Forced Vaccination

Corey LynnCorey Lynn Posts: 681
edited November 2009 in A Moving Train
So, I am a RN at a big hospital. They recently announced that they are requiring that we receive a flu vaccine this year. I am not sure how I feel about this. What do you guys think?



If I knew where it was I would take you there. There's much more than this
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  • don't be a girl 8-)
  • Corey LynnCorey Lynn Posts: 681
    I am a girl : )



    If I knew where it was I would take you there. There's much more than this
  • oh - ....is it free? Cus anything free is cool
  • Corey Lynn wrote:
    So, I am a RN at a big hospital. They recently announced that they are requiring that we receive a flu vaccine this year. I am not sure how I feel about this. What do you guys think?

    If you question your forced vaccination you must be a "lefty".

    Also, i'm sure someone is just about to tell you it is NOT "forced" because you are free to quit your job.

    Amerika FUCK yeah!

    Keep on rocking in the not-so-free world.
    rolling my eyes at the mass stupidity that abounds.
    -DBTS-
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • arthurdentarthurdent Posts: 969
    If you question your forced vaccination you must be a "lefty".

    I'm left-handed and I take great offense with that comment :arrow:
    Rock me Jesus, roll me Lord...
    Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
  • arthurdentarthurdent Posts: 969
    Corey Lynn wrote:
    So, I am a RN at a big hospital. They recently announced that they are requiring that we receive a flu vaccine this year. I am not sure how I feel about this. What do you guys think?


    You work in a large, enclosed building filled with imunocompromised people. Yeah, I think you should be required to get vaccinated. Better that than people dying because you were too wussy to get shot.
    Rock me Jesus, roll me Lord...
    Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
  • arthurdent wrote:
    Corey Lynn wrote:
    So, I am a RN at a big hospital. They recently announced that they are requiring that we receive a flu vaccine this year. I am not sure how I feel about this. What do you guys think?


    You work in a large, enclosed building filled with imunocompromised people. Yeah, I think you should be required to get vaccinated. Better that than people dying because you were too wussy to get shot.

    That's assuming that the flu vaccine is even effective for Corey Lynn. Some people react differently to the flu vaccine. Some it helps, and some get sick from actually getting the shot.
  • pearljgirl2010pearljgirl2010 Shillington, PA/Tuckerton, NJ Posts: 3,428
    Corey Lynn wrote:
    So, I am a RN at a big hospital. They recently announced that they are requiring that we receive a flu vaccine this year. I am not sure how I feel about this. What do you guys think?

    i think requiring vaccinations is complete and utter BS....especially in babies (I'm not gonna get started on this though...!!)
    Need a tour Travel Agent??? Pick me :-)

    Whatever you are, be a good one --Lincoln
  • Corey LynnCorey Lynn Posts: 681
    Yeah. I am not sure how I feel about this. It doesn't bother me as much as some. I have a immune disease, but apparently it is suppose to be ok for me to have the shot as long as it isn't a live vaccine. But, I guess I hate to be forced to do things to my body..I realize I have the option of quitting my job, but it is definitely not worth such drastic measures. I get at least 4 IV's a month right now and even more if I need steroids. The shot really doesn't bother me.I am a human cesspool of drugs anyway...so whats one more. I just thought it would be an interesting discussion.



    If I knew where it was I would take you there. There's much more than this
  • Corey LynnCorey Lynn Posts: 681
    and yes... I am a lefty :)



    If I knew where it was I would take you there. There's much more than this
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    I heard they're going to make it mandatory for school children to get the swine flu vaccine. I swear I'll pull my kid out of public school in the blink of an eye the minute they make vaccines mandatory for something that's not even a big epidemic any longer!
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    Corey Lynn wrote:
    So, I am a RN at a big hospital. They recently announced that they are requiring that we receive a flu vaccine this year. I am not sure how I feel about this. What do you guys think?

    Is it REALLY required? I mean, there's required and then there's required, ya know? Is there an opt-out provision? What will really happen if you decline the vaccine?
  • Corey LynnCorey Lynn Posts: 681
    I asked my boss, and he said that if you have a medical problem preventing you from getting it, then you don't have to. But, I think you have to prove it to them. I asked "well, what if it is a religious belief,or something?" (I don't even know if such a belief exists). And he just blew me off. I am always one to question authority though....usually doesn't work in my favor.



    If I knew where it was I would take you there. There's much more than this
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    Corey Lynn wrote:
    I asked my boss, and he said that if you have a medical problem preventing you from getting it, then you don't have to. But, I think you have to prove it to them. I asked "well, what if it is a religious belief,or something?" (I don't even know if such a belief exists). And he just blew me off. I am always one to question authority though....usually doesn't work in my favor.

    Yeah, people like to use the word "required" a lot and then expect everyone to just fall in line so they don't have to further address the issue. I'd like to know what would really happen if push came to shove though. Your boss probably doesn't know either.

    That being said, and while I certainly understand the personal freedom side of things, I do think it's a good idea for all healthcare providers to be vaccinated... maybe even to the point of a mandate. Tough call. Keep us posted on what you decide to do.
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    Jeanwah wrote:
    I heard they're going to make it mandatory for school children to get the swine flu vaccine. I swear I'll pull my kid out of public school in the blink of an eye the minute they make vaccines mandatory for something that's not even a big epidemic any longer!
    ...
    Let me pose this question... just for arguement's sake... so, nothing to take personally...
    Wouldn't that mean you would have to keep your un-vaccinated child under quarantine? I mean, what if he/she does become infected and passes it one to a child that is too young to get vaccinated... or some old person who hasn't been vaccinated yet? Shouldn't YOU be held responsible if those people died because of your action to not immunize your child?
    ...
    I am not a fan of anything mandatory... but, we did pretty much wipe out polio, small pox, whooping cough and other life threatening diseases with mandatory vaccinations.
    ...
    Me? Personally? I am going to get vaccinated because I turn into a real pathetic wimp when i get sick and i don't like getting sick.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
    Hail, Hail!!!
  • Cosmo wrote:
    Jeanwah wrote:
    I heard they're going to make it mandatory for school children to get the swine flu vaccine. I swear I'll pull my kid out of public school in the blink of an eye the minute they make vaccines mandatory for something that's not even a big epidemic any longer!
    ...
    Let me pose this question... just for arguement's sake... so, nothing to take personally...
    Wouldn't that mean you would have to keep your un-vaccinated child under quarantine? I mean, what if he/she does become infected and passes it one to a child that is too young to get vaccinated... or some old person who hasn't been vaccinated yet? Shouldn't YOU be held responsible if those people died because of your action to not immunize your child?
    ...
    I am not a fan of anything mandatory... but, we did pretty much wipe out polio, small pox, whooping cough and other life threatening diseases with mandatory vaccinations.
    ...
    Me? Personally? I am going to get vaccinated because I turn into a real pathetic wimp when i get sick and i don't like getting sick.

    Want to build up and maintain a healthy, well functioning immune system by overcoming exposure naturally?
    You're a criminal, and can be convicted of manslaughter.

    Nice.

    The bigger point here is that forced immunizations for public servants, health workers, and armed forces only serve as "logical" neural linguistic jumping points for steering the mass consciousness towards more general acceptance of such practices, and paves the way for all kinds of unpleasant possibilities.

    Here is a good article page i like on Common rights vs. collective rights, which i think is generally applicable here. Oddly enough, i'm forced to agree with Ayn Rand on this one -- your individual right to life is your only superseding right from which every other ancillary right is sprung.

    Following this, you have the right to get a vaccine. You have the right to stay away from public places if you are afraid of transmission even with your vaccine (that you would like to force upon everyone), and you have the right to fund humanitarian outreach to provide subsidized vaccination and education outreach for those too poor to pay for their own vaccine or ignorant to understand the value.

    You do NOT have the right to compel someone else to take a vaccine, thus violating their OWN individual right to judge for their own safety and well being on their own. What if i have a previously known history of bad reactions to vaccines, or am concerned about the commonly accepted best practice or with the specific vaccine being offered (or forced)?

    You do NOT have the right to relocate someone by forced quarantine, thus utterly and supremely violating that persons own individual rights.

    Imagine a United States where the government claims ALL known political dissidents to be infected, and these poor souls are shipped off to the work camps or worse, under the guise of the perceived (poorly argued, inherently unfair, and not traditionally recognized by western legal tradition) collective right against infection from a neighbor. Who would stand up for these poor "infected" souls in your world? No one. They would all just be glad to be rid of the safety hazard of another human being, a jerk who didn't follow the rules. Get your injection or go to jail.

    I don't know.
    I don't like it.
    Not one bit.
    If I was to smile and I held out my hand
    If I opened it now would you not understand?
  • Corey Lynn wrote:
    I am a human cesspool of drugs anyway...so whats one more. I just thought it would be an interesting discussion.

    Don't give up, Corey Lynn! Here's a good quote from Saying No to Vaccines by Dr. Sherri J. Tenpenny, M.D: "Ask the person who insists that you submit to a flu shot to take personal and/or corporate responsibility in the event that you sustain a serious reaction from a vaccine you were forced to take against your will."

    She also suggests, "Find like-minded, educated co-workers to support your decision." But I don't imagine they would be easy to find...

    The book says that 36% of health-care workers took the influenza vaccine in 2003. Gosh, even the general pop is more vaccinated than that nowadays. So the fear-mongering to vaccinate almost everyone is a new bandwagon. (Also in 2003, 78% of small tots under 2 had NEVER gotten a flu shot. What is the big scary risk all of a sudden? Fear itself?) Only 12 states have specific laws allowing health care workers to refuse shots on the grounds of Philosophical Objection, Medical Reason, Religious Objection, Proof of immunity, or simple refusal. Only 5 states allow refusal for hospital employees. Your state is not listed under your avatar, but you should look this up. On the plus side, I can't find any states with laws mandating vaccination. It seems that employees don't legally need to submit, BUT they don't have the right to refuse. There's the law for ya! Workers have taken employers to court over their right to refuse. And won!

    You have an immune disease and take drugs for it. My immune system is a mess of allergies to many common foods. I've not gotten a vaccine in 19 years. I eat vegetarian, mostly organic food. I don't drink, smoke, or take OTC or prescription drugs. The majority of Americans are ill: Welcome to Pharmageddon.
    "May you live in interesting times."
  • arthurdentarthurdent Posts: 969
    Jeanwah wrote:
    I heard they're going to make it mandatory for school children to get the swine flu vaccine. I swear I'll pull my kid out of public school in the blink of an eye the minute they make vaccines mandatory for something that's not even a big epidemic any longer!

    My mother used to work as a school librarian. She'd had breathing trouble for several years, but she was doing OK. Then she picked up a bug from one of her students. After spending 3 weeks in the hospital, she is now on disability and is tied to an oxygen cylinder 24/7.

    So, yes, your kid is getting vaccinated.
    Rock me Jesus, roll me Lord...
    Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
  • Corey Lynn wrote:
    So, I am a RN at a big hospital. They recently announced that they are requiring that we receive a flu vaccine this year. I am not sure how I feel about this. What do you guys think?
    It doesn't bother me, i have no issues with having one. As a critical care paramedic, I see that i have a moral obligation to my patients to be as healthy as possible while i am taking care of them. Don't forget that Influenza can be transmitted while asymptomatic, so in effect i could be spreading the infection to my patients and other staff, before i even have any clue that i am ill. They are already sick enough without me adding to their complications.
  • arthurdentarthurdent Posts: 969
    It doesn't bother me, i have no issues with having one. As a critical care paramedic, I see that i have a moral obligation to my patients to be as healthy as possible while i am taking care of them. Don't forget that Influenza can be transmitted while asymptomatic, so in effect i could be spreading the infection to my patients and other staff, before i even have any clue that i am ill. They are already sick enough without me adding to their complications.

    +1
    Rock me Jesus, roll me Lord...
    Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
  • Shit like this is why I think forced vaccinations are a bad idea.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... erica.html
  • ClaireackClaireack Posts: 13,561
    As I understand it the flu vaccine is only effective on the particular flu they are guessing at being around this year.

    As a health care worker I get offered it every year but haven't had it yet.

    Not sure about the swine flu vaccine, it's going to be really pushed come October when they are expecting there to be a big wave of it. I already know people who have been told they have swine flu and given Tamiflu, which is perculiar as they didn't see a doctor and weren't tested.

    I am always a bit wary about vaccinations as I was really ill as I child following them. But it's a tough one, when my son was small I tried to prevent him from having the MMR jab due to the autism concerns. I felt I was bullied and pressurised into getting it with tales of death from the measles etc etc.

    Guess at some point I will have to decide what I'm going to do.
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    This topic was raised in my public health class yesterday by a nurse in an HIV clinic where some of the nurses under her supervision don't want to be vaccinated. The bottom line, however, is that when healthcare providers aren't vaccinated, they put their patients at risk. While an individual does have a right to refuse vaccination and take that risk for themselves, but they do not have a right to then make the decision to increase the risk of others by working with sick people.
  • scb wrote:
    This topic was raised in my public health class yesterday by a nurse in an HIV clinic where some of the nurses under her supervision don't want to be vaccinated. The bottom line, however, is that when healthcare providers aren't vaccinated, they put their patients at risk. While an individual does have a right to refuse vaccination and take that risk for themselves, but they do not have a right to then make the decision to increase the risk of others by working with sick people.

    You can't tell me that health care providers not getting a flu vaccine for what the supposed experts "guess" is going to be the correct strain of flu vaccine is putting their patients at risk. I do not believe it. I think there is just as much chance that the experts are wrong about the strain used in the vaccines as there is a health care provider who didn't get the vaccine putting someone at risk.
  • arthurdentarthurdent Posts: 969
    I do not believe it.

    And THAT is why you fail.


    Do you use a condom?
    Rock me Jesus, roll me Lord...
    Wash me in the blood of Rock & Roll
  • arthurdent wrote:
    I do not believe it.

    And THAT is why you fail.


    Do you use a condom?


    Wow, what excellent debating skills you have there!
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    scb wrote:
    This topic was raised in my public health class yesterday by a nurse in an HIV clinic where some of the nurses under her supervision don't want to be vaccinated. The bottom line, however, is that when healthcare providers aren't vaccinated, they put their patients at risk. While an individual does have a right to refuse vaccination and take that risk for themselves, but they do not have a right to then make the decision to increase the risk of others by working with sick people.

    You can't tell me that health care providers not getting a flu vaccine for what the supposed experts "guess" is going to be the correct strain of flu vaccine is putting their patients at risk. I do not believe it. I think there is just as much chance that the experts are wrong about the strain used in the vaccines as there is a health care provider who didn't get the vaccine putting someone at risk.

    Hell yeah, I can tell you that! Healthcare providers go around from one patient to another picking up and spreading all kinds of germs. Saying they shouldn't take precautions like getting vaccinated is like saying they shouldn't have to wash their hands. You can say all you want that handwashing sometimes doesn't work, but that doesn't change the fact that it lowers the overall risk.

    We know for a fact that it puts patients at risk when healthcare providers don't take precautions to not spread illness to their patients. That is a fact. If you don't believe it, I'd like to see you agree to be stuck with a dirty needle. To say that we shouldn't take these precautions merely because there's a chance that, on occassion, they might not work is totally unreasonable.

    Now, if someone has a personal argument about why they don't want to put these chemicals into their body, that at least has merit as an argument and I don't believe they should be forced to; but of course there will be consequences to that decision.
  • __ Posts: 6,651
    arthurdent wrote:
    I do not believe it.

    And THAT is why you fail.


    Do you use a condom?


    Wow, what excellent debating skills you have there!

    Actually, I think it really is an excellent analogy/question. Are you going to answer it?
  • scb wrote:
    scb wrote:
    This topic was raised in my public health class yesterday by a nurse in an HIV clinic where some of the nurses under her supervision don't want to be vaccinated. The bottom line, however, is that when healthcare providers aren't vaccinated, they put their patients at risk. While an individual does have a right to refuse vaccination and take that risk for themselves, but they do not have a right to then make the decision to increase the risk of others by working with sick people.

    You can't tell me that health care providers not getting a flu vaccine for what the supposed experts "guess" is going to be the correct strain of flu vaccine is putting their patients at risk. I do not believe it. I think there is just as much chance that the experts are wrong about the strain used in the vaccines as there is a health care provider who didn't get the vaccine putting someone at risk.

    Hell yeah, I can tell you that! Healthcare providers go around from one patient to another picking up and spreading all kinds of germs. Saying they shouldn't take precautions like getting vaccinated is like saying they shouldn't have to wash their hands. You can say all you want that handwashing sometimes doesn't work, but that doesn't change the fact that it lowers the overall risk.

    We know for a fact that it puts patients at risk when healthcare providers don't take precautions to not spread illness to their patients. That is a fact. If you don't believe it, I'd like to see you agree to be stuck with a dirty needle. To say that we shouldn't take these precautions merely because there's a chance that, on occassion, they might not work is totally unreasonable.

    Now, if someone has a personal argument about why they don't want to put these chemicals into their body, that at least has merit as an argument and I don't believe they should be forced to; but of course there will be consequences to that decision.

    You are assuming that the flu vaccine is actually going to be for the purported seasonal flu outbreak. The past several years they haven't quite gotten the correct strain down so, yeah, I don't see the need for making something mandatory that actually isn't 100% effective like many people try to make it seem.

    Here's an example for you: Up until this year, I would get the flu shot every fall just like a great majority of the people, and guess what? That's right, I would still get the flu. Two years ago it was pretty fucking bad too. I basically had to spend several nights in the bathroom next to the toilet. Another example: every year when we get the shots at work, some of the people request that they are done on a Monday simply for the fact that they know from past experience that they get sick from the shot and they don't like being sick over the weekend. A final example: I roomed with a guy who never would get the flu shot and claimed to never have had the flu since he was a child and I can say for certain he never had it the three years I lived with him despite me having it during that time.

    These examples are just several that bring to light the fact that not every single person is the same and forcing vaccines for everyone is too broad a stroke to be painted and that includes health care professionals in my opinion.
  • scb wrote:

    Actually, I think it really is an excellent analogy/question. Are you going to answer it?

    No I am not going to answer it. I don't think it is an excellent analogy/question.
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