what's on your mind, right now?

Thoughts_Arrive

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

Thoughts_Arrive said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

the only part that I really still struggle with is the meaninglessness of my job. Like, obviously, when you are ok with being low level, there is going to be monotony to it. sometimes I feel like i could be doing something meaningful (like helping others-my wife has always insisted I'd excel in HR because of my ability to identify with people and their psychology and, while I'm very emotional myself, my ability to be completely objective about someone else's issues), but I can also help people in my personal life. 

then there's other times that I feel like I'm ok with being low level to make myself feel better about my laziness. LOL

I gotta be honest, I was one of those people that had a hard time wrapping my head around the choice to stay single and/or not have kids. it astounded me, at the advent of facebook, how many people I grew up with that didn't have families, and while I don't know the reasons, I'm sure at least some of them are a result of choice, not ability. then I finally opened my eyes and realized having kids or a spouse isn't for everyone (I also have an evolutionary theory about that as well). it takes a pretty strong person to make that choice and not conform to our societal norms. I didn't conform to it because I felt forced. I've always wanted a wife and kids. I guess I just assumed everyone wanted that. Because we grow up being taught that. Shit, while I love my kids to pieces and wouldn't change it for the world, there are occasions where you sit back and wonder where I'd be without the responsibility. Would I be surfing in Australia? Would I be a roadie for a band? or would I still be a low level clerk in a job no one aspires to and go home to an empty apartment? who knows. But sleeping in would be an amazing perk. And not yelling. My god the yelling. 

on another side, though, some of our best friends are our kids' friends' parents, whom we likely never would have met otherwise. 

But yeah, explaining your choices to people can get exhausting. I don't mind having a discussion about it, but when you get obviously JUDGED for your choices is where the issue comes in. I often ask them "are you passionate about the job you are in? no? then why did you go to school for 15 years and spends hundreds of thousands of dollars on it? oh, so your kids would be happy? pretty sure my kids are just as happy as yours, so that's out. oh, the big house? Yeah, I don't give a fuck about a big house. so that's out, too. oh, you got nothing else? right, discussion over. Nice jeans though. Glad you can afford nicer jeans than me. Hope they were worth it". 

I feel that way regarding kids. Around where I live it feels like it is expected that you'll have kids.
I don't think I want to have any, I don't have the desire and cannot picture myself as a dad and don't think I'd do a good job at a dad given my own problems.
It sickens me when I go out to the local mall and see all these young mums with their partners and they all look miserable. Why are people so stupid. If you don't want kids then don't have any. Life is made to be all about buy a house, marry, have kids. 

a lot of young parents look miserable because they are tired. it's a long road being a parent. there are extreme highs, but also mediocre lows where you find yourself not knowing what day it is, as every day seems exactly the same. 

or it's because they are at the mall. the mall makes me look miserable too. I fucking hate that place. LOL

I have often wondered if I made the right choice having kids, given the world we live in. I'd never take it back (I love them to death), but I wonder if I shouldn't have brought kids into this world. I worry about their future and what this world will be like for them. 

Yeah, those are tied for my #1 reason for choosing not to have kids. I simply don't think the world needs any more people in it. I don't want to contribute to the population crisis. It's a fact that literally the worst thing anyone can do to have a negative impact on the environment as an individual is have children. And it's not just a bit worse than the rest of the ways. It's WAY worse. And just as much, I don't want to raise kids in this rapidly declining society of ours. The education system is fucked, expectations placed on parents are fucked, the lack of independence and freedom kids now have is fucked, and all the negative influences society has on children is fucked. I simply could not bear to raise kids in today's atmosphere. It would just be a huge series of regrets and disappointments for me. I feel like I would be forced to raise my kids in a way I absolutely don't want to raise them, and no matter what I did to counteract current realities, I wouldn't be able to do enough for it to feel right to me (not without ensuring my kid is a social pariah, anyway). And then there is just the heinous financial realities of the city in which I live. I simply wouldn't be able to afford to raise kids the way I would want to, even if all the other stuff wasn't true, which it is.

Luckily for me, I never felt a big biological urge to reproduce anyhow. Like, I really don't have the underlying feeling of wanting to extend my existence through my children. So all those other bad reasons that made me make my decision don't actually lead to any regret either. I sincerely don't mind that all those factors led to me not bearing children. I mind the factors in and of themselves and worry about everyone else's kids  and the future because of them, but I don't mourn my own lack of children at all. I also relish the freedom my decision has afforded. A LOT. I never take that for granted (particularly not when I observe other parents with their children most of the time - I agree with Thoughts Arrive. Most parents these days seem pretty miserable about 75% of the time, both because of what a pain in the ass the kids are, but also because kids can really be a strain on the relationship between the parents ... and I think that is partly because of all the other shitty societal crap that I mentioned. Parents have managed to put themselves into a pretty shitty little situation in recent years IMO, compared to "back in the day". Overworked, impossible standards, overextended, all those fucking birthday parties... At least back in the day they could tell their kids to fuck off out of the house and not come back until dinner time. Now they're around pretty much constantly. 

This!
I too don't want to contribute to overpopulation.
With the terrorism in this world and all the other shit in it I don't want to raise kids in this world.
Plus, I don't want to pass on my family trait of mental illness. 
Mums here have a tough time just dropping the kids off and picking them up after school, they get judged by other mums for a) the clothes they wear & b) the car they drive. My sister finds it disgusting, she snobs the school mums as they are all fakes who love to stand around waiting for the end of school comparing their kids and talking about them all the time. Fuck this corporate world. 

jnimhaoileoin

Jesus, yiz are doing a fair job of putting me off having kids now! In all seriousness though, I'm not concerned about overpopulation nor about the kind of world we live in (Ireland is a wonderful place to raise a child). My hesitation is more due to the fact that for 31 years I haven't had to think of anyone but myself and I doubt my ability to give that up and devote my life to my child. It is no small sacrifice. I'm not sure if this hesitation means I'm not meant to be a mother or if it's just a natural by-product of my fear of change

hedonist

Just caught a news thing of a local guy who's been waiting in line for more than 13 hours to buy the latest PHONE.

The fuck?  I don't get some people.  Sure, it doesn't affect my life, but still...the fuck?

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

Yeah, those are tied for my #1 reason for choosing not to have kids. I simply don't think the world needs any more people in it. I don't want to contribute to the population crisis. It's a fact that literally the worst thing anyone can do to have a negative impact on the environment as an individual is have children. And it's not just a bit worse than the rest of the ways. It's WAY worse. And just as much, I don't want to raise kids in this rapidly declining society of ours. The education system is fucked, expectations placed on parents are fucked, the lack of independence and freedom kids now have is fucked, and all the negative influences society has on children is fucked. I simply could not bear to raise kids in today's atmosphere. It would just be a huge series of regrets and disappointments for me. I feel like I would be forced to raise my kids in a way I absolutely don't want to raise them, and no matter what I did to counteract current realities, I wouldn't be able to do enough for it to feel right to me (not without ensuring my kid is a social pariah, anyway). And then there is just the heinous financial realities of the city in which I live. I simply wouldn't be able to afford to raise kids the way I would want to, even if all the other stuff wasn't true, which it is. 
Luckily for me, I never felt a big biological urge to reproduce anyhow. Like, I really don't have the underlying feeling of wanting to extend my existence through my children. So all those other bad reasons that made me make my decision don't actually lead to any regret either. I sincerely don't mind that all those factors led to me not bearing children. I mind the factors in and of themselves and worry about everyone else's kids  and the future because of them, but I don't mourn my own lack of children at all. I also relish the freedom my decision has afforded. A LOT. I never take that for granted (particularly not when I observe other parents with their children most of the time - I agree with Thoughts Arrive. Most parents these days seem pretty miserable about 75% of the time, both because of what a pain in the ass the kids are, but also because kids can really be a strain on the relationship between the parents ... and I think that is partly because of all the other shitty societal crap that I mentioned. Parents have managed to put themselves into a pretty shitty little situation in recent years IMO, compared to "back in the day". Overworked, impossible standards, overextended, all those fucking birthday parties... At least back in the day they could tell their kids to fuck off out of the house and not come back until dinner time. Now they're around pretty much constantly. 

with all of the negatives you mentioned here, and I don't really consider them negatives (except for the overpopulation thing, which I struggled with), they are a part of the bigger picture, which is a love that I never knew existed. the inexplicable joys that come along with being a parent.....I wouldn't trade those memories for a damn thing. I worry constantly about their future. that's just part of it, unfortunately. 

I think there are many things that are more a pain in the ass now than in the "good ol' days", but there are just as many, if not more that are easier. I do agree that it can be challenging navigating the current societal trends of bubble wrapping your kids, but I feel like we have already started to go the other direction from that. Study after study are coming out and being read and being believed by parents that it's better to leave your kids alone, to let them play unsupervised, that violence against kids is actually LESS than it was in the 70's, there's just more awareness and media-driven fear about it now than before. people are snapping out of it. 

kids are a pain in the ass just as much as anything else that is worth it. they are work, but man, the payoff is immense. 

that being said, I'm not one of those "it's not for everyone" snooty parents. you don't want kids, don't have em. great. you shouldn't! I can't imagine living in past generations where the pressure was so high that you'd have kids even if you didn't want them. that would SUCK.

this is part of my theory. I think people are finally realizing that it's not a requirement to have kids, and that's a good thing. if everyone had kids, jesus, I can't imagine the shit soup our planet would be in. it already is, but it would be exponentially worse than it is now. I don't begrudge people for having 5 kids, but sometimes it makes me think, "shit, do you know what you are doing to the planet? we don't need that many more! you don't need farmhands!". But hey, me judging them is the same as a non-parent judging me for having 2, so that would be hypocritical. 

dankind

hedonist said:

Just caught a news thing of a local guy who's been waiting in line for more than 13 hours to buy the latest PHONE.

The fuck?  I don't get some people.  Sure, it doesn't affect my life, but still...the fuck?

Wait till you see Let's Play Two and the knucklehead who waited in line for four days to get rail for Pearl Jam.



Some people are just wired differently.

hedonist

dankind said:

hedonist said:

Just caught a news thing of a local guy who's been waiting in line for more than 13 hours to buy the latest PHONE.

The fuck?  I don't get some people.  Sure, it doesn't affect my life, but still...the fuck?

Wait till you see Let's Play Two and the knucklehead who waited in line for four days to get rail for Pearl Jam.



Some people are just wired differently.

They sure are.

Fuck lines!

SmallestOceans

Wired so differently
https://youtu.be/YwZ0ZUy7P3E

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

Yeah, those are tied for my #1 reason for choosing not to have kids. I simply don't think the world needs any more people in it. I don't want to contribute to the population crisis. It's a fact that literally the worst thing anyone can do to have a negative impact on the environment as an individual is have children. And it's not just a bit worse than the rest of the ways. It's WAY worse. And just as much, I don't want to raise kids in this rapidly declining society of ours. The education system is fucked, expectations placed on parents are fucked, the lack of independence and freedom kids now have is fucked, and all the negative influences society has on children is fucked. I simply could not bear to raise kids in today's atmosphere. It would just be a huge series of regrets and disappointments for me. I feel like I would be forced to raise my kids in a way I absolutely don't want to raise them, and no matter what I did to counteract current realities, I wouldn't be able to do enough for it to feel right to me (not without ensuring my kid is a social pariah, anyway). And then there is just the heinous financial realities of the city in which I live. I simply wouldn't be able to afford to raise kids the way I would want to, even if all the other stuff wasn't true, which it is. 
Luckily for me, I never felt a big biological urge to reproduce anyhow. Like, I really don't have the underlying feeling of wanting to extend my existence through my children. So all those other bad reasons that made me make my decision don't actually lead to any regret either. I sincerely don't mind that all those factors led to me not bearing children. I mind the factors in and of themselves and worry about everyone else's kids  and the future because of them, but I don't mourn my own lack of children at all. I also relish the freedom my decision has afforded. A LOT. I never take that for granted (particularly not when I observe other parents with their children most of the time - I agree with Thoughts Arrive. Most parents these days seem pretty miserable about 75% of the time, both because of what a pain in the ass the kids are, but also because kids can really be a strain on the relationship between the parents ... and I think that is partly because of all the other shitty societal crap that I mentioned. Parents have managed to put themselves into a pretty shitty little situation in recent years IMO, compared to "back in the day". Overworked, impossible standards, overextended, all those fucking birthday parties... At least back in the day they could tell their kids to fuck off out of the house and not come back until dinner time. Now they're around pretty much constantly. 

with all of the negatives you mentioned here, and I don't really consider them negatives (except for the overpopulation thing, which I struggled with), they are a part of the bigger picture, which is a love that I never knew existed. the inexplicable joys that come along with being a parent.....I wouldn't trade those memories for a damn thing. I worry constantly about their future. that's just part of it, unfortunately. 

I think there are many things that are more a pain in the ass now than in the "good ol' days", but there are just as many, if not more that are easier. I do agree that it can be challenging navigating the current societal trends of bubble wrapping your kids, but I feel like we have already started to go the other direction from that. Study after study are coming out and being read and being believed by parents that it's better to leave your kids alone, to let them play unsupervised, that violence against kids is actually LESS than it was in the 70's, there's just more awareness and media-driven fear about it now than before. people are snapping out of it. 

kids are a pain in the ass just as much as anything else that is worth it. they are work, but man, the payoff is immense. 

that being said, I'm not one of those "it's not for everyone" snooty parents. you don't want kids, don't have em. great. you shouldn't! I can't imagine living in past generations where the pressure was so high that you'd have kids even if you didn't want them. that would SUCK.

this is part of my theory. I think people are finally realizing that it's not a requirement to have kids, and that's a good thing. if everyone had kids, jesus, I can't imagine the shit soup our planet would be in. it already is, but it would be exponentially worse than it is now. I don't begrudge people for having 5 kids, but sometimes it makes me think, "shit, do you know what you are doing to the planet? we don't need that many more! you don't need farmhands!". But hey, me judging them is the same as a non-parent judging me for having 2, so that would be hypocritical. 

Well aside from everything else I said, which I really do feel are massive negatives - I do feel, for myself, that all those things do not make it worth it. I am much more cynical than you are about it I guess. Of course I understand the whole loving them thing and that most parents wouldn't trade it for the world. I also know that if I had kids I would of course love them more than life itself, just like everyone else. But that is only a thing after you have kids. I don't miss something I never had, even though I know I'd have it if I did it. I don't feel like I've sacrificed anything by not having them. I also just don't feel like personally experiencing that "pay off" is important enough to myself to override all my reasons not to have kids.

Also... I am not a big fan of kids anyhow. I mean, I know my own would be totally different, and there are a few kids in my life who I love and would die for (niece, nephew, and my best friend's kids). But in general, I find kids fairly annoying, largely uninteresting (with a few exceptions), and a little off-putting, lol. You know those fucking photos that people post of their little kids with food on their faces, and everyone acts like it's cute? I think it's revolting. And kids like that in person actually make me feel a little nauseous, lol. I totally go out of my way to never ever show the kids that I have these feelings - my #1 priority when I'm around kids is to make sure that they feel accepted and loved and safe. No matter how I feel, I suck it up for children when I have to and am very, very good at doing that (everyone tells me how good I am with kids). But I don't like it. I do not get even a tiny bit of pleasure, for example, out of playing with children. I think of it as a tedious responsibility. The fact that I have to fake my interest in it makes it extra exhausting.

I also feel a great deal of uncontrollable anxiety when there are many kids all in a group. Like at a kid's bday party, or when the campus daycare brings all their kids down to our office on Halloween to trick or treat. I find that loud gaggle of little children absolutely stress inducing and I can't get out of there fast enough. I don't find it particularly cute or endearing TBH. Yes, all the reasons I gave for not having kids are my most important reasons, because I wouldn't feel all these other things about my own kids. And yes, I know my own kids would be my life and I wouldn't regret them once I had them (probably... I have met a few parents who admitted that, as much as they love their kids, if they could do it over, they wouldn't. I suspect more parents feel like that but would never say it out loud). I watch my friends and family with their children while they're being little brats or just yelling or spazzing out and being huge idiots and I only thank God that I had the wherewithal and bravery to buck social convention and not go down that road. Again, I don't hate kids. And I can appreciate them too, on many levels. And I know they're our future (which is why all the big reasons I don't want my own are so important to me and why I worry for other people's children in today's society). But I think it's beyond clear that motherhood is simply not for me no matter how much parental love pays off emotionally. Not worth it to me.

Anyway, I'm glad someone has them! We need people to keep having them to keep things running! And to keep me in a job, lol. And, hopefully, to learn from history's mistakes and actually make the world better. This is their greatest role. I sure hope they do it better than we have. So thanks to all the parents out there.... assuming your kids don't just fuck everything up even more.

HughFreakingDillon

no offence, but I don't consider it particularly brave to not have kids nowadays. Maybe in the 60's, but now it's pretty common. 

I generally don't like kids from about age 6 on (except my own-most of the time). I don't mind a couple of my oldest daughter's friends, and a few of my youngest daughter's friends are just quiet cuties (except one who is the fucking tasmanian devil-thank god she moved away). But I love babies. I'm a sucker for a fat baby. People think, as a large 43 year old man, that it's totally bizarre and that I shouldn't like babies, that I need to be in front of a tv yelling at a football referee, but no, if we were at a friend's house watching the superbowl and there was a baby in the other room, I'd be in the room with the baby (I'm the same with human babies as most people are with animal babies). LOL. But school age kids? no thanks. besides my own, can't stand most of them. especially with my daughter being pre-teen. the way she talks when she's with her friends, good god it makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. I just have to remember how stupid I was/sounded at that age, and you just have to laugh. every generation is basically the same, just different technology. 

I've always known I wanted to have a family. if it didn't happen for me, I wouldn't have been devastated, but I always knew my preference was to have kids.  

I love the Louis CK bit from his SNL monologue: "except for my own, I hate kids, little boys in particular. I hate little boys. I guess I'm the opposite of a pedophile". 

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

no offence, but I don't consider it particularly brave to not have kids nowadays. Maybe in the 60's, but now it's pretty common. 

I generally don't like kids from about age 6 on (except my own-most of the time). I don't mind a couple of my oldest daughter's friends, and a few of my youngest daughter's friends are just quiet cuties (except one who is the fucking tasmanian devil-thank god she moved away). But I love babies. I'm a sucker for a fat baby. People think, as a large 43 year old man, that it's totally bizarre and that I shouldn't like babies, that I need to be in front of a tv yelling at a football referee, but no, if we were at a friend's house watching the superbowl and there was a baby in the other room, I'd be in the room with the baby (I'm the same with human babies as most people are with animal babies). LOL. But school age kids? no thanks. besides my own, can't stand most of them. especially with my daughter being pre-teen. the way she talks when she's with her friends, good god it makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. I just have to remember how stupid I was/sounded at that age, and you just have to laugh. every generation is basically the same, just different technology. 

I've always known I wanted to have a family. if it didn't happen for me, I wouldn't have been devastated, but I always knew my preference was to have kids.  

I love the Louis CK bit from his SNL monologue: "except for my own, I hate kids, little boys in particular. I hate little boys. I guess I'm the opposite of a pedophile". 

No offense taken, but I disagree. Maybe you feel like that because you're a man? Nobody seems to care too much if men don't have kids. But women are still very much stuck with a stigma if they don't have kids. They are judged. I am victim to that stigma and that judgement every day. I totally feel it. It really did take bravery on my part to be honest with myself and others to stand up against the expectations of my friends, colleagues, and family, as well as society at large. I even came close to buckling at one point, but resisted.

I actually also like infants. I feel very natural and comfortable with them. I get turned off once they are around two, and then they aren't my cup of tea until probably 16 or so, lol.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

no offence, but I don't consider it particularly brave to not have kids nowadays. Maybe in the 60's, but now it's pretty common. 

I generally don't like kids from about age 6 on (except my own-most of the time). I don't mind a couple of my oldest daughter's friends, and a few of my youngest daughter's friends are just quiet cuties (except one who is the fucking tasmanian devil-thank god she moved away). But I love babies. I'm a sucker for a fat baby. People think, as a large 43 year old man, that it's totally bizarre and that I shouldn't like babies, that I need to be in front of a tv yelling at a football referee, but no, if we were at a friend's house watching the superbowl and there was a baby in the other room, I'd be in the room with the baby (I'm the same with human babies as most people are with animal babies). LOL. But school age kids? no thanks. besides my own, can't stand most of them. especially with my daughter being pre-teen. the way she talks when she's with her friends, good god it makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. I just have to remember how stupid I was/sounded at that age, and you just have to laugh. every generation is basically the same, just different technology. 

I've always known I wanted to have a family. if it didn't happen for me, I wouldn't have been devastated, but I always knew my preference was to have kids.  

I love the Louis CK bit from his SNL monologue: "except for my own, I hate kids, little boys in particular. I hate little boys. I guess I'm the opposite of a pedophile". 

No offense taken, but I disagree. Maybe you feel like that because you're a man. Nobody seems to care if men don't have kids. But women are still very much stuck with a stigma if they don't have kids. They are judged. I am victim to that stigma and that judgement every day.

why would I feel like that simply because of my gender? half the people in my life are women (most of the people in my office are females), many of them don't have kids, and I've never heard anything like this before. I don't know of any women who have ever made a comment about another woman's familial status. Not once. And I've heard LOADS of shitty things women say about one another ("no wonder her husband left her" is one of the more recent ones), but never have I heard anything shaming a woman for not having kids. 

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

no offence, but I don't consider it particularly brave to not have kids nowadays. Maybe in the 60's, but now it's pretty common. 

I generally don't like kids from about age 6 on (except my own-most of the time). I don't mind a couple of my oldest daughter's friends, and a few of my youngest daughter's friends are just quiet cuties (except one who is the fucking tasmanian devil-thank god she moved away). But I love babies. I'm a sucker for a fat baby. People think, as a large 43 year old man, that it's totally bizarre and that I shouldn't like babies, that I need to be in front of a tv yelling at a football referee, but no, if we were at a friend's house watching the superbowl and there was a baby in the other room, I'd be in the room with the baby (I'm the same with human babies as most people are with animal babies). LOL. But school age kids? no thanks. besides my own, can't stand most of them. especially with my daughter being pre-teen. the way she talks when she's with her friends, good god it makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. I just have to remember how stupid I was/sounded at that age, and you just have to laugh. every generation is basically the same, just different technology. 

I've always known I wanted to have a family. if it didn't happen for me, I wouldn't have been devastated, but I always knew my preference was to have kids.  

I love the Louis CK bit from his SNL monologue: "except for my own, I hate kids, little boys in particular. I hate little boys. I guess I'm the opposite of a pedophile". 

No offense taken, but I disagree. Maybe you feel like that because you're a man. Nobody seems to care if men don't have kids. But women are still very much stuck with a stigma if they don't have kids. They are judged. I am victim to that stigma and that judgement every day.

why would I feel like that simply because of my gender? half the people in my life are women (most of the people in my office are females), many of them don't have kids, and I've never heard anything like this before. I don't know of any women who have ever made a comment about another woman's familial status. Not once. And I've heard LOADS of shitty things women say about one another ("no wonder her husband left her" is one of the more recent ones), but never have I heard anything shaming a woman for not having kids. 

Because people don't lay that expectation on men like they do women, so if you don't experience that judgement and stigma then why would you be very aware of it?
I don't think it's fair of you to simply consider what the people in your own life do and then tell me it's not a thing when I'm telling you it is very much a thing in my own experience. But FYI, it's not about women (or men) sitting around just being catty. It goes way beyond that in so many ways, both subtle and not so much.

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

no offence, but I don't consider it particularly brave to not have kids nowadays. Maybe in the 60's, but now it's pretty common. 

I generally don't like kids from about age 6 on (except my own-most of the time). I don't mind a couple of my oldest daughter's friends, and a few of my youngest daughter's friends are just quiet cuties (except one who is the fucking tasmanian devil-thank god she moved away). But I love babies. I'm a sucker for a fat baby. People think, as a large 43 year old man, that it's totally bizarre and that I shouldn't like babies, that I need to be in front of a tv yelling at a football referee, but no, if we were at a friend's house watching the superbowl and there was a baby in the other room, I'd be in the room with the baby (I'm the same with human babies as most people are with animal babies). LOL. But school age kids? no thanks. besides my own, can't stand most of them. especially with my daughter being pre-teen. the way she talks when she's with her friends, good god it makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. I just have to remember how stupid I was/sounded at that age, and you just have to laugh. every generation is basically the same, just different technology. 

I've always known I wanted to have a family. if it didn't happen for me, I wouldn't have been devastated, but I always knew my preference was to have kids.  

I love the Louis CK bit from his SNL monologue: "except for my own, I hate kids, little boys in particular. I hate little boys. I guess I'm the opposite of a pedophile". 

No offense taken, but I disagree. Maybe you feel like that because you're a man. Nobody seems to care if men don't have kids. But women are still very much stuck with a stigma if they don't have kids. They are judged. I am victim to that stigma and that judgement every day.

why would I feel like that simply because of my gender? half the people in my life are women (most of the people in my office are females), many of them don't have kids, and I've never heard anything like this before. I don't know of any women who have ever made a comment about another woman's familial status. Not once. And I've heard LOADS of shitty things women say about one another ("no wonder her husband left her" is one of the more recent ones), but never have I heard anything shaming a woman for not having kids. 

Because people don't lay that expectation on men like they do women, so if you don't experience that judgement and stigma then why would you be very aware of it?
I don't think it's fair of you to simply consider what the people in your own life do and then tell me it's not a thing when I'm telling you it is very much a thing in my own experience. But FYI, it's not about women (or men) sitting around just being catty. It goes way beyond that in so many ways, both subtle and not so much.

where did I say it's not a thing? I said I had never heard it/noticed it before. you are telling me what you experience. I am telling you the exact same thing with different results. me drawing from my own experience is just as valid as you doing the same. 

I would most likely be aware of it because of my EQ and relationship with women, just like anything else not directly affecting my gender. But I can obviously admit that it's possible I don't pick up on it. 

what I am aware of is actually the exact opposite: women being shamed FOR having kids by men in the workplace. it can be a massive uphill battle having career when you may have to stay home with a sick child and miss a meeting with a client. My sister had a massive falling out with her last boss because of this. 

PJ_Soul

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

no offence, but I don't consider it particularly brave to not have kids nowadays. Maybe in the 60's, but now it's pretty common. 

I generally don't like kids from about age 6 on (except my own-most of the time). I don't mind a couple of my oldest daughter's friends, and a few of my youngest daughter's friends are just quiet cuties (except one who is the fucking tasmanian devil-thank god she moved away). But I love babies. I'm a sucker for a fat baby. People think, as a large 43 year old man, that it's totally bizarre and that I shouldn't like babies, that I need to be in front of a tv yelling at a football referee, but no, if we were at a friend's house watching the superbowl and there was a baby in the other room, I'd be in the room with the baby (I'm the same with human babies as most people are with animal babies). LOL. But school age kids? no thanks. besides my own, can't stand most of them. especially with my daughter being pre-teen. the way she talks when she's with her friends, good god it makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. I just have to remember how stupid I was/sounded at that age, and you just have to laugh. every generation is basically the same, just different technology. 

I've always known I wanted to have a family. if it didn't happen for me, I wouldn't have been devastated, but I always knew my preference was to have kids.  

I love the Louis CK bit from his SNL monologue: "except for my own, I hate kids, little boys in particular. I hate little boys. I guess I'm the opposite of a pedophile". 

No offense taken, but I disagree. Maybe you feel like that because you're a man. Nobody seems to care if men don't have kids. But women are still very much stuck with a stigma if they don't have kids. They are judged. I am victim to that stigma and that judgement every day.

why would I feel like that simply because of my gender? half the people in my life are women (most of the people in my office are females), many of them don't have kids, and I've never heard anything like this before. I don't know of any women who have ever made a comment about another woman's familial status. Not once. And I've heard LOADS of shitty things women say about one another ("no wonder her husband left her" is one of the more recent ones), but never have I heard anything shaming a woman for not having kids. 

Because people don't lay that expectation on men like they do women, so if you don't experience that judgement and stigma then why would you be very aware of it?
I don't think it's fair of you to simply consider what the people in your own life do and then tell me it's not a thing when I'm telling you it is very much a thing in my own experience. But FYI, it's not about women (or men) sitting around just being catty. It goes way beyond that in so many ways, both subtle and not so much.

where did I say it's not a thing? I said I had never heard it/noticed it before. you are telling me what you experience. I am telling you the exact same thing with different results. me drawing from my own experience is just as valid as you doing the same. 

I would most likely be aware of it because of my EQ and relationship with women, just like anything else not directly affecting my gender. But I can obviously admit that it's possible I don't pick up on it. 

what I am aware of is actually the exact opposite: women being shamed FOR having kids by men in the workplace. it can be a massive uphill battle having career when you may have to stay home with a sick child and miss a meeting with a client. My sister had a massive falling out with her last boss because of this. 

You said it doesn't take any bravery to make the decision I did (to me that says you don't think it's a thing), and I'm telling you that it did, and why.

The whole "he's a consummate bachelor and she's an old spinster" concept is very much alive and well FYI. If you don't think so it's because it doesn't affect you directly.

I do agree that babies and careers are also an issue now - a side effect of being closer to female equality, wherein women have all the old expectations placed on them as well as all the new ones. I think that is a very complicated subject.

hedonist

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

no offence, but I don't consider it particularly brave to not have kids nowadays. Maybe in the 60's, but now it's pretty common. 

I generally don't like kids from about age 6 on (except my own-most of the time). I don't mind a couple of my oldest daughter's friends, and a few of my youngest daughter's friends are just quiet cuties (except one who is the fucking tasmanian devil-thank god she moved away). But I love babies. I'm a sucker for a fat baby. People think, as a large 43 year old man, that it's totally bizarre and that I shouldn't like babies, that I need to be in front of a tv yelling at a football referee, but no, if we were at a friend's house watching the superbowl and there was a baby in the other room, I'd be in the room with the baby (I'm the same with human babies as most people are with animal babies). LOL. But school age kids? no thanks. besides my own, can't stand most of them. especially with my daughter being pre-teen. the way she talks when she's with her friends, good god it makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. I just have to remember how stupid I was/sounded at that age, and you just have to laugh. every generation is basically the same, just different technology. 

I've always known I wanted to have a family. if it didn't happen for me, I wouldn't have been devastated, but I always knew my preference was to have kids.  

I love the Louis CK bit from his SNL monologue: "except for my own, I hate kids, little boys in particular. I hate little boys. I guess I'm the opposite of a pedophile". 

No offense taken, but I disagree. Maybe you feel like that because you're a man. Nobody seems to care if men don't have kids. But women are still very much stuck with a stigma if they don't have kids. They are judged. I am victim to that stigma and that judgement every day.

why would I feel like that simply because of my gender? half the people in my life are women (most of the people in my office are females), many of them don't have kids, and I've never heard anything like this before. I don't know of any women who have ever made a comment about another woman's familial status. Not once. And I've heard LOADS of shitty things women say about one another ("no wonder her husband left her" is one of the more recent ones), but never have I heard anything shaming a woman for not having kids. 

It DOES come down to experience - whether man or woman - as I have never (except once, and even then...no biggie) been knowingly or overtly judged for my choice.  Even my mom gets it, accepts it.  My dad did too.  If people respect you, they'll respect the path you choose to walk.

I feel no bravery - never even occurred to me, in these times - for my decision, just the knowledge that I made the right one.

(and...spinster?  I haven't heard that term in years!)

PJ_Soul

hedonist said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

no offence, but I don't consider it particularly brave to not have kids nowadays. Maybe in the 60's, but now it's pretty common. 

I generally don't like kids from about age 6 on (except my own-most of the time). I don't mind a couple of my oldest daughter's friends, and a few of my youngest daughter's friends are just quiet cuties (except one who is the fucking tasmanian devil-thank god she moved away). But I love babies. I'm a sucker for a fat baby. People think, as a large 43 year old man, that it's totally bizarre and that I shouldn't like babies, that I need to be in front of a tv yelling at a football referee, but no, if we were at a friend's house watching the superbowl and there was a baby in the other room, I'd be in the room with the baby (I'm the same with human babies as most people are with animal babies). LOL. But school age kids? no thanks. besides my own, can't stand most of them. especially with my daughter being pre-teen. the way she talks when she's with her friends, good god it makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. I just have to remember how stupid I was/sounded at that age, and you just have to laugh. every generation is basically the same, just different technology. 

I've always known I wanted to have a family. if it didn't happen for me, I wouldn't have been devastated, but I always knew my preference was to have kids.  

I love the Louis CK bit from his SNL monologue: "except for my own, I hate kids, little boys in particular. I hate little boys. I guess I'm the opposite of a pedophile". 

No offense taken, but I disagree. Maybe you feel like that because you're a man. Nobody seems to care if men don't have kids. But women are still very much stuck with a stigma if they don't have kids. They are judged. I am victim to that stigma and that judgement every day.

why would I feel like that simply because of my gender? half the people in my life are women (most of the people in my office are females), many of them don't have kids, and I've never heard anything like this before. I don't know of any women who have ever made a comment about another woman's familial status. Not once. And I've heard LOADS of shitty things women say about one another ("no wonder her husband left her" is one of the more recent ones), but never have I heard anything shaming a woman for not having kids. 

It DOES come down to experience - whether man or woman - as I have never (except once, and even then...no biggie) been knowingly or overtly judged for my choice.  Even my mom gets it, accepts it.  My dad did too.  If people respect you, they'll respect the path you choose to walk.

I feel no bravery - never even occurred to me, in these times - for my decision, just the knowledge that I made the right one.

(and...spinster?  I haven't heard that term in years!)

That's nice for you. That has not been my experience at all, and I'm not sure if you're inferring that I'm feeling this way because people don't respect me??? That's what it seems like.
But FWIW, both of my parents are completely fine with it. They have never been the issue at all. My dad actually is impressed - I think he wishes he'd made the same decision TBH, lol.

dankind

Infants suck.

 

HughFreakingDillon

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

no offence, but I don't consider it particularly brave to not have kids nowadays. Maybe in the 60's, but now it's pretty common. 

I generally don't like kids from about age 6 on (except my own-most of the time). I don't mind a couple of my oldest daughter's friends, and a few of my youngest daughter's friends are just quiet cuties (except one who is the fucking tasmanian devil-thank god she moved away). But I love babies. I'm a sucker for a fat baby. People think, as a large 43 year old man, that it's totally bizarre and that I shouldn't like babies, that I need to be in front of a tv yelling at a football referee, but no, if we were at a friend's house watching the superbowl and there was a baby in the other room, I'd be in the room with the baby (I'm the same with human babies as most people are with animal babies). LOL. But school age kids? no thanks. besides my own, can't stand most of them. especially with my daughter being pre-teen. the way she talks when she's with her friends, good god it makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. I just have to remember how stupid I was/sounded at that age, and you just have to laugh. every generation is basically the same, just different technology. 

I've always known I wanted to have a family. if it didn't happen for me, I wouldn't have been devastated, but I always knew my preference was to have kids.  

I love the Louis CK bit from his SNL monologue: "except for my own, I hate kids, little boys in particular. I hate little boys. I guess I'm the opposite of a pedophile". 

No offense taken, but I disagree. Maybe you feel like that because you're a man. Nobody seems to care if men don't have kids. But women are still very much stuck with a stigma if they don't have kids. They are judged. I am victim to that stigma and that judgement every day.

why would I feel like that simply because of my gender? half the people in my life are women (most of the people in my office are females), many of them don't have kids, and I've never heard anything like this before. I don't know of any women who have ever made a comment about another woman's familial status. Not once. And I've heard LOADS of shitty things women say about one another ("no wonder her husband left her" is one of the more recent ones), but never have I heard anything shaming a woman for not having kids. 

Because people don't lay that expectation on men like they do women, so if you don't experience that judgement and stigma then why would you be very aware of it?
I don't think it's fair of you to simply consider what the people in your own life do and then tell me it's not a thing when I'm telling you it is very much a thing in my own experience. But FYI, it's not about women (or men) sitting around just being catty. It goes way beyond that in so many ways, both subtle and not so much.

where did I say it's not a thing? I said I had never heard it/noticed it before. you are telling me what you experience. I am telling you the exact same thing with different results. me drawing from my own experience is just as valid as you doing the same. 

I would most likely be aware of it because of my EQ and relationship with women, just like anything else not directly affecting my gender. But I can obviously admit that it's possible I don't pick up on it. 

what I am aware of is actually the exact opposite: women being shamed FOR having kids by men in the workplace. it can be a massive uphill battle having career when you may have to stay home with a sick child and miss a meeting with a client. My sister had a massive falling out with her last boss because of this. 

You said it doesn't take any bravery to make the decision I did (to me that says you don't think it's a thing), and I'm telling you that it did, and why.

The whole "he's a consummate bachelor and she's an old spinster" concept is very much alive and well FYI. If you don't think so it's because it doesn't affect you directly.

I do agree that babies and careers are also an issue now - a side effect of being closer to female equality, wherein women have all the old expectations placed on them as well as all the new ones. I think that is a very complicated subject.

ok, let's turn this around. I get "judged" all the time for being "the man of the house" and not being the breadwinner, not being a careerist, not being ambitious. Do I face judgment? Yep. from peers, from friends, from people who I barely know. Just this summer, a woman that is a friend of a friend asked me what I do. I told her. She said "do you LOVE it?". I'm like "nope". And she looked at me like i was a fucking alien. 

Do I think I'm brave for going against social norms? that's a big fat nope. Why? Cause I don't give a shit what others think. which is why I'm surprised you consider it to be a brave choice. you seem like the type that is proud of her "I don't give a fuck"ness. but that's just my perception. 

I find your "consummate bachelor" and "spinster" comment to be incredibly outdated. I don't hear that stuff at all. That's like something from Mad Men. But again, this is in my experience. 

why do all of our conversations turn into fiery debates?

northerndragon

hedonist said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

no offence, but I don't consider it particularly brave to not have kids nowadays. Maybe in the 60's, but now it's pretty common. 

I generally don't like kids from about age 6 on (except my own-most of the time). I don't mind a couple of my oldest daughter's friends, and a few of my youngest daughter's friends are just quiet cuties (except one who is the fucking tasmanian devil-thank god she moved away). But I love babies. I'm a sucker for a fat baby. People think, as a large 43 year old man, that it's totally bizarre and that I shouldn't like babies, that I need to be in front of a tv yelling at a football referee, but no, if we were at a friend's house watching the superbowl and there was a baby in the other room, I'd be in the room with the baby (I'm the same with human babies as most people are with animal babies). LOL. But school age kids? no thanks. besides my own, can't stand most of them. especially with my daughter being pre-teen. the way she talks when she's with her friends, good god it makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. I just have to remember how stupid I was/sounded at that age, and you just have to laugh. every generation is basically the same, just different technology. 

I've always known I wanted to have a family. if it didn't happen for me, I wouldn't have been devastated, but I always knew my preference was to have kids.  

I love the Louis CK bit from his SNL monologue: "except for my own, I hate kids, little boys in particular. I hate little boys. I guess I'm the opposite of a pedophile". 

No offense taken, but I disagree. Maybe you feel like that because you're a man. Nobody seems to care if men don't have kids. But women are still very much stuck with a stigma if they don't have kids. They are judged. I am victim to that stigma and that judgement every day.

why would I feel like that simply because of my gender? half the people in my life are women (most of the people in my office are females), many of them don't have kids, and I've never heard anything like this before. I don't know of any women who have ever made a comment about another woman's familial status. Not once. And I've heard LOADS of shitty things women say about one another ("no wonder her husband left her" is one of the more recent ones), but never have I heard anything shaming a woman for not having kids. 

It DOES come down to experience - whether man or woman - as I have never (except once, and even then...no biggie) been knowingly or overtly judged for my choice.  Even my mom gets it, accepts it.  My dad did too.  If people respect you, they'll respect the path you choose to walk.

I feel no bravery - never even occurred to me, in these times - for my decision, just the knowledge that I made the right one.

(and...spinster?  I haven't heard that term in years!)

I have been disagreed with, told I don't know my own wants, that I'm selfish and that I hate children. Both men and women gave been extremely judgemental in my decision not to have children for years. It has sucked and to be honest kinda pissed me off.  
The decision is up to the individual and to be honest is no one else's business. Unfortunately this has not been the bulk of my experience in my lifetime. And poopooing someone else's experiences because you haven't had the same ones is very much akin to judging someone for their life choices.

hedonist

PJ_Soul said:

hedonist said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

PJ_Soul said:

HughFreakingDillon said:

no offence, but I don't consider it particularly brave to not have kids nowadays. Maybe in the 60's, but now it's pretty common. 

I generally don't like kids from about age 6 on (except my own-most of the time). I don't mind a couple of my oldest daughter's friends, and a few of my youngest daughter's friends are just quiet cuties (except one who is the fucking tasmanian devil-thank god she moved away). But I love babies. I'm a sucker for a fat baby. People think, as a large 43 year old man, that it's totally bizarre and that I shouldn't like babies, that I need to be in front of a tv yelling at a football referee, but no, if we were at a friend's house watching the superbowl and there was a baby in the other room, I'd be in the room with the baby (I'm the same with human babies as most people are with animal babies). LOL. But school age kids? no thanks. besides my own, can't stand most of them. especially with my daughter being pre-teen. the way she talks when she's with her friends, good god it makes me want to stab myself in the eye with a fork. I just have to remember how stupid I was/sounded at that age, and you just have to laugh. every generation is basically the same, just different technology. 

I've always known I wanted to have a family. if it didn't happen for me, I wouldn't have been devastated, but I always knew my preference was to have kids.  

I love the Louis CK bit from his SNL monologue: "except for my own, I hate kids, little boys in particular. I hate little boys. I guess I'm the opposite of a pedophile". 

No offense taken, but I disagree. Maybe you feel like that because you're a man. Nobody seems to care if men don't have kids. But women are still very much stuck with a stigma if they don't have kids. They are judged. I am victim to that stigma and that judgement every day.

why would I feel like that simply because of my gender? half the people in my life are women (most of the people in my office are females), many of them don't have kids, and I've never heard anything like this before. I don't know of any women who have ever made a comment about another woman's familial status. Not once. And I've heard LOADS of shitty things women say about one another ("no wonder her husband left her" is one of the more recent ones), but never have I heard anything shaming a woman for not having kids. 

It DOES come down to experience - whether man or woman - as I have never (except once, and even then...no biggie) been knowingly or overtly judged for my choice.  Even my mom gets it, accepts it.  My dad did too.  If people respect you, they'll respect the path you choose to walk.

I feel no bravery - never even occurred to me, in these times - for my decision, just the knowledge that I made the right one.

(and...spinster?  I haven't heard that term in years!)

That's nice for you. That has not been my experience at all, and I'm not sure if you're inferring that I'm feeling this way because people don't respect me??? That's what it seems like.
But FWIW, both of my parents are completely fine with it. They have never been the issue at all. My dad actually is impressed - I think he wishes he'd made the same decision TBH, lol.

Nope, not inferring that at all; I meant "you" in the general sense.  I trust most people make the choices best-suited for them, and that those close to us (ie, those who respect us) trust in our choices as well.

(DK, I see what you did there!)