S. population is due to immigration, not reproduction. It's unfair to state that without referencing a source, so feel free to ignore.

well that's a shame, and i did reference that there still are indeed many, many reasons for infertility outside of simply age, alone. and yes, infertility issues are fairly evenly divided up between being a female issue, male issue, or combo of both, issue.

vedderman71

Sorry to join this so late. Just read the news about the band supporting the movie "Food Inc.!"
I might start another thread repeating my opinion, but it is conforting to see at least some common sense on this matter.
Maybe these Japanese scientist should shift their concern to their Asian brethren China to have Some sort of guidlines to the many factories puking out tons more polution into the Earth's atmosphere that all the cattle in the world. Ignorance and lack of common sense is bliss I guess...

As a 38 year old farmer who has "fed the world" my entire life, this deeply saddens me that Pearl Jam would lend it's name in support of a film full with untruths and propoganda. Animal agrilculturalists want our livestock and poultry to thrive and be healthy. The animal science industry takes better care of it's animals than we as humans take care of our homeless population.
Write a song about that Ed...

haffajappa

vedderman71 wrote:

Sorry to join this so late. Just read the news about the band supporting the movie "Food Inc.!"
I might start another thread repeating my opinion, but it is conforting to see at least some common sense on this matter.
Maybe these Japanese scientist should shift their concern to their Asian brethren China to have Some sort of guidlines to the many factories puking out tons more polution into the Earth's atmosphere that all the cattle in the world. Ignorance and lack of common sense is bliss I guess...

As a 38 year old farmer who has "fed the world" my entire life, this deeply saddens me that Pearl Jam would lend it's name in support of a film full with untruths and propoganda. Animal agrilculturalists want our livestock and poultry to thrive and be healthy. The animal science industry takes better care of it's animals than we as humans take care of our homeless population.
Write a song about that Ed...

Don't worry, the Japanese will rag on the Chinese faster than they will the Americans.
Brethren isn't necessarily a term easilly coined among Asians.

And how many US companies operate in China?

I should also mention, (I haven't seen Food Inc), but my guess is a lot of the anger targets (or should target) the large companies buying out farms and making massive cattle industries with cows lined up one by one in pens with only their heads sticking out to eat. Not necessarily you and John Doe next to you trying to farm sustainably... Like I said I haven't seen the movie and I haven't read about Eddie's role, but a lot of farms are being bought out and amalgamated into giant companies producing a lot of waste and unsustainable methods

vedderman71

China is a pollution mess, just look at the Olympic converage.
I started another thread titled "Food Inc. full of Untruths," you should check it out.
You make a valid point that I appreciate that many of us indepent "family farms" do many things the right way.
Beef cattle feed lots large or small allow cattle to walk about their lots. A large "corporate" feed lot is made up of many consecutive pens, many a half an acre to an acre (about the size of many lots houses sit upon).
Most video coverage is of "feeding time" when the cattle are being fed in a long bunk, where they are sticking their head through a gate to eat. When they are done, they are free to "roam" about their pen. Many producers have large dirt mounds in these pens that allow the cattle to seek "high ground" when it rains.
Many large dairy operations have gone to a similar method of feeding their milk cows. Many times you see similar footage of the cows eating, but they are free to move about when they are done. Many states have out-lawed "tethered" feeding practices of any livestock.
As far as "family farms" versus corporate farms, you need to have studied to be an attorny or an accountant to understand all the jargon. Basically, over 90% of farmers consider themselves independent family farms. But the family might have had to form an L.L.C. or corporation for tax purposes amongst family as the farm was passed down the generations.

haffajappa

vedderman71 wrote:

China is a pollution mess, just look at the Olympic converage.
I started another thread titled "Food Inc. full of Untruths," you should check it out.
You make a valid point that I appreciate that many of us indepent "family farms" do many things the right way.
Beef cattle feed lots large or small allow cattle to walk about their lots. A large "corporate" feed lot is made up of many consecutive pens, many a half an acre to an acre (about the size of many lots houses sit upon).
Most video coverage is of "feeding time" when the cattle are being fed in a long bunk, where they are sticking their head through a gate to eat. When they are done, they are free to "roam" about their pen. Many producers have large dirt mounds in these pens that allow the cattle to seek "high ground" when it rains.
Many large dairy operations have gone to a similar method of feeding their milk cows. Many times you see similar footage of the cows eating, but they are free to move about when they are done. Many states have out-lawed "tethered" feeding practices of any livestock.
As far as "family farms" versus corporate farms, you need to have studied to be an attorny or an accountant to understand all the jargon. Basically, over 90% of farmers consider themselves independent family farms. But the family might have had to form an L.L.C. or corporation for tax purposes amongst family as the farm was passed down the generations.

china is a pollution mess, yes.
they have no laws or regulations in favour of the environment, or labour laws, hence why companies world wide have their factories situated there (Japan and USA inclusive). My point being, instead of being concerned that the Japanese point the blame on someone else, notice its not just the Chinese who are polluting - even if its on their soil. When the USA conquers its massive consumption problem, then you can preach to me about pointing fingers else where. But for the time being, everyone is to blame, and there's no point trying to shift attention to someone else just because one country is being put under the looking glass. "But look what that country is doing too" isn't a very good excuse.

I'll have to educate myself on the cattle industry a little more because apparently in the lectures at university they are missing your information, but I can't promise I'll pass any bar exams in order to fully believe the cattle industry is wholly sanctified.