This forum has gone to shit

my2hands

we are currently still engaged in 2 wars and there is not 1 thread on the front page about them... but at the same time there are 4-5 threads about bullshit conspiracies, free masons, jay-z, and symbols

what happened to this place?

Jeanwah

Why don't you start one instead of complaining about the absence of one?

blondieblue227

i miss the free for all pit when it comes to the moving train. it was way more fun....if that's what you want to call it.

tybird

Two wars? I'm counting one war and one occupation....or is that two occupations??? :twisted:

chris32482

America is in a state of perpetual war. Haven't you ever heard of the Military-Industrial Complex?

norm

tybird wrote:

Two wars? I'm counting one war and one occupation....or is that two occupations??? :twisted:

regardless of what it's called, the kids are still dying...



July, August deadliest months of Afghan war for US

KABUL – A roadside bomb and gunfire attack killed a U.S. service member in southern Afghanistan on Thursday, a death that pushed August into a tie with July as the deadliest months of the eight-year war.

The death brought to 44 the number of U.S. troops who have died in Afghanistan this month with four days left in August.

More than 60,000 U.S. troops are in the country — a record number — to fight rising insurgent violence. The number of roadside bombs deployed by militants across the country has skyrocketed, and U.S. forces have moved into new and deadlier areas this summer, in part to help secure the country's Aug. 20 presidential election.

The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan released his new counterinsurgency strategy Thursday, telling troops that the supply of militants is "effectively endless" and that U.S. and NATO forces need to see the country through the eyes of its villagers.

Gen. Stanley McChrystal said troops "must change the way that we think, act and operate." McChrystal hopes to install a new approach to counterinsurgency where troops will make the safety of villagers the top priority, above killing an endless supply of militants.

"An insurgency cannot be defeated by attrition; its supply of fighters, and even leadership, is effectively endless," the new guidelines said.

When U.S. and NATO troops battle a group of 10 militants and kill two of them, the relatives of the two dead insurgents will want revenge and will likely join the insurgency, the guidelines say, spelling out the formula: "10 minus 2 equals 20 (or more) rather than 8."

"This is part of the reason why eight years of individually successful kinetic actions have resulted in more violence," McChrystal said.

He called on troops to think of how they would expect a foreign army to operate in their home countries, "among your families and your children, and act accordingly," to try to win over the Afghan population.

Violence is on the rise in Afghanistan even as it falls in Iraq, where nearly twice as many U.S. troops are still based. Five U.S. troops have died in Iraq this month, three fewer than in July.

A statement from the NATO-led force in Kabul said the U.S. service member died in southern Afghanistan when a patrol responded to the bombing and gunfire attack. No other details were released. Militants unleashed a wave of attacks in southern Afghanistan last week that helped suppress voter turnout there.

Afghan election officials have released two batches of vote tallies that show President Hamid Karzai with 44.8 percent of the vote and top challenger Abdullah Abdullah with 35.1 percent, based on returns from 17 percent of polling stations. The next partial results are expected Saturday.

Meanwhile, U.S. and Afghan forces battled Taliban militants at a medical center in eastern Afghanistan after a Taliban commander sought treatment there, and a U.S. helicopter gunship fired on the clinic after militants put up resistance.

Reports of the militant death toll from Wednesday's firefight varied widely. The spokesman of the governor of Paktika province said 12 militants died, while police said two were killed. It wasn't clear why the tolls differed.

The fighting began after a wounded Taliban commander sought treatment at a clinic in the Sar Hawza district of Paktika. Afghan forces went to the center and got in a firefight with militants. U.S. forces later provided backup.

Hamidullah Zhwak, the governor's spokesman, said the Taliban commander was wounded Aug. 20. Militants brought him and three other wounded Taliban to the clinic Wednesday. Afghan forces were tipped off to their presence and soon arrived at the scene, he said.

Insurgent snipers fired from a tower near the clinic, and troops called in an airstrike from U.S. forces, Zhwak said. Fighting between some 20 militants and Afghan and U.S. forces lasted about five hours, and 12 Taliban were killed, he said.

"After ensuring the clinic was cleared of civilians, an AH-64 Apache helicopter fired rounds at the building ending the direct threat and injuring the targeted insurgent in the building," a U.S. military statement said.

A U.S. military spokeswoman, Lt. Cmdr. Christine Sidenstricker, said the clinic's doctor gave U.S. troops permission to fire on the clinic. After the battle, Afghan and U.S. forces met with villagers and discussed rebuilding the clinic, a U.S. summary of the meeting said.

Villagers expressed "disgust" that militants used the medical center to fire from and that they understood that the action by Afghan and coalition forces was necessary, the summary said.

Seven insurgents — including the wounded commander — had been detained, the U.S. statement said.

Gen. Dawlat Khan, the provincial police chief, said two militants died in the encounter.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090827/ap_ ... nistan_202

gabers

norm wrote:

tybird wrote:

Two wars? I'm counting one war and one occupation....or is that two occupations??? :twisted:

regardless of what it's called, the kids are still dying...



July, August deadliest months of Afghan war for US

KABUL – A roadside bomb and gunfire attack killed a U.S. service member in southern Afghanistan on Thursday, a death that pushed August into a tie with July as the deadliest months of the eight-year war.

The death brought to 44 the number of U.S. troops who have died in Afghanistan this month with four days left in August.

More than 60,000 U.S. troops are in the country — a record number — to fight rising insurgent violence. The number of roadside bombs deployed by militants across the country has skyrocketed, and U.S. forces have moved into new and deadlier areas this summer, in part to help secure the country's Aug. 20 presidential election.

The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan released his new counterinsurgency strategy Thursday, telling troops that the supply of militants is "effectively endless" and that U.S. and NATO forces need to see the country through the eyes of its villagers.

Gen. Stanley McChrystal said troops "must change the way that we think, act and operate." McChrystal hopes to install a new approach to counterinsurgency where troops will make the safety of villagers the top priority, above killing an endless supply of militants.

"An insurgency cannot be defeated by attrition; its supply of fighters, and even leadership, is effectively endless," the new guidelines said.

When U.S. and NATO troops battle a group of 10 militants and kill two of them, the relatives of the two dead insurgents will want revenge and will likely join the insurgency, the guidelines say, spelling out the formula: "10 minus 2 equals 20 (or more) rather than 8."

"This is part of the reason why eight years of individually successful kinetic actions have resulted in more violence," McChrystal said.

He called on troops to think of how they would expect a foreign army to operate in their home countries, "among your families and your children, and act accordingly," to try to win over the Afghan population.

Violence is on the rise in Afghanistan even as it falls in Iraq, where nearly twice as many U.S. troops are still based. Five U.S. troops have died in Iraq this month, three fewer than in July.

A statement from the NATO-led force in Kabul said the U.S. service member died in southern Afghanistan when a patrol responded to the bombing and gunfire attack. No other details were released. Militants unleashed a wave of attacks in southern Afghanistan last week that helped suppress voter turnout there.

Afghan election officials have released two batches of vote tallies that show President Hamid Karzai with 44.8 percent of the vote and top challenger Abdullah Abdullah with 35.1 percent, based on returns from 17 percent of polling stations. The next partial results are expected Saturday.

Meanwhile, U.S. and Afghan forces battled Taliban militants at a medical center in eastern Afghanistan after a Taliban commander sought treatment there, and a U.S. helicopter gunship fired on the clinic after militants put up resistance.

Reports of the militant death toll from Wednesday's firefight varied widely. The spokesman of the governor of Paktika province said 12 militants died, while police said two were killed. It wasn't clear why the tolls differed.

The fighting began after a wounded Taliban commander sought treatment at a clinic in the Sar Hawza district of Paktika. Afghan forces went to the center and got in a firefight with militants. U.S. forces later provided backup.

Hamidullah Zhwak, the governor's spokesman, said the Taliban commander was wounded Aug. 20. Militants brought him and three other wounded Taliban to the clinic Wednesday. Afghan forces were tipped off to their presence and soon arrived at the scene, he said.

Insurgent snipers fired from a tower near the clinic, and troops called in an airstrike from U.S. forces, Zhwak said. Fighting between some 20 militants and Afghan and U.S. forces lasted about five hours, and 12 Taliban were killed, he said.

"After ensuring the clinic was cleared of civilians, an AH-64 Apache helicopter fired rounds at the building ending the direct threat and injuring the targeted insurgent in the building," a U.S. military statement said.

A U.S. military spokeswoman, Lt. Cmdr. Christine Sidenstricker, said the clinic's doctor gave U.S. troops permission to fire on the clinic. After the battle, Afghan and U.S. forces met with villagers and discussed rebuilding the clinic, a U.S. summary of the meeting said.

Villagers expressed "disgust" that militants used the medical center to fire from and that they understood that the action by Afghan and coalition forces was necessary, the summary said.

Seven insurgents — including the wounded commander — had been detained, the U.S. statement said.

Gen. Dawlat Khan, the provincial police chief, said two militants died in the encounter.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090827/ap_ ... nistan_202

You know what's really fucked up? People just don't care anymore. Seriously. Five soldiers get blown to bits by a roadside bomb and people barely look at the TV. Petty shit like the length of Michelle Obama's shorts and the everlasting saga of the Jacksons and people can't get enough. Where did we go so wrong? I get pissed off every time I see some bubba or bubbet with a patriotic sticker on their car these days because I know most of them really don't give two fucks about our troops putting their lives on the lines every day for an ever more downward spiraling quagmire.

Jeanwah

gabers wrote:

You know what's really fucked up? People just don't care anymore. Seriously. Five soldiers get blown to bits by a roadside bomb and people barely look at the TV. Petty shit like the length of Michelle Obama's shorts and the everlasting saga of the Jacksons and people can't get enough. Where did we go so wrong? I get pissed off every time I see some bubba or bubbet with a patriotic sticker on their car these days because I know most of them really don't give two fucks about our troops putting their lives on the lines every day for an ever more downward spiraling quagmire.

Sounds like you're paying too much attention to our entertainment-driven mainstream media. Blame them.

Truth is, people do care. The ones who don't sit and believe everything they hear from our corrupt media and actually dig for real news. You got to let go of remote control.

fuck

gabers wrote:

I get pissed off every time I see some bubba or bubbet with a patriotic sticker on their car these days because I know most of them really don't give two fucks about our troops putting their lives on the lines every day for an ever more downward spiraling quagmire.

you know what pisses me off? how people only ever talk about how our troops are putting their lives on the line without ever mentioning the Iraqi, Afghani, and Pakistani civilians who did not choose to enroll in the army, who did not voluntarily jump in an airplane to go fight, and did not willingly pick up a gun. All they did was live and for that their lives were taken. Our troops may be putting their lives on the line but they're also partially responsible for killing tons of innocent people. 1,000,000 Iraqis have been killed in addition to thousands upon thousands of Afghani and Pakistani civilians, yet some people only ever mention the American troops.

Dirtie_Frank

_outlaw wrote:

gabers wrote:

I get pissed off every time I see some bubba or bubbet with a patriotic sticker on their car these days because I know most of them really don't give two fucks about our troops putting their lives on the lines every day for an ever more downward spiraling quagmire.

you know what pisses me off? how people only ever talk about how our troops are putting their lives on the line without ever mentioning the Iraqi, Afghani, and Pakistani civilians who did not choose to enroll in the army, who did not voluntarily jump in an airplane to go fight, and did not willingly pick up a gun. All they did was live and for that their lives were taken. Our troops may be putting their lives on the line but they're also partially responsible for killing tons of innocent people. 1,000,000 Iraqis have been killed in addition to thousands upon thousands of Afghani and Pakistani civilians, yet some people only ever mention the American troops.

Where the fuck do you get the 1 million Iraqis have been killed? And another thing yeah the people from Afghanistan did not enroll in the army but, the Taliban/afghani government was given the chance to hand over OBL, and they did not. SO OEF started. Or are you one of those guys who think the horrible US government did 9=11?

even flow - question mark

Bang up job on both fronts.

fife

gabers wrote:

norm wrote:

tybird wrote:

Two wars? I'm counting one war and one occupation....or is that two occupations??? :twisted:

regardless of what it's called, the kids are still dying...



July, August deadliest months of Afghan war for US

KABUL – A roadside bomb and gunfire attack killed a U.S. service member in southern Afghanistan on Thursday, a death that pushed August into a tie with July as the deadliest months of the eight-year war.

The death brought to 44 the number of U.S. troops who have died in Afghanistan this month with four days left in August.

More than 60,000 U.S. troops are in the country — a record number — to fight rising insurgent violence. The number of roadside bombs deployed by militants across the country has skyrocketed, and U.S. forces have moved into new and deadlier areas this summer, in part to help secure the country's Aug. 20 presidential election.

The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan released his new counterinsurgency strategy Thursday, telling troops that the supply of militants is "effectively endless" and that U.S. and NATO forces need to see the country through the eyes of its villagers.

Gen. Stanley McChrystal said troops "must change the way that we think, act and operate." McChrystal hopes to install a new approach to counterinsurgency where troops will make the safety of villagers the top priority, above killing an endless supply of militants.

"An insurgency cannot be defeated by attrition; its supply of fighters, and even leadership, is effectively endless," the new guidelines said.

When U.S. and NATO troops battle a group of 10 militants and kill two of them, the relatives of the two dead insurgents will want revenge and will likely join the insurgency, the guidelines say, spelling out the formula: "10 minus 2 equals 20 (or more) rather than 8."

"This is part of the reason why eight years of individually successful kinetic actions have resulted in more violence," McChrystal said.

He called on troops to think of how they would expect a foreign army to operate in their home countries, "among your families and your children, and act accordingly," to try to win over the Afghan population.

Violence is on the rise in Afghanistan even as it falls in Iraq, where nearly twice as many U.S. troops are still based. Five U.S. troops have died in Iraq this month, three fewer than in July.

A statement from the NATO-led force in Kabul said the U.S. service member died in southern Afghanistan when a patrol responded to the bombing and gunfire attack. No other details were released. Militants unleashed a wave of attacks in southern Afghanistan last week that helped suppress voter turnout there.

Afghan election officials have released two batches of vote tallies that show President Hamid Karzai with 44.8 percent of the vote and top challenger Abdullah Abdullah with 35.1 percent, based on returns from 17 percent of polling stations. The next partial results are expected Saturday.

Meanwhile, U.S. and Afghan forces battled Taliban militants at a medical center in eastern Afghanistan after a Taliban commander sought treatment there, and a U.S. helicopter gunship fired on the clinic after militants put up resistance.

Reports of the militant death toll from Wednesday's firefight varied widely. The spokesman of the governor of Paktika province said 12 militants died, while police said two were killed. It wasn't clear why the tolls differed.

The fighting began after a wounded Taliban commander sought treatment at a clinic in the Sar Hawza district of Paktika. Afghan forces went to the center and got in a firefight with militants. U.S. forces later provided backup.

Hamidullah Zhwak, the governor's spokesman, said the Taliban commander was wounded Aug. 20. Militants brought him and three other wounded Taliban to the clinic Wednesday. Afghan forces were tipped off to their presence and soon arrived at the scene, he said.

Insurgent snipers fired from a tower near the clinic, and troops called in an airstrike from U.S. forces, Zhwak said. Fighting between some 20 militants and Afghan and U.S. forces lasted about five hours, and 12 Taliban were killed, he said.

"After ensuring the clinic was cleared of civilians, an AH-64 Apache helicopter fired rounds at the building ending the direct threat and injuring the targeted insurgent in the building," a U.S. military statement said.

A U.S. military spokeswoman, Lt. Cmdr. Christine Sidenstricker, said the clinic's doctor gave U.S. troops permission to fire on the clinic. After the battle, Afghan and U.S. forces met with villagers and discussed rebuilding the clinic, a U.S. summary of the meeting said.

Villagers expressed "disgust" that militants used the medical center to fire from and that they understood that the action by Afghan and coalition forces was necessary, the summary said.

Seven insurgents — including the wounded commander — had been detained, the U.S. statement said.

Gen. Dawlat Khan, the provincial police chief, said two militants died in the encounter.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090827/ap_ ... nistan_202

You know what's really fucked up? People just don't care anymore. Seriously. Five soldiers get blown to bits by a roadside bomb and people barely look at the TV. Petty shit like the length of Michelle Obama's shorts and the everlasting saga of the Jacksons and people can't get enough. Where did we go so wrong? I get pissed off every time I see some bubba or bubbet with a patriotic sticker on their car these days because I know most of them really don't give two fucks about our troops putting their lives on the lines every day for an ever more downward spiraling quagmire.

it's not that people don't care, people are just tired and for most people they are thinking about their jobs and their money. when push comes to shove, people will care about themselves and their family before anyone else.

polaris_x

1. there aren't as many members on this board as there was before ...
2. debates end up circling back to the same old discussion ...
3. i think it will take a few years for the obama supporters here to realize that he just can't fix what is fundamentally wrong in america which is that it is corporately run in the interests of corporations ... i like him but a lot of people were hoping he could fix america ... he can't - he doesn't have the power to do so ... only the citizens can - and until people start engaging themselves in local and national issues - he is sunk ...
4. we need the objective conservatives back on this board - ones who just don't tow the standard right wing stances - and who rely strictly on conservative bloggers to back their opinion ... the kind that actually realized bush was a disaster well before his second term ...

fife

polaris_x wrote:

1. there aren't as many members on this board as there was before ...
2. debates end up circling back to the same old discussion ...
3. i think it will take a few years for the obama supporters here to realize that he just can't fix what is fundamentally wrong in america which is that it is corporately run in the interests of corporations ... i like him but a lot of people were hoping he could fix america ... he can't - he doesn't have the power to do so ... only the citizens can - and until people start engaging themselves in local and national issues - he is sunk ...
4. we need the objective conservatives back on this board - ones who just don't tow the standard right wing stances - and who rely strictly on conservative bloggers to back their opinion ... the kind that actually realized bush was a disaster well before his second term ...

i personally think we need more objective people on the board. i find that if a person is politically right he'she can't talk about things that they believe Obama is doing wrong becuase it always coem back to well Bush fucked it 1st. i consider myself liberal but i believe in some of things that cons. say.

Claireack

No it's not just the Americans that are there!

I went to Germany the week before last to stop with my brother & his family, he is in the British Army. I hadn't seen him since he got back from spending nearly 7 months in Afganistan. He was with a team of 8 British soldiers who worked with I think 34 members of Afgan army. They were stuck in the middle of nowhere and spent their days patrolling the green zone. They had nothing, the most basic of equipment, they had two vehicles, neither of them armoured. None of their superiors visited them to check on them, noone would deliver supplies/post to where they were, they were basically left to fend for themselves. When they needed anything they had to go and get it themselves from other camps. He said the Dutch (I think it was them) were pretty generous in giving them things - I hadn't even realised they were even there.

He also told me of the respect he had developed for those in the Afgan army he had worked with, he said they were brave men who were prepared to do what they had to for the freedom of their country.

Lots of bad things have gone on out there, he told me of a 4 year old suicide bomber, although that perhaps isn't the right term to use, the child was sent off with a bomb strapped to it and then an adult detonated the device at the appropriate time. I can imagine there is probably many more examples.

Basically before I started waffling on, what I wanted to say was that whilst my brother was there I didn't watch anything much on the news about Afganistan, the same with Iraq when he was there, Kosovo, The Gulf in fact any active war zones that he's been. I can't watch it. He didn't actually tell us what he was going to be doing in Afganistan until he got back, which to be honest I was glad of. It's not that I pretend that he's not there, I know too well that he is, but I choose not to focus on it otherwise I wouldn't be able to get on with my day to day life. My mum watches everthing and worries herself sick, I don't and believe that no news is good news and that I sure as hell would find out if something bad had happened to him.

My brother in law is also due to fly out there in a couple of weeks, although they haven't confirmed the date yet. I will be in another news blackout whilst he's there.

I am very much anti-war, but have to respect my brothers decisions in life. I don't think we should be there, but do believe that if we are we need the right equipment.

So, anyway, yes I was will be one of those not watching the news.

Claireack

fife wrote:

So, anyway, yes I was will be one of those not watching the news.

Sorry should say 'So, anyway, yes I was & will be one of those not watching the news'

Guess I should have used preview.

polaris_x

fife wrote:

i personally think we need more objective people on the board. i find that if a person is politically right he'she can't talk about things that they believe Obama is doing wrong becuase it always coem back to well Bush fucked it 1st. i consider myself liberal but i believe in some of things that cons. say.

agreed ... often we get so hung up on our own preconceived notions and biases that we aren't listening to other people's opinion ...

Pepe Silvia

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

_outlaw wrote:

gabers wrote:

I get pissed off every time I see some bubba or bubbet with a patriotic sticker on their car these days because I know most of them really don't give two fucks about our troops putting their lives on the lines every day for an ever more downward spiraling quagmire.

you know what pisses me off? how people only ever talk about how our troops are putting their lives on the line without ever mentioning the Iraqi, Afghani, and Pakistani civilians who did not choose to enroll in the army, who did not voluntarily jump in an airplane to go fight, and did not willingly pick up a gun. All they did was live and for that their lives were taken. Our troops may be putting their lives on the line but they're also partially responsible for killing tons of innocent people. 1,000,000 Iraqis have been killed in addition to thousands upon thousands of Afghani and Pakistani civilians, yet some people only ever mention the American troops.

Where the fuck do you get the 1 million Iraqis have been killed? And another thing yeah the people from Afghanistan did not enroll in the army but, the Taliban/afghani government was given the chance to hand over OBL, and they did not. SO OEF started. Or are you one of those guys who think the horrible US government did 9=11?

Afghanistan offered to hand over Bin Laden if the US provided proof of his guilt, what's wrong with that? doesn't any country want proof before extraditing someone?

the head of the ISI (Pakistan's CIA) wired Mohammed Atta a bunch of money a few days before 9/11, why did we attack Afghanistan instead?

Pepe Silvia

polaris_x wrote:

fife wrote:

i personally think we need more objective people on the board. i find that if a person is politically right he'she can't talk about things that they believe Obama is doing wrong becuase it always coem back to well Bush fucked it 1st. i consider myself liberal but i believe in some of things that cons. say.

agreed ... often we get so hung up on our own preconceived notions and biases that we aren't listening to other people's opinion ...

just don't use the word 'nazi'

Wobbie

my2hands wrote:

we are currently still engaged in 2 wars and there is not 1 thread on the front page about them... but at the same time there are 4-5 threads about bullshit conspiracies, free masons, jay-z, and symbols

what happened to this place?

I hear ya.....but, goddam, the MT can be exhausting. I go in there with all good intentions and before long I'm snapping pencils and grinding my teeth.

fuck

Dirtie_Frank wrote:

Where the fuck do you get the 1 million Iraqis have been killed?

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNew ... 7920080130
as well as many other polls conducted by other top polling groups and universities, such as Johns Hopkins. The figure is only disputed by right wing bloggers who try to justify the casualties, and the war in general.

And another thing yeah the people from Afghanistan did not enroll in the army but, the Taliban/afghani government was given the chance to hand over OBL, and they did not.

so we kill the innocent people in Afghanistan because their government refused to hand over Osama Bin Laden without proof? now that George W Bush and Dick Cheney are war criminals and responsible for all these deaths, would you think it is justifiable for the Iraqis or Pakistanis or Afghanis to begin bombing cities here until the US government handed them over to be tried in their countries?