Thoughts on capitalism

Commy

At its core capitalism is motivated by 2 of what i would call, and it may not be entirely true, but assuredly 2 of mankinds lesser traits....at its core a capitalist society is motivated by greed and selfishness. Its an environment of competition and struggle, you are pitted against your brother and neighbor, in a life long battle to 'get ahead'. Profit is the bottom line, not necessarily what's best for mankind....and i'm tempted to say rarely does it produce what's best for mankind, but assuredly sometimes....when profit is the goal...and whether or not that's true or not is irrelevant, because what is true profit is always the bottom line, and i can think of a few examples where the end result has not only been detrimental to humanity, and human beings in general, but because its profitable to do so, its actually beneficial for them to sell us the very things that make us sick, in order we pay more to treat those illnesses.

Take the fast food industry. They are feeding us shit.... literally and cheaply. The problem is the shit they feed us is making us ill. Diabetes, heart attacks, high blood pressure, low blood pressure....they have created two symbiotic industries, working together to drain our pocket books. First they feed us food that barely qualifies as sustenance....which makes us ill. We are then forced to pay for our treatment....amputated limbs and hospital bills and pills and treatment. Entire industries spawned-as the innovators and inventors are motivated-not by a desire to produce and come up with ideas that benefit society and individuals,,,but by a desire to make a profit, they are motivated by greed and selfishness. Its in their best interest to get us sick...because profit is the bottom line, not whats best for people.

catefrances

capitalism serves its purpose. in my opinion tis not a good purpose but nonetheless it is a purpose. it is about the few when it should be about the many. it is about accumulating wealth to the detriment of all those around you. it is about the winner takes it all. oh.. and im not really a fan of capitalism. those are my thoughts

WaveCameCrashin

So what about the small business owners are they evil to? For example all the immigrants that come here and start their own businesses. They come over here because they are tired of working for somebody else and shit wages. They come here so they can provide a better life for their families.They come here so they can be part of the Free Enterprise System.

Commy

prfctlefts wrote:

So what about the small business owners are they evil to? For example all the immigrants that come here and start their own businesses. They come over here because they are tired of working for somebody else and shit wages. They come here so they can provide a better life for their families.They come here so they can be part of the Free Enterprise System.

i was talking about the fundamentals, not so much the specifics. but even so...small businesses will eventually be taken over....capitalism leads to monopolies....companies like wallmart ensure individual small busniesses won't last long.


the idea is good. that you can make something of yourself from nothing....but what percentage of the immigrants would you say are pretty much working minimum wage or slightly better jobs? 90%? i bet its around there

WaveCameCrashin

Commy wrote:

the idea is good. that you can make something of yourself from nothing....but what percentage of the immigrants would you say are pretty much working minimum wage or slightly better jobs? 90%? i bet its around there

Whatever the % may be I really don't know ,but Im sure it's a alot more then what they were making before they came here.

jlew24asu

there is no perfect system. capitalism, by far, is the most effective and allows for the most freedoms.

keeponrockin

jlew24asu wrote:

there is no perfect system. capitalism, by far, is the most effective and allows for the most freedoms.

I agree. Although I think what we have in Canada is a pretty decent system. Capitalism, but with a fair amount of government regulation.

blondieblue227

but any kind of regulation is not true capitalism right?

Jeanwah

jlew24asu wrote:

there is no perfect system. capitalism, by far, is the most effective and allows for the most freedoms.

It's all short term, though (not to mention there's nothing "free" about it anymore). Capitalism works on existing and prospective new resources. When our resources are all tapped out (and we're pretty close to consuming most of our global resources right now), where exactly will capitalism lead us then? Capitalism doesn't work on what's already consumed. It's a dog eat dog world in capitalism country and when there's no dogs left to eat, capitalism will eventually die.

justam

I think the lack of reflectiveness and consideration for the large group is a problem with Capitalism, but on the other hand, I do think it is part of the human experience that some people are more competitive and have more drive than others.

Byrnzie

Capitalism in action:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009 ... eps-rising

Executive pay keeps rising, Guardian survey finds

Executives at Britain's top companies saw their basic salaries leap 10% last year, despite the onset of the worst global recession in decades, in which their companies lost almost a third of their value amid a record decline in the FTSE.

'The Guardian's annual survey of boardroom pay reveals that the full- and part-time directors of the FTSE 100, the premier league of British business, shared between them more than £1bn.

Bonus payouts were lower, but the basic salary hikes were more than three times the 3.1% average pay rise for ordinary workers in the private sector. The big rise in directors' basic pay – more than double the rate of inflation last year – came as many of their companies were imposing pay freezes on staff and starting huge redundancy programmes to slash costs...'

jlew24asu

Jeanwah wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

there is no perfect system. capitalism, by far, is the most effective and allows for the most freedoms.

It's all short term, though (not to mention there's nothing "free" about it anymore). Capitalism works on existing and prospective new resources. When our resources are all tapped out (and we're pretty close to consuming most of our global resources right now), where exactly will capitalism lead us then? Capitalism doesn't work on what's already consumed. It's a dog eat dog world in capitalism country and when there's no dogs left to eat, capitalism will eventually die.

we are not "pretty close to consuming our global resources". what a ridiculous statement. and even if we were, capitalism would lead us towards innovation for new resources.

Jeanwah

jlew24asu wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

jlew24asu wrote:

there is no perfect system. capitalism, by far, is the most effective and allows for the most freedoms.

It's all short term, though (not to mention there's nothing "free" about it anymore). Capitalism works on existing and prospective new resources. When our resources are all tapped out (and we're pretty close to consuming most of our global resources right now), where exactly will capitalism lead us then? Capitalism doesn't work on what's already consumed. It's a dog eat dog world in capitalism country and when there's no dogs left to eat, capitalism will eventually die.

we are not "pretty close to consuming our global resources". what a ridiculous statement. and even if we were, capitalism would lead us towards innovation for new resources.

It's ignorant to say we're not. Population is at an all-time high and will continue increasing, causing vast resources to be used up, forests taken down, fossil fuels depleted, and we already have clean water issues!! Capitalism exists solely on using up these resources...unless they come up with a way to capitalize on sustainability.

http://library.thinkquest.org/26026/Eco ... imit_.html

jlew24asu

Jeanwah wrote:

It's ignorant to say we're not. Population is at an all-time high and will continue increasing, causing vast resources to be used up, forests taken down, fossil fuels depleted, and we already have clean water issues!! Capitalism exists solely on using up these resources...unless they come up with a way to capitalize on sustainability.

http://library.thinkquest.org/26026/Eco ... imit_.html

where is your proof? I didnt think so. fact is we are not in danger of anything. does the world have limit reources? of course. but there is plenty. trees grow and new fossil fuels are constantly being discovered.

but like I said, and the article confirms, capitalism will be the catalyst to drive innovation towards new energy and conservation resources.

Byrnzie

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/810

Problems in Paradise

“If the levels of consumption that...the most affluent people enjoy today were replicated across even half of the roughly 9 billion people projected to be on the planet in 2050, the impact on our water supply, air quality, forests, climate, biological diversity, and human health would be severe.”

Today’s human economies are designed with little attention to the residuals of production and consumption. Among the most visible unintended byproducts of the current economic system are environmental problems like air and water pollution and landscape degradation. Nearly all the world’s ecosystems are shrinking to make way for humans and their homes, farms, malls, and factories. WWF’s Living Planet Index, which measures the health of forests, oceans, freshwater, and other natural systems, shows a 35 percent decline in Earth’s ecological health since 1970.

Environmental Impacts of Consumption

Calculations show that the planet has available 1.9 hectares of biologically productive land per person to supply resources and absorb wastes—yet the average person on Earth already uses 2.3 hectares worth. These “ecological footprints” range from the 9.7 hectares claimed by the average American to the 0.47 hectares used by the average Mozambican.

http://www.globalissues.org/issue/235/c ... onsumerism

Consumption and Consumerism

Using latest figures available, in 2005, the wealthiest 20% of the world accounted for 76.6% of total private consumption. The poorest fifth just 1.5%...

“Over” population is usually blamed as the major cause of environmental degradation, but the above statistics strongly suggests otherwise.

cincybearcat

Are there problems with Capitalism? Sure. Greed is 1 unfortunate outcome.

BUt, it is also a system that allows great freedom for people to decide their own futures.

Do some people have an advantage over others in this pursuit? Yes. Do to the success of their parents, grandparents, etc...but that is going to be the same in any system. Also Yes, due to some injustices of the past and present (discrimination).

While Commy believes that the 2 core values of capitalism are negative, I disagree. I believe the 2 core values of capitalism are Hard-work/passion/drive/what ever you want to call it and a need to better one's life and the lives of others. Capitalism breeds inovation which give people the products they want/need in order to improve their lives.

Sure, there is greed in captialism...because people are free to choose how they act and some people are greedy. Capitalism is really only ugly when it stops involving making people's lives better through innovation and starts being the need to make more $ off of only $, not innovation.

One other problem with captialism is individuals that are not hard-working or have been dealt a disadvantage of some kind do fall behind. So there is a need to help take care of those people...and who do you take care of and to what level?

VINNY GOOMBA

First off, it's almost pointless anymore to use any labels in reference to any political or economic system, or even any political party anymore. None of them even remotely resemble their original definitions.

So, do I hate capitalism? I think that maybe I do, as what most people today claim to be CAPITALISM is really economic FASCISM by its classic definition, which is the merger of corporation and state. This is what we have here in America. I am no fan of socialism, but I might even favor pure socialism (again, the classic definition) over this system if such a thing could be realisitcally achieved.

However, where "capitalism" features a dog-eat-dog principle as its base, so much so that competition can be eliminated via strong arm of the government, a much better system would be to NEVER let this interference by the government to happen.

One example I like to use is OIL. OIL is highly subsidized with our tax dollars by the government, making prices at the pump appear to be falsely LOW. What if we didn't give all of this money to oil companies, and saw that gas was in fact actually costing us DOUBLE what we pay at the pump? Would there not be a greater incentive for everyone to switch to cleaner fuels of comparable pricing? After all, the environmental incentive, coupled with the cost incentive would provide REAL competition to gasoline. This is how innovation is born, as well as true competition which benefits the consumer. How much less carbon would we be burning? Would a bill like "Cap and Trade" even be written let alone voted on and approved?

Competition is healthy when it is made FAIR, by not allowing ANY company to gain any additional favors from the supreme authority that is our federal government. When companies are not allowed to legislate each other out of business, everybody wins. Prices are kept low, tax dollars are spent where they should be, and the fruits of our labor go a lot farther.

I advocate an Austrian Free Market Economy. And will probably stop defending capitalism as no one seems to equate capitalism system with the system I like.

OutOfBreath

Capitalism is good for innovation, and is a lot more flexible as an economic system.
Downside is that it sucks for anything we dont like to consider goods or where profit really does not make sense or doesnt exist.

The sensible solution to capitalism's ills is tempering it with social programmes and limited state intervention. That is also the way it is done in any country with any success. (Yes, also the US grudgingly)

I rather see capitalism as a tool that is useful now. We may discard it when better tools are available. In the meantime, we need to make do with what we have, and just ensure that the downsides are properly tempered by legislation and democracy.

Peace
Dan

Cosmo

Sounds like everyone is making pretty good points... both for and against. I believe Capitalism is both good and bad... just as Socialism has good and bad points.
I hear people say, 'Government needs to get out of the way and let market forces decide'. That means, as an example, when a hurricane is coming towards the Florida panhandle, Wal-Mart can charge 25 bucks for gallon jugs of water and 15 bucks for a 4 pack of D-Cell batteries. Home Depot can charge 100 bucks for 3/4 inch plywood. Market is driving the demand... why not accept these prices?
Then, there is the downside to Government intervention into commerce. You do not want to regulate companies out of business.
But, there needs to be a right mixture of both... Free Enterprise with Government enforced regulations. If companies and businesses possessed a conscience, regulation would not be required. But, just look at our financial institutions that conducted business without regulations... look at air safety when regulation was dropped and airlines used forklifts to swap engines to cut costs. Businesses cannot be trusted... EVEN SMALL BUSINESSES. If it weren't against the law to price gouge during a disaster, small business would charge whatever desperate people are willing to pay.

JOEJOEJOE

What % of the anti-capitalists here are members of the lower rung of the financial ladder?

Is there a correlation?

jlew24asu

JOEJOEJOE wrote:

What % of the anti-capitalists here are members of the lower rung of the financial ladder?

Is there a correlation?

good question. and if not Capitalism, what economic system is better?