Thoughts on capitalism

VINNY GOOMBA

Cosmo wrote:

Sounds like everyone is making pretty good points... both for and against. I believe Capitalism is both good and bad... just as Socialism has good and bad points.
I hear people say, 'Government needs to get out of the way and let market forces decide'. That means, as an example, when a hurricane is coming towards the Florida panhandle, Wal-Mart can charge 25 bucks for gallon jugs of water and 15 bucks for a 4 pack of D-Cell batteries. Home Depot can charge 100 bucks for 3/4 inch plywood. Market is driving the demand... why not accept these prices?
Then, there is the downside to Government intervention into commerce. You do not want to regulate companies out of business.
But, there needs to be a right mixture of both... Free Enterprise with Government enforced regulations. If companies and businesses possessed a conscience, regulation would not be required. But, just look at our financial institutions that conducted business without regulations... look at air safety when regulation was dropped and airlines used forklifts to swap engines to cut costs. Businesses cannot be trusted... EVEN SMALL BUSINESSES. If it weren't against the law to price gouge during a disaster, small business would charge whatever desterate people are willing to pay.

I don't get your hurricane example, Cosmo. Once WalMart decides to rape people for water, people will find water elsewhere for cheaper if there is competition, and there will be (unless of course, WalMart is the only place standing?). Even so, when has the government ever stepped in and price-controlled places like WalMart in a disaster? Not to mention in times of crisis, this country has always ante'd up and taken care of our fellow man. Let's see WalMart compete $25 / gallon versus donated water from other parts of the country. If anything, I bet WalMart would donate tons of supplies themselves to either help, or for some feel-good photo op for them.

I can never understand why so many people think that with more freedom with our own money automatically comes absolute ruthlessness and lack of compassion from everyone in the country, and businesses gone wild gouging people the hardest they can. If people have more of their own money to share, you don't think they actually would? I think we are a very charitable country considering how hard we get banged in taxes as it currently stands.

Most "regulations" are written by the people that are going to be regulated by them-- banks, oil companies, pharma, agri-business, whoever. They always appear to have some language that appears to reign them all in, but it never goes that way. They legislate special rules for themselves (such as fractional reserves for banks), and they legislate their competition out of business.

True free markets probably would prevent any company from becoming so sizeable to actually be able to buy Congress on a whim. I don't think you'd have companies like WalMart be as wildly successful in an enviroment where the government simply stayed out of business as much as possible-- even with Free Trade to China and whoever else currently (but won't always) work for next to nothing. Small businesses get nailed the hardest by taxes. Take a bunch of those away by limiting government spending through true free markets, and Billy Bob's Quality Chair Shop might be able to make QUALITY chairs that last a lifetime for double the cost of a chair made overseas from WalMart that will last 2 years. Which chair would you buy?

If it is necessary to impose regulations (protecting people from dangerous conditions, fraud, theft, etc...), it should be at state and local levels.

Sludge Factory

Commy wrote:

prfctlefts wrote:

So what about the small business owners are they evil to? For example all the immigrants that come here and start their own businesses. They come over here because they are tired of working for somebody else and shit wages. They come here so they can provide a better life for their families.They come here so they can be part of the Free Enterprise System.

i was talking about the fundamentals, not so much the specifics. but even so...small businesses will eventually be taken over....capitalism leads to monopolies....companies like wallmart ensure individual small busniesses won't last long.


the idea is good. that you can make something of yourself from nothing....but what percentage of the immigrants would you say are pretty much working minimum wage or slightly better jobs? 90%? i bet its around there

I haven't gotten through the whole thread but I'd like to interject here before I forget it. What you are describing is more corporatism than capitalism. The reason small business will eventually be taken over by bigger businesses is because of all the interferences that big businesses get passed through the government through lobbying which in turn allows those big businesses to be able to buyout these smaller businesses.

Example: if capitalism was at work here, any and all banks would be allowed to fail no matter how big they are. if capitalism was at work here, chances are those huge banks would've never been able to become as big as they are because competition would've been allowed to compete unhindered. Unfortunately, corporatism prevails and everyone mislables it as capitalism and thus capitalism earns a bad reputation for being the reason why our system has been so corrupt.

EDIT: Vinny Goomba says things I wanted to say much better than my post here

blondieblue227

cincybearcat wrote:

Sure, there is greed in captialism...because people are free to choose how they act and some people are greedy. Capitalism is really only ugly when it stops involving making people's lives better through innovation and starts being the need to make more $ off of only $, not innovation.

One other problem with captialism is individuals that are not hard-working or have been dealt a disadvantage of some kind do fall behind. So there is a need to help take care of those people...and who do you take care of and to what level?

i agree.
and what happens when the poor pop gets poorer and grows larger? a Dem President is elected.

Cosmo

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

Sounds like everyone is making pretty good points... both for and against. I believe Capitalism is both good and bad... just as Socialism has good and bad points.
I hear people say, 'Government needs to get out of the way and let market forces decide'. That means, as an example, when a hurricane is coming towards the Florida panhandle, Wal-Mart can charge 25 bucks for gallon jugs of water and 15 bucks for a 4 pack of D-Cell batteries. Home Depot can charge 100 bucks for 3/4 inch plywood. Market is driving the demand... why not accept these prices?
Then, there is the downside to Government intervention into commerce. You do not want to regulate companies out of business.
But, there needs to be a right mixture of both... Free Enterprise with Government enforced regulations. If companies and businesses possessed a conscience, regulation would not be required. But, just look at our financial institutions that conducted business without regulations... look at air safety when regulation was dropped and airlines used forklifts to swap engines to cut costs. Businesses cannot be trusted... EVEN SMALL BUSINESSES. If it weren't against the law to price gouge during a disaster, small business would charge whatever desterate people are willing to pay.

I don't get your hurricane example, Cosmo. Once WalMart decides to rape people for water, people will find water elsewhere for cheaper if there is competition, and there will be (unless of course, WalMart is the only place standing?). Even so, when has the government ever stepped in and price-controlled places like WalMart in a disaster? Not to mention in times of crisis, this country has always ante'd up and taken care of our fellow man. Let's see WalMart compete $25 / gallon versus donated water from other parts of the country. If anything, I bet WalMart would donate tons of supplies themselves to either help, or for some feel-good photo op for them.

I can never understand why so many people think that with more freedom with our own money automatically comes absolute ruthlessness and lack of compassion from everyone in the country, and businesses gone wild gouging people the hardest they can. If people have more of their own money to share, you don't think they actually would? I think we are a very charitable country considering how hard we get banged in taxes as it currently stands.

Most "regulations" are written by the people that are going to be regulated by them-- banks, oil companies, pharma, agri-business, whoever. They always appear to have some language that appears to reign them all in, but it never goes that way. They legislate special rules for themselves (such as fractional reserves for banks), and they legislate their competition out of business.

True free markets probably would prevent any company from becoming so sizeable to actually be able to buy Congress on a whim. I don't think you'd have companies like WalMart be as wildly successful in an enviroment where the government simply stayed out of business as much as possible-- even with Free Trade to China and whoever else currently (but won't always) work for next to nothing. Small businesses get nailed the hardest by taxes. Take a bunch of those away by limiting government spending through true free markets, and Billy Bob's Quality Chair Shop might be able to make QUALITY chairs that last a lifetime for double the cost of a chair made overseas from WalMart that will last 2 years. Which chair would you buy?

If it is necessary to impose regulations (protecting people from dangerous conditions, fraud, theft, etc...), it should be at state and local levels.

...
Wal-Mart was an example. After the 1994 Northridge quake, several convenience stores upped the price of batteries and drinking water in the surrounding areas. This prompted the Los Angeles City and Country to pass a law stating the such practices are illegal. Los Angeles City and County ARE Governments and have set regulations on business.
And in the case of an oncoming hurricane... it does not only apply to Wal-Marts and Home Depots. Would it be okay for roadside services to jack up the prices on gasoline and food along the evacuation route? The market is dictating the price, right? If you need gas, you need gas... shouldn't the market set the price?
Another example of true capitalism is ticket scalping. The market drives up the price for tickets. TicketMaster should be able to set ticket prices at a start price and as demand for these tickets increase, so should the prices. When the ticket sales slow, they can beging to lower the prices so more people will buy. When they do... just raise the prices or lower them until all tickets are sold.
Letting businesses self-regulate is asking for trouble. The example... again, financial institutions. Their self regulation almost drove us off a cliff. what was the driving factor? Greed. They were making a mint in wages and bonuses.

he still stands

... just to clear up some misconceptions...

FREE MARKET: That condition of society in which all economic transactions result from voluntary choice without coercion.
THE STATE: That institution which interferes with the Free Market through the direct exercise of coercion or the granting of privileges (backed by coercion).
TAX: That form of coercion or interference with the Free Market in which the State collects tribute (the tax), allowing it to hire armed forces to practice coercion in defense of privilege, and also to engage in such wars, adventures, experiments, "reforms", etc., as it pleases, not at its own cost, but at the cost of "its" subjects.
PRIVILEGE: From the Latin privi, private, and lege, law. An advantage granted by the State and protected by its powers of coercion. A law for private benefit.
USURY: That form of privilege or interference with the Free Market in which one State-supported group monopolizes the coinage and thereby takes tribute (interest), direct or indirect, on all or most economic transactions.
LANDLORDISM: That form of privilege or interference with the Free Market in which one State-supported group "owns" the land and thereby takes tribute (rent) from those who live, work, or produce on the land.
TARRIFF: That form of privilege or interference with the Free Market in which commodities produced outside the State are not allowed to compete equally with those produced inside the State.
CAPITALISM: That organization of society, incorporating elements of tax, usury, landlordism, and tariff, which thus denies the Free Market while pretending to exemplify it.
CONSERVATISM: That school of capitalist philosophy which claims allegiance to the Free Market while actually supporting usury, landlordism, tariff, and sometimes taxation.
LIBERALISM: That school of capitalist philosophy which attempts to correct the injustices of capitalism by adding new laws to the existing laws. Each time conservatives pass a law creating privilege, liberals pass another law modifying privilege, leading conservatives to pass a more subtle law recreating privilege, etc., until "everything not forbidden is compulsory" and "everything not compulsory is forbidden".
SOCIALISM: The attempted abolition of all privilege by restoring power entirely to the coercive agent behind privilege, the State, thereby converting capitalist oligarchy into Statist monopoly. Whitewashing a wall by painting it black.
ANARCHISM: That organization of society in which the Free Market operates freely, without taxes, usury, landlordism, tariffs, or other forms of coercion or privilege. "Right" anarchists predict that in the Free Market people would voluntarily choose to compete more often than to cooperate; "left" anarchists predict that in the Free Market people would voluntarily choose to cooperate more often than to compete.

Robert Anton Wilson, The Illuminatus! Trilogy (New York: Dell, 1975) pp. 622-23

blondieblue227

So are you saying free market has nothing to do with capitalism?

VINNY GOOMBA

blondieblue227 wrote:

So are you saying free market has nothing to do with capitalism?

I think what he is saying is that capitalism bastardizes the free market, and then claims to actually be the free market. I agree with this.

The source of those definitions should have Drifting hopping into the batmobile to reply to this thread, as it came from "The Illuminatus! Trilogy"

he still stands

blondieblue227 wrote:

So are you saying free market has nothing to do with capitalism?

No I wouldn't say that. The relationship is this; capitalists pretend to advocate for the free market when they couldn't want anything less. A truly free market would completely undermine their privileges in our capitalist society because their "forms of coercion" (listed above) would not exist in a free market - the state, tax, usury, landlordism, etc.

But hey, this "anarchist rhetoric" probably won't be given much value in this forum...

he still stands

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

blondieblue227 wrote:

The source of those definitions should have Drifting hopping into the batmobile to reply to this thread, as it came from "The Illuminatus! Trilogy"

Oooooh! who is this Drifting fella? It is rare to meet another RAW fan! :geek:

blondieblue227

he still stands wrote:

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

blondieblue227 wrote:

The source of those definitions should have Drifting hopping into the batmobile to reply to this thread, as it came from "The Illuminatus! Trilogy"

i didn't write that. lol
and thanks for elaborating.

VINNY GOOMBA

And I've been trying to reply to Cosmo's last thread, but my browser keeps flipping out after I've typed so many lines... Anyone else having this problem? I did just download Internet Explorer 8...

I've never heard of that incident Cosmo, that is good info. I think there are a few ways to look at the scenario you describe, though:

If your store is being FLOODED with people to the point where more help is needed, or people are potentially ripping you off via mob rule / inability to sufficiently monitor your goods, I can see how it could be practical to charge more even in a crisis. There is always the scarcity factor as well-- if everyone is buying water and batteries, to the point where you personally may need them, they are definitely harder to part with-- it must become worth your while to actually part with them.

You have to wonder whether the crisis itself is more to blame for the 'greed' that ensues, as the owners of such a business must be local to the disaster, and are actually acting with their own survival in mind by trying to get a bigger piece of the pie. Isn't anyone who cares for their family to charge more for their product out of fear of money not being available, business not being available, or maybe in hopes of gaining some short term liquid money if they had to jet out of the area of danger?

I don't pretend to be a fool and say some of it isn't greed motivated, that is, the rise in prices during a time of crisis can also be credited to more survivalist motives as well.

VINNY GOOMBA

blondieblue227 wrote:

i didn't write that. lol
and thanks for elaborating.

Oops! Give me a second and I'll put a little fixin' on it.

My use of that phrase is bordering on abuse, I know.

EDIT: Oops, I guess it wasn't my bad.

VINNY GOOMBA

he still stands wrote:

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

blondieblue227 wrote:

The source of those definitions should have Drifting hopping into the batmobile to reply to this thread, as it came from "The Illuminatus! Trilogy"

Oooooh! who is this Drifting fella? It is rare to meet another RAW fan! :geek:

Oh, I guarantee if you post here you will get to know him and his beliefs really well. You will probably love 95% of what he writes, or hate it.

That being said, I don't know if he's going to be a fan of RAW, as he has some considerable issues with anyone who brands themselves to be from that school of thought-- I'm talking "Illuminatus," here. But I'll let the man speak for himself. If you haven't seen Drifting around, I'm guessing you're new here? If so, welcome to the Crazy Train. There are some serious characters on here, and I mean that in a complimentary way. I like reading what people write on this board no matter how different I find it from my own personal beliefs.

he still stands

What school of thought would that be? Have you read the book? I can't imagine anyone would be "against" this sort of book... Unless he is against parodies of conspiracy theories, anarchist literature, sex, discordian philosophy, and so on.

I am not completely new here... but it has been a looooong time since I've visited. Thanks for welcoming me back!

VINNY GOOMBA

he still stands wrote:

What school of thought would that be? Have you read the book? I can't imagine anyone would be "against" this sort of book... Unless he is against parodies of conspiracy theories, anarchist literature, sex, discordian philosophy, and so on.

I am not completely new here... but it has been a looooong time since I've visited. Thanks for welcoming me back!

Sorry man, I took the whole "Illuminati" thing literally, as if it were written by an actual Illuminist / Mason. Maybe I'll check it out? I like the definitions you posted earlier...

he still stands

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

he still stands wrote:

What school of thought would that be? Have you read the book? I can't imagine anyone would be "against" this sort of book... Unless he is against parodies of conspiracy theories, anarchist literature, sex, discordian philosophy, and so on.

I am not completely new here... but it has been a looooong time since I've visited. Thanks for welcoming me back!

Sorry man, I took the whole "Illuminati" thing literally, as if it were written by an actual Illuminist / Mason. Maybe I'll check it out? I like the definitions you posted earlier...

No problem... it is hard to get my panties in a knot!

That "brain head" as your avatar is something from my childhood and it is on the tip of my tongue but... what the hell is it? I know I'll kick myself when you tell me...

VINNY GOOMBA

he still stands wrote:

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

he still stands wrote:

What school of thought would that be? Have you read the book? I can't imagine anyone would be "against" this sort of book... Unless he is against parodies of conspiracy theories, anarchist literature, sex, discordian philosophy, and so on.

I am not completely new here... but it has been a looooong time since I've visited. Thanks for welcoming me back!

Sorry man, I took the whole "Illuminati" thing literally, as if it were written by an actual Illuminist / Mason. Maybe I'll check it out? I like the definitions you posted earlier...

No problem... it is hard to get my panties in a knot!

That "brain head" as your avatar is something from my childhood and it is on the tip of my tongue but... what the hell is it? I know I'll kick myself when you tell me...

Remember KRANG from the Ninja Turtles?

he still stands

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

Remember KRANG from the Ninja Turtles?

LOL I knew it was something burned into my brain as a kid! I could smell my parents living room, got the faint taste of Pepsi and Nacho Cheese Combo's, and got a general feeling of happiness... so I knew it had to be something I watched frequently when I was a kid.