Remeber that War? Iraq. People are still dying!
OffMeGoes
Posts: 483
Anyone see the "Outrage" by Def. Sec. Gates of the AP photo of the deceased Marine?? I am so against this war, and seeing the photos shocked me even further...even I have an ignorant mind about the reality of war and the death, destruction and emotional pain that it causes to our soldiers, their families, innocent people, innocent people's families etc. I am so grateful that the photos leaked because it has shocked me and confirmed what I always felt..... BUT...here is my point.. All the "America can do nothing Wrong, Support our Troops no matter what" crowd....PLEASE SIMPLY CONSIDER that you are not seeing the whole picture. I know this because I am supporting the troops how I know how....QUESTIONING the people that would/have sent our troops to these situations. I dont have one ounce of distrust in our soldier and I wish the side that calls me a traitor and a danger to the US would see that I am passionately supporting the troops and outraged by the cowards that dream up the world after their wars are complete. AND SIMPLY CONSIDER......JUST the possibility that what we on the anti-war side believe is true...that this was an unneccessary war, and that the people profiting from the actions of soldiers is an abuse that we cannot stand for. If it is/was an unjust war, would you walk to our side? We support the troops at a level you do not see...I am 100 percent behind America when it does right. When it is obviously being manipulated to raise money on the backs of soldiers, you owe it to them to question why we are there, and not to get your information from the people sending us to war or the people that profit from it directly.
That is all.
Other than the Christian element which really believes this is a religious cause. Eric Prince, Mr. Dobson and Mr. Falwell....I dont blame you for participating in a government funded crusade that you profit from, especially since you think you will be taken during the rapture. It is your insane belief in your god and his wishes that makes America a launching pad for death and suffering around the world.
Zoriah.com has the photos for anyone interested to learn about real suffering and death.
That is all.
Other than the Christian element which really believes this is a religious cause. Eric Prince, Mr. Dobson and Mr. Falwell....I dont blame you for participating in a government funded crusade that you profit from, especially since you think you will be taken during the rapture. It is your insane belief in your god and his wishes that makes America a launching pad for death and suffering around the world.
Zoriah.com has the photos for anyone interested to learn about real suffering and death.
Formally known as Tackalac before being formally known as Vedderwt,,,,....release my old name and posts....
I saw a wino eating grapes, I said, "Dude, you have to wait"
I saw a wino eating grapes, I said, "Dude, you have to wait"
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Also, I know you have more casualties, but EVERY casualty in Canada is treated as a big deal.
I have always been against the War in Iraq, but supported the War in Afghanistan. I am re-thinking my position on Afghanistan because we (America) has allowed that to fester into a clusterfuck of a different color with our 6 years of neglect. I think it is time we say 'Fuck it'.
Not because I'm a coward or un-Patriotic or a terrorist sympathiser or a peacenik ro a treehugger... rather, I don't think we will ever 'defeat' the ideology that fundamentalists carry. All they have to do is survive. The only way to declare a victory is to eliminate the source... radical Islamic views. That's not going to happen, just like we will never rid the world of radical leftist or reactionary right-wing ideology. no matter how hard we try... we will NEVER eliminate radical elements of fundamental religious belief.
The Middle East is similar to Viet Nam in the sense that we did not take culture, language, religion and local customs into consideration. All the Viet Cong had to do was survive.... which they did. Both wars are fought on their home field where the locals know the variables because they live there. We come from the other side of the planet and our cultural diofferences might as well be from another planet.
And we cannot take the lesson learned in Iraq and apply them to Afghanistan... just as you cannot apply the same set of rules from Mexico and apply them in the United States. The idea that just because Iraq and Afghanistan are in the same location and all things are interchangable is as idiotic as believeing the same holds true for the United States and Mexico.
...
Does this mean we are waving the white flag? It all depends on if you are so inclined to believe all the world is black and white or not. I see it more as a switch in strategy where we work on securing our homeland and work towards containment of those radical elements.
But, it's time to 'Support Our Troops' by bringing them home to their loved ones... alive.
Hail, Hail!!!
Good post...
I'm at the point too where I wish we'd just get out of Iraq & Afghanistan... like you said, we can't eliminate radical islamic views. If we'd kill 99% of them, the it will just grow again, probably stronger.
I say get the fuck out at this point, focus our efforts to infiltrate that world with our intelligence operatives to the best of our abilities, work with allies to keep an eye on the area/culture, and continue doing all we can to try to keep money (and obviously weapons) from being funneled to the extremists.
As to how you get out without looking like you are giving up to both our citizens, and the rest of the world, I have no idea...
was like a picture
of a sunny day
“We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.”
― Abraham Lincoln
...are those who've helped us.
Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Yes that seems to be true especially since Obama said he would bring them home now and I'm still waiting for him to do so. It matters noe to me whether it's difficult to get out or not the troops need to come home.
Peace
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*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
I supported the War in Afghanistan throughout the Bush years and thought that if there was a re-focus back to Afghanistan, we could achieve success there.
Now that we have shifted grears towards Afghanistan... I believe it is too far gone and we missed that off ramp way back there and the situation is truely FUBAR. Afghanistan is a basket case in my opinion. The best we can do is let the mess we've created sort things out amongst themselves and keep a vigilant eye on them.
As for Hamid Karzhid... we got the warlord were created.
Hail, Hail!!!
Absolutely. I read where the "goverment" in Afghanistan ia the second weakest in the world. Second only to Somalia. I hate to say it will never change.....but I don't think we can make it change.
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By Patrick Martin
15 September 2007
'As part of its campaign to justify a long-term US occupation of Iraq, the Bush administration has increasingly resorted to warning of chaos and even genocide in the wake of a withdrawal of American troops. But a new report suggests that something akin to genocide is already taking place, under American auspices.
The British polling agency ORB reported Thursday that the death toll in Iraq since the 2003 US invasion has passed the one million mark.
According toORB, US-occupied Iraq, with an estimated 1.2 million violent deaths, has “a murder rate that now exceeds the Rwanda genocide from 1994 (800,000 murdered),” with another one million wounded and millions more driven from their homes into internal or external exile.
ORB (Opinion Research Business), which has conducted polls in Iraq since 2005, released the findings of a survey of 1,461 adults across the country. Among other questions, it asked: “How many members of your household, if any, have died as a result of the conflict in Iraq since 2003 (i.e., as a result of violence rather than a natural death such as old age)? Please note that I mean those who were actually living under your roof.”
Of those responding, 78 percent said their households had experienced no violent deaths, 16 percent had experienced one death, 5 percent two deaths, 1 percent three deaths or more. Given the number of households in the country, 4,050,597 according to 2005 census figures, this works out to nearly 1.2 million deaths.
By far the worst death rate was in Baghdad, where nearly half of all those interviewed reported at least one violent death in their household. The reported death rate in Diyala province (Baquba) was 42 percent, and in Ninewa province (Mosul), 35 percent.
The survey found that 48 percent of the violent deaths were due to gunshot wounds, 20 percent to car bombs, 9 percent to aerial bombardment, 6 percent to other ordnance or explosions, and 6 percent to accidents.
The figure for aerial bombardments is particularly noteworthy since such deaths—numbering well over 100,000 according to the ORB study—go virtually unreported in the American media. This is doubtless because such killings are entirely the work of the US and British occupation forces, the only ones equipped with helicopters and warplanes.
The ORB survey found a far higher death rate than the figures released by Western media outlets, the US-established Iraqi government in Baghdad, or the United Nations. But it dovetails with the public health survey conducted last year by a team of scientists from Johns Hopkins University and published in the British medical journal Lancet, which estimated the death toll (as of early 2006, nearly 18 months ago), at about 665,000.
The Lancet figures were denounced by the US and Iraqi governments and dismissed by the American media, and the ORB figures are likely to face the same fate. The study’s findings were reported only in passing in Friday’s daily newspapers, most prominently by the Los Angeles Times and Boston Globe, not at all by the New York Times or Washington Post.
None of the network evening news broadcasts on Friday even mentioned the ORB report.
Opinion Research Business is not a left-wing or antiwar group, but an established polling organization, founded in 1994 by Gordon Heald, who headed Gallup Britain from 1980 to 1994. Its customers include the huge mining concern Anglo American, the Bank of Scotland, and the Conservative Party. Its non-executive director is Geoffrey Martin OBE, currently special adviser to the secretary general on strategic relationships of the British Commonwealth.
The ORB survey was based on face-to-face interviews conducted between August 12 and August 19 among a nationally representative sample of 1,720 adults (of whom 1,461 responded), with a standard margin of error of 2.4 percent. Random sampling was used to select those interviewed in 15 of Iraq’s 18 provinces.
For security reasons, no interviews were conducted in Al Anbar or Karbala provinces, or in the province of Irbil, where Kurdish authorities refused to allow field interviews. Since Anbar and Karbala are among the bloodiest battlefields of the war, and Irbil among the quietest, the exclusion of the three provinces would more likely to lead to an underestimation of the death toll than an exaggeration.
The ORB study was made public on the same day that President Bush went on national television to deliver a report on conditions in Iraq that was nothing short of delusional. With a million Iraqis dead, a million wounded, and four to five million displaced, Bush hailed the return of “normal life” to the devastated country. “Sectarian killings are down, and ordinary life is beginning to return,” he said.
The next day Bush and Vice President Cheney appeared before hand-picked audiences to press their campaign for an unlimited US occupation of Iraq. Bush spoke at the Marine base at Quantico, Virginia and Cheney at the Gerald Ford Museum in Michigan and the headquarters of the Central Command in Florida.
Cheney claimed that the result of a rapid US troop withdrawal would be “chaos” and “carnage,” declaring, “In all the calls we’ve heard for an American withdrawal from Iraq, these negative consequences haven’t really been denied, they’ve simply been ignored.”
Cheney raised the specter of Iranian intervention in a post-US Iraq, which “would unloose an all-out war, with the violence unlikely to be contained within Iraq. The ensuing carnage would further destabilize the Middle East and magnify the threat to our friends throughout the region.”
Bush, speaking before an audience of 250 Marines and their families in Quantico, claimed, “We got security in the right direction and we are bringing our troops home.”
Also Friday, the State Department quietly released a report noting that religious freedom has sharply deteriorated in Iraq over the past year because of the upsurge in sectarian killings, with minority religions (Sunnis in Shiite areas, Shiites in Sunni areas, secular Iraqis, Christians and smaller groups in all areas) subjected to systematic persecution.
The report cited “frequent sectarian violence including attacks on places of worship,” as well as “harassment, intimidation, kidnapping, and killings,” adding that “non-Muslims (are) especially vulnerable to pressure and violence, because of their minority status and, often, because of the lack of a protective tribal structure.”
The Democratic Party is fully complicit in the creation of conditions of near-genocide in Iraq, since the congressional Democratic leadership has refused to cut off funding for a war which has cost the lives of more than one million Iraqis, as well as over 3,700 American soldiers.
In response to Bush’s Thursday night speech, there were renewed professions of impotence by leading Senate Democrats. Barack Obama, who began his campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination touting his antiwar credentials, said the Democratic-controlled Congress could not force Bush to accept a deadline for ending the war.
“One way of ending the war would be setting a timetable,” he said in a speech in Iowa. “We’re about 15 votes short. Right now it doesn’t look like we’re going to get that many votes.”
Obama was referring to the 67 votes required in the Senate to override a presidential veto. He was silent on the fact that there are other constitutional methods of ending the war, such as refusing to appropriate the funds to finance it, which the Democratic congressional leadership has rejected.
Senator Kent Conrad of North Dakota, chair of the Senate Budget Committee, told Congressional Quarterly, “The truth is we don’t have the votes to end the war.” He said Senate Democrats would seek to “move the things that we can move on domestic issues” in order to “have tangible accomplishments,” rather than persist in debates on Iraq.
Other senators endorsed this view, including Charles Schumer of New York, who said, referring to the upcoming 2008 campaign, “This election is shaping up to be about change. Not only change in Iraq, but change at home.” Senator Ken Salazar of Colorado said, “The Democratic message has to focus on things that are good for the middle class. The war should not be the only issue.”
In the House of Representatives, Speaker Nancy Pelosi has not scheduled any vote on Iraq war policy this month, although the defense authorization bill still remains to be adopted for the fiscal year beginning October 1. All indications are that the congressional Democrats will rubber-stamp both the authorization and the emergency funding bill for the war, expected to approach $200 billion, which has not yet been sent to Congress by the Bush administration.
The silence from the Democratic and Republican parties and the media on the latest evidence of mass killing and social devastation in Iraq as a result of the US colonial war and occupation underscores the complicity of the entire American ruling elite and all of its official institutions in a war crime of catastrophic proportions.'
U.S. regrets civilian deaths in Afghanistan
Fri Sep 4, 2009 2:01pm EDT
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The White House expressed "grave concern" on Friday at reports that civilians were killed in a U.S. attack on hijacked fuel trucks in Afghanistan.
A U.S. warplane, after receiving authorization from a German commander in the NATO coalition, fired on hijacked fuel trucks in Afghanistan before dawn on Friday, killing as many as 90 people.
NATO initially said it believed the casualties were all Taliban fighters, but later acknowledged that large numbers of wounded civilians were being treated in hospitals in the area.
White House spokesman Robert Gibbs expressed regret that any civilians were killed.
"Obviously anytime there is loss of life in a conflict like this, particularly civilian life, it's something that we've expressed in the past and continue to express grave concern about. It's my understanding that this incident will be investigated," Gibbs told reporters.
"war on terror"
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And since he took "over" the outcry that it is un-American to not trust our President, that it is almost treasonous to question our President, disrespectful to not faithfully follow our president has sure died down a lot......
And, actually, those blissful demands have been replaced with accusations by the most mainstream of the right that he is possibly not even an American. No hypocrisy there...
Our "LIBERAL MEDIA" still doesnt show the war in Iraq, and even less so now. So, the reason you think people are not "crying out" now has nothing to due with your assertion that people on the left only wanted them home while/because Bush was President. Number one, Obama is bringing them home. Number two, the people wanting us out are thoughtful enough to know that we have, unfortunately, done so much damage there that we owe it to the world to not pull out with no care for what occurs. Number three, Eric Prince. Number four, we had a government that said it couldnt even set a hypothetical timetable for withdraw as it may cause comfort to the enemy........so fucking stupid........so the left rightfully feared the possibility of infinite occupation. What is happening now is what we want. They are coming home. Our heroes are coming home....to an America filled with mouthbreathing christian whackos that will spill other peoples blood since they believe this country is the ultimate creation of God and the rest of the world is ours to convert and exploit. This isnt the story of two sides of america that just see things slightly differently and that just need to resolve our differences through a bit more openness and understanding. Nope...the reason it is so divided is because we are two different people......There are two sides with two distinct goals that oppose eachother in almost every way. One is faith based and all built around the radical notion that god has a plan and that we are on the correct side of something bigger. The other is science based and rational, human centric, empathetic and curious about the world and the history of man. I understand the passion in the opposition to Obama...he is a threat to the ignorance preserved by religion and the established powers built on through the disaster known as christianity. He truly is a threat....white men, racist to the bone, are terrified of what is going on....and to have him talk to their kids at school and POSSIBLY be a source of inspiration to them, probably chemically changes their brains and fills them with rage......we are a threat to them, we have the ability to be an alternative, and when you have a fetished obsession with not questioning anything, a person that offers liberal and open ideas; who is themselves seeking truth through scientific process and love of information, you do whatever you can to protect the totalitarian world you abused people's minds to build. And yes, I admit that those small minded people are a threat to my side. Fuck, they are a threat to the world......We are 5 percent of the world's population and 50 percent of that is fucking up the entire world. Not because they believe in god, but because the radically believe in god and have been exploited by people that have exploited and changed the message that religion stands for. I dont know if Jesus even existed, but I know he isnt coming back. The insanity of religious fundamentalism is as dangerous for each and every religion.....a radical islamist is the same exact thing as a radical christian, just in a different package..........if you think you are guided by god and on the side of good, and you mix in the distinctly american idea that money and power are virtues of god, and you are protecting your passage into the afterlife by fighting for the message of god, you, my friend, are an insane, ignorant, dangerous, brainwashed, disastrous, moronic, diseased threat to anything good humans are capable of accomplishing.
There is no desire to have any factual information out there. Unfortunately, the people accusing Obama of being Fascist (while oddly Communist at the same time) dont realize that they are, themselves, distracting everyone while corporations benefit as they close in on gaining full influence and control of government function. It is beautifully ignored but far from masked. If you had any idea of what Fascism really is, you would be scared of the relationship and the synergy born between corporate america and the government. Afterall, that is what you would look for if you wanted to find the roots of fascism developing, not doing corporate dirty work by fighting for their rights and destroying the balance provided only by government regulation.
So, healthcare is the forum that is displaying all of this. You have massive corporations, making BILLIONS of dollars from preventing medical care to patients...they are the ones that have developed this town hall rebelions, and they have somehow figured out how to exploit and misinform the very patients that they are profiting from to go disrupt these town halls and make a great sound bites......then, Fox (cant pull myself to call them News even to simply identify them) has a preset agenda...not to share anything fair or balanced, not to even give an opposing view to what is known as liberal media....but an agenda that is as fair and as flexible and as dynamic as its corporate sponsors need it to be. Fox is the mouthpiece for corporate interests and nothing more.....well, I am presuming you know the corporate interest shared with Christian megagroups....money.
And Obama is doing what. Trying to find a way to combat the stranglehold a corporate system has on healthcare. Trying to offer CHOICE in the system and offer health care to the poor amongst us. Trying to get health care to the sick, the poor, the children..... Who is more Christian by action.......Obama, or the Glenn Beck and hannity's of the world. I would love if Jesus came back and met James dobson and obama in the same room. I know Jesus would smile at Obama and shed a tear of pain when he looked into the soul of Mr. Dobson. Then he would come onto these message boards and ask me why on earth some of these people listen to Pearl Jam when they would seemingly have nothing in common with the band's soul, message, outreach, beliefs, purpose, strength, intellect, causes, hopes, fears and faith in diversity and science. I am always so stunned that a Pearl Jam fanatic can be republican......its like being a fan Boats but spending your life doing everything you can to destroy water.
I saw a wino eating grapes, I said, "Dude, you have to wait"
That should be in the next issue of Deep. Nice post
Hahahaha....thanks....I didnt even reread it...... just now re-read it and found a few typos. Amazing what two vicodin and a whole lot of time in the middle of the night can do.
Gunna fire something else that I was thinking earlier and quit while I can.....
All that republicans have going for them is an inherited (from the religious backgrounds) lock step discipline across the party and a few master manipulators driving the buses. The offer NOTHING. They are political monsters with nothing behind it but self preservation through the pursuit of resource. That is why they cannot stand the smallest interspection, let alone someone else's questioning or simple observation. They are the biggest crybabies possible and never stop to amaze me at how proud they are to not know anything. For example, Sarah Pain is just a symptom of this Republican Illness....... Richard Pryor once said, Cocaine is like Money.....too much is never enough. I wont try to apply that to all of this, but it does....
I saw a wino eating grapes, I said, "Dude, you have to wait"
No... it was about Bush because Iraq is Bush's War. Iraq was the wrong war and a gross misappropriation of U.S. military resources.
Afghanistan was America's War with the perpetrators of the September 11, 2001 attacks... Bush was the decider that decided to derail Afghanistan and go after Saddam Hussein.
...
But, that train left the station and Afghanistan has degenerated to situation that is going to take much longer to resolve that it was in 2002.
Hail, Hail!!!
i think afghanistan was and is just as much of an occupation as iraq was and is.
Well... I didn't think i'd have to explain this... because it is recent history and I'd think that you would remember.
Al qaeda took the fight to us on September 11, 2001. They were trainned in openly advertised terrorist training facilities in Afghanistan. The were hosted in the Taliban controlled Afghanistan, who refused our continued requests to give them up. They forced their hand by denying all requests from not only the United States, but from the World Community.
A year into the Afghanistan campaign, the Bush administration set their sights on Iraq. They sold it to the American people as the 'Smoking Gun' W.M.D.s... if it 'Quacks like a Duck' simplistic rhetoric that idiot America took... hook, line and sinker. We were told we'd be greeted as liberators and the whole thing would cost about 200 million dollars.
Both are occupations... difference being... there were German, Russian, Canadian and other NATO Allied troops in Afghanistan because there was justification for uprooting the Taliban and destroying Al Qaeda. Iraq had nothing to do with September 11, 2001... it was the hatred of Saddam Hussein by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Co.
...
Weren't you alive in 2002/2003?
Hail, Hail!!!
Well... I do feel that when a foriegn entity... whether state sponsored or otherwise... commits an act of war on America, a state of war exists... declared or not.
And you are free to protest on whatever grounds you see fit... that is American. But, like it or not, a criminal act was commited and bringing those responsible parties to justice was in order.
Now... the Christian thing to do would be to turn the other cheek and love thy enemy and ask why they commit such acts... but, we are not a Christian Nation... except in name only.
Hail, Hail!!!
So if a bunch of terrorists from Canada blew up a bus in De Moines, and then escaped to Italy, would you be justified in carpet bombing Rome even if the Italian government offered to hand the perpetrators over to you as long as you could provide some proof that they were guilty and/or provide sufficient evidence to warrant their extradition? Or would you just say 'No. We will not compromise. Hand these people over to us or we will bomb the shit out of you, occupy your country for 6 years, and steal your natural resources!"?
Edit: Another question: Do you think that America is above the law?
Well it all depends... If Italy openly ran terrorist trainning facilities that propigated groups that had global reach... and the rest of the world community used up its diplomatic resources and Italy continued to host the ones who freely claimed credit for the attacks and continued to fund their terrorist facilities... then, I guess my answer would be... Yes. The United States along with their European and NATO Allies would be left with no other alternative than use of military force.
And NO... I do not believe that America... or anyone is 'Above The Law'. Which one of my comments/statements triggered this question?
Hail, Hail!!!
So are you saying that the U.S government used up it's diplomatic resources with regards to the Taliban? If so, please elaborate.
Your comment/statement that says that the U.S had the right to bomb the shit out of Afghanistan, and occupy their land in order to apprehend some Saudi Arabians who were allegedly responsible for a crime committed in America.
But then I suppose we shouldn't apply the same standard here and say that America should therefore be bombed and occupied.
They went through the only country with diplomatic ties to Afghanistan, Pakistan (who, originally set-up the Taliban in Afghanistan after the Soviet Union withdrew its forces in the early 90s(?) to talk to Taliban leaders to turn over Bin Laden and open their trainning camps for inspection. Up to September 11, 2001... there were only 3 countries with diplomatic ties to Afghanistan... Saudi Arabia and U.A.E. (or was it Qutar?) cut their ties after the attacks in New York and Washington, D.C.
Remember, the Taliban was set up by Pakistani Intelligence services as a safe house for Islamic fundamentalist to deal with thier own internal problems with them. The Taliban set up a fundamentalist state under Shiria Law.
So, yeah... the only open diplomatic channel was used and the Taliban refused to comply and offered to try Bin Laden in Islamic Court in Afghanistan... a court system that is probably not one of gleeming examples of justice, in my opinion. What was negotiated between the two.. i have no idea. But, that channel was used.
...
Yeah... I was paying attention to all of this and supported this action...
But, not anymore. I feel it is a lost cause and a basket case. I feel we might have had greater success, had we 'Stayed The Course' in Afghanistan, instead of going after Saddam Hussein. But now.. it is so fucked up... there's nothing we can do to help.
Futhermore... I believe the United States now needs to pay restitution to both Afghanistan and Iraq for shitting all over the place and making it even worse than it was when we went in there. We should be held responsible and accountable for our actions. Back in 2002... I felt differnt about Afghanistan. Today, I say it's time to bring our troops home... and pay for the damages we've inflicted of those countries. If it bankrupts us... well... we should of thought of that in 2003.
Hail, Hail!!!
Sorry... but, i'm gonna pull the politician card and say, "I cannot recall".
You are going to have to pull the exact sentence from one of my posts to refresh my memory... because i cannot locate it.
Hail, Hail!!!